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Author Topic: This "the prophet is off limits" is getting WAY out of hand!  (Read 6048 times) Average Rating: 0
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GiC
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« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2006, 11:06:51 AM »

And Christians are on the stupid BC pill chemically aborting  up to 8 months out of 12 every year. (ever read the insert on how those things really work?)  they are surgically aborting their offspring just as much as their secular counterparts.  And, they are considering childbearing to be a burden that removes all their fun in life.  Orthodox Christians are just as likely to have the same mindset.  I haven't met many that have more than 1 or 2 children, which basically just replaces one parent.  Protestant Christians have a greed nature just like their worldly counterparts, and don't want to have their bikini line ruined with stretchmarks. I know that one first hand, I got brutally attacked verbally all the time because my life made others uncomfortable.

The high use of birth control (and even abortion) is because our Culture has developed a respect for women and sees them as more than reproduction machines. Were we to reverse this cultural trend we would become no better than the moslems. We dont need to throw our Cultural developments back a 1000 years to combat Islam, we simply need to take the threat seriously and use the one great asset we do have, our military, to eradicate the islamic threat. It would take them hundreds of generations to 'out breed' us, but, if devoted, we could wipe them from the face of the earth in just a few generations. It is apathy and a desire for a false peace, not our failure to breed, that will eventually be our downfall.
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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2006, 02:45:37 PM »

GiC: You still have not explained why you think God gave free choice only to those who chose to be Christian, and why you think you are able to sentence people to death for making the wrong choice, with the freedom that God gave them. Your arguement is simplistic to the degree of being idiotic. Yes of course if we killed everyone else, we would have 'won' in a sense. (Although we may have caused our eternal condemnation in the process). However does this mean it is right for us to do this? Why? - You don't like Muslims because you think too many of them are agressive, however you won't find many Muslims talking about wiping Christians off the face of the earth, as you so about them - so in what way are you even different from them, let alone 'better'?
I think it's about time you stopped your ill thought out, childish and offensive rants on this issue.
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GiC
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2006, 05:34:10 PM »

GiC: You still have not explained why you think God gave free choice only to those who chose to be Christian, and why you think you are able to sentence people to death for making the wrong choice, with the freedom that God gave them.

God gave free choice to everyone to either serve or reject him; however, he also gave nations and peoples the right to defend themselves against clear and present threats; and there is no more clear a threat to the west than Islam. Decisions have consequences and if you make a decision that is threatening to the Western world, it is perfectly reasonable that you will have to defend yourself from those seeking self-preservation.

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Your arguement is simplistic to the degree of being idiotic.

It seems to me to be simplistic to the degree of being self-evident...unfortunately, though everyone sees the problem, the bleeding hearts would rather undermine our very civilization than do what everyone knows needs to be done.

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Yes of course if we killed everyone else, we would have 'won' in a sense.

Well, that's one approach, and in this Nuclear Age it's probably a feasible one as well. Of course, that is not the solution to this problem that I have advocated, as I'm sure you are aware from past discussions on the matter. While I will admit that to enact the solution that I propose there will be casualities on both sides, that is an inevitable part of war. However, I do not advocate genocide, even though a nuclear genocide would probably solve the problem with fewer American casualities I believe the eradication of Islam without the complete destruction of the Middle East would serve us better in the long run. So what do I advocate? Well, for what must be the tenth time, I suggest we invade and conquer Islamic countries, install military governments, and begin a propaganda campaign that will last a few generations to eradicate Islam. Forbid Islam, of course, shutting down their mosques and converting their cultural centres to other purposes, though not forbidding it under pain of death, rather under threat of financial hardship, exorborant taxes, disqualification from government programmes and aid, etc. We should also initiate programmes to destroy the Islamic culture and give women preferences in employment and government.  That should take care of all but the most radical Moslems. Also, we must realize that the future is in the Children, so take the Children from their parents at a young age, educate them in a secular (or anything non-moslem) school, and teach them to mock and despise Islam. The only people we would have to kill are terrorists and those who harbour them. And, in the end, this solution I propose would be a far greater victory than simply killing our enemy, for we would have ultimately reformed them in our own image.

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(Although we may have caused our eternal condemnation in the process).

I'll take the risk.

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However does this mean it is right for us to do this? Why?

Because we have an inherent right to self-defence.

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You don't like Muslims because you think too many of them are agressive,

That's part of it, but only a small part. The fact that they are agressive AND threat to western civilization if of greater concern.

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however you won't find many Muslims talking about wiping Christians off the face of the earth,

You sure about that? You have heard the rhetoric comming out of Iran lately haven't you? And one thing I can say with considerable certainty is that you will hear many moslems saying such things in relation to the Jews.

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as you so about them - so in what way are you even different from them, let alone 'better'?

I am better than them because I stand to protect a superior culture, society, and way of life .

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I think it's about time you stopped your ill thought out, childish and offensive rants on this issue.

The threat of Islam will only grow, regardless of whether I vocally oppose it or not. And as it grows more and more people will realise the fundamental threat Islam poses and will demand action against this threat; people will demand that we secure ourselves, our society, our civilization against this threat. It's either us or them, there can be not middle ground, all that I am saying is that if we are not the first to strike, we will be the first struck.
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calligraphqueen
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« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2006, 09:36:05 AM »

The high use of birth control (and even abortion) is because our Culture has developed a respect for women and sees them as more than reproduction machines.

This is categorically untrue.  Birth control today was created by men, and it enabled them to fulfill their lusts without fear of a pregnancy (and ensuing responsibility) to cramp their style. It increases risks of bloodclots, hemorrhage, and hormonal problems because its messing with our already functioning systems.  And it's 3-4 "fail-safe" fall back mechanisms are designed to do WHATEVER it takes to prevent implantation of an already living zygote.  That's respect?  Our culture has no respect for women.  We objectify them, we demand large bosoms and scrawnier bodies, we plaster their bodies on screen with little to cover them just for titillation.  
BC has be used historically, but mainly by pagans.  It's been around for centuries in one form or another.  Prostitutes and roman women were well versed in it's use.  Now women today can enable themselves to be used sexually and experience sex separated from responsibility as well.  Wow, what an advancement!

I have lived as a woman, which means to live as prey.  don't tell me how we respect women now.  And I am most certainly NOT a breeding machine any more than the Theotokos was!  How foul!

The entire point was that muslims here aren't using BC because, for the time being they can't blow us all away.  We are still to strong. I have seen this mentioned by them, though it's not reported on ABC news at night.  BC is not used in the islamic faith because it's considered vile.  It USED to be considered vile in the Orthodox faith, but most O's don't take that part seriously.
Funny how much you guys "respect" Pamela Anderson and not just somebodies mommy in the grocery store.  How will O's change the world or even effect it when we look at children as a burden and those that have them as "breeding machines"
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GiC
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« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2006, 12:04:39 PM »

This is categorically untrue.  Birth control today was created by men, and it enabled them to fulfill their lusts without fear of a pregnancy (and ensuing responsibility) to cramp their style.

While it may help some men avoid a few headaches, it is ultimately the woman's choice to take birth control and will ultimately be of the most benifit to her; there can be little argument about the fact that the woman is affected by a pregnancy to a far greater degree than the man.

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It increases risks of bloodclots, hemorrhage, and hormonal problems because its messing with our already functioning systems.

Ultimately side effects are rather limited and only manifest themselves in a small percentage of those who take the prescription; no medicine is perfect, but what they all have in common is that the benifits far outweigh the risks. As the old DuPont slogan used to say 'Better living through Chemistry.'

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Our culture has no respect for women.  We objectify them, we demand large bosoms and scrawnier bodies, we plaster their bodies on screen with little to cover them just for titillation.

No culture is perfect, we are sexual beings after all, it is the urge to made that allowed our species (and every species that today exists) to survive, grow, and develop through hundreds of millions of years of evolution, reproduction is the most ancient of biological imperative and hence the desire to mate could be rather difficult to completely overcome. However, while society has presented its ideal of beauty it does not ostracized or legally punish those who do not meet this physical ideal (which is the overwhelming majority of the population), though it appears that in your Sharia Law-based Dystopia those who are not like you and disagree with your social posistions would be ostracized and perhaps even punished by the law.

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BC has be used historically, but mainly by pagans.  It's been around for centuries in one form or another.

There was a time when you could have said that about indoor plumbing...Bring Back the Outhouse, the Symbol of Orthodoxy!!! Roll Eyes

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Prostitutes and roman women were well versed in it's use.  Now women today can enable themselves to be used sexually and experience sex separated from responsibility as well.  Wow, what an advancement!

YES, it is an advancement, traditionally only men could (and often did) engage in sexual experiences without consequences, birth control has leveled the playing field. That doesn't make indiscriminate sexual intercourse right or good but it does make things equal and fair so that one gender does not have to bear disproportionate consequences for the act.

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BC is not used in the islamic faith because it's considered vile.  It USED to be considered vile in the Orthodox faith, but most O's don't take that part seriously.

Our culture seems to have advanced while there's is still stuck in the middle ages; a return to their primitive and barbaric thought would benifit nobody. You are not suggesting we overcome Islam, you're essentially suggesting that we become Islamic.

{aside}
Is it that difficult to type out 'Birth Control' or 'Orthodox'? Or you could even hit a few more keys and give your statements some rhetorical flare; about 25% of a good argument is made by the content, perhaps even less, 75% or more comes from the style in which it is presented. Just some advice, take it or leave it. However, with that said, I do like the word choice of 'vile.'
{/aside}

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Funny how much you guys "respect" Pamela Anderson and not just somebodies mommy in the grocery store.

You seem to have this obsession with media culture, which tends to demean anything it touches, not only women. Of course that is now that I was refering to when pointing to the great advances of women, and accordingly the respect they have gained, in our society. Women today are doctors and lawyers, professors and entrepreneurs, and generals and admirals, they have obtained great success in politics including top congressional leadership and cabinet posistions in the US and even Prime Minister in the UK...frankly, I dont see this level of progress in the Islamic societies you seem to idolize.

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How will O's change the world or even effect it when we look at children as a burden and those that have them as "breeding machines"

Interesting how I am the one to disparage reproduction, yet you are the one who is approaching it as a strategic asset...you, the Moslems, and, everyone's favourite, Benito Mussolini. We dont need to turn reproduction into a strategic weapon, that's why we we have the UGM-133A Trident II which can release 8 little baby W88 Mark 5 425kt warheads with first-strike accuracy. One of these Trident D5's along with her children W88's can neutralize about a thousand years of Moslem breeding, now THAT is Strategic Reproduction.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2006, 06:14:09 PM »

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It USED to be considered vile in the Orthodox faith, but most O's don't take that part seriously.

Surely not! There are a lot of old moral beliefs that Orthodoxy doesn't take seriously anymore, such as arranged marriages made primarily for worldly/political gain, blaming the mother for miscarriages and excommunicating her for a year, making a young man marry the girl he coerces into having sex with him, and so forth. How much exactly do you want to bring back, and how much do you want to leave off? I think the Orthodox are going in the right direction...
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« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2006, 11:03:23 AM »

God gave free choice to everyone to either serve or reject him; however, he also gave nations and peoples the right to defend themselves against clear and present threats; and there is no more clear a threat to the west than Islam. Decisions have consequences and if you make a decision that is threatening to the Western world, it is perfectly reasonable that you will have to defend yourself from those seeking self-preservation.

It seems to me to be simplistic to the degree of being self-evident...unfortunately, though everyone sees the problem, the bleeding hearts would rather undermine our very civilization than do what everyone knows needs to be done.

Well, that's one approach, and in this Nuclear Age it's probably a feasible one as well. Of course, that is not the solution to this problem that I have advocated, as I'm sure you are aware from past discussions on the matter. While I will admit that to enact the solution that I propose there will be casualities on both sides, that is an inevitable part of war. However, I do not advocate genocide, even though a nuclear genocide would probably solve the problem with fewer American casualities I believe the eradication of Islam without the complete destruction of the Middle East would serve us better in the long run. So what do I advocate? Well, for what must be the tenth time, I suggest we invade and conquer Islamic countries, install military governments, and begin a propaganda campaign that will last a few generations to eradicate Islam. Forbid Islam, of course, shutting down their mosques and converting their cultural centres to other purposes, though not forbidding it under pain of death, rather under threat of financial hardship, exorborant taxes, disqualification from government programmes and aid, etc. We should also initiate programmes to destroy the Islamic culture and give women preferences in employment and government.  That should take care of all but the most radical Moslems. Also, we must realize that the future is in the Children, so take the Children from their parents at a young age, educate them in a secular (or anything non-moslem) school, and teach them to mock and despise Islam. The only people we would have to kill are terrorists and those who harbour them. And, in the end, this solution I propose would be a far greater victory than simply killing our enemy, for we would have ultimately reformed them in our own image.

I'll take the risk.

Because we have an inherent right to self-defence.

That's part of it, but only a small part. The fact that they are agressive AND threat to western civilization if of greater concern.

You sure about that? You have heard the rhetoric comming out of Iran lately haven't you? And one thing I can say with considerable certainty is that you will hear many moslems saying such things in relation to the Jews.

I am better than them because I stand to protect a superior culture, society, and way of life .

The threat of Islam will only grow, regardless of whether I vocally oppose it or not. And as it grows more and more people will realise the fundamental threat Islam poses and will demand action against this threat; people will demand that we secure ourselves, our society, our civilization against this threat. It's either us or them, there can be not middle ground, all that I am saying is that if we are not the first to strike, we will be the first struck.

This is why so many people hate America. You don't understand what you're talking about, your arguements don't make sense, your 'solutions' are illogical and stupid and despite all of this you're under the illusion that you're really great, or that an American life is worth more than anyone else's. Well maybe in is in financial terms, especially if you run a McDonalds, but I don't think God puts the same value to life as Mc Donalds somehow.
To address, once more, some of your more idiotic of points, before I stop wasting my time:
Just because you think something is a threat and just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.
Neither 'Self-preservation' nor 'self-defense' have anything to with invading a load of countries, banning their faith steeling their children away from them, and killing anyone who rises up against these kind of hostile actions. Who would put up with another country doing this to them? - Nobody, you would create more terrorists and more force than you ever thought possible.
Leaving someone else alone and minding your own business undermines nothing. You should try it some time.
Have YOU heard rhetoric coming out of Iran? From whom? The media's job is to make things more interesting than they really are to make money, not to tell the truth. Iran is saying leave us alone, we want nuclear power. It's not that scary is it? Or are you confused because a country is trying to use LESS fossil fuel and waste LESS energy?
Why do you consider yourself at risk of being the 'first struck', you're too late for this. Muslims who hold a grudge against Jews usually do so because of the situation in Israel, where some of their land was taken and given back to the Jews, then the Jews invaded the Palestinian lands a few times and got more and more of their land. OF COURSE they're a bit annoyed about how their muslim brothers have been treated. Especially when because the Jewish vote is so powerful in America, Israel never gets told off for what they've done wrong, and the Palestinians feel persecuted. So how would persecuting them some MORE help the situation?

{aside
If you're going to tell someone how to argue, you should be good at it yourself, try not confusing there with their, for example. Also you could try making some sense. Maybe YOU base only 25% of your opinion on the facts (and it shows, in fact, I'd think 25% seems rather high for you) but most people are capable of having a considered opinion based entirely upon the facts of the matter and the evidence.
aside}
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calligraphqueen
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« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2006, 11:32:51 AM »

I am hardly suggesting that we live in Sharia like society.  I AM suggesting we give more respect to women that have given of themselves to bring forth life rather than sleeping their way to the top of some corporation.  Is this really even a comparison of women's roles from a Godly perspective?
If you saw yourselves as created in the image of God rather than slowly oozing from slime into slime with legs, then you could see that God isn't all that interested in a woman's desire to be president of "Globodyne"  Think in terms of the bigger picture.  He isnt' concerned all that much with men or women's career climb, He's interested in what they did in this life for HIM.

Somehow the fact that I believe motherhood is a sacrificial pursuit makes me a throwback to Edwardian times (at least) Good think Mary didn't think of it in such lowly terms. Intelligent people know the chemical concoctions they they put into their temples.  It's always wise to know the side effects of anything, needed or wanted, that we swallow or inject into ourselves.  And BIRTH CONTROL effects every women eventually.  I know several women that have had early cancer scares only to find out they were only supposed to have been on the pills a max of 5 years. No one bothered to tell them that in the beginning.
I am not suggesting muslims have it right at all.  But if at any point chemical BIRTH CONTROL prevents a living being from being born, then it's simply murder for convenience. Same as surgical abortion is.   We can't pick and choose our terms, and then sugar coat the uncomfortable ones.  Sure, if a woman is going to sleep around to get where she wants to be in life, those little pills sure are handy.  And since they are so readily accepted in society she has not moral qualms about how they work.

Not sure how many you have taken, or if you have read the inserts, the background of their invention and deposit into mainstream America.  Interesting read really.  My own mother nearly died from the first release of the things to the general public.  Many women did die.  
It's all too easy to believe that we are just lowly animals, then we can behave like them.
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« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2006, 01:29:29 PM »

Calli, in your arguement for motherhood you seem to be employing a lot of unecessary insults. hy do you assume women who work sleep around to get to the top? Many women work so that they can afford children, and are ambitious (and hard working) so that they can better provide for their children. Is it better to be lazy and never work and have 20 children you can't afford, so they starve to death or the family has to live off of benefits? That's not fair for the family or the taxpayers. I'm NOT advocating the pill here, don't get me wrong, I'm just saying stop woman bashing, having a job is not a sin!
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« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2006, 03:37:29 PM »

Of course having a job isn't wrong, whether a lady works from home or out in the job market.  That wasn't the point of the previous conversation.  I do get a lot of flack for having any children at all, let alone the number that I do.  Like I checked my brain at the door of maternity ward or something. There is always that catfight between SAHM and Working MOms, and in truth I do find a lot of selfishness in their arguments a lot of the time.  But not always.  The whole career feminist mantra gets under my skin, it doesn't line up with Scripture or church Fathers anyway.  
I personally think our society has it all backwards as far as priorities.  But that said, I was a single mother working and going to school not too long ago.  BTDT.  I am not denigrating working in general, so you know.  And trust me, I work constantly and would sometimes LOVE to have cut and defined hours to clock out and be done.  I envy my husband in that area. Wink

Please forgive any offenses.
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« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2006, 05:38:36 PM »

This is why so many people hate America. You don't understand what you're talking about, your arguements don't make sense, your 'solutions' are illogical and stupid and despite all of this you're under the illusion that you're really great, or that an American life is worth more than anyone else's. Well maybe in is in financial terms, especially if you run a McDonalds, but I don't think God puts the same value to life as Mc Donalds somehow.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is the duty of EVERY Country to put the well-being of their own Citizens over the well-being of other nations and their citizens. And I would even take it a step further and say that we have a responsibility (as does every nation) to value their allies, and their allies citizens, more than non-allied nations.

Quote
To address, once more, some of your more idiotic of points, before I stop wasting my time:
Just because you think something is a threat and just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.
Neither 'Self-preservation' nor 'self-defense' have anything to with invading a load of countries, banning their faith steeling their children away from them, and killing anyone who rises up against these kind of hostile actions.

You are most certainly right, which is why the United States should have openly condemned and broke off trade relations with the evil British when they declared war on Germany, who had not only not invaded Britain but had also made overtures for peace on many occasions, even after the clearly unjustified British declaration of war; heck, the fact that we didn't declare war on Great Britain after such a stunt is clear evidence of the decadence of the American nation. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes ...You dont have to wait until you're invaded or attacked to perceive that there is a threat to the well-being of your nation and, accordingly, to have the inherent right to strike in self-defence. Or would you have had the British Government wait until German Panzers were rolling down Downing Street before responding to the German threat? Sprechen Sie Deutsches? You would, had the British government followed your foreign policy.

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Who would put up with another country doing this to them? - Nobody, you would create more terrorists and more force than you ever thought possible.

Resistance is expected, but that's what our military is for.

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Leaving someone else alone and minding your own business undermines nothing. You should try it some time.
Have YOU heard rhetoric coming out of Iran? From whom? The media's job is to make things more interesting than they really are to make money, not to tell the truth.

Well, let's look at some quotes I dug up from everyone's favourite radical, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad:

'There is no doubt that the new wave of attacks in Palestine will wipe off this stigma from the face of the Islamic world. Anybody who recognises Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nations' fury [and] is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world.'
[Hmmmm...we recognize Israel...but surely Iran would never want to hurt the United States]

'As the imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.'
[now that's not a threatening statement, threatening to wipe America's primary middle eastern ally off the map...and you think we should let this guy develop the means to create nuclear weapons?]

'The wave of the Islamic revolution will soon reach the entire world.'
[Could there be a clearer statement about the hostile intentions of Islam in general and Iran in particular?]

'Iran is ready to transfer nuclear know-how to the Islamic countries due to their need.'
[In the light of the previous statements, I dont think so...this goal must be stopped at ALL costs)

...perhaps you'd like to find a few quotes where President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad speaks of an era of peace and prosperity between Iran, Israel, and the United States...good luck.

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Iran is saying leave us alone, we want nuclear power. It's not that scary is it? Or are you confused because a country is trying to use LESS fossil fuel and waste LESS energy?

No, what Iran is saying is that we demand that the means to make nuclear weapons (the west offered to help subsidize the development of these nuclear power plants, provided they were located in Russia and the power sent down to Iran...interestingly Iran rejected this offer that would have saved them billions) AND that they want to wipe a close American ally off the map AND begin a world-wide Islamic revolution.

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Why do you consider yourself at risk of being the 'first struck', you're too late for this. Muslims who hold a grudge against Jews usually do so because of the situation in Israel, where some of their land was taken and given back to the Jews, then the Jews invaded the Palestinian lands a few times and got more and more of their land.

Correction, a Colony of the British Crown (which was not taken from the Palestinians but rather taken from the Ottomans, who took it from the Arabs, who took it from the Empire) was given to the Jews...no one took anything from the Palestinians.

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Especially when because the Jewish vote is so powerful in America,

From where, exactly, are you getting your news? Neo-Nazi Conspiracy Theorist websites? You wouldn't happen to be a member of the BNP would you? (of course they think Labour is controlled by Jews as well...heck, they'd probably say the same thing about the Conservatives and Liberals if pressed)

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Israel never gets told off for what they've done wrong, and the Palestinians feel persecuted. So how would persecuting them some MORE help the situation?

The situation would be improved by removing Islam and the Islamic world view from the map...which is exactly what I have proposed. Of course, it is not easy to eliminate a world-view held by 1.3 billion people, so naturally some of my suggestions may sound a bit harsh, though I have chosen to advocate the most humanitarian of the two methods I of which I can think, but I'm open to different methods of destroying Islam if you have and effective one to present.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 05:39:16 PM by greekischristian » Logged

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GiC
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« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2006, 07:25:51 PM »

I am hardly suggesting that we live in Sharia like society.  I AM suggesting we give more respect to women that have given of themselves to bring forth life rather than sleeping their way to the top of some corporation.  Is this really even a comparison of women's roles from a Godly perspective?

I believe men and women should be free to choose whatever path they wish, while you would force them down predetermined paths that fit only with your (rather outdated) philosophy.

Quote
If you saw yourselves as created in the image of God rather than slowly oozing from slime into slime with legs, then you could see that God isn't all that interested in a woman's desire to be president of "Globodyne"

First, I do not see the Orthodox Theological understanding of Man and his relatinship to God to be at odds with the well-established Theory of Evolution.

Secondly, though I do not know what 'Globodyne' is, I am presuming it is a company; if that is the case, I really dont see why God could not be glorified by a woman having a successful career and becoming a captain of industry.

I fear there is more to both life and marriage than procreation; infact if we read St. John Chrysostom, he explicitly states that procreation isn't even a valid reason for marriage; he basically says that the only reason for marriage is to allow sex in a legitimate context to prevent those involved from falling into the sin of fornication (On Virginity, Chapters 18 and 19). It would seem to me that the use of birth control could quite nicely fit into this clearly patristic understanding of procreation and marriage.

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Think in terms of the bigger picture.  He isnt' concerned all that much with men or women's career climb, He's interested in what they did in this life for HIM.

Then you'll be happy to know that I support the Ordination of Women to the Priesthood in the Orthodox Church.

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Intelligent people know the chemical concoctions they they put into their temples.  It's always wise to know the side effects of anything, needed or wanted, that we swallow or inject into ourselves.  And BIRTH CONTROL effects every women eventually.  I know several women that have had early cancer scares only to find out they were only supposed to have been on the pills a max of 5 years. No one bothered to tell them that in the beginning.

Prescription medications can have side effects...so what? Everything we do involves a risk, even driving a car carries with it a considerable risk (probably a greater risk than birth control), but taking a risks here and there to improve your standard of living is what makes life worth living.

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I am not suggesting muslims have it right at all.

No, you just seem to be upholding their social structure as an icon of perfection.

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But if at any point chemical BIRTH CONTROL prevents a living being from being born, then it's simply murder for convenience. Same as surgical abortion is. ÂÂ  We can't pick and choose our terms, and then sugar coat the uncomfortable ones. ÂÂ Sure, if a woman is going to sleep around to get where she wants to be in life, those little pills sure are handy. ÂÂ And since they are so readily accepted in society she has not moral qualms about how they work.

Birth control works by increasing the levels of natural and already existing hormones, which prevents ovulation and, accordingly, ensuring that there is no egg to fertilize. There is a small chance of failure, in this case there may be a chance that the elevated hormone levels will prevent the fertilized egg from implanting uterine wall (though the effects of the increased hormones may actually be negligible at this level, for doses required for emergency contraception are generally 8-10 times higher than the daily dose of most modern birth control pills). Of course the exact effects are unknown as this is rather difficult to measure, especially considering the low failure rate of birth control and the fact that that as many as 50% of all pregnancies will end in a (generally undetected) miscarriage at this stage anyway.

Of course, all this talk about various medical hypotheses isn't really relevant to the subject at hand, because these are simply potential side effects IF the medication fails in what it's designed for, the prevention of ovulation. The fact that the medicine is not perfect and without potential for failure or side-effects really isn't relevant for this is the case with ALL medicines. If a blood pressure pill carries with it the chance for kidney failure in a small percentage of the population would you argue that it too should be banned?

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Not sure how many you have taken,

Well, none...seeing how I have no desire for a sex change I really don't need to be taking female hormones.

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or if you have read the inserts, the background of their invention and deposit into mainstream America.  Interesting read really.

I've read a fair amount for the purpose of past debates on this very issue. I may believe that the primary value of an argument is in its style, but that doesn't mean I don't learn the facts.

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My own mother nearly died from the first release of the things to the general public.  Many women did die. ÂÂ

As I said before, there are risks with many things...there is a sizable risk taken when you get in an automobile. But we take risks to improve our lives, nearly all social revolutions and upheavals are dangerous and bloody affairs, though the great advances of feminism over the last century have fortunately been far more peaceful, the introduction of contraceptives was a great victory in this battle for social equality and, objectively speaking, the victory far outweighed the costs.

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It's all too easy to believe that we are just lowly animals, then we can behave like them.

You do know that there are uses for birth control other than making it easy to commit fornication? Perhaps a married couple that is not in a posistion to have children will take them within the context of marraige, which, considering what Chrysostom in the aforementioned treatise, shouldn't be an issue since sex is far more important than procreation in marriage.
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« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2006, 09:09:24 AM »

"I believe men and women should be free to choose whatever path they wish, while you would force them down predetermined paths that fit only with your (rather outdated) philosophy.

First, I do not see the Orthodox Theological understanding of Man and his relatinship to God to be at odds with the well-established Theory of Evolution."


GC,
We are going to have to agree to disagree here.  My philosophy only seems outdated to people to those that want to live life according to whatever society says is current.  I am just not concerned with current thinking, as it's become more depraved in the last several decades. And I haven't even had my 20 year reunion for high school, so I am not too old to see it.  But God is the same yesterday, today and forever.  I can't think of one woman in scripture that was honored for being the head of some multinational corporation or head of government.  There have certainly been women in those positions, and God can use anyone in any position he placed them in. I just don't define a woman by being just like a man.  Our career is but a tool we use to accomplish our tasks in life.  Same goes for men there, but society has deemed that men are defined by what career they have.  So fathers lose track of their children while working their lives away.  we as women have defined roles, just as men do.  We have to try to fulfill our calling without abandoning those roles or rewriting them for our comfort level.

And as far as the common theories of evolution, we will have to disagree there as well. ÂÂ There is a current theory that it's perfectly artistic to pose for Hustler as well. ÂÂ Or a common theory that sex is to be experienced with anyone and everyone you wish. ÂÂ There are lots of theories, usually in total defiance of Godly laws and statutes. Evolutionary theories are just something mankind made up to self-deify. ÂÂ  It's utterly grotesque to me even if academicianst run to it like pigs to ÂÂ sop. ÂÂ But that is me, and I will stand accountable for me-not you.

Blessings
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« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2006, 10:08:33 AM »

We are going to have to agree to disagree here.  My philosophy only seems outdated to people to those that want to live life according to whatever society says is current.  I am just not concerned with current thinking, as it's become more depraved in the last several decades. And I haven't even had my 20 year reunion for high school, so I am not too old to see it.  But God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Oh, I agree that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and, accordingly, I believe any philosophy that undermines the equality of women and men and denies either equality in society is wrong, it was wrong yesterday, it is wrong today, and it will be wrong tomorrown, in an absolute sense; however, I will allow that those who practiced or advocated such philosophies out of ignornace  in past ages did not sin by doing so, for they could not reasonably be expected to know otherwise, but today nobody has any excuse.

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I can't think of one woman in scripture that was honored for being the head of some multinational corporation...

That's because there were not multi-national corporations, they were a bunch of goat herders, their society and economy had so little in common with ours it's not even comparable. And it was far from perfect, thus we see Christ attacking various cultural norms that were well-established traditions amongst the Jews, but contrary to the teaching of His Gospel.

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And as far as the common theories of evolution, we will have to disagree there as well.  There is a current theory that it's perfectly artistic to pose for Hustler as well.  Or a common theory that sex is to be experienced with anyone and everyone you wish.  There are lots of theories, usually in total defiance of Godly laws and statutes.

O.K....I really dont have time to go into what a theory is, but let's just say that your above mentioned examples are NOT scientific theories, heck, they're not even scientific hypotheses; I fear your argument is a complete non sequitur.

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Evolutionary theories are just something mankind made up to self-deify. ÂÂ  It's utterly grotesque to me even if academicianst run to it like pigs to ÂÂ sop. ÂÂ But that is me, and I will stand accountable for me-not you.

Evolution is a well established scientific fact (though I use the term lightly, as someone trained in theoretical mathematics I do realize that, objectively speaking, there is no such thing as a true fact...but that's a discussion for another day), evolution has produced tangable results in biology, biochemistry, computer science, pharmaceuticals, and medicine...regardless of what you think of it, the fact of the matter is that it works. Furthermore, I seriously doubt that you're actually qualified or capable of objectively assessing the theory (though I must admit, while I have spend a fair amount of time studying various elements of evolutionary theory, I'm not really qualified on that front either, though I have come to realize the overwhelming amount of data and evidence in support of the theory, so much that I do not see how any reasonable person who has spent any time studying even part of the theory could possibly dismiss it)
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« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2006, 04:19:11 PM »



Then you'll be happy to know that I support the Ordination of Women to the Priesthood in the Orthodox Church.


GIC:

If what you said above is true, then you are not Orthodox, but, rather, a liberal Protestant.
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« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2006, 04:22:30 PM »

GIC:

If what you said above is true, then you are not Orthodox, but, rather, a liberal Protestant.

But if I was a liberal protestant rather than an Orthodox Christian, would I not be concerned with the ordination of women in the protestant churches rather than in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2006, 04:25:14 PM »

But if I was a liberal protestant rather than an Orthodox Christian, would I not be concerned with the ordination of women in the protestant churches rather than in the Orthodox Church?

But you are not...unless you have been lying to us all this time.
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« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2006, 04:31:08 PM »

But you are not...unless you have been lying to us all this time.

No, I haven't played devil's advocate on this issue yet...though I did change my posistion from an opposistion to the ordination of women for practical reasons to a supporting of the ordination of women on account of theological reasons about six months ago, after assessing my pragmatic argument as unacceptably weak.

The issue hasn't come up too much, but I do believe I was engaged in one debate on the subject matter.
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« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2006, 04:32:42 PM »

Even a cursory glance at how the ordination of women has ripped apart every church body where it has been introduced should be enough of a warning to us to stay away from it.

There is no foundation for it in Scripture, or the Tradition of the Church, as you must be well aware.

To dissent publicly from the teaching of the Church makes anyone a Protestant, by definition.
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« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2006, 05:03:30 PM »

In his article 'Man, Woman and the Priesthood of Christ' His Grace Bishop Kallistos Ware states, 'One point deserves to be underlined at the outset. On the subject of women and the priesthood, there exists as yet no pan-Orthodox statement, posessing definitive ecumenical authority' (the emphasis is His Grace's, not mine)...considering his posistion as both a Bishop and well respected theologian of the Church, such a statement is quite telling; and essentially undermines your appeal to authority argument.

Also, I would strongly recommend the above article, for while His Grace is unwilling to openly advocate for the immediate ordination of women, he does essentially dismiss all the arguments against the Ordination of Women (all of which are quire weak), but cautions that prudence and objectivity should be used in moving forward on the issue.
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« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2006, 05:04:13 PM »

I can't think of one woman in scripture that was honored for being the head of some multinational corporation or head of government.

Well, that would be an anachronism since there weren't any men heading "multinational corporations" as we have now. And as to head of government how many of those were there either? So how can this apply?  How many men are honoured in the Bible for the things you mentioned?

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 There have certainly been women in those positions, and God can use anyone in any position he placed them in. I just don't define a woman by being just like a man. ÂÂ

"Just like a man" in what way please?  What functions are you thinking of as specifically male or female beyond a very few (pregnancy for example.)

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Our career is but a tool we use to accomplish our tasks in life.  Same goes for men there, but society has deemed that men are defined by what career they have.  So fathers lose track of their children while working their lives away.  we as women have defined roles, just as men do.  We have to try to fulfill our calling without abandoning those roles or rewriting them for our comfort level.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you on the idea of "women".  There is no "women" as a class. There are billions of individuals with diferent gifts and callings. (There is also not "Society" but many 'societies' depending on time and country, but that's another topic maybe)  Admiral Grace Hopper was good at mathematics and instrumental in early computer languages and education.  How was she not following *her* calling by not having children?  What "defines" the roles you think of as proper for women please?

You wrote that a "career is but a tool we use to accomplish our tasks in life".  And what about people using the gifts and interests and talents that God gave them? What if the "career" is the main task in life?  Why could it not be that God intended one woman to do an important piece of medical research, or surgery or writing or other work.  There have been many who do that and have had children.  

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And as far as the common theories of evolution, we will have to disagree there as well. ÂÂ There is a current theory that it's perfectly artistic to pose for Hustler as well. ÂÂ Or a common theory that sex is to be experienced with anyone and everyone you wish. ÂÂ There are lots of theories, usually in total defiance of Godly laws and statutes. Evolutionary theories are just something mankind made up to self-deify. ÂÂ  It's utterly grotesque to me even if academicianst run to it like pigs to ÂÂ sop. ÂÂ But that is me, and I will stand accountable for me-not you.

This is not using "Theory" to mean the same things.  The "Theory of Evolution" is a scientific hypothesis and is based on acquired and interpreted hard data.  The other "theories" you write of are opinions for something someone likes/wants.  

One might consider that God might have *used* evolutionary processes to make everything?

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« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2006, 05:07:01 PM »

No, I haven't played devil's advocate on this issue yet...though I did change my posistion from an opposistion to the ordination of women for practical reasons to a supporting of the ordination of women on account of theological reasons about six months ago, after assessing my pragmatic argument as unacceptably weak.

The issue hasn't come up too much, but I do believe I was engaged in one debate on the subject matter.

Intriguing. Would it be possible for you to tell us the lines of thought that you went though in this change please?  If you prefer to not say in public, I apoligize for asking.  But it is interesting to read that such an occurance happened.

Ebor
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« Reply #67 on: April 26, 2006, 05:30:59 PM »

Intriguing. Would it be possible for you to tell us the lines of thought that you went though in this change please?  If you prefer to not say in public, I apoligize for asking.  But it is interesting to read that such an occurance happened.

Well, at the time I was convinced of the weakness of the theological arguments against the Ordination of Women (I mean the theological arguments against it really are quite weak as most theologians, regardless of what side of the issue they take, will admit) and, thus, to me the issue came down to one thing: it is the responsibility of the Church to see the salvation of souls and part of this is the prevention of unnecessary scandal. For quite a while I presumed that the Ordination of Women would create this 'unnecessary scandal' and for that reason should be avoided for the time being.

But as I time went on and I more closely assessed Modern Orthodox Cultures, especially Greece but also Russia to a degree, what I really began to notice is that the Church is becoming a joke to many in the younger generations (under 30); it is viewed as a socially out of touch institution that, if having any impact, is detrimental. With this objective look at Modern Orthodox Cultures I came to the conclusion that our failure to embrace egalitarian ideals has become a far greater and more dangerous scandal than our embracing of them would ever be. Does this mean the Ordination of Women is a magic bullet to solve all the problems with youth and the Church in Orthodox cultures? No, of course not, but it is certainly a start and would demonstrate that the Church is a living and growing institution, which while connected to the past and steeped in tradition is not enslaved by past cultures and customs.

Now, I'm not suggesting that we Ordain a woman and place her in a rural Greek village that is still dependent on horse-drawn transportation or a remote town in the desert of Syria. But the integration of women into the Ordained ministry would be appropriate at female monasteries as well as in certain communities in larger cities such as Athens that would be more receptive. Would there be some schism? Sure, but it would probably be comprable to the Old Calendarists movement, something of minimal concern, in the long run it would probably do far more good than damage in that it would help restore the confidence of many Orthodox Societies in the Church.

Now after this pragmatic realization I have come across and better developed some theological arguments, specifically anthropological, that compel me to accept the Ordination of Women on theological grounds (rather than being neutral from a theological perspective), but it was the practical side of the equation that convinced me to switch my posistion.
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« Reply #68 on: April 26, 2006, 05:58:06 PM »

I would not be comfortable with someone holding your views as my parish priest.
I would not be comfortable with someone holding your views anywhere in any position of responsibility in the Church.

His Grace, Bishop Kallistos is entitled to his opinion. That does not make it either correct, or a definitive word on the issue.

If such a deviation as this were introduced into the GOA today, we would witness a membership hemorrhage comparable to what the Episcopal church has experienced since 1976. That is something else than a "minor" schism such as that of the Old Calendarist movement.

If you wish that kind of division on the Church, then you must be mad.
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« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2006, 06:12:13 PM »

I would not be comfortable with someone holding your views as my parish priest.
I would not be comfortable with someone holding your views anywhere in any position of responsibility in the Church.

You're entitled to that posistion.

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His Grace, Bishop Kallistos is entitled to his opinion. That does not make it either correct, or a definitive word on the issue.

No, what he says is not definitive, but it does demonstrate a lack of consensus in the Church; contrary to what you were suggesting.

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If such a deviation as this were introduced into the GOA today, we would witness a membership hemorrhage comparable to what the Episcopal church has experienced since 1976. That is something else than a "minor" schism such as that of the Old Calendarist movement.

If you wish that kind of division on the Church, then you must be mad.

I disagree, I dont believe that the overwhelming majority the faithful in our Archdiocese would even know about the ordination of women for quite a while and when they did find out they wouldn't be all that concerned. This kinda reminds me of a discussion a friend of mine (who was recently ordained, AXIOS) had with his father. My friend was talking to his father about his friends at seminary and told his father some of our names, his father replied by saying that the names did not sound Greek, my friend replied that we were not Greek, his father was quite surprised and said that he didn't know that non-Greeks could be priests in the Greek Church, my friend told him that yes, non-Greeks could be ordained, his father replied that he thought the idea of non-Greeks being priests was a bit strange but that it kinda made sense, no big deal. With the exception of a few radicals here and there I believe that would be the general response to the Ordination of Women; I'm even guessing that there may be a handful of communities in our Archdiocese that would be more open to a Woman Priest than to a non-Greek Priest.
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« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2006, 06:47:39 PM »

Correction, a Colony of the British Crown (which was not taken from the Palestinians but rather taken from the Ottomans, who took it from the Arabs, who took it from the Empire) was given to the Jews...no one took anything from the Palestinians.

From where, exactly, are you getting your news? Neo-Nazi Conspiracy Theorist websites? You wouldn't happen to be a member of the BNP would you? (of course they think Labour is controlled by Jews as well...heck, they'd probably say the same thing about the Conservatives and Liberals if pressed)

The situation would be improved by removing Islam and the Islamic world view from the map...which is exactly what I have proposed. Of course, it is not easy to eliminate a world-view held by 1.3 billion people, so naturally some of my suggestions may sound a bit harsh, though I have chosen to advocate the most humanitarian of the two methods I of which I can think, but I'm open to different methods of destroying Islam if you have and effective one to present.

Thanks for this drivel, I printed it off. I am keeping a copy next to the toilet in case of emergencies.

Yes, the Iranian president is a bit mad, but Iran is not the only country to have it's president's intelligence questioned is it? As I explained lots of Muslims are agressive toward the west because of events they see all the time, where muslims are persecuted by the west and its allies. SURELY this is not so hard for you to understand?
Thanks for the 'correction' however I must point out one glaringly obvious flaw ...you're wrong. You think the land wasn't taken from the Palestinians, even though it was originally Arab land? Hm, and what would you class Palestinians as, please, if not Arabs?
Your insinuation that I am anti Jewish is ignorant, arrogant and offensive. I am simply pointing out that things are not fair in Israel, and I am suggesting a reasonable reason why the US, apart from having a few too many people of you level of 'inteligence' is always coming down on the wrong side, making things worse both there and the world over.
I don't know what the BNP think about Labour, it does not interest me, they are a bunch of racist idiots, I think you should make friends, if you're not already a member. However as YOU seem to be so interested in the BNP you may be interested to know that they are pro Israel rather than pro palestinian as they also feel threatened by islam. I think they would be impressed by your stance on Germany's part in WW2, also as you seem to be a little 'unfortunate', you'll fit right in.
In YOUR opinion the situation can be resolved by wiping islam off the map. In the president of Iran's opinion, it can be solved by wiping Israel and its allies off the map. Where's the difference? If you both have your way there'll be nobody left on the planet!
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« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2006, 07:04:21 PM »

I disagree, I dont believe that the overwhelming majority the faithful in our Archdiocese would even know about the ordination of women for quite a while and when they did find out they wouldn't be all that concerned. This kinda reminds me of a discussion a friend of mine (who was recently ordained, AXIOS) had with his father. My friend was talking to his father about his friends at seminary and told his father some of our names, his father replied by saying that the names did not sound Greek, my friend replied that we were not Greek, his father was quite surprised and said that he didn't know that non-Greeks could be priests in the Greek Church, my friend told him that yes, non-Greeks could be ordained, his father replied that he thought the idea of non-Greeks being priests was a bit strange but that it kinda made sense, no big deal. With the exception of a few radicals here and there I believe that would be the general response to the Ordination of Women; I'm even guessing that there may be a handful of communities in our Archdiocese that would be more open to a Woman Priest than to a non-Greek Priest.

This may be true, but if it happens, I can almost guarantee that the rest of the Orthodox world will excommunicate the whole Greek Archdiocese for allowing a bishop to ordain a woman priest.  The GOA just cannot act alone on this issue without affecting her communion with the rest of world Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2006, 07:35:04 PM »

This may be true, but if it happens, I can almost guarantee that the rest of the Orthodox world will excommunicate the whole Greek Archdiocese for allowing a bishop to ordain a woman priest.  The GOA just cannot act alone on this issue without affecting her communion with the rest of world Orthodoxy.

And I'm not suggesting that the GOA does do this, I believe the person who should preform the first ordination of a woman should be a Patriarch, preferably the patriarchate of Constantinople unless the political situation prohibits it, and even then only with a good basis of support amongst a few of the other Churches. But we're really getting ahead of ourselves, for the time being I'm simply arguing that the ordination of women would be benificial to the Church, there's a ways to go before we start working out the logistics of how to best implement the policy.
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