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Author Topic: This "the prophet is off limits" is getting WAY out of hand!  (Read 6175 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 14, 2006, 10:25:55 PM »

NEW YORK (AP) -- Banned by Comedy Central from showing an image of the Islamic prophet Mohammed, the creators of "South Park" skewered their own network for hypocrisy in the cartoon's most recent episode.

The comedy -- in an episode aired during Holy Week for Christians -- instead featured an image of Jesus Christ defecating on President Bush and the American flag.

Parker and Stone were angered when told by Comedy Central several weeks ago that they could not run an image of Mohammed, according to a person close to the show who didn't want to be identified because of the issue's sensitivity.

The network's decision was made over concerns for public safety, the person said.

Comedy Central said in a statement issued Thursday: "In light of recent world events, we feel we made the right decision." Its executives would not comment further.

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http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/TV/04/13/southpark.muhammad.ap/index.html
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2006, 12:12:07 AM »

There is a lot I could say, but I very much like their reasoning: "concerns for public safety." I wonder why everyone is so afraid of being more open about this real reason in public.
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2006, 12:19:48 AM »

In a way it is hypocritical on the part of Infantile Central*. However, on the other hand I sort of enjoy this. South Park makes their living off of offending people. It's nice to see them get the sharp edge every once in a while.


* Though I'll admit that the Daily Show and Colbert Report are pretty funny.
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2006, 12:21:42 AM »

Ummm….yeah….
Gee, that’s a great point made by Troy and Parker…..Defending our “God given right” to blaspheme…..
And what a wonderful way to get this obviously “un-self-serving” message of their's across- δefending their right to blaspheme Islam by blaspheming the God worshipped by the Christians……
I used to like South Park until Troy and Parker attempted to become social commentators and have since shown that they are intellectually challenged politically and socially.
In the same article, it says:
Quote
A frequent "South Park" critic, William Donohue of the anti-defamation group Catholic League, called on Parker and Stone to resign out of principle for being censored.
"The ultimate hypocrite is not Comedy Central -- that's their decision not to show the image of Mohammed or not -- it's Parker and Stone," he said. "Like little whores, they'll sit there and grab the bucks. They'll sit there and they'll whine and they'll take their shot at Jesus. That's their stock in trade."
I probably wouldn't have put it as tastelessly, but I agree with Donohue's sentiment here.
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2006, 09:04:08 AM »

Nothing should be off-limits for parody in a free society. Absolutely nothing.

Re: Statement by William Donohue

"In an interview with the Associated Press, William Donohue of the conservative Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights -- who totally didn't get the point -- went after Parker and Stone over the Jesus bit, but not Comedy Central"
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2006, 09:14:29 AM »

Nothing should be off-limits for parody in a free society. Absolutely nothing.

Including the Saviour?.......During Holy Week?......
Blasphemies will be forgiven, but it takes a man with no balls to blaspheme The Son of God during the week we commemorate His Suffering and Death for our Salvation. If you want to fightfor the right to have no balls, then go ahead. Wink
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2006, 09:33:34 AM »

And if our "right to free speech" is so much more sacred to us than the God we claim to worship, then isn't praying "Hallowed be Thy Name" yet more empty words in our "free society" which is already brimming with false smiles and lip-service?
"In God we trust- but we claim the inalienable right to treat Him like something we scrape off our shoe."
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2006, 09:59:31 AM »

I love South Park, those guys rule! They should have been given free reign to do whatever they wanted to do with the image of Mohammed. We don't live in Saudi Arabia, so who really cares as long as they make millions of us laugh.
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2006, 10:02:04 AM »

Freedom of Speech does not only include speech that we find tasteful. In fact, one's support for this freedom can be measured by how tolerant (and supportive of the right) they are of speech that they find most abhorrent. The true problem was the prohibition of the show with Mohammed, our freedom of speech is far more important and significant than any degree of safety, security, or world peace.
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2006, 10:09:05 AM »

our freedom of speech is far more important and significant than any degree of safety, security, or world peace.
.....or even our God apparently....
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2006, 10:16:16 AM »

.....or even our God apparently....

Yes. Because God gave us the right of Free Will. Whether we use it to our salvation or condemnation is each individuals personal choice. I would say that it is AGAINST God's will for us to forcefully impose it on others, but I have read the Old Testament - so I know that He has no problems ordering the slaughter of innocents.

The Old Testament God is the God of the Jews and the Islamics. As Christians we need to understand that we serve another God.
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2006, 10:31:49 AM »

As Christians we need to understand that we serve another God.
And exactly how does depicting Him as defecating on your President and Flag "serve Him"?
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2006, 10:39:52 AM »

And exactly how does depicting Him as defecating on your President and Flag "serve Him"?

Answer: It doesn't.
It merely serves the false idol of "free speech" which you have raised to a status higher than the Living God Whom you are prepared to blaspheme in serving your chosen "god" of "free speech".
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2006, 10:41:35 AM »

And exactly how does depicting Him as defecating on your President and Flag "serve Him"?

My point was speaking about followers of Christ, not about those who choose to not follow him. It is not our right to impose our beliefs on others.

It merely serves the false idol of "free speech" which you have raised to a status higher than the Living God Whom you are prepared to blaspheme in serving your chosen "god" of "free speech".

I guess my opinion is that when we are talking about religious beliefs, a free people should be able to ridicule beliefs.

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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2006, 10:45:12 AM »

I guess my opinion is that when we are talking about religious beliefs, a free people should be able to ridicule beliefs.

I know that's your opinion, but think about it Tom: by this definition, the only "free people" are the truly godless- those without a God.
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2006, 12:48:51 PM »

I think it's sad that people will show respect to Islam (even if it is entirely out of fear rather than true respect) but will not extend the same treatment to Christianity. Those people were aware this part of the cartoon was offensive. So offiensive that it put people's lives at risk, so what did they do, remove that part of the story? improve it? nope, they put Jesus Christ in the offensive role instead of Mohamed. Not to make it less offensive, it obviously doesn't, but just to save their own backsides.
This is really unacceptable, but what can we do about it without resorting to the kind of violence and flag burning that put them off insulting Islam?!
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« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2006, 01:10:16 PM »

I think it's sad that people will show respect to Islam (even if it is entirely out of fear rather than true respect) but will not extend the same treatment to Christianity. Those people were aware this part of the cartoon was offensive. So offiensive that it put people's lives at risk, so what did they do, remove that part of the story? improve it? nope, they put Jesus Christ in the offensive role instead of Mohamed. Not to make it less offensive, it obviously doesn't, but just to save their own backsides.
This is really unacceptable, but what can we do about it without resorting to the kind of violence and flag burning that put them off insulting Islam?!

The solution is to change the American mindset, to make Islam as hated in this Country as the West is in Islamic countries, once we engender such a hatred of Islam in the American Populace we should hopefully have sufficient popular support to begin a campaign for the unconditional eradication of Islam. The problem here is not free speech, it's Moslems, the solution to this problem is not restricting free speech, the solution is the total eradication of Islam by all means necessary.
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« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2006, 01:29:36 PM »

Those people were aware this part of the cartoon was offensive. So offiensive that it put people's lives at risk, so what did they do, remove that part of the story? improve it? nope, they put Jesus Christ in the offensive role instead of Mohamed. Not to make it less offensive, it obviously doesn't, but just to save their own backsides.

No, they did not use Jesus to "save their own backsides". They did it to show that there is a double standard.
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« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2006, 01:46:04 PM »

The solution is to change the American mindset, to make Islam as hated in this Country as the West is in Islamic countries, once we engender such a hatred of Islam in the American Populace we should hopefully have sufficient popular support to begin a campaign for the unconditional eradication of Islam. The problem here is not free speech, it's Moslems, the solution to this problem is not restricting free speech, the solution is the total eradication of Islam by all means necessary.

Hm, so you think the Christian solution is MORE hatred and LESS respect overall? Well, thanks for sharing, that's what free choice is all about. May I ask why you think free choice should only be extended to those who make choices similar to your own? That doesn't sound very free to me.
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« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2006, 01:47:29 PM »

No, they did not use Jesus to "save their own backsides". They did it to show that there is a double standard.
If this is actually the case, will they now withdraw that episode and not allow it to be aired ever again?
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« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2006, 01:57:41 PM »

Hm, so you think the Christian solution is MORE hatred and LESS respect overall?

Nothing inherently wrong with the hatred of evil and there has never, in the history of the world, been a purer form of Evil than Islam. Nothing is gained either by the respecting of either Islam or Moslems; it's either us or them, there is no room for compromise, there never has been and there never will be.

Quote
Well, thanks for sharing, that's what free choice is all about. May I ask why you think free choice should only be extended to those who make choices similar to your own? That doesn't sound very free to me.

Actually I am a strong supporter of our freedoms and liberties in this country and would oppose any attempt to restrict even the rights of Moslems who are Citizens of this Republic. However, these protections and rights do not extend beyond our boarders and we are perfectly within our rights to forbid Moslems from entering our lands and to wage relentless and total war against them wherever else they are to be found in the world.

Furthermore, I dont insist anyone hold views similar to me, I simply insist that they hold ANY view other than Islamic ones.
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« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2006, 01:59:18 PM »

Hm, so you think the Christian solution is MORE hatred and LESS respect overall? Well, thanks for sharing, that's what free choice is all about. May I ask why you think free choice should only be extended to those who make choices similar to your own? That doesn't sound very free to me.

Hatred of individuals is unChristian, but hatred of false beliefs is a Christian duty. The Church fathers used very harsh words in describing the early heresies, and strove to make their flocks rise up and erase every trace of anything that opposes orthodox Christianity. If you'll been around for a while, you'd know that GiC often makes the correct distinction between the two in his words against Islam.
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« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2006, 02:00:31 PM »

Double post. Please delete.
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2006, 02:23:55 PM »

Hatred of individuals is unChristian, but hatred of false beliefs is a Christian duty. The Church fathers used very harsh words in describing the early heresies, and strove to make their flocks rise up and erase every trace of anything that opposes orthodox Christianity. If you'll been around for a while, you'd know that GiC often makes the correct distinction between the two in his words against Islam.

No, I don't think that is the case; perhaps you have not read the post where GiC said that Moslem countries of 90% Moslem population should be carpet bombed because '90% of the time' we could be assured of hitting 'legitimate targets'?
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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2006, 02:27:50 PM »

Nothing inherently wrong with the hatred of evil and there has never, in the history of the world, been a purer form of Evil than Islam. Nothing is gained either by the respecting of either Islam or Moslems; it's either us or them, there is no room for compromise, there never has been and there never will be.

Actually I am a strong supporter of our freedoms and liberties in this country and would oppose any attempt to restrict even the rights of Moslems who are Citizens of this Republic. However, these protections and rights do not extend beyond our boarders and we are perfectly within our rights to forbid Moslems from entering our lands and to wage relentless and total war against them wherever else they are to be found in the world.

Furthermore, I dont insist anyone hold views similar to me, I simply insist that they hold ANY view other than Islamic ones.

No greater evil? How about Satanism? How about people who take enjoyment in killing or abuse of other people? Who are you to judge?
As to your second point, only Americans deserve free choice, it is offensive not to mention stupid.
And lastly who are you to insist anything of anyone else?
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2006, 02:46:16 PM »

No greater evil? How about Satanism? How about people who take enjoyment in killing or abuse of other people? Who are you to judge?

There is no greater evil than Islam, while things like Satanism may be Satanic in form, they are not in Essence, and other things are Evil in Essence but not in form, Islam is Evil and Satanic in BOTH Essence and Form. Not only do they worship a demon-god in form, they serve him with the very fiber of their being, producing pure evil and no good.

Quote
As to your second point, only Americans deserve free choice, it is offensive not to mention stupid.

Not at all, the responsibility of any State is to their Citizens, that is the reason social contracts and eventually states were formed, for the well being of their members. It is absurd to claim the American Government has the same responsibility towards and Iraqi as they do towards and American Citizen.

Quote
And lastly who are you to insist anything of anyone else?

Alone, I am not much, but I am only one amongst millions. And if we can convince others of the Rightness of our Cause we can gain even more influence. What I, and ever other Citizen of the Republic, can do is cast my vote for a Representative, Senators, and a President that will use the might of our arms to wage war against Islamic states as our current president has. So while alone I can do very little, in greater numbers we can wield the greatest and most powerful force that the world has ever seen. And every time something absurd like what was posted above happens, the American people become more and more disgusted with Islam, with every kidnapping, with every suicide bombing; and, Lord willing, this will result in more and more concentrated attacks against Islam until we can bring the fullness of our might to bear against them.
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 03:06:42 PM »

Not only do they worship a demon-god in form, they serve him with the very fiber of their being, producing pure evil and no good.

You know full well that there is no such thing as "pure" evil.  Or perhaps your hatred has blinded you so much that you now embrace this heretical idea?  Outrageous.  
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2006, 05:21:46 PM »

Punish the Beekeeper not the bees.  If killer bees are stirred up and let loose, then the guys who did this should be punished, not the bees alone.  Look at the cause behind militant Islam -yes there are peaceful forms of it (rare but real). Unfortunately nobody is going to the punish the guys behind the scenes.  Our 'Christian' tolerance has blinded us to the truth.   Who are these guys?  It is forbidden to name them - if you do, you end up in jail in Europe.
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2006, 05:54:41 PM »

Quote
Punish the Beekeeper not the bees.  If killer bees are stirred up and let loose, then the guys who did this should be punished, not the bees alone.  Look at the cause behind militant Islam -yes there are peaceful forms of it (rare but real). Unfortunately nobody is going to the punish the guys behind the scenes.  Our 'Christian' tolerance has blinded us to the truth.   Who are these guys?  It is forbidden to name them - if you do, you end up in jail in Europe.

This post makes no sense. Islam has been on a violent rampage since the 8th century. They are currently responsible for most of the conflicts around the world now. Your analogy is wrong, they are both the beekeepers & killer bees. The 'religion of peace' (that's what the jackals in the media call it & other people with their heads in the sand) that knows no peace.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2006, 06:04:44 PM »

I don't think I'm ever watching Southpark again.
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2006, 05:01:01 AM »

There is no greater evil than Islam, while things like Satanism may be Satanic in form, they are not in Essence, and other things are Evil in Essence but not in form, Islam is Evil and Satanic in BOTH Essence and Form. Not only do they worship a demon-god in form, they serve him with the very fiber of their being, producing pure evil and no good.

Not at all, the responsibility of any State is to their Citizens, that is the reason social contracts and eventually states were formed, for the well being of their members. It is absurd to claim the American Government has the same responsibility towards and Iraqi as they do towards and American Citizen.

Alone, I am not much, but I am only one amongst millions. And if we can convince others of the Rightness of our Cause we can gain even more influence. What I, and ever other Citizen of the Republic, can do is cast my vote for a Representative, Senators, and a President that will use the might of our arms to wage war against Islamic states as our current president has. So while alone I can do very little, in greater numbers we can wield the greatest and most powerful force that the world has ever seen. And every time something absurd like what was posted above happens, the American people become more and more disgusted with Islam, with every kidnapping, with every suicide bombing; and, Lord willing, this will result in more and more concentrated attacks against Islam until we can bring the fullness of our might to bear against them.

Firstly, If you are talking about real moslems here, (not the angry bitter murderers who commit crimes out of sin and pretend that it is for religious purposes) they worship God, they try to do good. That's not evil in anyone's book. Being wrong is not the same as being evil.

Your second arguement is muddled. This is not the point. We are not talking about to whom the USA has an obligation of protection, this is obvious. What we are talking about is everyone's (Jews, Greeks, Arabs ...EVERYONE'S) God given right to freedom of choice. You (you personally and you collectively, the US) are nobody to take that away from someone else just because you think they are wrong. God gave that right to everyone, you are not God; you do not have the right.

And your third arguement is again entirely off point. My question was regarding what gives you the right to insist that other people submit to your beliefs: this is hypocrisy, surely you can see that? I did not ask what MEANS you had to spread your arrogant and obnoxious views, I asked what RIGHT you had OVER other people. Why SHOULD only you or only America have freedom of choice and nobody else? And even if it was right that you should have more freedom than anyone else, (which I do not believe is the case) why do you have the right to remove or lessen other people's freedom?
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2006, 05:50:31 AM »

The above post would make sense if the argument was framed within the confines of those that actually live in a civilized society and the 21st century to boot. Since it's not argued within that context, it's pretty much a moot point. Yes we have freedom of choice, but what's the point if certain groups of people *cough like women, christian and jews cough* are not even accepted as real dignified human beings by most islamic societies? At this point in time, these people don't deserve to have these freedoms so they can abuse others and bully their neighbors around like they have been doing the past 1000 years. They will continue to do this until we take over all their lands and sit them down in some classrooms or lecture halls and teach them how to be good little boys & girls. Hate to say it, but the world would probably be much better off without these kind of people with 8th century sensibilities. I'm only stating what the 'silent' majority already beleives.
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« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2006, 05:57:23 AM »

At this point in time, these people don't deserve to have these freedoms
Nacho, you are doing the same thing annaspencer is talking about.
By what virtue can you make this moral assesment and impose it on others?
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« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2006, 06:06:29 AM »

Nacho, you are doing the same thing annaspencer is talking about.
By what virtue can you make this moral assesment and impose it on others?
In other words, rather than just repeatedly telling us what you morally believe, tell us why.
Muslims, through no fault of their own, are brutalised in Islamic countries- why do you believe these people don't deserve to have freedoms?
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« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2006, 04:50:43 PM »

Firstly, If you are talking about real moslems here, (not the angry bitter murderers who commit crimes out of sin and pretend that it is for religious purposes) they worship God, they try to do good. That's not evil in anyone's book. Being wrong is not the same as being evil.

The so-called 'real moslems' are just as guilty as the extremists, I dont see these so-called 'real moslems' marching in the street for the equality of women. And while we often see them rioting because they hate the west or because a Christian was not executed, we never see them protesting sharia law or intolerance in Islamic society. I'm sorry, but I fail to observe this artificial distinction you claim exists. It seems to me that 'the angry bitter murderers who commit crimes out of sin and pretend that it is for religious purposes' are not the exception but the rule in Islamic societies.

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Your second arguement is muddled. This is not the point. We are not talking about to whom the USA has an obligation of protection, this is obvious. What we are talking about is everyone's (Jews, Greeks, Arabs ...EVERYONE'S) God given right to freedom of choice. You (you personally and you collectively, the US) are nobody to take that away from someone else just because you think they are wrong. God gave that right to everyone, you are not God; you do not have the right.

I dont believe I am muddling anything, rather you seem to be. There are two distinct issues here, intersocietal relations and intrasocietal relations:

Every society's primary duty is to the well-being of its members, accordingly it must value it's own members' lives, liberties, and properties above the lives, liberties, and properties of members of other societies. Thus, while I would never support the reduction of the liberties of a citizen of our Republic for the security of either individuals or of the Republic, because we must place the well-being of our society first (a government is formed for the express purpose of seeing to the well-being of a given society) it is perfectly reasonable to restrict the liberties (or security) of others in an effort to increase the the security (or liberty) of the Citizens of this Republic.

Next we come to intrasocietal relations; within a given society the expectation of the freedom of choice is most reasonable, but it is not an absolute right. One's freedom of Choice must, at the very least, not infringe upon the rights of other Citizens. Accordingly, we would say that one does not have the freedom to choose to murder someone because that infringes upon the rights of the one who is murdered. Likewise, one could be said to be free to choose their religion, but if as a result of this choice they kill people who 'apostatize' from their religion or deny equality in freedoms to women then their choice of a religion infringes upon the rights of others and can be forbidden for the same reason that murder is forbidden.

Of course, this is an argument from enlightenment philosophy; from the perspective of Monarchy the argument is more straightforward, these nations (or people within your nation) profess beliefs that are at odds with those of our Lord (or Lady) and Sovereign and if our Sovereign, who rules by divine right, decides that they are a threat, or that their defeat would serve the state, we have a duty to our Monarch and to God to pick up arms in defence of and for the advancement of the Crown.

Quote
And your third arguement is again entirely off point. My question was regarding what gives you the right to insist that other people submit to your beliefs: this is hypocrisy, surely you can see that? I did not ask what MEANS you had to spread your arrogant and obnoxious views, I asked what RIGHT you had OVER other people. Why SHOULD only you or only America have freedom of choice and nobody else? And even if it was right that you should have more freedom than anyone else, (which I do not believe is the case) why do you have the right to remove or lessen other people's freedom?

We as a nation, like any nation, have a right to make war upon any nation or peoples that we view as a threat to our liberty, security, or way of life...and Islam is a threat to all three. How could any nation regard itself as sovereign if it were to be impotent in the face of such threats? And while in the 19th Century it could successfully be be argued that the only real manifestations of these threats were foreign invasion, corrupted governments, and domestic insurrection, no longer is that the case. A government or, as we have found out, a religion can threaten our citizen's liberty, security, and way of life from half a world away without making even preparations for an invasion. But though they lack the means to invade we cannot say that Islam and Islamic countries are any less dangerous; and, thus, it cannot be argued that our right to defend ourselves against this threat is in any way diminished.
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« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2006, 10:25:37 PM »

I totally agree I cant recall seeing any riots in the mid east when our civilians heads were cut off in Iraq
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« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2006, 10:57:08 PM »

Unfortunately I have to agree with GiC's earlier post. South Park should be free to do and say whatever they want on television as long as it doesn't violate FCC guidelines. If they want to put Mohammed on TV, they can. If they want to put Jesus Christ on TV, they can. The last time I check there were 2 major points in the US that are always referred to:

1) Freedom of Speech

2) Separation of Church and State

South Park doesn't show favoritism to one religion or another. They've hit every religion out there, Issac Hayes recently quit from his role as Chef because of their skit against the church of Scientology. THe fact is that they are not showing favoritism and they are doing these in good fun not to be blatently disrespectful. You have to understand the context in which things are used and presented. For example, are you going to say that It is improper for Swearing to occur in the Play "Grease"? In the 1950s, that was an accurate representation of High School life. Much like the president who is the leader of the US (or God of the US to make a relation to the church) is able to be written about and made fun of and the butt of jokes and political cartoons, so should any other figure, real or religious.

To end, here is a quote from Voltaire:
"I may dissaprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it!"

-Nick
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2006, 10:58:12 PM »

double post
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2006, 11:00:43 PM »

We as a nation, like any nation, have a right to make war upon any nation or peoples that we view as a threat to our liberty, security, or way of life...and Islam is a threat to all three.
"Have a right"? Is this a "God-given right"? Is it a "moral right"? Is it a "right" granted through international agreements?
If this is a "right" of all nations, then it is an Islamist nation's right as well, and according to Islamists, all infidels are a threat to them. It therefore follows that the Ottomans "had a right" to seize Constantinople and destroy the Eastern Christian Empire.

How could any nation regard itself as sovereign if it were to be impotent in the face of such threats?
Do you therefore not recognise the soveriegnty of the tiny island nation of the Kingdom of Samoa since it would be impotent to defend itself against threats? Does might alone make right? If it does, then once again the Ottomans were "right" to seize Constantinople.

I'm afraid we are just going to have to come up with better moral arguments than these to defend our "rights". Otherwise "rights" are determined by who has the greater military strength at any given time, and if history has shown us anything, it is that this variable constantly changes.
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2006, 11:16:35 PM »

Quote
Nacho, you are doing the same thing annaspencer is talking about.
By what virtue can you make this moral assesment and impose it on others?

We are not imposing anything. The rest of the world just wants to live in peace without the constant looming threat from the Islamist. What's the point of having equality in modern societies if we do nothing about a real threat that wants to do away with this? I would rather see this threat neutralized to ensure that people are afforded these basic human rights so we can continue to all live in peace amongst each other. It's too bad Islamic countries and their citizens at large don't believe in such things. They truly are in a way the new neo - nazis in headscarfs that oppress and murder the innocent among them. When such evils are taking place, I can't ignore these facts and just act like some politically correct retard and say things like 'but what about freedom of choice!' Sorry, but when you have a country like Iran that has promised to blow Israel to smithereens once they develop their nukes, at that point those so called freedoms fly out the door. It's time for another bombing campaign in my opinion, because once again the world is in dire threat from an out of control radical fundamentalist religion.
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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2006, 11:36:37 PM »

the world is in dire threat from an out of control radical fundamentalist religion.
Don't the skeptics, atheists, agnostics, ex-Christians etc also say this about Christianity?
Isn't Christianity a threat to people's way of life if that way of life includes greed for wealth, fornication, adultery, abortion...etc...? Don't these people therefore have a right to defend themselves against Christianity?
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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2006, 11:57:44 PM »

"Have a right"? Is this a "God-given right"? Is it a "moral right"? Is it a "right" granted through international agreements?
If this is a "right" of all nations, then it is an Islamist nation's right as well, and according to Islamists, all infidels are a threat to them. It therefore follows that the Ottomans "had a right" to seize Constantinople and destroy the Eastern Christian Empire.

From a secular perspective it can probably be argued quite objectively that the Empire was a threat to the Turks and thus they did have a right to go to war to defend themselves. Of course, it is reasons like this that I have always prefered the system of Christian Monarchy. With such a philosophy we do not have to yield to objectivity, we can simply say that Moslems should be exterminated because they are Moslems, regardless of how they behave themselves; for, indeed, any non-Orthodox Christian could properly be regarded as a threat to the Empire.

Quote
Do you therefore not recognise the soveriegnty of the tiny island nation of the Kingdom of Samoa since it would be impotent to defend itself against threats? Does might alone make right? If it does, then once again the Ottomans were "right" to seize Constantinople.

Because of Alliances they have made I would not regard Samoa as impotent, they could defend themselves by diplomacy, letting others fight on their behalf. A similar situation exists in Israel, on their own they would be helpless, but because of deals they have made with the united states for supplies and direct military aid they have actually become quite secure, provided they do not allow radical Islamic states to gain nuclear weapons. However, I seriously doubt that the United States can expect some other country to God to war on our behalf.

Quote
I'm afraid we are just going to have to come up with better moral arguments than these to defend our "rights". Otherwise "rights" are determined by who has the greater military strength at any given time, and if history has shown us anything, it is that this variable constantly changes.

It is not the 'right' that is determined by who has the greater military strenght, but rather the potential outcome of exercising said right.
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« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2006, 12:00:16 AM »

Don't the skeptics, atheists, agnostics, ex-Christians etc also say this about Christianity?
Isn't Christianity a threat to people's way of life if that way of life includes greed for wealth, fornication, adultery, abortion...etc...? Don't these people therefore have a right to defend themselves against Christianity?

Last I checked most Christian Countries don't outlaw any of those things. We may preach against it, but we clearly don't force our beliefs or morals on anyone. Now, if this were the 18th Century you might have a valid argument.
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« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2006, 12:16:47 AM »

I have always prefered the system of Christian Monarchy
Believe me, so do I GiC. What I have a problem with is morally justifying imposing my preferences on others. Do I really have a moral "right" to eliminate a religion I disagree with, simply because that would be my preference?
And more importantly for me personally- is waging military war to eradicate a false religion "justified" in the eyes of God? I know the State has a duty to defend it's people, but at present, I can only see war as a choice for a lesser moral evil, and not a moral good, or even a "right".
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« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2006, 10:41:50 AM »

Something to consider.  here in the US, Islam is taking another approach.  When I see educated blond females (Anglo) converting to ISlam, I want to puke.  yet more and more women, that are decidedly Anglo converting to a religion that holds women as nothing but objects of sexual usage (both here and again  over and over in the life to come) I want to shake them.
Islam is moving into rural parts of our US and setting up communes and such.  Not only do they attract American born and voting capable females, they breed them.  They may not be able to overrun the US by sheer numbers yet, at least not with might.  But they can infiltrate our land, convert people that obviously don't have any sense but have reproductive parts, and slowly take over that way.  It's a long shot, but as long as the US holds military might it can be considered more insidious to do it this way.
And Christians are on the stupid BC pill chemically aborting  up to 8 months out of 12 every year. (ever read the insert on how those things really work?)  they are surgically aborting their offspring just as much as their secular counterparts.  And, they are considering childbearing to be a burden that removes all their fun in life.  Orthodox Christians are just as likely to have the same mindset.  I haven't met many that have more than 1 or 2 children, which basically just replaces one parent.  Protestant Christians have a greed nature just like their worldly counterparts, and don't want to have their bikini line ruined with stretchmarks. I know that one first hand, I got brutally attacked verbally all the time because my life made others uncomfortable.
so Islam grows right under our noses. We have a commune of sorts right here in our southern agricultural rural state.  The FBI has told local law to stay out of anything that goes on there.  And since they are American born converts and their offspring, they can vote and run for office.  Its' going to get really interesting in the next few decades.

Islam is evil and always has been.  it does't matter if those following it are extremely fanatical or murderous, the whole religion espouses death to everyone that doesn't adhere.  some are just higher up on their most hated list.
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