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Author Topic: Smoking and Drinking  (Read 8389 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 10, 2006, 06:59:44 PM »

Forgive me for my ignorance but I am a little confused about something. I always believed that drinking any form of alcohol (given a non-fasting period at hand) is perfectly fine. Especially since red wine was drank by Jesus during the final supper. Also, of this I am not as sure but I believed that smoking was allowed under the right circumstances. Recently a Muslim was trying to convince me that Drinking is *not* allowed and I doubt smoking (including marijuana...maybe?) is dissallowed in the Bible. I was fairly sure that drinking is allowed, but of smoking I wasn't sure. Anyways, I didnt give a definit answer because it would not look good for a Muslim to understand the bible better than me. Does anyone have a quick answer for this? preferebly straight out of the Bible?
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« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2006, 07:29:24 PM »

Sloga,

Unfortunately, I do not believe the Bible says anything explicit about smoking.  All that we can glean from the Scriptures regarding this subject is general principles, such as how we are to take care of our bodies since they are temples of the Holy Spirit.  I don't know that Holy Tradition is very clear on the matter of smoking, either.  Some Fathers will say that Orthodox Christians have absolutely no business smoking anything at any time, while I'm sure others are more permissive.  This might be more appropriate as a subject to discuss with your spiritual father to seek his guidance, which may not help you in your talks with your Muslim acquaintance.  (Personally, I will enjoy the smoke of a cigar or pipe once in a blue moon, but I am in no way a habitual smoker.  I see an occasional smoke as harmless, but I am aware of the many health problems caused by frequent, regular smoking of all tobacco products.  To me, this conscious infliction of bad health upon myself and those around me is in itself sinful regardless of how I accomplish this.)

Regarding consumption of alcohol, what Jesus drank must have been grape juice!  (Just kidding. Cheesy  That's 19th Century American Temperance Movement doctrine imposed retroactively on Jesus's conduct.)  You are right in recognizing that it was wine that Jesus drank with His disciples during the last supper, for to my knowledge the pasteurization process that is necessary for keeping grape juice from fermenting into wine was not known in Jesus's day.  The Orthodox continue to drink wine, beer, and even hard liquor in social gatherings or in their homes; we even use wine in our Liturgies, to the extent of using wine in the central mystery of our life in Christ: Holy Communion.  The Orthodox have obviously never condemned the consumption of alcohol per se.  Wine is forbidden during days and seasons of fasting with exceptions for weekends, feast days, and pastoral concerns, but outside of this the guiding principle is moderation in all things.  Naturally, this would recognize drunkeness as always sinful and alcoholism to be a deadly addiction, but drinking in moderation is permitted and often encouraged in the Orthodox Church.

I hope this helps.

- Peter
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« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2006, 08:00:36 PM »

All things in moderation, simply put.

As Peter said, even smoking, in moderation, is not very harmful at all. It's when someone becomes addicted and dependent that problems arise. Of course, the "moderate amount" is based both on the substance and the person, but everything  does have a useful purpose. Some commonly available and consumed fish can be more dangerous to a person than what are commonly called "drugs." It is also interesting to note the large amount of caffeine have the same effects as cocaine. The only safe policy is moderation.
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« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2006, 08:12:01 PM »

The point is not being addicted to anything. This includes food.

Anastasios
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2006, 08:24:58 PM »

Some commonly available and consumed fish can be more dangerous to a person than what are commonly called "drugs."

Can you elaborate on this?  Do you mean (I think farmed) fish that happen to have high amounts of mercury (I'm just guess at this)?
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2006, 08:29:50 PM »

Ok thanks, especially Peter. I understand everything better now, so moderation is the key. addiction is bad. Come to think of it, I had a priest (God bless him, he recently passed of a heart attack), that smoked a lot. Eventually he quit because he had to have heart surgery. thanks once again
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2006, 08:36:58 PM »

Can you elaborate on this?  Do you mean (I think farmed) fish that happen to have high amounts of mercury (I'm just guess at this)?

Some have methylmercury, others dioxins, PCBs, etc. This is not just for farm-raised fish, but it also depends on the area they come from. (some farmed fish are actually safer). Some of the safest fish include:

Alaskan Salmon
Anchovies
Atlantic Herring
Atlantic Mackeral
Catfish (US)
Chunk-Light Tuna
Mahi Mahi
Sardines
US Shellfish (in general)
Tilapia (US)

It is important where the fish come from. For example, Atlantic Salmon can be dangerous, but Alaskan Salmon are very safe. Anything from SE Asia and that area is generally unsafe.
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 08:38:46 PM »

Thanks, Bizzl.
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 08:54:13 PM »

St Augustine: "Love God and do whatever you want."
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 09:01:29 PM »

St Augustine: "Love God and do whatever you want."

...which I'm sure is taken completely out of context.  Loving does not involve doing whatever you want.
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 09:15:09 PM »

St Augustine: "Love God and do whatever you want."

I can beat that:

'If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong (sin boldly), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign.'

Martin Luther, Letter 99, Paragraph 13. Erika Bullmann Flores, Tr. from: Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften Dr. Johann Georg Walch Ed. (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, N.D.), Vol. 15,cols. 2585-2590.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 09:35:49 PM »

Some have methylmercury, others dioxins, PCBs, etc. This is not just for farm-raised fish, but it also depends on the area they come from. (some farmed fish are actually safer). Some of the safest fish include:

Alaskan Salmon
Anchovies
Atlantic Herring
Atlantic Mackeral
Catfish (US)
Chunk-Light Tuna
Mahi Mahi
Sardines
US Shellfish (in general)
Tilapia (US)

It is important where the fish come from. For example, Atlantic Salmon can be dangerous, but Alaskan Salmon are very safe. Anything from SE Asia and that area is generally unsafe.

Where did you get this info about fish consumption?
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 10:22:38 PM »

Where did you get this info about fish consumption?

I got it from a lot of places, but this site has clear, consolidated information, and was were I created the list from: http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=healthalerts
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 10:24:09 PM »

Wo...

Confuzzlingly interesting...Martin Luther saying to sin...

I am so sure you beat the "taking things out of context" contest. lol

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2006, 10:30:33 PM »

Quote
I can beat that:

St Augustine: "If you are going to sin, sin BIG." Luther quoted this original text from our Doctor of Grace.
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2006, 11:25:55 PM »

There's nothing wrong with tobacco. There's nothing wrong with alcohol, either, or coffee, tea, cannabis, coca, opium, psilocybin, peyote, khat, betel, morning glory, or salvia, either, when they are used in an unprocessed or minimally-processed form. All these plants were created by God for man's use, and all have their benefits and drawbacks. The only thing to remember is whatever you do, do it in moderation.

-yBeayf, pipe smoker, snuff taker, and occasional drunkard
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2006, 12:44:54 AM »

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All these plants were created by God for man's use, and all have their benefits and drawbacks.

Ummm...I really don't like that argument.  Rastafarians use the same argument for marijuana to get them high...or as they put it spiritually high.  What I would reply back, normally, and forgive me for the bluntness of this argument, is simply that God did not create all berries to be eaten, otherwise we would die from the poisonous ones.

But I sense a vibe of sarcasm Wink  Sorry for ruining the joke.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2006, 01:38:08 AM »

If you take a look at mankind going all the way back to even the oldest oral/documented accounts, there have always been some kind of 'substance' man has used for various reasons across the board in all cultures. I don't think that is a coincidence, but rather paints a picture that people need for the most part some kind of outlet to help relieve everything from stress to simple personal pleasure. Of course not everyone will find that in smoking a cigar or having a few drinks, but it sure does help when sitting back and having a little R & R! If these things are not abused, in my opinion they can be very beneficial and calming for most people.
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2006, 03:05:57 PM »

Ummm...I really don't like that argument.  Rastafarians use the same argument for marijuana to get them high...or as they put it spiritually high.  What I would reply back, normally, and forgive me for the bluntness of this argument, is simply that God did not create all berries to be eaten, otherwise we would die from the poisonous ones.

But I sense a vibe of sarcasm Wink  Sorry for ruining the joke.

God bless.

Mina

You forget the important point of moderation. If they are getting high, it is not moderation, but addiction and misuse. Even poisonous things are useful. Don't forget that some of the strongest poisons come from very edible foods. It's all about the concentration, which again leads us back to moderation.
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« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2006, 03:16:22 PM »

Quote
Ummm...I really don't like that argument.  Rastafarians use the same argument for marijuana to get them high...or as they put it spiritually high.  What I would reply back, normally, and forgive me for the bluntness of this argument, is simply that God did not create all berries to be eaten, otherwise we would die from the poisonous ones.

But I sense a vibe of sarcasm Wink  Sorry for ruining the joke.

Nope, no sarcasm here. I fully support the use of natural psychoactive substances.

Quote
You forget the important point of moderation. If they are getting high, it is not moderation, but addiction and misuse.

Bah? Use is not the same thing as addiction, and it's hard to see how one can "misuse" something like cannabis resin, psilocybin, or opium, when their primary or only use is as a psychoactive substance. Smoking a bowl of marijuana or opium is not lack of moderation, any more than drinking enough to "gladden the heart of man" is. It's when these substances are used excessively, whether because of addiction or a desire to escape reality, that a problem develops.
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2006, 04:00:15 PM »

Always hold anything that a Muslim says about the Bible as questionable.

One attempted to lecture my wife in the grocery store line using the Bible because she was buying ham!
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« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2006, 12:14:29 AM »

Dear yBeayf,

While I'm surprised, actually shocked that you do support such substances to be used normally, I would like to ask what support do you have?  What Church authorities or Fathers teach this?  To me, getting high is equivalent to getting drunk, and the berry analogy is quite logical and smacks right to the face.

Dear Bizzlebin,

Poisonous berries can be useful, but not normally edible Wink like other berries.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2006, 02:16:26 PM »

I do not exaggerate, in any way, when I say that, in my country, and all over Eastern Europe perhaps, drinking, smoking and cursing are seen, on a popular level as almost unmistakeable marks of one's affiliation with to the OC. When these lack, in a conspicuous way, one's Orthodoxy is questioned, people wondering whether he is a Baptist or Pentecostal.
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« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2006, 02:25:28 PM »

I don't know how you can get into this topic without addressing the specific effects of the various drugs involved. As far as tobacco is concerned, it is one of the most addictive things known, is terrible for your health over the long haul, and is noxious to other people. Marijuana may not be that addictive, but it may be worse for your lungs, and it is at least as noxious as tobacco smoke to others. YOu can also get ther people around you high as well as yourself.

Let each judge for themselves, but I avoid these.
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« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2006, 04:09:24 PM »

Quote
As far as tobacco is concerned, it is one of the most addictive things known, is terrible for your health over the long haul, and is noxious to other people.

Moderation and courtesy are the keys. Nasal snuff doesn't bother anyone else; if used discreetly, neither does chewing tobacco or snus. I only smoke in my own apartment, or in smoking sections outdoors; in any case, I've never had someone complain about my pipe smoking.

Quote
Marijuana may not be that addictive, but it may be worse for your lungs, and it is at least as noxious as tobacco smoke to others.

However, when marijuana is smoked, the amount of smoke inhaled is much less than with tobacco. And marijuana can be used without smoking -- it can be heated below the combustion point to vaporize the THC, or it can be cooked or infused into butter, milk, or alcohol.
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2006, 10:40:15 AM »

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"All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything. (1st Corinthians 6:12)

"All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. (1st Corinthians 10:23)

Thou dost cause the grass to grow for the cattle, and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth, and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine, and bread to strengthen man's heart. (Psalm 104:14,15)

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to desire strong drink; lest they drink and forget what has been decreed, and pervert the rights of all the afflicted. Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more. (Proverbs 31:4-7)

While those who we are under (namely, our Bishops) have the right to forbid to us that which they deem to be generally harmful, fundamentally most things are a matter of conscience (of course that which the Scriptures outright forbid also is in this category).  Otherwise, wherever it is possible, liberty is to be respected.  For those who are not honest with themselves and who do not recognize humanity's vocation in light of it's end (eternity with God - even for those who die unrepentent), nothing can be pure.  It is the clear recognition of our end, and a willingness to consistantly do that which in conscience we know to be in accord with that end and to avoid that which is not, that is at the heart of "Christian ethics", such as they are.

Can our conscience be erroneous or misinformed?  Of course.  But so long as one struggles to be sincere, even such error will not be held against us (though it may very well be held against those who had the duty and opportunity to inform us!)

As for intoxicants, in principle their moderate use is fine, if one can in fact do precisely this (be moderate).  Such things are an opportunity for relief in this veil of tears, like many of the other little "creature comforts" which God so often gifts us with.  The only problem really is when we prefer these passing entertainments to the detriment of that which is everlasting - the goods of the Kingdom of God.  It is precisely the preference of eternal things (though not at the price of abhorring natural goods - this type of excess is the root of many heresies) which lies at the heart of advanced ascetical practices, whether it be the case of a pious couple who mutually agrees to foresake sexual relations, the mature individual believer who elects to not eat flesh meat, or those who formally enter monastic life.  Are these specific degrees of ascesis (or those like them) for everyone?  No, and if imprudently entered upon can actually do more harm than good.  But to some extent, all believers are called to some degree of ascesis to act as a medicinal corrective to the frailty engendered by their mortality (thanks to the ancestral sin). Traditionally this is understood to be the observance of the fasts of the Church calendar (most Wednesdays and Fridays throughout the year, Great Lent, etc.)  and the preparations our pastors place upon us for receiving Holy Communion.  That would be the "minimum" we should strive for (though even this can be a struggle).

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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2006, 01:39:34 PM »

But should something that leads to some sort of unnecessary tissue damage be taken?  Is not smoking and taking drugs damaging, or is moderation "healthy"?  Should we also take substances that make us "high"?

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2006, 04:33:50 PM »

But should something that leads to some sort of unnecessary tissue damage be taken?

tissue "DAMAGE" by smoking is a result of breathing in less oxygen and more smoke. All it is, is a way of speeding up aging. As you breath normal air, many more toxins and other gases "DAMAGE" your skin because what you did not breath in was Oxygen. This is the main reaosn for skin aging, so by smokoing, you ar enot damaging but rather speeding up the normal process.
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« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2006, 04:37:22 PM »

tissue "DAMAGE" by smoking is a result of breathing in less oxygen and more smoke. All it is, is a way of speeding up aging. As you breath normal air, many more toxins and other gases "DAMAGE" your skin because what you did not breath in was Oxygen. This is the main reaosn for skin aging, so by smokoing, you ar enot damaging but rather speeding up the normal process.

Is this the same as saying, "We're going to die anyway, so why not have fun doing it?"  Cheesy
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« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2006, 04:41:27 PM »

Is this the same as saying, "We're going to die anyway, so why not have fun doing it?"  Cheesy

yup  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2006, 05:05:47 PM »

Quote
But should something that leads to some sort of unnecessary tissue damage be taken?
Taken to an extreme, this would imply that one should never let sunlight hit one's skin, and live off of IV glucose/saline solution and vitamin/amino acid pills. Many good things cause tissue damage. It's not technically necessary for life to eat grilled animal protein (which contains small amounts of carcinogens), but that doesn't mean we have to give it up -- after all, even Christ ate grilled fish!
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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2006, 05:51:20 PM »

What about getting "high"?  Isn't that letting the drugs controlling you, even if taken in small amounts or "moderation?"
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« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2006, 05:55:30 PM »

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What about getting "high"?  Isn't that letting the drugs controlling you, even if taken in small amounts or "moderation?"

Nope.
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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2006, 06:25:35 PM »

smoking a cigar or having a few drinks, but it sure does help when sitting back and having a little R & R! If these things are not abused, in my opinion they can be very beneficial and calming for most people.

Still enjoy the few drinks , but that cigar... man, wish I could but I would be back to over a pack of Winstons a day within two weeks.

as Sloga describes the effects of smoking, I don't want to speed up the aging process that much or that fast, so I parted with the ciggies 3 and 1/2 years ago.

I also cut back on the drinking and that has helped with weight gain (which is a b*%#* to keep under control after one quits smoking)
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2006, 06:28:02 PM »

Hmmm...this only seems like playing with fire to me.  I'm okay with some sort of medicinal use, but to say for moderation and fun, while seeing the addictive and destructive nature they do, puts me at odds for now.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2006, 06:34:29 PM »

BTW I don't judge anyone who does smoke.

And I greatly envy social smokers - those who can smoke when they are out and then toss the pack in the trash the next morning or save them for the next outing.

I also allow alot of individual discression regarding drinking as to how much is okay: alot of it is how habitual it is, when and where, what the occasion is. Just don't get behind the wheel and drive and don't allow it to oil the gears of temper/anger. Oh, yeah, I've been married to long  Huh to immediately remember to advise the younger, single ones: don't let it oil the gears of passion!  Shocked

As for weed, I can see the younger generation making it a socially acceptable passtime in moderation - much like a few drinks.

The other substances mentioned are too easily agents of addicition to be permitted even in moderation (if that is possible), in my opinion. The POTENTIAL for addiction is just too great to warrant the risk.
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2006, 07:28:30 PM »

BTW I don't judge anyone who does smoke.

And I greatly envy social smokers - those who can smoke when they are out and then toss the pack in the trash the next morning or save them for the next outing.

I also allow alot of individual discression regarding drinking as to how much is okay: alot of it is how habitual it is, when and where, what the occasion is. Just don't get behind the wheel and drive and don't allow it to oil the gears of temper/anger. Oh, yeah, I've been married to long  Huh to immediately remember to advise the younger, single ones: don't let it oil the gears of passion!  Shocked

As for weed, I can see the younger generation making it a socially acceptable passtime in moderation - much like a few drinks.

The other substances mentioned are too easily agents of addicition to be permitted even in moderation (if that is possible), in my opinion. The POTENTIAL for addiction is just too great to warrant the risk.

I cannot agree any more than this. as a Teenager, I am telling many of you that times have changed greatly and some "rules" must be changed, but like BA said, anything more than moderation is a little iffy.
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2006, 10:09:36 PM »

Quote
The other substances mentioned are too easily agents of addicition to be permitted even in moderation (if that is possible), in my opinion. The POTENTIAL for addiction is just too great to warrant the risk.

Hmmm... the only one I'd really agree with you on is opium -- that one can be dangerous. Coca leaves (*not* cocaine), khat, and betel are mild stimulants when chewed, and in their native lands are used like we use coffee. Salvia, morning glory, psilocybin, and peyote are hallucinogens, and aren't addictive at all.
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2006, 12:03:48 AM »

B
you'd know more than me on that (what's addictive); I am not up on all these things and I did mistakenly thought that you were referring also to cocaine, which I saw my brother get addicited to.
I have a great distrust of hullucinigens cause I saw some friends take some bad trips on acid in the 70's. Never tried it myself 'cause I have way too active an imagination.
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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2006, 03:29:23 PM »

BrotherAidan,

Quote
I have a great distrust of hullucinigens cause I saw some friends take some bad trips on acid in the 70's. Never tried it myself 'cause I have way too active an imagination.

I'm weary of hallucinogens as well, mainly because they seem to innebriate to the point of excessive intoxication, and otherwise involve the loss of reason.  More to the point, I think they open people up not only to potentially harmful psychological experiences, but I dare say demonic influence as well.  They open the mind to the point of removing even natural barriers to such influences.
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« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2006, 03:32:29 PM »

I personally believe it's BEST to stay away from substances that mess up with your mind or has some sort of high toxicity and/or ability to get you addicted, such as nicotine.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2006, 06:15:11 PM »

BTW I don't judge anyone who does smoke.

And I greatly envy social smokers - those who can smoke when they are out and then toss the pack in the trash the next morning or save them for the next outing.

I also allow alot of individual discression regarding drinking as to how much is okay: alot of it is how habitual it is, when and where, what the occasion is. Just don't get behind the wheel and drive and don't allow it to oil the gears of temper/anger. Oh, yeah, I've been married to long  Huh to immediately remember to advise the younger, single ones: don't let it oil the gears of passion!  Shocked

As for weed, I can see the younger generation making it a socially acceptable passtime in moderation - much like a few drinks.

The other substances mentioned are too easily agents of addicition to be permitted even in moderation (if that is possible), in my opinion. The POTENTIAL for addiction is just too great to warrant the risk.


Honestly by your account here your basically saying that do as you want, smoke, drink what you want, but if you keep it in moderation its allright. How do you know what moderation is to some people ? What is moderation ?Anyone who has smoked marijuana before knows that after smoking enough of it you build up a cetain tolerance to it, just like drinking. You need more of it to effect you like it did when you first started doing it. So if its all about moderation after considerable use of it, eventually your moderation will become higher and higher, stronger and stronger. Come on man lets get real here, forget this excuse for moderation, I can buy into this for the alcohol, unless ofcourse your moderation becomes a 6 pack a day, because for some people that can certainly be moderation because it won't get them drunk anyways. But to find some sort of loophole for teenagers to use weed as a social past time is beyond me. I know from first hand what marijuana can do to you, especially at a young age, when your high what is moderation ? If your high off the weed anytime you smoke it then how can that be moderation ? I think your views on these issues are way of my brethren. I personally feel you can't smoke the ganja in moderation, you said that the other before mentioned drugs have to much potential for addiction. I don't know if you know this or not, but marijauna is the primary gateway drug to the higher more potent/dangerous drugs. A lot of drug addicts will tell you that they started off just smoking a little weed and nothing serious, before they knew it, they were taking the magic mushrooms, ecstasy, acid and eventually got into cocaine/heroin. Marijuana should not be taken lightly and should not be considered on the same level as alcohol, I do believe alcohol can be taken in moderation to a certain extent. Theres a real fine line there. If you have a glass of wine with your food here and there, have a few beers when some family is over or something, during a special occasion, like weddings/parties, etc. When you get to the point where your taking it to get drunk or a buzz, then you've pass the line of moderation. Anyways. Peace.
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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2006, 07:12:54 PM »

re: weed
was not referring to teens; thinking of the 20-somethings I work with, all of whom do or have smoked weed but don't do it all the time.
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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2006, 11:45:51 PM »

Dear Bizzlebin,

Poisonous berries can be useful, but not normally edible Wink like other berries.

God bless.

Mina

Oh, indeed some are not edible. Other things that poison can be extracted from, however, are.
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« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2006, 12:49:28 AM »

re: weed
was not referring to teens; thinking of the 20-somethings I work with, all of whom do or have smoked weed but don't do it all the time.


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« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2006, 01:23:33 AM »

Quote
And that makes it allright ?

Yep. ^_^ It's called (surprise!) moderation.
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« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2006, 12:20:24 PM »

Yep. ^_^ It's called (surprise!) moderation.
As a wise man once said about "smoking weed", "you can argue about whether it's right or wrong, but it sure is illegal!"
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« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2006, 12:29:26 PM »

As a wise man once said about "smoking weed", "you can argue about whether it's right or wrong, but it sure is illegal!"

Yes, and disobedience to civil authority, unless made absolutely necessary by our obedience to God, is in itself immoderate and sinful.
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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2006, 12:51:47 AM »

Well, I must admit.  I was a BAD boy last night.  I said to myself, "It's Pascha.  What the heck."  So I lit up a big fat STOGIE and smoked it!  My first cigar in two years.  Cool


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« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2006, 10:15:14 AM »

So I lit up a big fat STOGIE and smoked it!  My first cigar in two years.  Cool
I average about 10-12 per year.
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« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2006, 12:21:53 PM »

I average about 10-12 per year.

One per month is not bad.  Cool
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« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2009, 01:53:18 PM »

Hello everyone,

This thread is very old but I wanted to comment on the subject, which is all imho.  Anything that is done for the wrong purpose is sinful.  What do I mean for the wrong purpose here...smoking for example (that is pure tobacco, not the poison they have on the market now) can be medicinal...so smoking for this purpose would not be sinful.  Cannabis has been used for thousands of years to treat diverse ailments (which I will not go on listing now) and can be stilll used today if it were not illegal in some countries and states, that is if it's not mixed with all sorts of garbage (pure and naturally grown) it can be used for pain relief, antiemetic, anxiolytic, and so on in moderation...that is baked in cakes or one or two puffs from the smoked form.  It's basically the valium/vicodin of the plant world and NOT addicting like the alchemical/pharmaceutical opioid drugs we find to be legal.  How many people take valium and other anxiolytics or pain medication and do not feel sinful because they're doing it to treat an ailment?  Or pump their children up with Rittalin and Concerta.  So it's all based on the intention.  Also drinking, same ideas as the previous.  I mean let's be honest, when we drink a shot of vodka and we say that it's not going to make us dizzy and it's just for the "taste" is a little hypocritic.  All that being said, methamphetamines, heroin, cocaine, and all that are certainly garbage with NO benefits.  In conclusion it's all about one's true intention.  Smoking (cigarettes) is horrible...very addicting. 
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« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2009, 03:00:54 PM »

But should something that leads to some sort of unnecessary tissue damage be taken?  Is not smoking and taking drugs damaging, or is moderation "healthy"?  Should we also take substances that make us "high"?

God bless.

Mina
I don't think this is a good arguement, skateboarding, sports, even running can cause tissue damage and all effect endorphine levels to produce a "runner's high" with side effects of tunnel vision, elation and a come down as well.
Best theory: Keep your nose clean, your vices in check, and speak to your spiritual father about what you consume. If you can't do the latter, you're hiding something.
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« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2009, 03:07:18 PM »

Just a question...

When a fasting rule says that wine is allowed on Sat. & Sundays, does that include beer?

Also, I know getting drunk is bad and something we need to repent for...
But I learned last night, that even after seven beers, you can still pray. (something bad happened and I started praying the Jesus prayer)...
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« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2009, 03:25:35 PM »

 laugh After seven beers all I can do is pray! "Dear God, make the room stop spinning! I'll never (vomit) do it again (vomit)...I'm sorry I lost control (vomit) make it stop...." Man its been a while since I prayed that prayer. Not to say I'm not still capable of another St.Patty's Day fiasco. Cheesy
As far as I know beer or liquor is o.k. too, in moderation.
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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2009, 04:58:06 PM »

Just a question...

When a fasting rule says that wine is allowed on Sat. & Sundays, does that include beer?
I think this a question more about our fasting rules, which have been addressed on many other threads, and that this inquiry therefore falls outside the scope of this discussion.
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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2009, 06:22:48 PM »

I know, I was just looking for a quick answer, not an extended discussion.
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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2009, 07:28:07 PM »

As far as I know, in the Slavic world, beer has never been considered an alcoholic beverage. Ukrainian and Russian priests unanimously say that during fasts, an Orthodox faithful should abstain from HARD LIQUOR (i.e. vodka, cognac, whiskey etc.). During strict fast, he/she should also abstain from wine (never on Sundays though), but beer is never mentioned as something worth abstaining from on any fast, even the strictest.

To those who say that their head spins, etc. - guys, if you drink a few liters of pure water, believe me, your head will spin, too. It's just what physiologists call "hypervolemia."
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2009, 07:38:18 PM »

Heorhij - I think this is misleading...Are you saying you can not get drunk off of beer? The micro-brews in the Northwest are as much as 13.5 % (hiccup) Tongue
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« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2009, 07:50:00 PM »

Heorhij - I think this is misleading...Are you saying you can not get drunk off of beer? The micro-brews in the Northwest are as much as 13.5 % (hiccup) Tongue

If you drink liter after liter after liter of it - then yes, of course you can get drunk. But if you are an adult of average dimensions, drinking 2-3 12-ounce bottles of beer, even the so-called "strong" beer, will not make you drunk. And consuming more than that is as insane as consuming several liters of water - and, mind you, consuming several liters of water will lead to results that are as devastating as consuming a lot of alcohol.
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« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2009, 07:55:52 PM »

And consuming more than that is as insane as consuming several liters of water - and, mind you, consuming several liters of water will lead to results that are as devastating as consuming a lot of alcohol.

Like seeking the toilet in rush whith your knees crossed.
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« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2009, 08:11:40 PM »

Anything that hinders your relationship with God should be avoided. A few of these do not hinder mine in any way:

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« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2009, 08:14:08 PM »

And consuming more than that is as insane as consuming several liters of water - and, mind you, consuming several liters of water will lead to results that are as devastating as consuming a lot of alcohol.

Like seeking the toilet in rush whith your knees crossed.

Exactly, brother!  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2009, 09:21:13 PM »

In regards to fasting, if wine and beer can both not only get you drunk, but have similar alcohol content, shouldn't we abstain except for "wine days".? I guess it comes back to our own personal fasting...
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« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2009, 09:25:33 PM »

Smoking (cigarettes) is horrible...very addicting. 

Most American brand cigarettes (though not all) yes (they are laced with sugar and all kinds of chemicals not normally found in tobacco). Most cigars and most foreign cigarettes, no.
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« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2009, 10:48:04 PM »

And consuming more than that is as insane as consuming several liters of water - and, mind you, consuming several liters of water will lead to results that are as devastating as consuming a lot of alcohol.

Like seeking the toilet in rush whith your knees crossed.
One can even drink so much water in a short period of time that his electrolyte balance becomes dangerously diluted, thus causing a condition known as water intoxication that is as deadly as alcohol poisoning.
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« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2009, 01:12:52 AM »

I always thought the view that Christians shouldn't drink or smoke was taken from Puritanism rather than being supported by the Bible.
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« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2009, 10:17:00 PM »

Priests aren't allowed to smoke, or shouldn't... Smoking (that is, cigarettes, etc...) is very harmful to your health... Drinking isn't so bad, unless it's in excess...
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« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2009, 09:14:10 PM »

Priests aren't allowed to smoke, or shouldn't... Smoking (that is, cigarettes, etc...) is very harmful to your health... Drinking isn't so bad, unless it's in excess...

Haven't heard that before.
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« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2009, 09:29:22 PM »

Priests aren't allowed to smoke, or shouldn't... Smoking (that is, cigarettes, etc...) is very harmful to your health... Drinking isn't so bad, unless it's in excess...

Haven't heard that before.

Wasnt there a big Huff when the Campus Crusade for Christ became Othodox and was celebrated with cigars?
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« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2009, 10:36:49 PM »

It has to do with the Priests setting an example and not defiling their own bodies by harming them. It also has to do with the addiction associated with smoking... At least, this is what I've understood from what I've learned/heard...
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« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2009, 10:54:37 PM »

as far as smoking marijuana -- ask yourself how is it making you more Christ-like, or is it making you more animal-like with loss of inhibitions and what not? also, Romans 13 has pretty strong words about obeying the government.
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« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2009, 11:02:17 PM »

Priests aren't allowed to smoke, or shouldn't... Smoking (that is, cigarettes, etc...) is very harmful to your health... Drinking isn't so bad, unless it's in excess...


The Serbian Orthodox Metropolitan Christopher smokes, i gave him a cigarette ,when the[ H] Liturgy of the dormition feast ended.and we were walking to the Hall for the dinner after... Huh Huh
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« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2009, 11:09:29 PM »

I don't think it's like an official Canon or something they can be deposed for... Just something that Priests really should not do... Sure I know Priests aren't perfect, my dad (a protestant minister) isn't perfect... But being an Orthodox Priest is something very different than other forms of Christianity. They lead by example, they are the foremost to show Christ to their flock.
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« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2009, 11:17:29 PM »

Conn---
I said  Preosveceni i didn't know that you smoke ,,He answered the black earth heals all ills,and that was that.... the end..
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« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2009, 11:53:42 PM »

"He answered the black earth heals all ills"

Doesn't this strike you as somewhat wrong for a Priest/Bishop to say?
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« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2009, 12:01:36 AM »

"He answered the black earth heals all ills"

Doesn't this strike you as somewhat wrong for a Priest/Bishop to say?


Im still trying to figure it out what he meant by it.....in serbian how he said it,,,,,Црна Земља Лечи Сваки Болест....
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« Reply #77 on: June 30, 2009, 12:15:08 AM »

laugh After seven beers all I can do is pray! "Dear God, make the room stop spinning! I'll never (vomit) do it again (vomit)...I'm sorry I lost control (vomit) make it stop...." Man its been a while since I prayed that prayer. Not to say I'm not still capable of another St.Patty's Day fiasco. Cheesy
As far as I know beer or liquor is o.k. too, in moderation.
Is St. Patrick's Day on the Orthodox Calendar? Tongue
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« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2009, 12:31:32 AM »

Is St. Patrick's Day on the Orthodox Calendar? Tongue

Indeed it is, ChristusDominus. St Patrick the Enlightener of Ireland is a pre-schism Western saint, so he is considered by the Orthodox as a saint worthy of veneration, and his fesast day is March 17. In fact, this past Sunday was the liturgical commemoration of the saints of Britain and Ireland. The Irish don't have a mortgage on him these days. As for the excesses of St Paddy's day, well ... that's another story.  Shocked
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« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2009, 02:53:09 AM »

He was an amazing saint.

 I wonder why people have to get plastered on that specific day.
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« Reply #80 on: June 30, 2009, 03:55:02 AM »

Back on topic, please. Wink
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« Reply #81 on: June 30, 2009, 07:33:56 AM »

It has to do with the Priests setting an example and not defiling their own bodies by harming them. It also has to do with the addiction associated with smoking... At least, this is what I've understood from what I've learned/heard...

I've met a few Orthodox priests in the US and Romania who smoke pipes or cigars, so it's not unheard of. But I'd say that the advice that priests not smoke makes sense mostly in that many parish priests, struggling to get by and raise families, simply cannot afford the added expense of tobacco.
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« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2009, 07:51:43 PM »

My wife smokes a few a day but not many, I chew tobacco a little (quit smoking this way because my lungs would hurt from it [after twenty years of smoking]). We both abstain from it on Sunday until the evening. I really don't see too much of a problem with it. And coming from my past history with addiction, I'm not doing so bad...It's all relative. We struggle like anyone else but as far as vices go, I don't see it as bad as quite a bit of other things I used to be inclined to do. For others, I say to them smoking "too much" is bad, eating "too much" is bad, drinking "too much: is bad, period. But I love a good lamb roast, or tobacco, or a drink when I can. I just don't let it rule my life. Are there times when I'm tempted that I fail? Yes. Are there times when I'm tempted that I refrain? Yes.
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« Reply #83 on: July 01, 2009, 08:57:53 PM »

The answer of this question is found in the motives, what's behind.

In some cold cold regions, a glass of herbal strong liquor is used not only to warm up, but also as a natural remedy for some diseases.

Eating with wine is customary in some families, even children have their own small glasses for wine, this is done as part of the meal.

The use of alcohol is bad when it's used for the bad reasons, like when it's used in parties to "have fun", when it's used to enjoy it's effects, and "relax"  "feel better after a loss" "forget a difficult thing", etc..

When someone becomes addicted to alcohol, even if the person does not get "lost", he is not allowed to receive communion, until he stops the vice, as this is considered a bad habit.

According to tradition, smoking is forbidden by the Church, and a smoker can never become a bishop, a priest, a monk, not even a chantor. If a person during his catecumenate does not stop smoking, he is unlikely to be blessed to accept the Holy Baptism.

Any person who smokes can not receive the communion until he stops smoking, for smoking is considered a vice, and a way of legal substance abuse or even drug addiction.


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« Reply #84 on: July 01, 2009, 09:08:47 PM »



According to tradition, smoking is forbidden by the Church, and a smoker can never become a bishop, a priest, a monk, not even a chantor. If a person during his catecumenate does not stop smoking, he is unlikely to be blessed to accept the Holy Baptism.

Any person who smokes can not receive the communion until he stops smoking, for smoking is considered a vice, and a way of legal substance abuse or even drug addiction.



Maybe in your world...?
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« Reply #85 on: July 01, 2009, 09:56:30 PM »

I am amazed at the outdated and false information prevalent amongst the posters on this thread. I am not talking about the faith-related aspects (except may be IPC who has his own little world) but about the scientific and factual knowledge that exists today about smoking and drinking.

Nicotine is one of the worst substances one can try. It is very easy to get addicted to and very few people, especially during adolescence, can resist it. The same goes for most other substances because during adolescence the center in the brain that we normally use for decision making is undergoing change and not terribly effective (adolescence starts with puberty and lasts until age 25 for fmales and 27 for males, according to brain imaging studies). The main life cycle problem is that the habits that we form during this time imprint themselves on us and plague us the rest of our lives. (Check out CDC's Healthy Schools site: http://www.cdc.gov/HealthyYouth/healthtopics/).

Substance affect different people in different ways. Research shows that even very small quantities of alcohol, for example, can affect some people under certain conditions and impair their judgment. The latest finding is about the presence of a gene in some folks that may make them predisposed to alcoholism. Other recent findings indicate that THC, the psycho-active substance in marijuana damages one's genes--proving Darwin's theories in a perverse way. I would invite all to check out SAMHSA's site for further information (http://ncadi.samhsa.gov/

I think Peter the Aleut's initial post and much of Mina's posts were on the money. If you are going to drink, do so moderately (women-1 drink, men-2 drinks max) and do not drive--you might kill somebody. Please avoid nicotine at all costs. In addition to its addictive qualities, it affects to arteries by narrowing them, and when the effect wears off, the arteries go back to their normal diameter. In the meantime, if you have plaque in your arteries, the constriction/relaxation cycle is bound to release a chunk, and that chunk can wind up causing an infarction (blockage of the arteries feeding your organs, such as heart, lungs and brain).

In any case, if you want to drink you should also know that red wine seems to be your best bet. A study that was just released showed at wine cuts the risk for some sorts of cancer by half, while hard liquor and beer doubled the risk. Other studies have shown that red wine may have more beneficial effect than white wine.

Total disclosure: I work for a state agency on substance abuse services.
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« Reply #86 on: July 01, 2009, 10:22:29 PM »

Quote
while hard liquor and beer doubled the risk.
hmm... so vodka is a bad idea???
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« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2009, 01:37:51 AM »

Quote
while hard liquor and beer doubled the risk.
hmm... so vodka is a bad idea???


The truly bad idea in that image is the fact that you're drinking Vodka with a name like "McCormick" out of a plastic bottle. Since when are the Irish known for their vodka???!!

Dear boy, if you're going to drink vodka, do it right. GreyGoose or Kettle One all the way.

Remember, never drink from the well. Cheap liquor is distilled less than expensive liquor, and your body will pay for it in the morning.

Pay with your wallet, not your body. Drink the good stuff that is distilled more.

It will prevent you from drinking too much, and you'll feel better the next day.
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« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2009, 08:09:26 AM »

McCormicks comes from here in the Kansas City area just on the NW side of town. The vodka is quadruple(sp?)-distilled. Also, I dunno why those are in plastic bottles because mine is in glass...
http://www.mccormickdistilling.com
from their site: "McCormick Distilling, located in historic Weston, Missouri, is the oldest continuously operating distillery in the U.S." (est. 1856)

Heres what I have:
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« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2009, 08:43:42 AM »

The use of alcohol is bad when it's used for the bad reasons, like when it's used in parties to "have fun"

So why did Christ provide more wine at the wedding at Cana when the celebrants had already had quite a bit? Why does the Psalmist thank God for wine that "gladdens the heart of man"? While all-out drunkenness is bad, the Christian tradition has never opposed the use of alcohol to liven festivities.

Quote
According to tradition, smoking is forbidden by the Church, and a smoker can never become a bishop, a priest, a monk, not even a chantor.

True for some areas, not true for others.
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« Reply #90 on: July 02, 2009, 09:29:34 AM »

"He answered the black earth heals all ills"

Doesn't this strike you as somewhat wrong for a Priest/Bishop to say?


Im still trying to figure it out what he meant by it.....in serbian how he said it,,,,,Црна Земља Лечи Сваки Болест....

The first thing that occurred to me was that it is a reference to being buried after death. 
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« Reply #91 on: July 02, 2009, 09:33:13 AM »

Dear CRCulver

Very good question.

What I meant by "having fun" is the abuse of wine and other spirts to go wild and crazy, and go fighting, car speeding, carnal activities, and other sinful, and dangerous things.

A bit of "gladness to the heart" as we read in the Bible, is one thing, drunkness when the conscience falls asleep and the evil one gets his way, is quite another.

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« Reply #92 on: July 02, 2009, 09:41:26 AM »

"He answered the black earth heals all ills"

Doesn't this strike you as somewhat wrong for a Priest/Bishop to say?


Im still trying to figure it out what he meant by it.....in serbian how he said it,,,,,Црна Земља Лечи Сваки Болест....




The first thing that occurred to me was that it is a reference to being buried after death. 


Could Be that he meant all vices stop after death....All earthly desires cease,, be it for good or ill ,so hence the cure is death ....i think....
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« Reply #93 on: July 02, 2009, 10:27:29 AM »

Quote
while hard liquor and beer doubled the risk.
hmm... so vodka is a bad idea???


The truly bad idea in that image is the fact that you're drinking Vodka with a name like "McCormick" out of a plastic bottle. Since when are the Irish known for their vodka???!!

Dear boy, if you're going to drink vodka, do it right. GreyGoose or Kettle One all the way.

Remember, never drink from the well. Cheap liquor is distilled less than expensive liquor, and your body will pay for it in the morning.

Pay with your wallet, not your body. Drink the good stuff that is distilled more.

It will prevent you from drinking too much, and you'll feel better the next day.

Grey Goose and Ketel One are both very good but pale in comparison to Hangar One IMHO.
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« Reply #94 on: July 02, 2009, 11:34:15 AM »

What I meant by "having fun" is the abuse of wine and other spirts to go wild and crazy, and go fighting, car speeding, carnal activities, and other sinful, and dangerous things.
Then shouldn't we blame the dangerous and sinful things rather than the wine?
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« Reply #95 on: July 02, 2009, 08:05:14 PM »

Dear simplygermain

If you were a true orthodox christian, what I said wouldn't surprise you so much, and you'll consider the strict prohibition of smoking, as something natural, coming from christian piety.

The condemnation of smoking is not observed in the Moscow Patriarchate, World Orthodoxy, and other reformed progressit denominations (with few exceptions). They don't care, as long as you don't do it in the temples.

From the spiritual point of view, smoking is a vice, a bad habit, a desecration of the Temple of the Holy Spirit (the body), a loathsome sybarite action harmful for the body and soul.

   







 
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« Reply #96 on: July 02, 2009, 09:25:18 PM »

Yo Mama!  Shocked

But seriously, are you calling everyone in that category of churches you just mentioned in your post, not True-Orthodox??! or just me...because if you are calling me non-Orthodox, you're half-right...although I was baptized under the canonical jurisdictions, I am only a sinner striving for Orthodox Christianity. I have not attained a perfection of it.
However, if you are calling all my brothers and sisters within said jurisdictions non-Orthodox Heretics, Brother, you just cast the first stone. I hope you're ready for what's next.

A sinner, SimplyGermain
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« Reply #97 on: July 02, 2009, 10:04:11 PM »

A second reply as well, so that you may feel more dignified, Brother IPC...
While I agree with your last statement ( I am aware that vice is sin ) I will continue along my narrow path to our Heavenly Father in fasting, prayer and repentance as He, "the Great Physician" cuts out everything that seperates myself from Him. And I will do this in the time that He has alotted me. But I will not condemn or judge others or myself as forbidden from the Kingdom of Heaven by a bit of tobacco. Nor will I try to mislead them in the teachings of the faith. There is no written Canons regarding this vice we speak of or has there ever been an Anathema passed on them that use it.
If you disagree than show us...Otherwise "Look at the mote in your own Eye."

a sinner, simplygermain +
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« Reply #98 on: July 02, 2009, 10:36:54 PM »

What I meant by "having fun" is the abuse of wine and other spirts to go wild and crazy, and go fighting, car speeding, carnal activities, and other sinful, and dangerous things.

Part of this could be covered under "binge drinking" in my college Health class text book, that is consuming a large quantity of alcoholic beverage with the specific intent of becoming "blott-o".  This is a bad habit to get into.

That is quite different from enjoying a glass of beer or wine or the like.
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« Reply #99 on: July 02, 2009, 11:05:02 PM »

Dear simplygermain,

Correct!, I am refering to the churches I just mentioned as non orthodox, reformed and progressist denominations, and of course, that include all of it's members.

There is the One Church, and different dissenting groups (roman catholics, oriental orthodox, lutherans, moscow patriarchate, world orthodoxy, jehova witnesses, mormons, mosshianic jews, adventists, pentecostals,,,,,,)

It's nothing personal simplygermain, and yes, I'm ready to what's next.

That's very kind of you, but you don't have to be formal with me and call me brother, feeling dignified is something I fear and try to avoid, the more dishounour and disrespect, the better Smiley Honest!

I don't judge you, first of all, I don't know you.

The only thing we have here is words, and I trust you, as I trust all the ones in here who have not given me a reason not to.

It's good to see you're fighting the good fight, and that you know everything good comes from Him, it is Him who saves us, it is Him who heals us, and it it Him who comes and deliver us from the evil one, destroying all what's between Him and us. Greater love than His, there is none.

While you are right in saying there are no canons specifying tobacco, just like there are no canons specifying the consumption of other drugs either by smoking (inhaling), by eating (ingestion), or any other way. But there are canons concerning unrepentant and stubborn sinners.

It is clinically proven that smoking is a way of drug addiction. Just like heroine, and other drugs, smoking tobacco (cigarettes, cigars, pipe..) triggers in the brain the production of the same amounts of flow opioids in the brain, causing among other things, an addiction.

Smoking also is harming the bodies given to us by God, and in some cases, it's a way of suicide, as smoking may lead to death.

Smokers, being drug addicts, and destroyers of the Temple of the Holy Spirit, the body,  have to be treated like any other unrepentant and stubborn sinner, and they should not receive communion, unless they repent and stop it.

There is another reason for this, when people repent and receive communion, that's very good for them, but when an unrepentant sinner comes to receive communion, it will be better if he never did that, he'll bring disgrace for himself, God is not mocked.

Just as the Church can not, in any wise condone and endorse drug addiction, She can not condone and endorse smoking. The Church has an unwavering and firm stand when it comes to sin and vice.

What kind of Mother would leave Her sons do something dangerous and harmful? What kind of love would that be?





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« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2009, 01:03:23 AM »

Sloga, God Bless you...I know you will find the truth as long as you seek it. May have mercy on you and give you wisdom. I think enough has been said on this thread by me. I'm not looking for an arguement.

Please forgive me, a sinner.

 - simplygermain

 
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« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2009, 01:13:47 AM »

Dear simplygermain,

Correct!, I am refering to the churches I just mentioned as non orthodox, reformed and progressist denominations, and of course, that include all of it's members.

There is the One Church, and different dissenting groups (roman catholics, oriental orthodox, lutherans, moscow patriarchate, world orthodoxy, jehova witnesses, mormons, mosshianic jews, adventists, pentecostals,,,,,,)
IPC, we all know by now how you feel regarding those Orthodox in the jurisdictions you call "world Orthodox", since you've already started a few threads explaining how we are not Orthodox.  If you want to continue to tell us how we're not Orthodox, I recommend you do so on one of the threads you've already started with that focus in mind.  Otherwise, you act very unwisely to make this mantra a part of general conversation wherever you post, since you only end up insulting most of your readers and turning us off to what you have to say when you do this.  Need I mention that this derails threads, as well?

If you want to discuss this with me further, please do so via private message.
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« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2009, 08:43:53 PM »

You are right PeterTheAleut, I apologize.
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« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2009, 09:49:01 PM »


Correct!, I am refering to the churches I just mentioned as non orthodox, reformed and progressist denominations, and of course, that include all of it's members.

There is the One Church, and different dissenting groups (roman catholics, oriental orthodox, lutherans, moscow patriarchate, world orthodoxy, jehova witnesses, mormons, mosshianic jews, adventists, pentecostals,,,,,,)anons specifying the consumption of other drugs either by smoking (inhaling), by eating (ingestion), or any other way. But there are canons concerning unrepentant and stubborn sinners.

As a member of the Moscow Patriarchate, one of the groups you mention, I have to say that I find your words harsh, my son.   But may God bless you.   May He shower your life with every spiritual and terrestial blessing.

“For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope.” Jeremiah 29:11

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« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2009, 11:51:00 PM »


Correct!, I am refering to the churches I just mentioned as non orthodox, reformed and progressist denominations, and of course, that include all of it's members.

There is the One Church, and different dissenting groups (roman catholics, oriental orthodox, lutherans, moscow patriarchate, world orthodoxy, jehova witnesses, mormons, mosshianic jews, adventists, pentecostals,,,,,,)anons specifying the consumption of other drugs either by smoking (inhaling), by eating (ingestion), or any other way. But there are canons concerning unrepentant and stubborn sinners.

As a member of the Moscow Patriarchate, one of the groups you mention, I have to say that I find your words harsh, my son.   But may God bless you.   May He shower your life with every spiritual and terrestial blessing.

“For surely I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare and not for harm, to give you a future with hope.” Jeremiah 29:11

Hieromonk Ambrose
Irish Hermit,

As I have already talked to IPC about this issue, I would rather you not derail this thread by speaking up in defense of any of these "world Orthodox" jurisdictions here on this thread.  It just isn't necessary, especially since you have properly addressed his accusations elsewhere.

If you want to discuss this with me, please do so via private message.
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« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2009, 08:51:31 PM »

ELDER NEKTARIUS OF OPTINA ON SMOKING

The Sin of Smoking

I am continuing my mental battle with the vice of smoking, but it's still completely unsuccessful. I have to quit this filthy and stupid occupation; it is noticeably ruining my health — the gift of God — and that is a sin.

The ever-memorable Elder Ambrose once heard an admission from one of his spiritual daughters:

"Batiushka! I smoke and this is tormenting me!"

"Well," the Elder answered her, "this isn't a great misfortune, if you can quit."

"That's just the problem," she said, "I can't quit!"

"Then it's a sin," said the Elder, "and you've got to repent of it and leave off doing it."

I also have to leave off, but how do I do it? I'm consoled by the words of our Elders, who promised me freedom from this sin "when the time is right."

The late patron of Optina Monastery and spiritual friend of its great Elders, Archbishop Gregory of Kaluga, could not stand this vice among the clergy, but he was condescending towards laymen who smoked, and even towards his seminarians, before they joined the clerical staff. He categorically demanded from candidates who were preparing for ordination that they cease from this filthy habit, and he did not ordain those who smoked.

Our friend Fr. Nektary, to whom I often complained about my weakness, informed me of this. "After all," he consoled me, "you, your honor, are a layman — what's to be expected from you? But here..."

And he related the following to me:

"In the days of Archbishop Gregory, a spirit-bearing and monk-loving man, the following incident happened. A seminarian from Kaluga, who had graduated at the head of his class, and who, because of his exceptional giftedness was personally known to the Archbishop, had to prepare himself for ordination to one of the better positions in the diocese. He appeared before the Archbishop for a blessing and to set a date for the ordination. The hierarch received him with extreme affection, conversed amiably with him and, having shown fatherly kindness towards him, dismissed him, assigning a date for the ordination. However, when dismissing the candidate, he did not fail to ask him, 'Well, then, brother, do you smoke, or not?'

"'No, your Eminence,' replied the candidate, 'I don't go in for that.'

"'Well, good,' the Archbishop exclaimed joyfully, 'see what a fine fellow I've got! Well then, prepare yourself, and may the Lord bless you!'

"According to custom, the candidate bowed to the feet of the Archbishop. His frock coat flew open, and from his breast pocket cigarettes began to fall out onto the floor, one after the other.

"The Archbishop flared up in indignation. 'Who made you lie to me?' he exclaimed with great anger. 'To whom have you lied? When have you lied? When preparing to serve God in holiness and in truth?... Get out of here! There is no position for you, nor will there be one!...'

"And with that he drove the liar out of his sight.... So, your honor," added Fr. Nektary, looking at me with his always laughing, kind and affectionate gaze, "why be dejected that it's not the smell of athonite incense that comes out of your mouth? To whom are you obliged?... And, you know what?" — he exclaimed, and his face lit up with a kind smile. "You won't believe it — I myself barely avoided joining the ranks of smokers. This was back in my childhood, when I still lived at home, together with my mama.... In the whole wide world there were only the two of us, Mama and me, and there was also a cat that lived with us.... We were of a low station, and because of this we were poor: who needed people like us? Well, then, once my mama wasn't keeping an eye on me and I went ahead and borrowed some tobacco from some of my rich peers. They had no shortage of tobacco and they willingly treated everyone who wanted it. They rolled themselves a cigarette, smoked and smoked, and then stuck it in my mouth — 'Here, have a smoke!' Well, following them, I myself began to smoke. The first time I tried it I became dizzy, but I liked it all the same. Cigarette butt after cigarette butt, and I already began to get used to this mischief. I began to beg and then to borrow on credit, hoping somehow to pay it back. But what was I going to pay it back with, when my own mother lived, as they say, from bread to kvass, and there wasn't always plenty of bread.... Then my mama began to notice the smell of tobacco coming from me....

"'What's this, Kolya (my name in the world was Nicholas) — you haven't begun to smoke, have you?'

"'What do you mean, Mommy,' I would say, 'I hardly think so!'

"And I would quickly move aside, as if I were doing something. It went that way once, then another time, and then I got caught. Once I had barely managed to inhale some borrowed tobacco on the sly, when suddenly, there was Mama.

"'Were you just smoking?' she asked.

"Again I said, 'No, Mama.'

"But where did I get 'no' from? I reeked of tobacco from way off. Mama didn't say a word to me then, but she gazed at me with such a sorrowful look that you could say that my whole soul was overturned within me. She went away from me somewhere to do the housework, and I hid in a secluded corner and began to weep inconsolably, that I had grieved Mama. And not only had I grieved her, I had deceived her and lied on top of that. I can't express how painful this was for me! The day passed, night came, and my mind sought for sleep. I lay in my bed and whimpered, lay and whimpered.... Mama heard it.

"'What is it, Kolya — you're not crying, are you?'

"'No, Mama.'

"'Why aren't you sleeping?'

"And with these words, Mama got up, lit the lamp and came over to me. My face was all wet with tears and my pillow was soaked....

"And what happened between us then!... We both had a good cry and were reconciled. Having a good cry with one so dear, how nicely we were reconciled!

"And thus ended my mischief with smoking."
***************************************************
Soure: http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/nektary_e.htm


Smoking is a sin that always comes with other sins, lies are just some of them.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 08:52:10 PM by IPC » Logged

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« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2010, 07:06:20 AM »

I have just quit smoking cigarettes (about 3 weeks ago now) for the millionth time. In the past I have gone cold turkey for months on end. I never want to smoke another cigarette because I am wholly addicted, I can not smoke cigarettes on occasion. I have found in the past that allowing myself an occasional cigar or pipe as a 'treat' helps avoid cigarettes.
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"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
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