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Author Topic: THE ROCOR-MP CONNECTION  (Read 10509 times) Average Rating: 0
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Brother Nathanael
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« on: April 09, 2006, 04:54:56 PM »

"THE ROCOR-MP CONNECTION"

Dear List Members.

I am new to this List and would like to hear from you all with regard to the upcoming ROCOR SOBOR this coming May 2006 in which the ROCOR Hierarchs will vote whether or not to join with the Moscow Patriarchy.

I am decidedly against it as I speak out against it vociferously on my Blog which gets over 1200 hits a week @ http://sbn-nathanael.livejournal.com/

But I would like to hear from others what their opinion is on the pending union between the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia with the Moscow Patriarchy with Alexy II at the head.

I look forward to a dialogue on this issue with you all.

Brother Nathanael
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 05:07:55 PM »

OMG! He's here!

Kook alert! Kook alert!
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2006, 05:44:23 PM »

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But I would like to hear from others what their opinion is on the pending union between the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia with the Moscow Patriarchy with Alexy II at the head.

I think it's great, though I doubt my reasons would be any more persuasive here than they were at the Euphrosynos Cafe.
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2006, 05:47:40 PM »

I think it is wonderful!  If it doesn't happen, I will be very disappointed.
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2006, 06:01:34 PM »

I think it is wonderful!  If it doesn't happen, I will be very disappointed.

I dont know how it would work with membership in the WCC looming over the MP's head?   ROCOR is very much against any membership that rubs elbows with Protestant groups.

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Brother Nathanael
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2006, 06:55:19 PM »

The issue of the MP being very much involved with the WCC *should* be an issue with the ROCOR hierarchs. But it is not!

Why is it not an issue? Because the ROCOR has already compromised with world orthodoxy in its inter communion with the Serbian Patriarchate since the late 80's.

But the MP goes much further than World Orthodoxy. The MP rubs shoulders and joins in at joint prayer with Protestant groups. That should send up a red flag with the ROCOR hierarchs--but even this does'nt.

The ROCOR wishes to ingore these embarrasing and very real issues - simply because Laurus and his cohorts have been boughy with MP $$$$. (More on next post tomorrow)

Brother Nathanael
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2006, 12:42:48 AM »

ROCOR needs to enter in full communion with World Orthodoxy. This is extremely important.

I think it is wonderful!  If it doesn't happen, I will be very disappointed.

I completely understand and support these feelings.

However, the question is the method of entrance into World Orthodoxy. ROCOR should approach the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople instead of MP. Reasons for it:
1.   Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople has a status of first among equals.
2.   During last decades several non-Greek jurisdictions joined Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople — Autonomous Orthodox Church of Finland, Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America, American Carpatho-Russian Diocese of America, Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA and Diaspora, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada, Russian Orthodox Exarchate of Western Europe, and Belarusian Council of Orthodox Churches of North America. Ecumenical Patriarchate followed all previous agreements and demonstrated special respect to all of them.  
Instead, the union with MP seems problematic due to certain major problems within MP:
1.   Corruption.
2.   Epidemics of pseudo-“elders”
3.   Violation of human rights in some monasteries and parishes and absence of attention to these facts.
4.   MP does not follow own promises. When MP granted autocephalous status to OCA (jurisdiction, which I highly and sincerely respect), MP promised to transfer their North American parishes to OCA. That never transpired. Also, MP applies double standards in terms of granting autocephaly to other Local Orthodox Churches.
5.   Events in Surouzh diocese a couple of years ago, when a huge disrespect to the clergy and laity of the diocese from the side of MP has been demonstrated.
Of course, many hierarchs, clergy and laity of MP are completely innocent in terms of these issues. I respect these people. But ROCOR’s new boss will be Alexis II. Why ROCOR would not choose the proven path of others?
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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 12:53:25 AM »

Starlight,

I don't think that ROCOR really worries about being in communion with world Orthodoxy. The reason that they are cozying up to the MP is because that is what they believe that they are supposed to do. They have always considered themselves a group that is something of an exile, and will someday reunite with those inside of Russia. That time has not yet come, since the MP is not fully trusted: thus the MP wouldn't rule over them, but only be in communion with them in the near future. I personally do not understanding this: how can you share what is called the most holy body and blood of Christ as brothers, but distrust someone politically and administratively enough to keep your distance? Nonetheless, ROCOR is moving forward at least, hopefully with concelebration and intercommunion (we'll know in about a month). The problem with going straight to the EP--apart from the EP being probably the most active participant in Ecumenism, and also on the new calendar--is that the EP now sees ROCOR as someone who must reconcile with the MP, with the MP being the legit Church body, and ROCOR being the quasi-schismatic (or outright schismatic) red-headed step-child.
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 02:07:20 AM »

Is this May event in SF?  If so, I was just asked to sing in a Men's choir for which all the hierarchs will be there.  Rather intimidating...but good people all around. Shocked
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 08:32:37 AM »

Personally, I dissagre with Nathanial.  I think the Church Abroad needs to be carefull with the Moscow Patriarch.  Yes, it has gotten better, but we must also be wary.  Just as it too quite a while for the Arians to dye, so too, will it take for the Communist to die.  That said, I also think a reconcilliation between Moscow is a good thing.  It can only strengthen the Russian Church.  However, people are jumping the gun as if it already happened.  There still has to be a council before anything happens.  I think Met. LAURUS is wise in this as he is taking it slow.  He realizes that moving too fast could cause dissatisfaction.  Thus, may God continue to bless him and show prudence and patience for both sides.  There needs to be a lot of forgiveness and forget (which I think both sides are doing very well).
As for Starlight,
Why would we enter communion with the EP?  We were never part of his Church, but the Russian Church.  Not only that, but communion with the EP would hurt ROCA and would not be favourble to Russian Orthodox Abroad.  Sorry, but I don't see your reasoning.  Moscow is our mother Church.  
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 10:23:06 AM »

Asteriktos,


I don't think that ROCOR really worries about being in communion with world Orthodoxy.
Some people within ROCOR do so. For example, Bishop Peter Loukianoff.

how can you share what is called the most holy body and blood of Christ as brothers, but distrust someone politically and administratively enough to keep your distance?

Completely agree.

the EP now sees ROCOR as someone who must reconcile with the MP, with the MP being the legit Church body

Well, Ecumenical Patriarchate has not been approached by ROCOR, and therefore obviously they don't want to interject in the process with MP in order not to disturb. The joining of Ecumenical Patriarchate would be more beneficial for ROCOR.

Elisha,

Is this May event in SF?  

Yes, exactly.

Dantxny,

Why would we enter communion with the EP?  We were never part of his Church, but the Russian Church.  Not only that, but communion with the EP would hurt ROCA and would not be favourable to Russian Orthodox Abroad.  Sorry, but I don't see your reasoning.  Moscow is our mother Church.  

When ROCOR will enter MP, this jurisdiction anyway will become in communion with Ecumenical Patriarchate and other Local Orthodox Churches immediately. Joining EP did not hurt any of the jurisdictions, which have done so. Thanks God, when New Gracanica Metropolia (at that time Free Serbian Orthodox Church) joined Serbian Orthodox Church, this event led to great mutually beneficial results as well.
But in the case of MP, the situation is different now due to the problems within MP. Are sure that interests of ROCOR will be taken into consideration?
Regarding the benefits to Russian Orthodox Church, would you please look at the broader picture - potential benefits to Orthodox Church overall.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 12:39:15 PM »

Do we have to wait for the "attack" or can we be pre-emptive and just ban Nathanael now?  

For those not "in the know", do some browsing in the e-cafe archives.
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 02:40:22 PM »

Quote
But in the case of MP, the situation is different now due to the problems within MP. Are sure that interests of ROCOR will be taken into consideration?
Regarding the benefits to Russian Orthodox Church, would you please look at the broader picture - potential benefits to Orthodox Church overall.

Yes, and everything you are saying would apply exactly to the Ukranians.  You're missing the point.  It would be ridiculous and against the mandate of St. Tikhon to have ROCOR join with the EP.  We are the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, not the "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad but Actually partially Greek under the Ecummenical Patriarch."  The Synod was meant to be a temporary situation, within the Russian Church and the Russian Church is doing pretty well by itself thank you very much.  The EP has done his job by saying it is a matter that belongs to the Russian Church to decide.  This is a wise move and the only move.  Therefore, let the daughter Churches of Russia be reunited with her mother Church.  Not a foreign enity in Constantinople.  I am not against the EP and even though I disagree with some of his actions, I still have the highest respect for him.  Thus, please don't broaden the picture to much and look at it within its frames.  It would harm and do a disservice for Constantinople to get involved in a jurisidictional dispute that is not within his local Church.  This would hurt Orthodoxy.  Russia belongs to Russia.  Constantinople to Constantinople.  Let all sides remember that.
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 09:06:38 PM »

Russia belongs to Russia.  Constantinople to Constantinople.  Let all sides remember that.

Kind of...but let us not forget what was said, and agreed to by all parties, in Moscow's tome of Autocephaly:

'Moscow is to be numbered with the other patriarchs, and is to rank and be commemorated after the Patriarch of Jerusalem; he is to be obliged to commemorate the name of the Oecumenical Patriarch and the other patriarchs and to hold and regard as his head and primus the Apostolic throne of Constantinople, as do the other patriarchs.' (Regle, W., Analecta Byzantino-Russica, St. Petersburg, 1891. pg. 87)

Let's also not forget that the boarders of the Church of Moscow was restricted to the extend of the Russian Empire AT THE TIME of the Tome; any actions outside these boundaries represents a violation of both the original Charter and the Canons of the Oecumenical Synods. The proper conduct of the Russians outside of Russia would be to follow the example of Metropolitan Evlogius of Paris and the Russian Orthodox Exarchate in Western Europe, they can keep their customs and practices but owe their loyalties and alliegances to the Great Church of Christ. Any other conduct is clearly uncanonical and unacceptable unless it has the explicit blessing of the Oecumenical Throne and then is only acceptable so long as it continues to have the blessing of His All-Holiness.
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2006, 11:50:27 PM »

Quote
It would be ridiculous and against the mandate of St. Tikhon to have ROCOR join with the EP.  We are the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, not the "Russian Orthodox Church Abroad but Actually partially Greek under the Ecummenical Patriarch." ÂÂ

There lies the contradiction. What is so ridiculous about joining the EP when you yourself said that your church is situated in the Unites States, i.e. "abroad" and not in Russia? ÂÂ
 
Quote
The EP has done his job by saying it is a matter that belongs to the Russian Church to decide. This is a wise move and the only move.

I agree, but...
 
Quote
Therefore, let the daughter Churches of Russia be reunited with her mother Church.

Unification is not the only option that the MP and ROCOR can pursue. For instance, the two parties can agree to have the church in exile (ROCOR) be part of the EP so that eventually, all the churches in the US can unite as one church in that part of the world.
 
Quote
Not a foreign enity in Constantinople. ÂÂ

I wouldn't say that if I belonged to ROCOR.  Geography is actually the weakest argument for the existence of a church outside its motherland. After all, the ROCOR is a "foreign entity" in the US, isn't it?  If it's foreign and only temporary, then the logical alternative is for the foreigners to join the local church.
 
Quote
It would harm and do a disservice for Constantinople to get involved in a jurisidictional dispute that is not within his local Church. This would hurt Orthodoxy. ÂÂ

The USA is not local to Russia. People must not isolate the unification of ROCOR and MP as purely a Russian affair because it goes beyond the borders of Moscow. Also, what you seem to be forgetting is the fact that Orthodoxy in America is divided. The decisions of the bishops will have repercussions in the aspirations of many to have a united church in America. These are but two of the reasons why the EP should be part of the talks.
 
Quote
Russia belongs to Russia. Constantinople to Constantinople. Let all sides remember that.

How about USA to USA?
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2006, 11:52:19 PM »

Kind of...but let us not forget what was said, and agreed to by all parties, in Moscow's tome of Autocephaly:

'Moscow is to be numbered with the other patriarchs, and is to rank and be commemorated after the Patriarch of Jerusalem; he is to be obliged to commemorate the name of the Oecumenical Patriarch and the other patriarchs and to hold and regard as his head and primus the Apostolic throne of Constantinople, as do the other patriarchs.' (Regle, W., Analecta Byzantino-Russica, St. Petersburg, 1891. pg. 87)

Let's also not forget that the boarders of the Church of Moscow was restricted to the extend of the Russian Empire AT THE TIME of the Tome; any actions outside these boundaries represents a violation of both the original Charter and the Canons of the Oecumenical Synods. The proper conduct of the Russians outside of Russia would be to follow the example of Metropolitan Evlogius of Paris and the Russian Orthodox Exarchate in Western Europe, they can keep their customs and practices but owe their loyalties and alliegances to the Great Church of Christ. Any other conduct is clearly uncanonical and unacceptable unless it has the explicit blessing of the Oecumenical Throne and then is only acceptable so long as it continues to have the blessing of His All-Holiness.

I agree.  The ROCOR is beyond the jurisdication of the MP.  See my previous post.
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« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2006, 12:31:42 AM »

Any other conduct is clearly uncanonical and unacceptable...

No, it's not clear.  Clearly, it's not clear. Wink
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« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2006, 01:27:10 AM »

T,
Basically, I'm just going to end this here.  It's lent and I need to hold my tongue because this whole idea is ridiculous and illogical.
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« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2006, 08:46:55 AM »

Do we have to wait for the "attack" or can we be pre-emptive and just ban Nathanael now? ÂÂ

For those not "in the know", do some browsing in the e-cafe archives.

*Shudder*  I was there for  "Brother Nathaniel's" umm threads starting last summer.  Thanks to our mods for banning him so quickly.  Now that I think of it, I'm a little surprised that he was here sooner.  The things he writes are not sensible and his own site is vile with slanderous depictions of EO hierarchs and priests and crudity.

Ebor
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2006, 11:11:07 AM »

IMHO, the juristictional situation in the west, like so many other problems in life, will not be resolved by all of the involved parties "insist on their (perceived) rights".

On one hand, the "EP party" has a point with regard to the conditions of Russia's independence from Constantinople.  However, it is dubious to the extreme to include the Americas in ancient canons which simply cannot be interpreted as including them without being guilty of the most shameless of anachronisms (EP claim over the Americas.)  This is beside the fact that things do change - while the EP became impotent to actually govern much of anything under the Turks (a situation which remains surprisingly unchanged to this day, though the Ottoman Empire is gone), Russia could and did establish real Churches in the Americas, Churches which clearly looked to Moscow as their mother.  What some seem to want is to just pretend that never happened, on the basis of rules which were meant to reflect a reality which has long ceased to exist.  I have big problems with Imperial fantasies, whether they be those of Byzantine-day-dreamers, or Tsarist romanticists.

Frankly, I think when all foreign parties take a step back and only intervene in a supportive (rather than self serving) capacity, we will see the obscene juristictional mess here in the Americas resolved.  Honestly, I think such interference is the biggest impediment to juristictional unity here, not the "ethnics" or anything like this.  This is why, while I have problems with certain policies of the Patriarchate of Antioch, I have to give them some credit - their recent move to basically cut the Antiochian Archdiocese loose, was the right thing to do.  Everyone in the "old world" should sit down, and mutually recognize the independence of the Church (or perhaps, even "Churches") of the Americas - esp. Constantinople and Moscow.  That way, no one has to feel "left out" or demeaned, as sad as it is that such things matter to shepherds of souls.

As for the ROCOR-MP thing, the way things are proceeding is correct.  Again, it's simply a fantasy to not perceive those two parties as being the ones who need to reconcile.  For ROCOR to run to the EP would not only simply multiply our collective problems (as if we need more!), but would outright ignore reality.  If I have a huge falling out with an elder brother (perhaps even for "good" reasons), what on earth would be resolved by me running off and making nice with an estranged even older brother I never even grew up with?
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2006, 12:11:40 PM »

Something to remember...  Now this covers Alaska only, not the continental United States.  When Russian missionaries came to Alaska, Alaska was still a territory of the Russian Empire.  The U.S. purchased Alaska from Russia in 1867(?), decades after the Russian Orthodox Church established a strong presence in Alaska.  Does this foreign relations move between the secular authorities of Russia and the U.S.A. suddenly take the Alaskan Orthodox Church away from Moscow's jurisdiction automatically to the EP's jurisdiction?  I really don't think so.

What is the concept of jurisdiction supposed to serve: the Church, or itself?  Everything that develops within the Church, even the idea of jurisdiction, is to serve the mystery of the Church, the Mystery of our salvation.  When jurisdictionalism seeks to serve itself and not the Church, as I fear it has over the past few centuries with metropolitans and patriarchs asserting their perceived jurisdictional rights, often against each other, then this jurisdictionalism becomes a sin against the Church.  The Church is not about who's in charge where; it is about the salvation of sinners.
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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2006, 01:43:57 PM »

Let's also not forget that the boarders of the Church of Moscow was restricted to the extend of the Russian Empire AT THE TIME of the Tome; any actions outside these boundaries represents a violation of both the original Charter and the Canons of the Oecumenical Synods. The proper conduct of the Russians outside of Russia would be to follow the example of Metropolitan Evlogius of Paris and the Russian Orthodox Exarchate in Western Europe, they can keep their customs and practices but owe their loyalties and alliegances to the Great Church of Christ. Any other conduct is clearly uncanonical and unacceptable unless it has the explicit blessing of the Oecumenical Throne and then is only acceptable so long as it continues to have the blessing of His All-Holiness.

Uh! A lot of neo-papal patriarchalism here  Embarrassed Evlogius was a schism-maker. Do you never read the letter of Metropolitan Philaret about the heretics of Paris? Unacceptable are call heretics  of "brothers" and remove the anathemas against them.

“Increasing without limit their desires to submit to themselves parts of Russia, the Patriarchs of Constantinople have even begun to declare the uncanonicity of the annexation of Kiev to the Moscow Patriarchate, and to declare that the previously existing southern Russian Metropolia of Kiev should be subject to the Throne of Constantinople. Such a point of view is not only clearly expressed in the Tomos of November 13, 1924, in connection with the separation of the Polish Church, but is also quite thoroughly promoted by the Patriarchs. Thus, the Vicar of Metropolitan Eulogius in Paris, who was consecrated with the permission of the Ecumenical Patriarch, has assumed the title of Chersonese; that is to say, Chersonese, which is now in the territory of Russia, is subject to the Ecumenical Patriarch. The next logical step for the Ecumenical Patriarchate would be to declare the whole of Russia as being under the jurisdiction of Constantinople…

 

     “In sum, the Ecumenical Patriarchate, in theory embracing almost the whole universe, and in fact extending its authority only over several dioceses, and in other places having only a superficial supervision and receiving certain revenues for this; persecuted by the government at home and not supported by any governmental authority abroad; having lost its significance as a pillar of truth and having itself become a source of division, and at the same time being possessed by an exorbitant love of power — represents a pitiful spectacle which recalls the worst periods in the history of the See of Constantinople.”

Archbishop John, "The Decline of the Patriarchate of Constantinople", translated in The Orthodox Word, vol. 8, â„– 4 (45), July-August, 1972, p. 175.

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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2006, 01:56:17 PM »

GreekisChristian doesn't believe St John is a saint and so he won't take those words very seriously.

Anastasios
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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2006, 02:00:56 PM »

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Uh! A lot of neo-papal patriarchalism here

Good luck trying to convince him of that. I've tried at least twice, and came up empty  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2006, 02:03:10 PM »

GreekisChristian doesn't believe St John is a saint and so he won't take those words very seriously.

Anastasios

And who are a saint for him? Athenagoras? Or Meletius?  Huh
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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2006, 02:04:00 PM »

Something to remember...  Now this covers Alaska only, not the continental United States.  When Russian missionaries came to Alaska, Alaska was still a territory of the Russian Empire.  The U.S. purchased Alaska from Russia in 1867(?), decades after the Russian Orthodox Church established a strong presence in Alaska.  Does this foreign relations move between the secular authorities of Russia and the U.S.A. suddenly take the Alaskan Orthodox Church away from Moscow's jurisdiction automatically to the EP's jurisdiction?  I really don't think so.

While you are correct in that ecclesiastical authority does not shrink with the fall of empires, neither does it grow with the growth of a Nation. Moscow was given Jurisdiction over the lands defined by the bounds of Russia in the late sixteenth Century, before Russia acquired Alaska. When the Russian State conquered alaska are we to assume then that the authority of Moscow, independent of any council, expanded to include this area? Of course not, such a notion is inconsonant with both the Canons and customs of the Church. It is you, not I, who here argues that the boundaries of the Church change with the boundaries of nations, I reject that notion and accordingly I reject that Moscow ever had proper authority over Alaska.

Quote
What is the concept of jurisdiction supposed to serve: the Church, or itself?  Everything that develops within the Church, even the idea of jurisdiction, is to serve the mystery of the Church, the Mystery of our salvation.  When jurisdictionalism seeks to serve itself and not the Church, as I fear it has over the past few centuries with metropolitans and patriarchs asserting their perceived jurisdictional rights, often against each other, then this jurisdictionalism becomes a sin against the Church.  The Church is not about who's in charge where; it is about the salvation of sinners.

When Churches are unable to follow the established canons and protocols, yes problems arise, and Constantinople has insisted on no right that is not either explicitly granted in the Canons or firmly established in the Traditions of the Christian Church.
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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2006, 02:05:21 PM »

GreekisChristian doesn't believe St John is a saint and so he won't take those words very seriously.

Anastasios

St. John Maximovich, I believe?  The man was a true ascetic warrior and one of the best bishops of the 20th Century.
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2006, 02:08:50 PM »

GreekisChristian doesn't believe St John is a saint and so he won't take those words very seriously.

Anastasios

LOL, you beat me to it, so I wont elaborate too much...except to say that when refering to person in question I may not use the term 'saint' but another 's' word does come to mind Wink

And who are a saint for him? Athenagoras? Or Meletius?  Huh

I respect Meletius as a great patriarch, perhaps a saintly man but more after the likes of Sts. Constantine and Justinian than other more spiritual men. However, in regard to Patriarch Athenagoras, I most certainly believe him to be a saintly man, perhaps the greatest Orthodox Hierarch of the 20th Century. Yet, I will call neither of them Saints as that is for the Patriarchate to decide.
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« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2006, 02:15:23 PM »

While you are correct in that ecclesiastical authority does not shrink with the fall of empires, neither does it grow with the growth of a Nation. Moscow was given Jurisdiction over the lands defined by the bounds of Russia in the late sixteenth Century, before Russia acquired Alaska. When the Russian State conquered alaska are we to assume then that the authority of Moscow, independent of any council, expanded to include this area? Of course not, such a notion is inconsonant with both the Canons and customs of the Church. It is you, not I, who here argues that the boundaries of the Church change with the boundaries of nations, I reject that notion and accordingly I reject that Moscow ever had proper authority over Alaska.

When Churches are unable to follow the established canons and protocols, yes problems arise, and Constantinople has insisted on no right that is not either explicitly granted in the Canons or firmly established in the Traditions of the Christian Church.

So you see the Orthodox Church as a mere institution founded on human models of juridical authority and the rule of the letter of the law, an institution that has the Pope of Constantinople as its head.  For being Orthodox you certainly have a Latin view of the Church.
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« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2006, 02:20:24 PM »

LOL, you beat me to it, so I wont elaborate too much...except to say that when refering to person in question I may not use the term 'saint' but another 's' word does come to mind Wink

I respect Meletius as a great patriarch, perhaps a saintly man but more after the likes of Sts. Constantine and Justinian than other more spiritual men. However, in regard to Patriarch Athenagoras, I most certainly believe him to be a saintly man, perhaps the greatest Orthodox Hierarch of the 20th Century. Yet, I will call neither of them Saints as that is for the Patriarchate to decide.

Great patriarch? A freemasson who was partisan of renovationists? A great patriarch who was the toy of Venizelos?

And Athenagoras: a saintly man who calls the roman catholic heretics of brothers, and left the anathemas against the heretical romanist church?

Give-me a break!
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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2006, 02:22:15 PM »

So you see the Orthodox Church as a mere institution founded on human models of juridical authority and the rule of the letter of the law, an institution that has the Pope of Constantinople as its head.  For being Orthodox you certainly have a Latin view of the Church.

I agree with you brother. This guy is a new latinizer, a Barlaam of Calabria of our times.  Grin
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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2006, 02:23:40 PM »

So you see the Orthodox Church as a mere institution founded on human models of juridical authority and the rule of the letter of the law, an institution that has the Pope of Constantinople as its head.  For being Orthodox you certainly have a Latin view of the Church.

These rules and laws you seem to hate so much were designed to maintain order in the Church, otherwise we would have ended up like the protestants by now. The structure of the Church that I propose isn't some theoretical Ideal but is actually how the polity of the Church has been since Chalcedon. I dont have a 'latin' view of the Church, I have a view of the Church that is actually consonant with the History of the Orthodox Church. How much have you actually studied the history of the polity of the Church? Because if you do study it, you will actually find that Constantinople is far more powerful and authoritative than I have ever tried to maker her out to be. In many ways, over the last thousand years Constantinople has actually exerted a level of authority and influence within the very cities of the ancient patriarchates that far exceedes the actual influence and authority that Rome was able to exert in many places directly within her Patriarchate. I would strongly suggest that you become familiar with the history of orthodox ecclesiology before you start telling me that my ecclesiology is inconsonant with it.
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« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2006, 02:29:07 PM »

Great patriarch? A freemasson who was partisan of renovationists? A great patriarch who was the toy of Venizelos?

He helped modernize parts of the Church, something that was LONG overdue.

Quote
And Athenagoras: a saintly man who calls the roman catholic heretics of brothers, and left the anathemas against the heretical romanist church?

He helped begin the healing process in hope that we may end the schism that is between us and once again restore the ancient communion between us and our western brethren. It was his act of removing the anathemas and taking that step towards restoration of communion that makes him such a great man.

I agree with you brother. This guy is a new latinizer, a Barlaam of Calabria of our times.  Grin

You dont seem to have too good of a grasp of Orthodox Church history either, may I recommend Metropolitan Maximos of Sardis' The Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church, it's available in both Greek and English and is an excellent and highly academic work on the relationship of Constantinople to the Rest of the Church. If you have any questions about his quotes or references the book is very well documented and all such thins are well cited.
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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2006, 02:34:49 PM »

These rules and laws you seem to hate so much were designed to maintain order in the Church, otherwise we would have ended up like the protestants by now. The structure of the Church that I propose isn't some theoretical Ideal but is actually how the polity of the Church has been since Chalcedon. I dont have a 'latin' view of the Church, I have a view of the Church that is actually consonant with the History of the Orthodox Church. How much have you actually studied the history of the polity of the Church? Because if you do study it, you will actually find that Constantinople is far more powerful and authoritative than I have ever tried to maker her out to be.

Yes, far too powerful and authoritative.

Quote
In many ways, over the last thousand years Constantinople has actually exerted a level of authority and influence within the very cities of the ancient patriarchates that far exceedes the actual influence and authority that Rome was able to exert in many places directly within her Patriarchate.

Since you like to quote the canons so much, isn't there a canon that forbids bishops to interfere in the affairs of churches outside of their own diocese or province?

Quote
I would strongly suggest that you become familiar with the history of orthodox ecclesiology before you start telling me that my ecclesiology is inconsonant with it.

Do you have any idea how much I've read on Orthodox ecclesiology?  I suppose not.  Please don't assume that I'm not well versed on this issue.  Of course, I'm not that well-read on Constantinopolitan propaganda, simply because it just doesn't fit the ecclesiology of those outside of the EP's jurisdiction who don't attach the juridical importance to Constantinople that you do.
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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2006, 02:42:36 PM »

Since you like to quote the canons so much, isn't there a canon that forbids bishops to interfere in the affairs of churches outside of their own diocese or province?

And that canon was not violated, it is the Synod of Constantinople, not any individual bishop, that exerted this authority. Since he Council of Chalcedon the Synod of Constantinople has, on many occasions, both deposed and installed Patriarchs of the other Sees. Even today, when the Patriarch of Jerusalem was deposed it was the Synod of Constantinople, not the Synod of Jerusalem, that had the final say.

Quote
Do you have any idea how much I've read on Orthodox ecclesiology?  I suppose not.  Please don't assume that I'm not well versed on this issue.  Of course, I'm not that well-read on Constantinopolitan propaganda, simply because it just doesn't fit the ecclesiology of those outside of the EP's jurisdiction who don't attach the juridical importance to Constantinople that you do.

I really dont think it is possible to study the history of any patriarchate without seeing the influence and authority of Constantinople. Furthermore, I hope you read the actual history and not just the idealistic ramblings of Meyendorff and Schmemann, whose ecclesiology has little basis in any thing that has actually existed in the History of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2006, 02:49:37 PM »

At one time, Rome was the foremost of churches, greater in prestige and authority than Constantinople.  Yet when Rome and all those in her jurisdiction fell into heresy, Orthodoxy survived and continued to grow.  If, God forbid, Constantinople should fall into heresy--exalted claims to universal authority are one of the heresies against the doctrine of the Church that continue to separate Rome from the Orthodox--then Orthodoxy will survive and continue to grow even without Constantinople and all those in her jurisdiction.  If the Mystery of Salvation is ultimately not of this world, then it is not dependent on any particular patriarchal see, even if that see be the ancient see of Constantinople.
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« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2006, 02:56:40 PM »

At one time, Rome was the foremost of churches, greater in prestige and authority than Constantinople.

Perhaps greater in prestige, but since Chalcedon not in authority; for she was not graced by the presence of the Imperial Senate and our God-ordained Emperors.

Quote
Yet when Rome and all those in her jurisdiction fell into heresy, Orthodoxy survived and continued to grow.  If, God forbid, Constantinople should fall into heresy--exalted claims to universal authority are one of the heresies against the doctrine of the Church that continue to separate Rome from the Orthodox--then Orthodoxy will survive and continue to grow even without Constantinople and all those in her jurisdiction.  If the Mystery of Salvation is ultimately not of this world, then it is not dependent on any particular patriarchal see, even if that see be the ancient see of Constantinople.

It should be remembered that the break was first between Rome and Constantinople and all the rest of the Church, in time, followed the Imperial See, which is the standard of Christendom.
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« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2006, 03:02:30 PM »

Perhaps greater in prestige, but since Chalcedon not in authority; for she was not graced by the presence of the Imperial Senate and our God-ordained Emperors.

Yes, but the Byzantine Empire no longer exists, so the Orthodox can no longer build their faith upon her imperial structures.

Quote
It should be remembered that the break was first between Rome and Constantinople and all the rest of the Church, in time, followed the Imperial See, which is the standard of Christendom.

The Church followed the Apostolic Faith from which Rome departed.  This is the standard of Christendom.  All you would do, GiC, is substitute one universal sovereign for another.
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« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2006, 07:12:50 PM »

He helped modernize parts of the Church, something that was LONG overdue.

You are a joker? The Church don't need "modernize" your parts. The Orthodox Church hold the Apostolic Tradition without change anything.

Quote
He helped begin the healing process in hope that we may end the schism that is between us and once again restore the ancient communion between us and our western brethren. It was his act of removing the anathemas and taking that step towards restoration of communion that makes him such a great man.

What schism? The romanists are hereticals. They left the Church, so a schism between us and them dont exist. Restoration of communion with hereticals? Do you want have communion with heretics?

Quote
You dont seem to have too good of a grasp of Orthodox Church history either, may I recommend Metropolitan Maximos of Sardis' The Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church, it's available in both Greek and English and is an excellent and highly academic work on the relationship of Constantinople to the Rest of the Church. If you have any questions about his quotes or references the book is very well documented and all such thins are well cited.

Another neo-papalism propaganda? No, thanks.  Wink Drink yourself this cup  of western influation.  Tongue

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_patriarch.aspx
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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2006, 07:15:19 PM »

The great saint Athenagoras, doing a masonic handshake with one anti-Christ servant:

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« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2006, 08:42:56 PM »

Evlogius was a schism-maker.

Why do you assert this?

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Do you never read the letter of Metropolitan Philaret about the heretics of Paris?

Who are the "heretics of Paris"?  Calling other Orthodox Christians (i.e., Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Fr. John Meyendorff, St. Marie Skobstova(sic?)) heretics in a public forum such as this is probably a good way to get many here to really dislike you.  There are many ROCOR posters here and maybe even a few ROAC people who will agree with you regarding the "Evlogian Schism," but many of us are more "modern" in our viewpoints and will find your approach rather incendiary and alienating, especially so the OCAer's like myself.  So please be careful.
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2006, 08:56:32 PM »

Peter,

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Why do you assert this?

Probably because they read this letter. And if that letter is indeed authentic*, it would give a very different color to Met. Philaret than one normally gets from his public statements (though it would remain only the private opinion of one bishop, nothing more).


*I'm not sure where HOCNA got the letter (it was published in their book on ecumenism), and- I would definately want to know about their source before believing fully that the letter was authentic.
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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2006, 09:17:42 PM »

Why do you assert this?

Who are the "heretics of Paris"?  Calling other Orthodox Christians (i.e., Fr. Alexander Schmemann, Fr. John Meyendorff, St. Marie Skobstova(sic?)) heretics in a public forum such as this is probably a good way to get many here to really dislike you.

There is no doubts about some members of parisian institute are heretical. Some like Bulgakov and others sophiologists. Im not acusing all of them of heretics, but is very clear that the parisian institute was a garden of hereticals.

About A. Schmemann and John Meyendorff:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/pom_lit.aspx
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/commentsschmey.aspx

If Schemann was not a heretic (im not acusing him), you theology (and of the Meyendorff also) are very dubious.

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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2006, 09:18:56 PM »

Peter,

Probably because they read this letter.

Of course. This letter are a very Orthodox stand towards schismatics and heretics.
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2006, 10:35:23 PM »

To at least try to say something vaguely related to the original topic, does anyone here have a link to the schedule/agenda/activities/etc. [IN ENGLISH please]of the upcoming All-Diaspora conference in SF in May for ROCOR?  Thanks.
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« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2006, 11:42:04 PM »

While you are correct in that ecclesiastical authority does not shrink with the fall of empires, neither does it grow with the growth of a Nation. Moscow was given Jurisdiction over the lands defined by the bounds of Russia in the late sixteenth Century, before Russia acquired Alaska. When the Russian State conquered alaska are we to assume then that the authority of Moscow, independent of any council, expanded to include this area? Of course not, such a notion is inconsonant with both the Canons and customs of the Church. It is you, not I, who here argues that the boundaries of the Church change with the boundaries of nations, I reject that notion and accordingly I reject that Moscow ever had proper authority over Alaska.

When Churches are unable to follow the established canons and protocols, yes problems arise, and Constantinople has insisted on no right that is not either explicitly granted in the Canons or firmly established in the Traditions of the Christian Church.

How about when Constantinople is unable or unwilling to follow the Great Commanment of Christ to "baptize all nations"?  Yes, we've heard your arguments based on anachronistic canons, the Ecumenical Synods, etc., but I don't think you have addressed the "ought" or "should" of what HAS happened?  Should Moscow have never even attempted to missionize lands that were part of their nation's boundaries that I'm sure Constantinople was probably unaware existed or even able to reach?  Should Moscow have done all the work and then just given authority over to the EP?  Do you have any historical precedent to backup any cases of another Patriarchate missionizing a land (that may or may not have been outside her boundaries) and then outright given authority over to Constantinople?  What about the Church of Poland or the Church of the Czech lands?  AFAIK, they are both Autocephalous but yet I think I remember you saying that "it shouldn't have happened"...along with possibly Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria and the Church of Greece.  Well, it did and the EP has accepted them as such.  Please respond.
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2006, 12:01:22 AM »

The great saint Athenagoras, doing a masonic handshake with one anti-Christ servant:

Oh golly!  not the masons again!  <Were is that emoticon of banging my head on the keyboard?>  
Just *how* is this supposed to be a "masonic" handshake?  How does one know?  It looks to me like an old man who is careful with his hand.

Ebor
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2006, 02:37:51 AM »

There is no doubts about some members of parisian institute are heretical. Some like Bulgakov and others sophiologists. Im not acusing all of them of heretics, but is very clear that the parisian institute was a garden of hereticals.

About A. Schmemann and John Meyendorff:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/pom_lit.aspx
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/commentsschmey.aspx

If Schemann was not a heretic (im not acusing him), you theology (and of the Meyendorff also) are very dubious.

Yes, I am familiar with what orthodoxinfo.com has to say about the Frs. Schmemann and Meyendorff.  I've read the articles myself, and more than once.

Many posters here have seen me post my views on ROCOR, so what I'm about to say shouldn't be new to them, and I certainly don't want to renew any arguments with them (hint, Anastasios  Wink).  Just let me say that I see ROCOR's canonical foundation being very weak.  (To read a whole thread containing a very good discussion of ROCOR and her place in the Orthodox Church, together with statements of my own viewpoint, just follow this link.)  I don't see how a rogue synod of bishops whose churches had been destroyed, leaving the bishops without churches to rule, could have any canonical authority to rule all Russian Orthodox Christians outside of Russia and thereby interfere in the affairs of local Orthodox churches.  OTOH, Patriarch St. Tikhon actually appointed Metropolitan Evlogy to rule the Russian Orthodox Church in Western Europe, so Metr. Evlogy was actually a legitimate ruling bishop, unlike the rest of the Karlovci Synod.  Metr. Evlogy did not owe any canonical obedience to any synod of Russian bishops abroad, and neither did the bishops of the American Metropolia.  (IMHO, the very Ukase 362 that ROCOR loves to cite as the foundation of its authority could just as validly be cited as authorizing the American Metropolia to govern itself apart from communication with the MP.  It is significant to me that the same Patriarch St. Tikhon who issued this famous Ukase also abolished the first Karlovci Synod, so that the second Karlovci Synod actually convened against the Patriarch's expressed wishes.  Remember also that St. Tikhon understood the situation of the Church in North America, having been its archpastor for many years.)

Again, let me reiterate that all I intend to do with this post is address daher's statements.  I don't want to renew my argument with those with whom I've already argued my viewpoint on the ROCOR issue, so if I've already argued ROCOR with you I would appreciate you not offering a response to this post.


p.s.  Watch out that Pravoslavbob and other fans of Fr. Schmemann here on this forum don't whack you over the head for calling Fr. Schmemann a heretic or calling his theology dubious.  I don't want anyone getting hurt.  Tongue
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2006, 08:16:50 AM »

p.s.  Watch out that Pravoslavbob and other fans of Fr. Schmemann here on this forum don't whack you over the head for calling Fr. Schmemann a heretic or calling his theology dubious.  I don't want anyone getting hurt.  Tongue

One of my best friends are a big fan and apologist of Fr. Schemenann. If he see this, i will be a dead man Tongue

About ROCOR foundation: may is usual to you read "The Truth About the Russian Church Abroad"; by M. Rodzianko. I have one online copy, if you want, rafael.daher@hotmail.com. And maybe be sual too this book.

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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2006, 09:09:20 AM »

Re: the masonic handshake

The thumb is in the wrong place to be a masonic handshake. No I am not a mason, but I have knowledge from my past before becoming Orthodox.

Thomas
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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2006, 11:45:09 AM »

The great patriarchate of Constantinopla:



Patriarch Athenagoras and the so-called pope of Rome.



Patriarch Athenagoras giving the bless with one heretic.



Patriarch Bartholomew doing the same.



Concelebration with the so-called pope Karol Wojtila.



Flowers to the freemason.



With the murder Fidel Castro.

Is with this that ROCOR must commung?
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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2006, 11:57:03 AM »

There is no doubts about some members of parisian institute are heretical. Some like Bulgakov and others sophiologists. Im not acusing all of them of heretics, but is very clear that the parisian institute was a garden of hereticals.

About A. Schmemann and John Meyendorff:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/pom_lit.aspx
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/commentsschmey.aspx

If Schemann was not a heretic (im not acusing him), you theology (and of the Meyendorff also) are very dubious.



Please, your.  Shocked Is possible edit texts here?
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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2006, 11:57:46 AM »

Daxer,
You have mixed things up a bit.
That's not Patriarch Bartolomew, but Patriarch Teoctist.
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« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2006, 12:07:52 PM »

Daxer,
You have mixed things up a bit.
That's not Patriarch Bartolomew, but Patriarch Teoctist.

Sorry brothers. Thanks  Grin

BTW, EP are in comunion with all others ecumenists, like Romenia, Antioch;;;;
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« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2006, 12:11:25 PM »



Oh, now is Bartholomew





 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2006, 12:15:17 PM »

Well, Moscow also is in communion with those you call "the ecumenists". Our patriarch always mentions Patriarch Alexei of Moscow (along with the heads of all of the Orthodox Autocephalos Churches), at every Sunday Liturgy.
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2006, 12:34:32 PM »

One of my best friends are a big fan and apologist of Fr. Schemenann. If he see this, i will be a dead man Tongue

About ROCOR foundation: may is usual to you read "The Truth About the Russian Church Abroad"; by M. Rodzianko. I have one online copy, if you want, rafael.daher@hotmail.com. And maybe be sual too this book.



I've already read this, too.  I did a lengthy study of ROCOR-OCA relations last fall, reading documents from both sides, so I'm pretty well-read on this topic.
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2006, 12:46:41 PM »

How about when Constantinople is unable or unwilling to follow the Great Commanment of Christ to "baptize all nations"?

Ah yes, the sensualistic approach. The fact that you have an emotional sympathy with the actions of Moscow does not change that they were uncanonical and unacceptable.

Quote
Yes, we've heard your arguments based on anachronistic canons, the Ecumenical Synods, etc., but I don't think you have addressed the "ought" or "should" of what HAS happened?  Should Moscow have never even attempted to missionize lands that were part of their nation's boundaries that I'm sure Constantinople was probably unaware existed or even able to reach?

Moscow should have went to Constantinople and asked premission to evangelize lands outside their borders, if Constantinople said no, then they should have refrained; but in all likelyhood Constantinople would have given their blessing, though maintained jurisdiction over her rightful lands. Of course, the Russians were more concerned with expanding their territory and influence than actually evangelizing anyone so this solution would not have met their true goals.

Quote
Should Moscow have done all the work and then just given authority over to the EP?

Authority should never have left the Oecumenical Throne, if Moscow wanted to send out priests out of concern for people's souls and not expanding political power this wouldn't have even been an issue.

Quote
Do you have any historical precedent to backup any cases of another Patriarchate missionizing a land (that may or may not have been outside her boundaries) and then outright given authority over to Constantinople?

The other patriarchates throughout history tended to know their places and didn't intrude on the lands of the other patriarchates. The one exception to this is the disputes beteween Old and New Rome...and we know where that lead. But with that said, I can think of one related issue. During part of the Ottoman rule Antioch was unable to govern the Metropolis of Aleppo, because of this the Oecumenical Patriarchate would oversee this Metropolis and the Metropolitan would sit on the Patriarchal Synod of Constantinople, this change remained in effect for hundreds of years. However, when the situation had normalized and the opportunity presented itself, the Oecumenical Throne would transfer this Metropolis back to Antioch, even against the express wishes of the sitting Metropolitan, as Constantinople desired to protect the ancient rights and territories of all the Sees.

Quote
What about the Church of Poland or the Church of the Czech lands?  AFAIK, they are both Autocephalous but yet I think I remember you saying that "it shouldn't have happened"...along with possibly Serbia, Albania, Bulgaria and the Church of Greece.  Well, it did and the EP has accepted them as such.  Please respond.

I have no problem with the Church of Serbia, they are amongst the few who went about originally obtaining autocephaly in an appropriate and Christian manner. As with the others, perhaps the autocephalies should some day be revoked, but not until the political situation better allows it. The autocephalies of the 19th century have dealt a near fatal blow to the Church, the worst such blow to Christianity since the fall of the City. They are the source of division, strife, and conflict. But, we should not create more problems than necessary by revoking the autocephalies at the wrong time, I agree that we should recognize them while expedient, always keeping in mind what is best for the Church, as our Patriarch does. Though as these lands are, by ancient canon and custom, under the authority of Constantinople, she can in the future, if she deems appropriate, revoke any autocephaly save those of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Cyprus...which can only be altered, like the posistion of Constantinople herself, by an Oecumenical Synod. (which is amongst the reasons that we have never actually deposed the Bishop of Rome or installed an 'orthodox' Bishop of Rome, we simply lack the authority to do so without an Oecumenical Synod, making the Current Pope the legitimate Bishop of Rome, even if out of Communion with the Rest of the Church)



BTW, EP are in comunion with all others ecumenists, like Romenia, Antioch;;;;

Yes, also known as the Christian Church. To be contrasted with the heterodox, which are those are not in Communion with the Oecumenical Throne.
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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2006, 01:19:23 PM »

Ah yes, the sensualistic approach. The fact that you have an emotional sympathy with the actions of Moscow does not change that they were uncanonical and unacceptable.
Not sensualistic at all (or did you mean sensationalistic?)...but a tad baiting I suppose.  It still doesn't mean my charges can't be true.  Prove it.

Moscow should have went to Constantinople and asked premission to evangelize lands outside their borders, if Constantinople said no, then they should have refrained; but in all likelyhood Constantinople would have given their blessing, though maintained jurisdiction over her rightful lands. Of course, the Russians were more concerned with expanding their territory and influence than actually evangelizing anyone so this solution would not have met their true goals.

Authority should never have left the Oecumenical Throne, if Moscow wanted to send out priests out of concern for people's souls and not expanding political power this wouldn't have even been an issue.

OK.  But when?  When are they to know when it changes from supporting your own diaspora or flock that is doing activities outside of normal borders to "evangelizing"?

The italicized portion is pure speculation and conjecture.  Back it up....but I don't think you can find anything official stating this ulterior motive.

The other patriarchates throughout history tended to know their places and didn't intrude on the lands of the other patriarchates. The one exception to this is the disputes beteween Old and New Rome...and we know where that lead. But with that said, I can think of one related issue. During part of the Ottoman rule Antioch was unable to govern the Metropolis of Aleppo, because of this the Oecumenical Patriarchate would oversee this Metropolis and the Metropolitan would sit on the Patriarchal Synod of Constantinople, this change remained in effect for hundreds of years. However, when the situation had normalized and the opportunity presented itself, the Oecumenical Throne would transfer this Metropolis back to Antioch, even against the express wishes of the sitting Metropolitan, as Constantinople desired to protect the ancient rights and territories of all the Sees.
Oh really??  So what about the Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Antiochians, Albanians (and others?) that have their own bishops here (in the US).  This seems rather obvious that "other patriarchates" are imposing on the Phanar's "barbarian lands."

I have no problem with the Church of Serbia, they are amongst the few who went about originally obtaining autocephaly in an appropriate and Christian manner. As with the others, perhaps the autocephalies should some day be revoked, but not until the political situation better allows it. The autocephalies of the 19th century have dealt a near fatal blow to the Church, the worst such blow to Christianity since the fall of the City. They are the source of division, strife, and conflict. But, we should not create more problems than necessary by revoking the autocephalies at the wrong time, I agree that we should recognize them while expedient, always keeping in mind what is best for the Church, as our Patriarch does. Though as these lands are, by ancient canon and custom, under the authority of Constantinople, she can in the future, if she deems appropriate, revoke any autocephaly save those of Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Cyprus...which can only be altered, like the posistion of Constantinople herself, by an Oecumenical Synod. (which is amongst the reasons that we have never actually deposed the Bishop of Rome or installed an 'orthodox' Bishop of Rome, we simply lack the authority to do so without an Oecumenical Synod, making the Current Pope the legitimate Bishop of Rome, even if out of Communion with the Rest of the Church)
See above comment regarding the Serbs.  "...dealt a near fatal blow..."  Riiiiiiight.  Roll Eyes  So you are obviously much wiser than those Patriachs of Constantinople who DO accept the Autocephaly of those newer Churches.  Don't you think that sounds rather hypocritical on your part?  Does your Patriarch always know what is best for the Church or not?  

I'll believe any revoking of autocephalies when it happens.  Until then it is inane academic speculation.

Yes, also known as the Christian Church. To be contrasted with the heterodox, which are those are not in Communion with the Oecumenical Throne.
Hmmmm...again, how is being in Communion with the Ecumenical Throne again the definition of Orthodoxy given that several of their Patriarchs have been declared heretics at various times throughout history?
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« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2006, 01:21:30 PM »

daher,
Pictures may be worth 1000 words, but they don't necessarily PROVE anything.
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« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2006, 01:29:24 PM »

daher,
Pictures may be worth 1000 words, but they don't necessarily PROVE anything.

Pictures don't prove anything? And the actions of EP? And the ecumenist attitude of EP? And the actions and phrases of Met. Zizoulas?

Give-me a break! If these pictures don't prove the heresy of ecumenisn in EP, i don't know what you want acept as prove.
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« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2006, 01:34:38 PM »

Pictures don't prove anything? And the actions of EP? And the ecumenist attitude of EP? And the actions and phrases of Met. Zizoulas?

Give-me a break! If these pictures don't prove the heresy of ecumenisn in EP, i don't know what you want acept as prove.

I'll let those here of the more juridical sort poke holes in the concept of pictures proving things.  I'll just say that pictures w/o context don't hold too much water.  What is the term...circumstantial evidence?
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« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2006, 01:34:51 PM »

Pictures don't prove anything? And the actions of EP? And the ecumenist attitude of EP? And the actions and phrases of Met. Zizoulas?

Give-me a break! If these pictures don't prove the heresy of ecumenisn in EP, i don't know what you want acept as prove.

But pictures can be so easily taken out of context, and--worse yet--can be cut and pasted to another totally unrelated context.
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« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2006, 01:36:20 PM »

Quote
Give-me a break! If these pictures don't prove the heresy of ecumenisn in EP, i don't know what you want acept as prove.

In what way is the type of ecumenism that they are engaging in heretical? For example, when people say that Arianism is heretical, what is meant is that the Church hold to certain beliefs which Arianism contradicts, such as the orthodox belief that Jesus was begotten and not created, or the orthodox belief that there was never a time when Jesus was not. Thus, if Arius or Joe or Abram says that Jesus was created shortly after time began, he can be considered a heretic. So then, by what criteria are you judging the the people in the pictures as being heretics? If they are heretics, then explain what specific transgression makes them heretics, and how you came to conclude that that transgression was heretical? By what criteria (or criterion) do you judge them?
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« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2006, 01:40:36 PM »

It seems that shaking hands with the Pope is a grevious heresy Grin
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« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2006, 01:45:19 PM »

Daher, spam isn't Lenten.  Tongue
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« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2006, 01:55:11 PM »

But pictures can be so easily taken out of context, and--worse yet--can be cut and pasted to another totally unrelated context.

Unrelated context? So, exist some context to embrace the so-called pope of Rome and call them of "brother", or worst, call him of bishop?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2006, 01:58:19 PM »

In what way is the type of ecumenism that they are engaging in heretical? For example, when people say that Arianism is heretical, what is meant is that the Church hold to certain beliefs which Arianism contradicts, such as the orthodox belief that Jesus was begotten and not created, or the orthodox belief that there was never a time when Jesus was not. Thus, if Arius or Joe or Abram says that Jesus was created shortly after time began, he can be considered a heretic. So then, by what criteria are you judging the the people in the pictures as being heretics? If they are heretics, then explain what specific transgression makes them heretics, and how you came to conclude that that transgression was heretical? By what criteria (or criterion) do you judge them?

Anti-ecumenists--and I do include myself in this group--believe that much of what passes for ecumenism today is the relativistic belief that all Christian religions are equally salvific and that all Christians regardless of confession are all members of the same Church.  The Orthodox Church, however, has always taught that it alone is the Church of Christ and that it alone possesses the fullness of the means of salvation.  The Church cannot be divided.  Modern ecumenism would require the Orthodox to believe that the Church can be divided or that the Orthodox Church does not preach the fullness of Christian Truth.  This is why most Orthodox consider modern ecumenism to be a heresy.

OTOH, the only ecumenism that the Orthodox can support is the return of all Christians to the Orthodox Faith.
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« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2006, 02:01:43 PM »

Unrelated context? So, exist some context to embrace the so-called pope of Rome and call them of "brother", or worst, call him of bishop?  Roll Eyes

All I'm saying is that I don't know the context of these pictures, nor am I qualified to judge the intent of the participants in these pictures, because the pictures don't show this.  The photos just don't provide enough information for me to make a reasoned judgment of what they signify.
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« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2006, 02:02:41 PM »

By what criteria (or criterion) do you judge them?

First, im not judgind them. Im only talking about the ecumenists actions of EP, and because this, the Orthodox Christian must apart from them.

Im using the criterion of the Holy Fathers and the Holy Canons of the Only True Church.

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles

"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:

"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics*, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

Canon XXXIII of Laodicia

"One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."


* Like the Patriarch Bartolomew on the devil see's, the Vatican.

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« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2006, 02:04:12 PM »

It seems that shaking hands with the Pope is a grevious heresy Grin

Pray with him is against the Holy Canons. Pray in your church too.
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« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2006, 02:09:26 PM »

Quote
Like the Patriarch Bartolomew on the devil see's, the Vatican.
* Is this JW or SDA litterature?
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« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2006, 02:13:32 PM »

First, im not judgind them. Im only talking about the ecumenists actions of EP, and because this, the Orthodox Christian must apart from them.

Im using the criterion of the Holy Fathers and the Holy Canons of the Only True Church.

Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles

"Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed."

Canon LXV Of the Holy Apostles:

"If any clergymen, or laymen, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics*, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated."

Canon XXXIII of Laodicia

"One must not join in prayer with heretics or schismatics."


* Like the Patriarch Bartolomew on the devil see's, the Vatican.



Not to suddenly vacillate and agree with your assessment of the photos, for I still don't agree.  However, to pray with heretics in a heretic place of worship--it's OK to invite a heretic to pray with us in an Orthodox service as long as we don't allow the heretic to receive the grace of our Sacraments--is to essentially validate the heresy and say to the heretics with whom we are praying that their faith is not in fact heretical and that their services communicate the same grace given by our Orthodox services.

I do agree with Fr. Seraphim Rose, though, that we Orthodox are too quick to apply the term heretic to individual non-Orthodox Christians.  Many non-Orthodox Christians are indeed very sincere in living the Christian life as best they know it and are very committed to pursuing Truth.  Most of them just are not at all aware that they've grown up in an atmosphere of deception and don't know any better than to live in accordance with the heresies they've been taught.  Can we fault such sincere followers of Christ for something totally beyond their control?  IMHO, we should reserve the term heretic for only those individuals who know what the Church teaches and continue to proclaim their own doctrines in defiance of the Church's authority.
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« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2006, 02:29:41 PM »

IMHO, we should reserve the term heretic for only those individuals who know what the Church teaches and continue to proclaim their own doctrines in defiance of the Church's authority.

Like the popes, who knows what the Church teaches and work against the Church.  Grin
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« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2006, 02:29:56 PM »

LOL, you beat me to it, so I wont elaborate too much...except to say that when refering to person in question I may not use the term 'saint' but another 's' word does come to mind Wink

Sorry, I've been a little slow to get to this, but please do not disparage Saints of the Church in this way, despite your personal feelings.
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« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2006, 02:38:56 PM »

Greekis"Christian",

Quote
LOL, you beat me to it, so I wont elaborate too much...except to say that when refering to person in question I may not use the term 'saint' but another 's' word does come to mind

Disgusting.  Fortunately, the grace of God and the ecumenicity of the Church are already showing that your brand of hellenic-papism is not part of the dogmatic constitution of the Church.

Quote
Perhaps greater in prestige, but since Chalcedon not in authority; for she was not graced by the presence of the Imperial Senate and our God-ordained Emperors.

Ha!  And hasn't occured to you that there hasn't been a Roman Empire, Imperial Throne, or Imperial Senate since the fiftheenth century?!  Funny, how historical context only seems to matter when it serves your perverse ecclessiology.

Quote
It should be remembered that the break was first between Rome and Constantinople and all the rest of the Church, in time, followed the Imperial See, which is the standard of Christendom.

Yes, just as Rome once was viewed as a standard of Orthodoxy.  IOW. there is nothing in this which is not beyond modifacation, either by circumstance or (God forbid) the EP becoming the seat of an anti-Christ (which has happened, and may happen again.)  IOW. purity of confession is the ultimate criterion underpinning ecclessiastical authority.  Lacking this, the EP becomes merely the Archlayman of Constantinople.

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« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2006, 02:46:03 PM »

There is no canon, deposition, anathema, excommunication, or suspension within Orthodoxy that is used without first being applied by a competent ecclesiastical body; on the laity, the spiritual father/parish priest and their own bishop (not just any 'ol one), on the priests, their own bishop or synod, on the bishops, the synod of their Patriarchate/Autocephalous Church, and on the Patriarchs, Their own synods or the Synod of Constantinople (as the seat of appeals) or an Ecumenical Synod (over anyone).  So there is no condemnation of the EP, or Metr. Zizoulas, without a synod to do so.  

If you feel they are in heresy, then do what you can personally to separate yourself; but chose your words and accusations wisely, for those who falsely accuse someone of heresy or apostasy face as great a punishment as they would have had brought upon their targets.
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« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2006, 02:50:16 PM »

LOL, you beat me to it, so I wont elaborate too much...except to say that when refering to person in question I may not use the term 'saint' but another 's' word does come to mind Wink

I just find it rather interesting that because so many people in the ROCOR hated and persecuted St. John Maximovich, it was actually Greek Orthodox Americans under the authority of the EP who venerated St. John first.  The ROCOR saw this and decided that it was high time they look into officially glorifying Archbishop John as a Saint.
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« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2006, 02:51:30 PM »

I just find it rather interesting that because so many people in the ROCOR hated and persecuted St. John Maximovich, it was actually Greek Orthodox Americans under the authority of the EP who venerated St. John first.  The ROCOR saw this and decided that it was high time they look into officially glorifying Archbishop John as a Saint.  

I've noticed this as well; I've come across many in the GOA who venerate St. John, and have done so for awhile.

But because he's not 'official' in our Patriarchate (and there's a seperate discussion - the local nature of the veneration of most saints), let GiC speculate all he wants (just be careful not to be disparaging; be respectful please).  If he's right, more power to him, and if he's wrong, St. John is still praying for his salvation anyway - why not take his example?
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« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2006, 02:54:09 PM »

There is no canon, deposition, anathema, excommunication, or suspension within Orthodoxy that is used without first being applied by a competent ecclesiastical body

Exactly.
Personally, I would include both St. Archbishop John Maximovich and Patriarch Athenogoras in top (5) Orthodox hierarchs of XX century. And I don't see contradictory there.
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« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2006, 02:57:51 PM »

To at least try to say something vaguely related to the original topic, does anyone here have a link to the schedule/agenda/activities/etc. [IN ENGLISH please]of the upcoming All-Diaspora conference in SF in May for ROCOR?  Thanks.

Elisha,
I just found this. I believe it is a brand new update.
http://www.sobor2006.com/ivall-diasporaco.php
Good luck with your singing on this event!
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« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2006, 02:58:17 PM »

I've noticed this as well; I've come across many in the GOA who venerate St. John, and have done so for awhile.

But because he's not 'official' in our Patriarchate (and there's a seperate discussion - the local nature of the veneration of most saints), let GiC speculate all he wants (just be careful not to be disparaging; be respectful please).  If he's right, more power to him, and if he's wrong, St. John is still praying for his salvation anyway - why not take his example?

I actually have a couple of friends who credit the miraculous survival--they really think of the miracle as more of a resurrection from the dead--of their newborn infant to the intercessions of St. John realized through oil from the vigil lamp at his tomb.  This couple is now active in a GOA parish--a missionary parish that is in fact Greek in name and jurisdiction only--but they were a few years ago members of my own OCA parish.  (They transferred to the GOA parish to be closer to her parents.)
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« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2006, 03:52:38 PM »

Pictures don't prove anything? And the actions of EP? And the ecumenist attitude of EP? And the actions and phrases of Met. Zizoulas?

Give-me a break! If these pictures don't prove the heresy of ecumenisn in EP, i don't know what you want acept as prove.

Daher, by this and other comments you are supporting schisms. That is not Orthodox! As a faithful of Ecumenical Patriarchate, I have not seen any heresy in publicly known actions of my Synod and my hierarchs.
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« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2006, 04:16:00 PM »

Daher, by this and other comments you are supporting schisms. That is not Orthodox! As a faithful of Ecumenical Patriarchate, I have not seen any heresy in publicly known actions of my Synod and my hierarchs.

Daher,

I haven't yet asked, but I think it's important to our discussion.  What jurisdiction do you call home?
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« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2006, 04:21:25 PM »

Daher,

    Please don't be throwing around words like heresy so freely when discussing the EP or any other jurisdiction.

All,

This thread is very close to being closed and official warning issued.  The room is Free For All, and it is moderated, but it's not ROMPER ROOM.
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« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2006, 05:16:14 PM »

Elisha,
I just found this. I believe it is a brand new update.
http://www.sobor2006.com/ivall-diasporaco.php
Good luck with your singing on this event!
vielan dank.  I get nervous in front of unfamilar people, sometimes people I know who I haven't seen in a while, singing the melody solo and "crowds"/"audiences".  If I can learn the music (and the words to the best of my ability) and RELAX, then I should be fine.  Thanks again for the info.
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« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2006, 05:29:23 PM »

Daher,

I haven't yet asked, but I think it's important to our discussion.  What jurisdiction do you call home?

I would be HOCNA or ROAC...is ROCiE different from ROCOR?  I thought ROCiE=ROCA=ROCOR="The Synod".
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« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2006, 05:53:42 PM »

I would be HOCNA or ROAC...is ROCiE different from ROCOR?  I thought ROCiE=ROCA=ROCOR="The Synod".

Most often I have heard ROCiE refer to the Synod under Metr. Vitaly, as this used to be his Synod's official title at one time if I recall correctly.  ROCA=ROCOR as I have heard it.  ROAC though is seperate from ROCiE (Vitaly).
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« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2006, 07:18:25 PM »

Sorry, I've been a little slow to get to this, but please do not disparage Saints of the Church in this way, despite your personal feelings.

Many here have attacked some who I would veiw to be the greatest Bishops of the Orthodox Church in the 20th Century, Patriarchs Meletios, Athenagoras, and Bartholomew...am I not even allowed to make an indirect comment about my personal opinion of a man who openly slandered the Great Church of Christ and these patriarchs who I hold as great and holy men? Furthermore, my implication that he was a schismatic, and died in schism against the Church of Christ, is not mere personal opinion, but rather objective fact.

This I say not only from the perspective of the most Holy and Oecumenical Throne of Constantinople, but also in defence of the rights of Moscow and in defence of the great Patriarchs of Moscow who lead the Church of Russia successfully through persecution and difficult times, whose names and memories should be blessed and not slandered. For the patriarchs against which John of San Francisco schismed have NOT been declared heretics by any synod of the Church; furthermore, none of the several autocephalous Church even broke communion with the Patriarchate of Moscow over these affairs. Thus, we can conclude that in the opinion of the Christian Church these Patriarchs were NOT heretics, as many who slander their blessed memories would lead us to believe, rather they were faithful and holy Christian Bishops, leading their flocks in times of travail. Since this is manifest, I myself need to make no proclamation, for any I would make would pale in comparison to those of the fathers; however, I shall allow the fathers to speak on this issue: it was decreed in the 15th canon of the First-Second Synod under St. Photius the Great, in the Year of our Lord 861, and proclaimed by all the Bishops of the Eastern Church:

'The rules laid down with reference to Presbyters and Bishops and Metro­politans are still more applicable to Patriarchs. So that in case any Presbyter or Bishop or Metropolitan dares to secede or apostatize from the communion of his own Patriarch, and fails to mention the latter’s name in accordance with custom duly fixed and ordained, in the divine Mystagogy, but, before a conciliar verdict has been pronounced and has passed judgment against him, creates a schism, the holy Council has decreed that this person shall be held an alien to every priestly function if only he be convicted of having committed this trans­gression of the law. Accordingly, these rules have been sealed and ordained as respecting those persons who under the pretext of charges against their own presidents stand aloof, and create a schism, and disrupt the union of the Church.'

I trust that all here understand the implications of Schism, which has here been, as above demonstrated, clearly committed, and that it would be unnecessary for me to quote the fathers to demonstrate what a grave offence, against our Lord and his Most Sacred Body, schism truly is.
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« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2006, 12:10:47 AM »

The fact that St John's veneration has already spread to other Orthodox Churches is a far more Orthodox argument for his sainthood than your academic and canonical arguments are against it.  You are offending many posters, especially GOA and OCA members (believe me, I am on the receiving end) and we are just not going to let this continue.  The thread is closed.

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