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Poll
Question: What would best describe your beliefs about how the universe and man came to be?
Young Earth Creationism (e.g., earth is less than 10,000 years old) - 16 (13.1%)
Other Creationism (e.g., the "days" in Genesis could each signify very long periods) - 22 (18%)
Theistic Intelligent Design (e.g., we were created by a God, and I *know* which God) - 17 (13.9%)
Deistic Intelligent Design (e.g., the universe was created by God, though I'm not sure which version of God most accurately describes Him) - 1 (0.8%)
Vanilla Intelligent Design (e.g., there was some type of designer, though I don't know if it was a supernatural entity) - 1 (0.8%)
Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution - 10 (8.2%)
Other Evolutionary Theories - 0 (0%)
None of These - 2 (1.6%)
A Mixture of These - 10 (8.2%)
Theistic Evolution - 33 (27%)
Not Sure - 10 (8.2%)
Total Voters: 122

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Author Topic: Evolutionist, ID, or Creationist? Cast Your Vote!  (Read 23828 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #225 on: December 25, 2006, 11:25:21 PM »

Awww, no choice for I could care less? Wink

Anastasios

I'm right there with ya.  I used to promote and debate my preferred view against others, but it certainly didn't help me out spiritually (or anyone else for that matter). 
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« Reply #226 on: December 25, 2006, 11:44:44 PM »

I guess it all depends. I would say that the evolution issue played an important part in my "spiritual" (ie. despiritualizing) journey. It'd be impossible to quantify exactly how much of an effect it had, but if I had to put a number on it I'd say that it was probably 10% of the reason I became disillusioned with Christianity. I should add though that it wasn't just the evolution vs. creation debate by itself, but also the anthropological beliefs (in the Scriptures and Church Fathers) that seemed to be based primarily on the Genesis text.
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« Reply #227 on: December 25, 2006, 11:53:15 PM »

Could someone direct me to a forum where practicing Orthodox Christians weigh in on such subjects?

Thank you so much!
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« Reply #228 on: December 26, 2006, 12:04:31 AM »

Euphrosynoscafe.com. You'll fit in well there. Tell them Justin sent ya.
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« Reply #229 on: December 26, 2006, 08:07:03 PM »

Euphrosynoscafe.com. You'll fit in well there. Tell them Justin sent ya.

That's a forum not for Orthodox Christians, but Old Calendarist fringe groups.

Peace.
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« Reply #230 on: December 26, 2006, 08:09:32 PM »

But your argument is a red herring, not to mention an appeal to authority (2 fallacies).

I don't see where in Darwin's theory one could find support for atheism.
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« Reply #231 on: December 26, 2006, 09:21:05 PM »

That's a forum not for Orthodox Christians, but Old Calendarist fringe groups.

Asteriktos was having a bit of fun with BoredMeeting.
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« Reply #232 on: August 27, 2007, 09:42:42 AM »

I don't understand this at all. Why don't we all start discussing our "beliefs" about how moving cars came to be? Smiley Or these shining light bulbs... what's the best way to characterize my "beliefs" about why they shine?

I believe in God. I believe that God is the author of all things. But when I think or talk or write about biological evolution, I - a biology teacher - simply know that there is no room for theology there, just like there is no room and no necessity in any theology when a person talks or thinks or writes about the work of the internal combustion engine or of an electric circuit. We know facts. Or... we don't. And in this case, we are not "creationists" or, say, "light-bulb-shines-due-to-the-invisible-hand-of-God-ists," but, er,... ignoramuses.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #233 on: August 28, 2007, 12:24:06 AM »

I don't understand this at all. Why don't we all start discussing our "beliefs" about how moving cars came to be? Smiley Or these shining light bulbs... what's the best way to characterize my "beliefs" about why they shine?

I believe in God. I believe that God is the author of all things. But when I think or talk or write about biological evolution, I - a biology teacher - simply know that there is no room for theology there, just like there is no room and no necessity in any theology when a person talks or thinks or writes about the work of the internal combustion engine or of an electric circuit. We know facts. Or... we don't. And in this case, we are not "creationists" or, say, "light-bulb-shines-due-to-the-invisible-hand-of-God-ists," but, er,... ignoramuses.  Embarrassed
George,

I don't object to a belief in evolution, for I see evidence for it's validity as a scientific theory.  Though I do have a problem with many of the humanist philosophies that have been built on evolutionary theory--that's a topic totally separate from the science of evolution--I don't see evolutionary theory and Orthodox Christian faith in the creative work of God as diametrically opposed to each other. 

That with which I do take issue is your insistence that evolution is a fact.  AISI, evolutionary theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is the best, most scientific explanation of the origins of life based on the evidence we have before us.  But to be scientifically honest, I just don't think we can call evolution an established fact.  Who knows?  Scientists may discover something ten, twenty, thirty, or even a hundred years from now that shakes our belief in evolution to the very core.  This potential falsifiability is what makes evolutionary theory truly scientific; calling evolution a fact does not--it just makes you dogmatic, and dogma is not falsifiable.

That said, I can't stand creationists, either.  Too much ignorant fear-mongering...  Our God is certainly big enough to withstand the scrutiny of modern science, and I would hope our faith is, too.
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« Reply #234 on: August 28, 2007, 12:32:30 AM »

I don't understand this at all. Why don't we all start discussing our "beliefs" about how moving cars came to be? Smiley Or these shining light bulbs... what's the best way to characterize my "beliefs" about why they shine?

I believe in God. I believe that God is the author of all things. But when I think or talk or write about biological evolution, I - a biology teacher - simply know that there is no room for theology there, just like there is no room and no necessity in any theology when a person talks or thinks or writes about the work of the internal combustion engine or of an electric circuit. We know facts. Or... we don't. And in this case, we are not "creationists" or, say, "light-bulb-shines-due-to-the-invisible-hand-of-God-ists," but, er,... ignoramuses.  Embarrassed

Hear, Hear! Thanks for the dose of common sense.
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« Reply #235 on: August 28, 2007, 12:41:50 AM »

That with which I do take issue is your insistence that evolution is a fact.  AISI, evolutionary theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is the best, most scientific explanation of the origins of life based on the evidence we have before us.  But to be scientifically honest, I just don't think we can call evolution an established fact.  Who knows?  Scientists may discover something ten, twenty, thirty, or even a hundred years from now that shakes our belief in evolution to the very core.  This potential falsifiability is what makes evolutionary theory truly scientific; calling evolution a fact does not--it just makes you dogmatic, and dogma is not falsifiable.

Science openly admits that it lacks a complete and total understanding of the evolutionary mechanisms that created life and the cosmological forces that created the universe. But it knows that in these theories are the basis of truth, the basis of fact...it is merely the details that have yet to be worked out.

As for creationism, it is merely mythology...there is not in it even a glimmer of fact (whether there is truth is dependent on your personal convictions, but it is utterly devoid of fact). I guess in the end, I should avoid this 'debate', because I cannot honestly take creationists seriously...I'd just laugh in their face. Undecided
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« Reply #236 on: August 28, 2007, 07:50:36 AM »

George,

I don't object to a belief in evolution, for I see evidence for it's validity as a scientific theory.  Though I do have a problem with many of the humanist philosophies that have been built on evolutionary theory--that's a topic totally separate from the science of evolution--I don't see evolutionary theory and Orthodox Christian faith in the creative work of God as diametrically opposed to each other. 

That with which I do take issue is your insistence that evolution is a fact.  AISI, evolutionary theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is the best, most scientific explanation of the origins of life based on the evidence we have before us.  But to be scientifically honest, I just don't think we can call evolution an established fact.  Who knows?  Scientists may discover something ten, twenty, thirty, or even a hundred years from now that shakes our belief in evolution to the very core.  This potential falsifiability is what makes evolutionary theory truly scientific; calling evolution a fact does not--it just makes you dogmatic, and dogma is not falsifiable.

That said, I can't stand creationists, either.  Too much ignorant fear-mongering...  Our God is certainly big enough to withstand the scrutiny of modern science, and I would hope our faith is, too.

Peter,

Thank you for your reply. What I was trying to say, though, is that evolution - if defined as the change in the genetic makeup of populations, - is a fact. You can objectively measure frequencies of alleles in populations, and objectively verify that they, indeed, change. You can also tie this change to factors such as mutations, natural selection, genetic drift, migrations, and non-stochastic sexual replication (mating preferences). This real, factual, verifiable evolution may or may not be followed by speciation (depending on the degree of isolation of the two independently evolving populations).

The THEORY is not that evolution exists or not (it does) but that life on our planet, in its totality, is being constantly diversified by the above described process of evolution (change in the genetic makeup of populations). That, indeed, is a theory (of course). But there are many other similarly valid, serious, productive theories in science - for example, the atomic-molecular theory of the structure of matter (yes, a theory!), the theory of electromagnetic field, the theory of gravity, the cellular theory in biology, the clonal selection theory in immunology, the so-called "danger theory" in the present day "postmodernist" immunology (my field), and other.
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« Reply #237 on: May 20, 2014, 09:18:24 AM »

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.
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« Reply #238 on: May 20, 2014, 09:24:21 AM »

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Bible was written by God. Only that it was produced by human beings.
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« Reply #239 on: May 20, 2014, 09:29:15 AM »

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Bible was written by God. Only that it was produced by human beings.

Not surprised to read this from you.

The Bible is God's inspiration to His godly men to write what He wanted them to write. I know that you don't even believe in that, and I really don't care.

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« Reply #240 on: May 20, 2014, 09:36:21 AM »

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Bible was written by God. Only that it was produced by human beings.

Not surprised to read this from you.

The Bible is God's inspiration to His godly men to write what He wanted them to write. I know that you don't even believe in that, and I really don't care.



I absolutely believe that. Understanding what someone writes, and making a strawman and knocking it down are two different things. What I don't believe is making conclusions on reality based on no substantive evidence.
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« Reply #241 on: May 20, 2014, 10:00:19 AM »

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Bible was written by God. Only that it was produced by human beings.

Not surprised to read this from you.

The Bible is God's inspiration to His godly men to write what He wanted them to write. I know that you don't even believe in that, and I really don't care.


the Bible is not a magic book or a Quran; it's the inspired word of God for our salvation.  Young or old earth is not a necessary dogma for our salvation.
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« Reply #242 on: May 20, 2014, 10:15:59 AM »

If you told me few months ago...

In 2006 I voted for "Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution." I just now changed that to "a mixture of these" so as to include God.
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« Reply #243 on: May 20, 2014, 10:19:55 AM »

If you told me few months ago...

In 2006 I voted for "Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution." I just now changed that to "theistic evolution."

Me too! (in regard to the vote)

What is "Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution"? And why did this song from Mary Poppins get stuck into my head when I read this?
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« Reply #244 on: May 20, 2014, 10:23:41 AM »

I did a ninja edit to be more vague Smiley but same position.

I think I meant "Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution" to just be some kind of catch-all for naturalistic evolutionary theories not taking into account or making mention of a God, intelligent designer, special creator, or what have you.
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« Reply #245 on: May 20, 2014, 10:30:54 AM »

I did a ninja edit to be more vague Smiley but same position.

I think I meant "Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution" to just be some kind of catch-all for naturalistic evolutionary theories not taking into account or making mention of a God, intelligent designer, special creator, or what have you.

Thanks. I am guessing that I thought it meant modern and up-to-date.

Also,

How is it possible that people can debate Montalban for five pages and remain sane? It must be genetic, I guess.

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« Reply #246 on: May 20, 2014, 10:31:43 AM »

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Bible was written by God. Only that it was produced by human beings.

Not surprised to read this from you.

The Bible is God's inspiration to His godly men to write what He wanted them to write. I know that you don't even believe in that, and I really don't care.


the Bible is not a magic book or a Quran; it's the inspired word of God for our salvation.  Young or old earth is not a necessary dogma for our salvation.

I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

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« Reply #247 on: May 20, 2014, 11:00:00 AM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.
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« Reply #248 on: May 20, 2014, 11:58:35 AM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.




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« Reply #249 on: May 20, 2014, 11:59:48 AM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


Where is that in the Bible?
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« Reply #250 on: May 20, 2014, 12:08:33 PM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


Where is that in the Bible?

Where is in the Bible that Exodus NEVER happened ? Where is in the Bible that We Don't Need the Bible ? Where is in the Bible that many things in Genesis are not historical but symbolic ? I'm sure you remember such things coming out of your mouth in the past xOrthodox4Christx.

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« Reply #251 on: May 20, 2014, 12:22:44 PM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


If you say so. I think there's more "Orthodoxy" in "not caring" about one way or another, or having no formal education but Biblical reading for those with simpler minds.  But a conscious criticism of educated peoples who are Orthodox Christians and may be just as pious in belief and virtue and you imply more respect to the Bible by saying they "don't follow the Bible as fully" as you do despite essential agreement on dogma is akin to a dangerous self-pride that shares the likes of Montanists, Novationists, and Donatists.  "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life". At some point, an overemphasis of literalism in every aspect of Scripture becomes a disrespect to the Bible, especially at the expense of priding yourself with better Scriptural exegesis than your fellow Orthodox Christians who don't see a conflict with evolution.
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« Reply #252 on: May 20, 2014, 12:52:32 PM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


Where is that in the Bible?

Where is in the Bible that Exodus NEVER happened ? Where is in the Bible that We Don't Need the Bible ? Where is in the Bible that many things in Genesis are not historical but symbolic ? I'm sure you remember such things coming out of your mouth in the past xOrthodox4Christx.



Sure. But I don't claim, like you do, to follow the Bible. Since you are claiming that, you hold responsibility to prove that following the Bible is in the Bible, and that your interpretation of what 'following the Bible' means is found in the Bible.
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« Reply #253 on: May 20, 2014, 01:08:50 PM »

I understand what you are trying to say, Orthodox4Christ, but I think there is a converse danger in the zeal to contradict the Sola Scriptura mindset to minimize Holy Scripture.  We DO follow Scripture. We DO hold that it is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy does not seek to discard or minimize Scripture, but rather to be reverenced and venerated.  The caution that must be taken, however, is that we ought not to personally interpret it to meet our own wants and desires. It is is a vital part of Holy Tradition, but it is a part. It cannot be separated from the whole.

In regards to evolution, it out to be remembered that evolution is a scientific theory. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong or blasphemous about it.  It can, however, be misused and hijacked by both anti-theists and fundamentalist religionists as a prop to support all sorts of erroneous hypotheses. That is the danger.  Not the theory, but once again, man's individual desire to "discover" truth on his own.
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« Reply #254 on: May 20, 2014, 01:11:41 PM »

I understand what you are trying to say, Orthodox4Christ, but I think there is a converse danger in the zeal to contradict the Sola Scriptura mindset to minimize Holy Scripture.  We DO follow Scripture. We DO hold that it is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy does not seek to discard or minimize Scripture, but rather to be reverenced and venerated.  The caution that must be taken, however, is that we ought not to personally interpret it to meet our own wants and desires. It is is a vital part of Holy Tradition, but it is a part. It cannot be separated from the whole.

Thank you.
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« Reply #255 on: May 20, 2014, 01:12:49 PM »

I understand what you are trying to say, Orthodox4Christ, but I think there is a converse danger in the zeal to contradict the Sola Scriptura mindset to minimize Holy Scripture.  We DO follow Scripture. We DO hold that it is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy does not seek to discard or minimize Scripture, but rather to be reverenced and venerated.  The caution that must be taken, however, is that we ought not to personally interpret it to meet our own wants and desires. It is is a vital part of Holy Tradition, but it is a part. It cannot be separated from the whole.

In regards to evolution, it out to be remembered that evolution is a scientific theory. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong or blasphemous about it.  It can, however, be misused and hijacked by both anti-theists and fundamentalist religionists as a prop to support all sorts of erroneous hypotheses. That is the danger.  Not the theory, but once again, man's individual desire to "discover" truth on his own.

I don't think I minimized Holy Scripture in my above post.

I'm simply holding Raylight's feet to the fire. If he claims to follow Scripture, he should back it up. It doesn't matter what I think about it.

I'm not claiming to follow Scripture, he is.
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« Reply #256 on: May 20, 2014, 01:18:04 PM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


If you say so. I think there's more "Orthodoxy" in "not caring" about one way or another, or having no formal education but Biblical reading for those with simpler minds.  But a conscious criticism of educated peoples who are Orthodox Christians and may be just as pious in belief and virtue and you imply more respect to the Bible by saying they "don't follow the Bible as fully" as you do despite essential agreement on dogma is akin to a dangerous self-pride that shares the likes of Montanists, Novationists, and Donatists.  "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life". At some point, an overemphasis of literalism in every aspect of Scripture becomes a disrespect to the Bible, especially at the expense of priding yourself with better Scriptural exegesis than your fellow Orthodox Christians who don't see a conflict with evolution.

Let me remind you that Orthodoxy teaches that There Is No Salvation Outside the Church. Also says that other Christian churches do not enjoy the full grace of God.

My point is that you accuse me of being close to "self-pride". And I can say the same thing about any Orthodox Christian who believe in the claims stated above.
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« Reply #257 on: May 20, 2014, 01:20:08 PM »

I'm simply holding Raylight's feet to the fire. If he claims to follow Scripture, he should back it up. It doesn't matter what I think about it.

I suppose what matters is what you're trying to accomplish.  Raylight has made no secret of his lack of fluency in English and the resulting problems in communication this can cause.  Throwing out some quick one or two sentence posts which basically give even native English speakers the impression that you are minimising/dismissing the importance of Scripture isn't going to help someone whose English isn't as good to understand your point.  All it's going to do is confuse, scandalise, and polarise, which is what happened in previous interactions.  It's one thing to have all the facts, it's another to know how they all fit together, and it's yet another to know how best to use them.    
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« Reply #258 on: May 20, 2014, 01:32:35 PM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


If you say so. I think there's more "Orthodoxy" in "not caring" about one way or another, or having no formal education but Biblical reading for those with simpler minds.  But a conscious criticism of educated peoples who are Orthodox Christians and may be just as pious in belief and virtue and you imply more respect to the Bible by saying they "don't follow the Bible as fully" as you do despite essential agreement on dogma is akin to a dangerous self-pride that shares the likes of Montanists, Novationists, and Donatists.  "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life". At some point, an overemphasis of literalism in every aspect of Scripture becomes a disrespect to the Bible, especially at the expense of priding yourself with better Scriptural exegesis than your fellow Orthodox Christians who don't see a conflict with evolution.

Let me remind you that Orthodoxy teaches that There Is No Salvation Outside the Church. Also says that other Christian churches do not enjoy the full grace of God.

My point is that you accuse me of being close to "self-pride". And I can say the same thing about any Orthodox Christian who believe in the claims stated above.

Not if we believe in the tradition of the Catholic Church, which can be manifestly proven to have believed in the authority of the Bishop, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, tradition, fasting etc. in the first century.

I'm simply holding Raylight's feet to the fire. If he claims to follow Scripture, he should back it up. It doesn't matter what I think about it.

I suppose what matters is what you're trying to accomplish.  Raylight has made no secret of his lack of fluency in English and the resulting problems in communication this can cause.  Throwing out some quick one or two sentence posts which basically give even native English speakers the impression that you are minimising/dismissing the importance of Scripture isn't going to help someone whose English isn't as good to understand your point.  All it's going to do is confuse, scandalise, and polarise, which is what happened in previous interactions.  It's one thing to have all the facts, it's another to know how they all fit together, and it's yet another to know how best to use them.   

This post is what is confusing me. I haven't mentioned anything about Scripture in my above posts that remotely suggests anything about Scripture except that if one wants to judge everything based on Scripture, that they should consistently do so; instead of making strawmen out of other people's arguments or by dodging the subject altogether.

In other words, don't claim to follow the Bible, and not back it up.
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« Reply #259 on: May 20, 2014, 01:48:25 PM »

I understand what you are trying to say, Orthodox4Christ, but I think there is a converse danger in the zeal to contradict the Sola Scriptura mindset to minimize Holy Scripture.  We DO follow Scripture. We DO hold that it is divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy does not seek to discard or minimize Scripture, but rather to be reverenced and venerated.  The caution that must be taken, however, is that we ought not to personally interpret it to meet our own wants and desires. It is is a vital part of Holy Tradition, but it is a part. It cannot be separated from the whole.

In regards to evolution, it out to be remembered that evolution is a scientific theory. In and of itself, there is nothing wrong or blasphemous about it.  It can, however, be misused and hijacked by both anti-theists and fundamentalist religionists as a prop to support all sorts of erroneous hypotheses. That is the danger.  Not the theory, but once again, man's individual desire to "discover" truth on his own.

I don't think I minimized Holy Scripture in my above post.

I'm simply holding Raylight's feet to the fire. If he claims to follow Scripture, he should back it up. It doesn't matter what I think about it.

I'm not claiming to follow Scripture, he is.

I'm not surprised that you don't follow the Bible. But next time please O please, say that is "your personal opinion". Because from your username which says you are Orthodox. Many other readers who are not members here can get confused and think that nonsense you are saying is actually what the Orthodox Church teaching.

I'm going to keep following the word of God, and you keep follow whoever and whatever you want to follow Mr xOrthodox"4Christ"x


I don't really understand what you want from me by your question ? Do you want me to give you a verse from the book that you don't follow that says we should follow the word of God which is the Bible ? Or you want me to give you an evidence that I follow the word of God ? Because in the second case, you have to live with me to see if I really follow the word of God or not.



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« Reply #260 on: May 20, 2014, 01:49:29 PM »

I'm simply holding Raylight's feet to the fire. If he claims to follow Scripture, he should back it up. It doesn't matter what I think about it.

I suppose what matters is what you're trying to accomplish.  Raylight has made no secret of his lack of fluency in English and the resulting problems in communication this can cause.  Throwing out some quick one or two sentence posts which basically give even native English speakers the impression that you are minimising/dismissing the importance of Scripture isn't going to help someone whose English isn't as good to understand your point.  All it's going to do is confuse, scandalise, and polarise, which is what happened in previous interactions.  It's one thing to have all the facts, it's another to know how they all fit together, and it's yet another to know how best to use them.    

This post is what is confusing me. I haven't mentioned anything about Scripture in my above posts that remotely suggests anything about Scripture except that if one wants to judge everything based on Scripture, that they should consistently do so; instead of making strawmen out of other people's arguments or by dodging the subject altogether.

In other words, don't claim to follow the Bible, and not back it up.

Oh?  What about the red?  

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Bible was written by God. Only that it was produced by human beings.

Not surprised to read this from you.

The Bible is God's inspiration to His godly men to write what He wanted them to write. I know that you don't even believe in that, and I really don't care.



I absolutely believe that. Understanding what someone writes, and making a strawman and knocking it down are two different things. What I don't believe is making conclusions on reality based on no substantive evidence.

You can harp about strawmen all you want, but you can't really hold on to that when you know the person with whom you're speaking is using a language which is not his primary language and one in which he admits limitations.  

Compare your comments in red, which on their face are definitely an affirmation about Scripture which goes beyond your call for consistency, and how Raylight understood and responded to them.  You're talking past each other, so it doesn't matter if you're right.  

If you're posting for your own entertainment, then forget I said anything.  But if you're actually trying to help him understand your point, you're going to need to figure out how to express yourself in a way he won't misunderstand.  That may require more than a couple of sentences and more selective quoting of past posts so that those sentences don't get lost in a huge block of previously read text.        
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« Reply #261 on: May 20, 2014, 05:36:19 PM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


If you say so. I think there's more "Orthodoxy" in "not caring" about one way or another, or having no formal education but Biblical reading for those with simpler minds.  But a conscious criticism of educated peoples who are Orthodox Christians and may be just as pious in belief and virtue and you imply more respect to the Bible by saying they "don't follow the Bible as fully" as you do despite essential agreement on dogma is akin to a dangerous self-pride that shares the likes of Montanists, Novationists, and Donatists.  "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life". At some point, an overemphasis of literalism in every aspect of Scripture becomes a disrespect to the Bible, especially at the expense of priding yourself with better Scriptural exegesis than your fellow Orthodox Christians who don't see a conflict with evolution.

Let me remind you that Orthodoxy teaches that There Is No Salvation Outside the Church. Also says that other Christian churches do not enjoy the full grace of God.

My point is that you accuse me of being close to "self-pride". And I can say the same thing about any Orthodox Christian who believe in the claims stated above.

The difference is I don't claim to say my interpretation is correct or better than your's. What I say is that it's not fair for those evolutionists who do have a respect for the Bible and you claim to be true to the Bible by your anti-evolutionist view, pretty much tiptoeing on self-pride and implying that evolutionists are "not true" to the Bible.  And what happens when one is not true to the Bible? Are they not outside the Church? Jehovah's Witness are not true to the Bible too. I choose to believe that Christ is God because that is true to the Bible, which means, Yes, JWs are in heresy.

My issue is completely scientific.  Has nothing to do with the faith (at least for the most part, since some people still have an issue with how to understand the Fall, which I tend to respect more than mere Biblical literalism).
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« Reply #262 on: May 20, 2014, 05:46:51 PM »

I'm simply holding Raylight's feet to the fire. If he claims to follow Scripture, he should back it up. It doesn't matter what I think about it.

I suppose what matters is what you're trying to accomplish.  Raylight has made no secret of his lack of fluency in English and the resulting problems in communication this can cause.  Throwing out some quick one or two sentence posts which basically give even native English speakers the impression that you are minimising/dismissing the importance of Scripture isn't going to help someone whose English isn't as good to understand your point.  All it's going to do is confuse, scandalise, and polarise, which is what happened in previous interactions.  It's one thing to have all the facts, it's another to know how they all fit together, and it's yet another to know how best to use them.   

This post is what is confusing me. I haven't mentioned anything about Scripture in my above posts that remotely suggests anything about Scripture except that if one wants to judge everything based on Scripture, that they should consistently do so; instead of making strawmen out of other people's arguments or by dodging the subject altogether.

In other words, don't claim to follow the Bible, and not back it up.

Oh?  What about the red? 

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

Despite the fact that there is no evidence that the Bible was written by God. Only that it was produced by human beings.

Not surprised to read this from you.

The Bible is God's inspiration to His godly men to write what He wanted them to write. I know that you don't even believe in that, and I really don't care.



I absolutely believe that. Understanding what someone writes, and making a strawman and knocking it down are two different things. What I don't believe is making conclusions on reality based on no substantive evidence.

You can harp about strawmen all you want, but you can't really hold on to that when you know the person with whom you're speaking is using a language which is not his primary language and one in which he admits limitations. 

Compare your comments in red, which on their face are definitely an affirmation about Scripture which goes beyond your call for consistency, and how Raylight understood and responded to them.  You're talking past each other, so it doesn't matter if you're right. 

If you're posting for your own entertainment, then forget I said anything.  But if you're actually trying to help him understand your point, you're going to need to figure out how to express yourself in a way he won't misunderstand.  That may require more than a couple of sentences and more selective quoting of past posts so that those sentences don't get lost in a huge block of previously read text.       

All I've asked is for evidence of a claim. I don't particularly care if the claim is true at this time. Only that if a claim is made, it should be substantiated. If the excuse is because he doesn't know English, therefore I should just ignore any criticism, even criticism that was manufactured, is ridiculous.

I never claimed in the above post "the Bible isn't the word of God", I only claimed "there is no evidence" of it. If you are going to make a claim on reality, then you should be prepared to explain your reasoning, despite what languages you may or may not know. Or what socio-economic status you have.

It's not my intention to "make him understand" anything, only to get him to provide proof of his claims.

I'll spell it out clearly, don't make claims that you cannot support; and if you make claims on a public forum, be prepared for criticism.

As for block quotes, I don't really understand your point on that.
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« Reply #263 on: May 20, 2014, 06:26:09 PM »

xOrthodox4Christx, You've said that I made a claim and I need to prove it. Which claim did I exactly made ? Is it that I choose to follow the word of God ? Or is it that the Bible support Young Earth Creationism ?

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« Reply #264 on: May 20, 2014, 06:32:24 PM »

xOrthodox4Christx, You've said that I made a claim and I need to prove it. Which claim did I exactly made ? Is it that I choose to follow the word of God ? Or is it that the Bible support Young Earth Creationism ?



Both of those are claims.
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« Reply #265 on: May 20, 2014, 06:36:46 PM »

Quote
I never said that Young or old earth is necessary for our salvation. This is sadly something a lot of people accuse Young Earth Creationists of teaching. We do not believe that you have to believe in Young Earth Creationism in order for you to be called Christian or to be saved.

Let me quote for you something you wrote:

If you told me few months ago that I would be a Young Earth Creationist. I would laugh at you because I would think that is a joke, because I was believing the nonsense that came from what so called "scientists" and liberal media that showed YEC as a bad thing and even stupid thing. But, I'm actually a Young Earth Creationist today and will stay till the end of my life.

I know the bad image the media gave to YEC, and I know that many many Christians today ridicule YEC. But I looked at the evidence, I saw how what so called "scientists" think and look at the evidence, and how Biblical Creationists think and look at the same evidence.

So I choose the option number 1. Young Earth Creationism.

I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs.

You can't say that and then "not imply" we are in heresy who disrespect the Bible. You have to care about your implications. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If it doesn't matter for salvation, then it doesn't matter. Why waste your time thinking that "you follow the word of God" by believing in  a young earth? Does that mean we don't follow the word of God? If we do follow it, then your posts are vain. If we don't, then we are in heresy.  Let your yes be yes and your no be no.  Don't beat around the bush.

I can have my cake and eat it too if I want  Grin Grin

I simply said that I decided to follow the word of God. And therefor I'm Young Earth Creationist. Do I think that those who believe in Evolution..etc follow the word of God %100 ? NO! I don't think that those who believe in evolution are following the word of God fully, but does that touch their salvation ? Does that make them not Christians ? No! The End.


If you say so. I think there's more "Orthodoxy" in "not caring" about one way or another, or having no formal education but Biblical reading for those with simpler minds.  But a conscious criticism of educated peoples who are Orthodox Christians and may be just as pious in belief and virtue and you imply more respect to the Bible by saying they "don't follow the Bible as fully" as you do despite essential agreement on dogma is akin to a dangerous self-pride that shares the likes of Montanists, Novationists, and Donatists.  "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life". At some point, an overemphasis of literalism in every aspect of Scripture becomes a disrespect to the Bible, especially at the expense of priding yourself with better Scriptural exegesis than your fellow Orthodox Christians who don't see a conflict with evolution.

Let me remind you that Orthodoxy teaches that There Is No Salvation Outside the Church. Also says that other Christian churches do not enjoy the full grace of God.

My point is that you accuse me of being close to "self-pride". And I can say the same thing about any Orthodox Christian who believe in the claims stated above.

The difference is I don't claim to say my interpretation is correct or better than your's. What I say is that it's not fair for those evolutionists who do have a respect for the Bible and you claim to be true to the Bible by your anti-evolutionist view, pretty much tiptoeing on self-pride and implying that evolutionists are "not true" to the Bible.  And what happens when one is not true to the Bible? Are they not outside the Church? Jehovah's Witness are not true to the Bible too. I choose to believe that Christ is God because that is true to the Bible, which means, Yes, JWs are in heresy.

My issue is completely scientific.  Has nothing to do with the faith (at least for the most part, since some people still have an issue with how to understand the Fall, which I tend to respect more than mere Biblical literalism).

You are an Orthodox. And as Orthodox, you have to believe that the only Church has the authority to interpret the Bible is the Orthodox Church only and she is the only one that can interprets it correctly, which saying that the Orthodox interpretation of the Bible is better than other Christian's interpretation.

If I asked you which one do you think is a better interpretation of the Bible, The Orthodox, The Catholic or The Protestant ? I'm almost sure you would choose the Orthodox. So, we all claim that our interpretation is better than others and we all have our own reasons to believe so.

And about your example about JW. Those people are actually changing the Bible to make it work for their own sake. Many words in the general Bible we have, are changed in their copy of it.  Also, the way we take the creation story is NOT as vital as the way we understand the Bible on the issue of our Lord Jesus Christ and things that related to him. So, you gave me JW as an example and that is too extreme, because those people are changing very very vital beliefs, which is way far important than the way we understand other parts of the Bible such as creation account in Genesis...etc.

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« Reply #266 on: May 20, 2014, 06:40:49 PM »

Let me remind you what you said again:  "I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs."

That's great, but so do we.  Evolution or no evolution, we all as part of the Orthodox Church follow the word of God.  What you are implying is that you are following it better than most, which I'm contending you're making standards for which the Orthodox Church hasn't.

I don't choose to follow the word of God because I believe or disbelieve evolution.  I choose to follow the word of God because of the Church, as you say.  But earlier, you said you choose to follow the word of God because of Young Earth Creationism.  That means that those in the Church who believe otherwise are not following the word of God.  You are essentially condemning as outside the Church, or using a standard that's not in accordance with the Church.

So which is it, do you follow the word of God because it teaches young earth creationism?  Or do follow the word of God regardless of whether we have a young or old earth?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 06:42:57 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #267 on: May 20, 2014, 06:51:45 PM »

xOrthodox4Christx, You've said that I made a claim and I need to prove it. Which claim did I exactly made ? Is it that I choose to follow the word of God ? Or is it that the Bible support Young Earth Creationism ?



Both of those are claims.

The first claim that I follow the word of God is vague, because I do follow the Bible in my real life, yes I do sin sometimes, but I do know what is a sin and what is not and I do my best to live my life more like the Lord Jesus Christ.

About the second claim about Young Earth Creationism. There are many sources to see how the Bible supports YEC and when you have the desire and time to check them out, please do.

http://creation.com/

http://creation.com/biblical-chronogenealogies

http://creation.com/6000-years

Also check this verse out which to me proves that the Lord Jesus Christ believed in Young Earth Creationism.

 In Luke 11:50–51, Jesus says:

‘That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zacharias …’.


It is very clear that the Lord Himself associated the time of foundation of the word with the time of the first blood shed.

I do know that you have another explanation for what Jesus Christ said, and it is going to be the type of taking it "symbolically". But I'm just going to take what the verse says very clearly without going further and coming out with some other ideas.

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« Reply #268 on: May 20, 2014, 06:56:17 PM »

Let me remind you what you said again:  "I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs."

That's great, but so do we.  Evolution or no evolution, we all as part of the Orthodox Church follow the word of God.  What you are implying is that you are following it better than most, which I'm contending you're making standards for which the Orthodox Church hasn't.

I don't choose to follow the word of God because I believe or disbelieve evolution.  I choose to follow the word of God because of the Church, as you say.  But earlier, you said you choose to follow the word of God because of Young Earth Creationism.  That means that those in the Church who believe otherwise are not following the word of God.  You are essentially condemning as outside the Church, or using a standard that's not in accordance with the Church.

So which is it, do you follow the word of God because it teaches young earth creationism?  Or do follow the word of God regardless of whether we have a young or old earth?

It is getting kind of complicated here but I'm going to say what I already said more clearly.

YEC is Biblical idea, Evolution is mankind idea. Following YEC is following the Bible on that matter, following Evolution however, is following mankind on that matter.

So, if you are Christian who believes in Evolution, then you are contradicting what the Bible says on that issue which is very clear. But does that mean you are NOT Christian ? NO!

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« Reply #269 on: May 20, 2014, 07:04:20 PM »

Let me remind you what you said again:  "I choose to follow the word of God. Not man's thoughts and beliefs."

That's great, but so do we.  Evolution or no evolution, we all as part of the Orthodox Church follow the word of God.  What you are implying is that you are following it better than most, which I'm contending you're making standards for which the Orthodox Church hasn't.

I don't choose to follow the word of God because I believe or disbelieve evolution.  I choose to follow the word of God because of the Church, as you say.  But earlier, you said you choose to follow the word of God because of Young Earth Creationism.  That means that those in the Church who believe otherwise are not following the word of God.  You are essentially condemning as outside the Church, or using a standard that's not in accordance with the Church.

So which is it, do you follow the word of God because it teaches young earth creationism?  Or do follow the word of God regardless of whether we have a young or old earth?

It is getting kind of complicated here but I'm going to say what I already said more clearly.

YEC is Biblical idea, Evolution is mankind idea. Following YEC is following the Bible on that matter, following Evolution however, is following mankind on that matter.

So, if you are Christian who believes in Evolution, then you are contradicting what the Bible says on that issue which is very clear. But does that mean you are NOT Christian ? NO!



Nobody who follows Evolution is contradicting the Bible, only contradicting a certain view which holds the Bible in isolation outside of any historical, scientific or traditional contexts.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 07:04:44 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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