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Poll
Question: What would best describe your beliefs about how the universe and man came to be?
Young Earth Creationism (e.g., earth is less than 10,000 years old) - 16 (13.1%)
Other Creationism (e.g., the "days" in Genesis could each signify very long periods) - 22 (18%)
Theistic Intelligent Design (e.g., we were created by a God, and I *know* which God) - 17 (13.9%)
Deistic Intelligent Design (e.g., the universe was created by God, though I'm not sure which version of God most accurately describes Him) - 1 (0.8%)
Vanilla Intelligent Design (e.g., there was some type of designer, though I don't know if it was a supernatural entity) - 1 (0.8%)
Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution - 10 (8.2%)
Other Evolutionary Theories - 0 (0%)
None of These - 2 (1.6%)
A Mixture of These - 10 (8.2%)
Theistic Evolution - 33 (27%)
Not Sure - 10 (8.2%)
Total Voters: 122

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Author Topic: Evolutionist, ID, or Creationist? Cast Your Vote!  (Read 23076 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #315 on: May 24, 2014, 07:17:02 PM »

I expect evolutionism in time to be anathematized as a very important heresy.

I know you come from a Mennonite background into the Orthodox Church, and you will be received with open arms and welcomed.

However, you will meet bishops, priests, your own brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Church who do not define the Orthodox faith by literalism of the Scriptures, or by young earth, and has no problem with evolutionary science and their full Orthodox faith in Christ.
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« Reply #316 on: May 24, 2014, 10:58:19 PM »

I long for the day when intelligent design and scientific creationism are condemned as the Protestantising heresies they are.
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« Reply #317 on: May 24, 2014, 11:01:07 PM »

I'm not a Genesis literalist, as it happens. Also, I've read a lot of what you've posted with an approving nod.

Obviously, clearing the way to finding evolutionism heresy would be an augean task. I am not hoping for it this century. Besides, there is the awkward position in which the Church finds itself in modern society, its jurisdiction shrunk (probably even in the minds of its elders) to almost nil, so that perhaps almost nothing in modern life seems theological. Yes, perhaps first a doctrine of secularism or somesuch would have to be anathematized. That admitted, I still do firmly believe false theology underlies and impenetrates evolutionism. Dim to discern, slippery to isolate, but important theology all the same. I am not really prepared to defend my feelings at this time; I'm ignorant and fragile; especially I feel so now, as an inquirer into Orthodoxy.

Let me ask a few half-formed questions, merely as they enter my mind. But beforehand, in such a discussion, surely we can set aside the pupils and artisans who are most of whom we think of when we think of scientists? Even most theoreticians can be set aside. These are mere toilers in an inherited economia ... they have done much good ...

Shall it be said of God that where he is there is no purpose? Teleology is now termed "the fallacy of cause," or, if that example is too rarified, think of chaos theory or just the ubiquitous doctrine of randomness.

Shall it be said of God "panto-" &c. yet that there is nothing truly infinite? The transfinite math is more than a practical fudge, and many theories by now rest on it -- a notorious one is string theory -- as well as uncountable models and research.

Shall it be said of God that he is a rewarder of evil? In one form or another, a doctrine that the violent in competition are the makarioi to this day pervades most large evolutionary ideas.

A line of questioning in re the human soul could be nearly as important. As might one that asks what is a theologically-proper attitude in research, its presentation, in scientific speculation, &c.

Enough from me. Oh, I do tend to recommend everyone the essay "Darwinism" by Marilynne Robinson (Salmagundi, spring-summer 1997). Maybe I'll try to find a link ...
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« Reply #318 on: May 24, 2014, 11:13:20 PM »

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« Reply #319 on: May 24, 2014, 11:20:50 PM »

I just must jot down one more thing ... Evolutionary science as basis for social policy, psychological treatment, legal systems -- well, for what not -- is this synergy with the State not the place instead of the Church? What would the Fathers have advised the Emperor ...? I hope such questions stir in somebody's mind besides mine.
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« Reply #320 on: May 24, 2014, 11:42:03 PM »

I just must jot down one more thing ... Evolutionary science as basis for social policy, psychological treatment, legal systems -- well, for what not -- is this synergy with the State not the place instead of the Church? What would the Fathers have advised the Emperor ...? I hope such questions stir in somebody's mind besides mine.

Porter, they have stirred our minds in another thread and continued on for a veeeeeery long discussion.  Out of all the points you make, only one valid point of which I sympathize with.  But the rest is nonsense, including this one.

But the issue of death in theology is something that probably does need discussion.  But then the question comes if it is evil for us to kill animals or for animals to die, why should the Church continue allowing the eating of meat?  And does God deceive us by leaving us million year old fossils?

To me, when someone says "Logos", I think consistency, even in the laws of cosmos.  The Lord who created all things, including the consistency within our flesh and the understanding of our own physiology, biochemistry, microbiology, is also connected with the consistency of the cosmos, of which we are part of.

My faith in God however is never shaken in these issues.  I have always thought it through and it never bothered me not once.  The incarnation of Christ is far more beneficial in life than being concerned with how the world works.  How the world works is like toys in the hands of humanity we can play with.  No matter what the explanation, it never destroys the integrity of our faith in God, who created all things.  Who am I to judge God's creation?  He allows me to test and to discover, and how can I say this is not what God intended when the evidence is clear?

Those are the questions that I hope stir up your mind.
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« Reply #321 on: May 25, 2014, 12:57:38 AM »

Try this!

I asked this question in a more direct fashion once every year or two without response.

I am going to do it piecemeal this time.

Does anyone know somebody or somebody who knows somebody that knows the extent and the limitations of Hebrew vocabulary at the time of Moses.

I would like a name that ultimately results in a contact.

I did finally try your suggestion. It was not particularly fruitful so far. On the first page I ran into Francesca Stavrakopoulou, Head of Theology & Religion, Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion at the University of Exeter (http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/theology/staff/stavrakopoulou/). Hebrew and Ancient are just what I wanted but in a particular order.  She was also the Secretary of the Society for Old Testament Study, 2010-12 (whatever this is but it sounds good).

The problem is she had her own BBC series. If you like shows about UFOs and Aliens, then this is for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLbcTQQFt-k

I made it though part 2 but I had to give up after about the 100th "I think". I was quite disheartened and perplexed as to why she has a faculty position. I am perhaps missing something.


ps - is that WFB-Jr in your avatar? Just curious.
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« Reply #322 on: May 25, 2014, 01:19:54 AM »

Minasoliman, a topic such as this can obscure what it is only part of, an entire vista upon a cosmos that is of course much more than what can be touched or tinkered with. Modern science is particularly coy about how small a part it plays in the human and divine dramas. So I wonder if, when we step back from what's called modern science to what's modernly called philosophy -- if from that perch we clearly see anything that seems to depend from false theology. You may not be one to see positivism or nihilism or what-have-you (a favorite dead horse is communism) as heresy, but you must see where they can begin to compete with the Church. If so, can we discern any tacit theology underlying them that thus raises them into conflict with the Fathers? You point out that Logos is consistency, and I do agree and even say there is a consistent line to be drawn -- from any action or speech, such as scientific research and explanation -- through thought and idea, such as any theories explicitly or implicitly underlying and shaping science -- to heart and God, that is to say, to right and wrong belief.
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« Reply #323 on: May 25, 2014, 01:27:56 AM »

Sorry to hear that, Opus. The link, albeit a 'joke,' sure looked like it popped up a few nice results. A fellow at UT Austin looked promising, and I think he was somewhere in the first page of results. Maybe just email one of them and pop your question -- academics sure like to talk, so I bet you get a response.

Anyway, yeah. Its WFB. Let Luke and his boxing gloves take a rest.

Try this!

I asked this question in a more direct fashion once every year or two without response.

I am going to do it piecemeal this time.

Does anyone know somebody or somebody who knows somebody that knows the extent and the limitations of Hebrew vocabulary at the time of Moses.

I would like a name that ultimately results in a contact.

I did finally try your suggestion. It was not particularly fruitful so far. On the first page I ran into Francesca Stavrakopoulou, Head of Theology & Religion, Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion at the University of Exeter (http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/theology/staff/stavrakopoulou/). Hebrew and Ancient are just what I wanted but in a particular order.  She was also the Secretary of the Society for Old Testament Study, 2010-12 (whatever this is but it sounds good).

The problem is she had her own BBC series. If you like shows about UFOs and Aliens, then this is for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLbcTQQFt-k

I made it though part 2 but I had to give up after about the 100th "I think". I was quite disheartened and perplexed as to why she has a faculty position. I am perhaps missing something.


ps - is that WFB-Jr in your avatar? Just curious.
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« Reply #324 on: May 25, 2014, 03:47:55 AM »

conflict with the Fathers?
You rightly disagree with the majority of Fathers on multiple issues of cosmology, philosophy of science, and anthropology.
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« Reply #325 on: May 25, 2014, 04:13:04 AM »

conflict with the Fathers?
You rightly disagree with the majority of Fathers on multiple issues of cosmology, philosophy of science, and anthropology.

I personally? You'd be surprised. Smiley

But you're avoiding the point, which is that surely a false philosophy can rise to heresy even if it is not, strictly speaking, a false dogma. Without doubt it can be if it enters the Church! At the risk of diminishing this assertion I'll give an example: Origen's spherical souls (and souls of spheres, for that matter), a pretty-unremarkable scientific description of his day.
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« Reply #326 on: May 25, 2014, 01:33:31 PM »

Minasoliman, a topic such as this can obscure what it is only part of, an entire vista upon a cosmos that is of course much more than what can be touched or tinkered with. Modern science is particularly coy about how small a part it plays in the human and divine dramas. So I wonder if, when we step back from what's called modern science to what's modernly called philosophy -- if from that perch we clearly see anything that seems to depend from false theology. You may not be one to see positivism or nihilism or what-have-you (a favorite dead horse is communism) as heresy, but you must see where they can begin to compete with the Church. If so, can we discern any tacit theology underlying them that thus raises them into conflict with the Fathers? You point out that Logos is consistency, and I do agree and even say there is a consistent line to be drawn -- from any action or speech, such as scientific research and explanation -- through thought and idea, such as any theories explicitly or implicitly underlying and shaping science -- to heart and God, that is to say, to right and wrong belief.

First of all, a false assumption is to lump Orthodox Christian scientists/evolutionists as nihilists (or Nazis or ruthless machiaevellians or what have you). When you observe a natural process, that does not turn it into an allegory of moral/theological model, no matter how tempting it is.  (If oil and water separate, that does mean God is teaching me to seperate myself from sinners; it merely means hydrophobic and hydrophilic forces repel chemically) It is equally a false assumption to lump religious people as superstitious, paranoid, delusional, hysterical, etc. Another example:  It is equally a false assumption that genetic predisposition of a behavior excuses the behavior (and we know many aberrant behavioral conditions do have genetic components), it only reinforces stronger emphasis to fight it.

So with that in mind no, I'm not a nihilist.  So you need to stop with the false stereotype that evolution equals nihilism.  Atheism is nihilism, but not evolution, which is a mere naturalistic explanation of what is observed (and in fact the explanation is many cases has been observed).

Does it contradict theology of the fathers? One needs to ask a better question: does it contradict dogma? Toll booth is theology, but not dogma.  That's the issue at hand. Therefore, pre-Adamic animal death has not been defined as dogma.  Therefore, at this case no, I don't believe I am contradicting vital dogmatic theology, as opposed to theological opinions that have no dogmatic weight.  Once something has dogmatic weight, then I would proceed to call something heretical when it is not followed or contradicted.

Having a consensus of Patristic cosmology is not dogma.  It is cosmological ideas incorporated into the faith.  Cosmological ideas can change, but the faith (and morality) is rock solid.
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« Reply #327 on: May 25, 2014, 03:07:15 PM »

I wasn't drawing any comparisons between modern science and philosophy there, although no doubt that's a ripe question. I was asking whether, if we were to turn this subject from modern science to modern philosophy, we could better discern whether an idea not claiming to be a dogma can yet be, in some way, heretical.

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... to lump Orthodox scientists ...

Yet I'm not sure you are not lumping Orthodox scientists, or any scientists, in with modern science as a school of thought and its implications. Every era has had its good workmen. While few in any zeitgeist -- and especially few in ours, due to its peculiar nature -- are able to or interested in penetrating its intellectual and spiritual framework (really the work of the Church).
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« Reply #328 on: May 25, 2014, 03:11:38 PM »

... Does it contradict theology of the fathers? One needs to ask a better question: does it contradict dogma? Toll booth is theology, but not dogma.  That's the issue at hand. Therefore, pre-Adamic animal death has not been defined as dogma.  Therefore, at this case no, I don't believe I am contradicting vital dogmatic theology, as opposed to theological opinions that have no dogmatic weight.  Once something has dogmatic weight, then I would proceed to call something heretical when it is not followed or contradicted.

Having a consensus of Patristic cosmology is not dogma.  It is cosmological ideas incorporated into the faith.  Cosmological ideas can change, but the faith (and morality) is rock solid.

What you're saying here is so pertinent to my concerns -- thank you. We can always agree on this, that the Orthodox way is the good way. Also, I'm so heartened to read you testify that evolutionism is not nihilism, to read that you harmonize what you find in science with God as truly holy, mighty, immortal. Glory be to God.
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« Reply #329 on: May 25, 2014, 03:34:15 PM »

As for Creation scientists (I think I've opined enough but I think I should say this), they are condemned by St. James's injunction to show one's faith by one's works. Unless they are healing, building, solving the problems of man, then their science so-called, as bearing no fruit, refutes itself.
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« Reply #330 on: May 25, 2014, 06:10:24 PM »

So long as evolution is looked upon merely as a scientific model, I find there to be no problems. When people attempt to misuse the theory and co-opt it for use in social modeling, religious dogma or philosophical meaning, that is where a significant problem arises.
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« Reply #331 on: May 25, 2014, 07:58:41 PM »

... Does it contradict theology of the fathers? One needs to ask a better question: does it contradict dogma? Toll booth is theology, but not dogma.  That's the issue at hand. Therefore, pre-Adamic animal death has not been defined as dogma.  Therefore, at this case no, I don't believe I am contradicting vital dogmatic theology, as opposed to theological opinions that have no dogmatic weight.  Once something has dogmatic weight, then I would proceed to call something heretical when it is not followed or contradicted.

Having a consensus of Patristic cosmology is not dogma.  It is cosmological ideas incorporated into the faith.  Cosmological ideas can change, but the faith (and morality) is rock solid.

What you're saying here is so pertinent to my concerns -- thank you. We can always agree on this, that the Orthodox way is the good way. Also, I'm so heartened to read you testify that evolutionism is not nihilism, to read that you harmonize what you find in science with God as truly holy, mighty, immortal. Glory be to God.

May His name be glorified!

As for Creation scientists (I think I've opined enough but I think I should say this), they are condemned by St. James's injunction to show one's faith by one's works. Unless they are healing, building, solving the problems of man, then their science so-called, as bearing no fruit, refutes itself.

I ridicule Creationists/IDists depending on way of thought.  If they for instance define science differently, they are merely ridiculed on the basis of science, as not "real scientists".  If however, they define science the same way (that is the modern conception of it), but include God as the Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.
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« Reply #332 on: May 25, 2014, 08:06:57 PM »

...  If however, they define science the same way (that is the modern conception of it), but include God as the Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.

Well gosh I can't agree with that. Shocked
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« Reply #333 on: May 25, 2014, 09:19:28 PM »

I ridicule Creationists/IDists depending on way of thought. [....] Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.

How does explaining God as the working hand in creation create Pantheism? This sounds more like a caricature that a real criticism. Same with the latter. How does ID put limits on the God? Certainly defining God as the creator of not only design, but the information that makes life keeps his place as divine.
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« Reply #334 on: May 25, 2014, 09:24:58 PM »

I ridicule Creationists/IDists depending on way of thought. [....] Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.

How does explaining God as the working hand in creation create Pantheism? This sounds more like a caricature that a real criticism. Same with the latter. How does ID put limits on the God? Certainly defining God as the creator of not only design, but the information that makes life keeps his place as divine.

Like I said, if you define science as a naturalistic explanation, either nature is divine or divinity is natural (i.e. a part of "mother nature" so to speak).
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« Reply #335 on: May 25, 2014, 09:51:30 PM »

I ridicule Creationists/IDists depending on way of thought. [....] Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.

How does explaining God as the working hand in creation create Pantheism? This sounds more like a caricature that a real criticism. Same with the latter. How does ID put limits on the God? Certainly defining God as the creator of not only design, but the information that makes life keeps his place as divine.

Like I said, if you define science as a naturalistic explanation, either nature is divine or divinity is natural (i.e. a part of "mother nature" so to speak).

Or nature shows divinity, which neither requires nor imposes a natural God.
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« Reply #336 on: May 25, 2014, 09:55:15 PM »

I ridicule Creationists/IDists depending on way of thought. [....] Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.

How does explaining God as the working hand in creation create Pantheism? This sounds more like a caricature that a real criticism. Same with the latter. How does ID put limits on the God? Certainly defining God as the creator of not only design, but the information that makes life keeps his place as divine.

Like I said, if you define science as a naturalistic explanation, either nature is divine or divinity is natural (i.e. a part of "mother nature" so to speak).

Or nature shows divinity, which neither requires nor imposes a natural God.

That only is proven by faith, not by science.  "For we know by faith, not by sight."
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« Reply #337 on: May 25, 2014, 09:56:44 PM »

I ridicule Creationists/IDists depending on way of thought. [....] Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.

How does explaining God as the working hand in creation create Pantheism? This sounds more like a caricature that a real criticism. Same with the latter. How does ID put limits on the God? Certainly defining God as the creator of not only design, but the information that makes life keeps his place as divine.

Like I said, if you define science as a naturalistic explanation, either nature is divine or divinity is natural (i.e. a part of "mother nature" so to speak).

Or nature shows divinity, which neither requires nor imposes a natural God.

That only is proven by faith, not by science.  "For we know by faith, not by sight."

So you're offended that we can see the impact of God plainly in nature?
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« Reply #338 on: May 25, 2014, 09:57:52 PM »

I ridicule Creationists/IDists depending on way of thought. [....] Intelligent Designer that can be proven under this model of science, then I proceed to actually call them heretical.  The reason being, either they have to admit pantheism in their model, or they have to admit that God is not the unlimited, untestable deity, and thus the integrity of divinity is lost.

How does explaining God as the working hand in creation create Pantheism? This sounds more like a caricature that a real criticism. Same with the latter. How does ID put limits on the God? Certainly defining God as the creator of not only design, but the information that makes life keeps his place as divine.

Like I said, if you define science as a naturalistic explanation, either nature is divine or divinity is natural (i.e. a part of "mother nature" so to speak).

Or nature shows divinity, which neither requires nor imposes a natural God.

That only is proven by faith, not by science.  "For we know by faith, not by sight."

So you're offended that we can see the impact of God plainly in nature?

No, by faith, I see God in all things and above all things.  But I don't dare to say I can scientifically prove him.  That is just as blasphemous as saying I can see his divine essence.
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« Reply #339 on: May 25, 2014, 10:22:16 PM »

In my experience, such awful fragmentation can strike into the very soul and fragment the personality. The rise of great psychic suffering of the West is -- well, I'll just say correlated -- with the rise of such assertions from its thinkers.
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« Reply #340 on: May 26, 2014, 01:42:11 AM »

conflict with the Fathers?
You rightly disagree with the majority of Fathers on multiple issues of cosmology, philosophy of science, and anthropology.

I personally? You'd be surprised. Smiley

I think you believe that the earth orbits the sun, and that the sky is not an impassible barrier. I think you believe that physical medical knowledge ought to be based on empirical testing, and not the antiquity or proliferation of a medical tradition. I think you believe that both men and women contribute material to their offspring, and that miscarriage is not the result of a woman sinning.

Well gosh I can't agree with that. Shocked
Intelligent Design is the materialistic hypothesis that there is material evidence of occasional tampering, by some sort of intelligent entity, in the evolutionary history of organisms; tampering without which the material history of life that we observe cannot be explained.

Scientific Creationism is the materialistic hypothesis that there is material evidence of occasional tampering, by some sort of intelligent entity, in the history of the earth; tampering without which the material history of life that we observe cannot be explained.

Neither of these hypotheses is Christian. Neither of these hypotheses is correct.
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« Reply #341 on: May 26, 2014, 09:51:01 AM »

I expect evolutionism in time to be anathematized as a very important heresy.

The Church only anathematizes bad theology, she does not anathematize scientific hypotheses much less theories.

Theory is about as high a level of certitude as can be had in science and the consensus of scientists in the relevant sciences for evolution is at 99.84%.

To paraphrase Galileo, the Church teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

The Church cannot condemn scientific theories because these are outside of her competency. And with the scientific consensus so firmly settled on evolution, the age of the earth, and the age of the universe it would be intellectual suicide to do so.
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« Reply #342 on: May 26, 2014, 09:57:43 AM »

conflict with the Fathers?
You rightly disagree with the majority of Fathers on multiple issues of cosmology, philosophy of science, and anthropology.

I personally? You'd be surprised. Smiley

I think you believe that the earth orbits the sun, and that the sky is not an impassible barrier. I think you believe that physical medical knowledge ought to be based on empirical testing, and not the antiquity or proliferation of a medical tradition. I think you believe that both men and women contribute material to their offspring, and that miscarriage is not the result of a woman sinning.

By this you, like almost any modern, fail to understand with coherence and sympathy the science of that age; the best of which, in my opinion, far outstrips the science of our present age in penetrating the nature of God and of man in our cosmos.
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« Reply #343 on: May 26, 2014, 10:02:51 AM »

I expect evolutionism in time to be anathematized as a very important heresy.
To paraphrase Galileo, the Church teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

How very Western. "Paraphrasing Galileo," Europe would then go on to the Reformation, colonialism, and endless blasphemies and wars.

Quote
The Church only anathematizes bad theology, she does not anathematize scientific hypotheses much less theories. ...

The Church cannot condemn scientific theories because these are outside of her competency. ...

So Science claims, wagging a finger at the Church, but I hardly think she is bound to yield to his sophistications.
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« Reply #344 on: May 26, 2014, 12:54:29 PM »

I expect evolutionism in time to be anathematized as a very important heresy.
To paraphrase Galileo, the Church teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

How very Western. "Paraphrasing Galileo," Europe would then go on to the Reformation, colonialism, and endless blasphemies and wars.
That's about the worst resort to the slippery slope fallacy I've ever seen. You certainly can't blame Galileo for everything that followed him.

Quote
The Church only anathematizes bad theology, she does not anathematize scientific hypotheses much less theories. ...

The Church cannot condemn scientific theories because these are outside of her competency. ...

So Science claims, wagging a finger at the Church, but I hardly think she is bound to yield to his sophistications.
The least you could do for us, Porter, is construct a cogent defense of your point of view. This shoot-from-the-hip irrationality does not become you.
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« Reply #345 on: May 26, 2014, 01:04:12 PM »

Gosh, Galileo just put a zeitgeist into a pithy statement -- who would blame him? And, he was a fine mind. No, what I'm blaming is the ghettoization of the Church that increased from that time forward. Considering the Church was Rome, I am sympathetic with the sentiment that drove the act -- but, ideally, there is no reason for such desperate maneuvers of escape from the rightful Queen of Sciences. Disowning and shackling her, we erected nothing in her place to guide society or to culture the soul of man (the whole of man), and valorously have the devils exploited the gap.

Then God forbid the East should borrow the sins of the West, as though it has not got its own problems.
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« Reply #346 on: May 26, 2014, 01:09:26 PM »

Just saying...

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« Reply #347 on: May 26, 2014, 01:33:25 PM »

Just saying...


This is one of those invented words to try to separate the term "science" from religious truth.  It's very sad that these terms are just thrown around just to justify a theological position.  When I vaccinate little children because of the scientific truth that they will be protected from the disease, am I destroying theological truth? Absolutely not! It is one of the stupidest things that someone will use this argument against those who are religious and scientific in their careers.

Now, are there people that do use science to teach atheism?  Yes! But you seem to be preaching the choir here.  If I go to St. Gregory Palamas Greek Orthodox Church, and I tell them, "Look, here! If you do not uphold Palamas, you are not Orthodox!" They'll look at me like an idiot, "did you read the name of our church?"

Unless you are talking to an atheist, then this post is completely a waste of time.  I could simply post a definition of "iconolatry", and say that "worshipping the wood and paint of icons as if Christ is wood and paint."  That's the type of rubbish Protestants love to write.

No, no good theistic scientist believes in "scientism". Once again, another stupid lumping together of something that does not exist.
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« Reply #348 on: May 26, 2014, 01:35:28 PM »

By this you, like almost any modern
You are a modernist, too.

fail to understand with coherence and sympathy the science of that age
It is the intelligent designers and the scientific creationists who fail to understand the science of that age with coherence and sympathy; because they attempt to anachronistically shoehorn it in to later cosmologies.

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« Reply #349 on: May 26, 2014, 02:26:46 PM »

By this you, like almost any modern
You are a modernist, too.

I'm a modern, in the sense I've been nurtured by this age, correct. 'Modernist' means something different than that, and I meant you are agreeable to the school of thought.

fail to understand with coherence and sympathy the science of that age
It is the intelligent designers and the scientific creationists who fail to understand the science of that age with coherence and sympathy; because they attempt to anachronistically shoehorn it in to later cosmologies.

Well, certainly, they do too and far more showily than you could. Let's order a pizza and berate them together.
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« Reply #350 on: May 26, 2014, 02:30:29 PM »

I blame Galileo for taking us down the slippery slope from the geocentric cosmological literalism of Scripture and straight into Western Copernican heliocentrism.
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« Reply #351 on: June 08, 2014, 05:42:17 AM »

I apologize to all because...

I said that I will post the evidence for the fact that the Bible support the YECism.

I'm still Young Earth Creationist and will not change that. However, because of this issue and many other, I've noticed that I'm moving away from the main point and goal of my faith, which is Christ Himself. I came to the point where I just worried about secondary issues, while ignoring Christ.

I think now I understand why Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do not have an official statement of some sort or teachings on this issue, because it will take the focus from Christ into other matters, and then we will be lost in unnecessary arguments that are not vital for our salvation.

I want you to know that I'm growing in faith, I'm new in faith, I'm starting to know what is more important and what is less and what is not important at all.

I have to say this one more time, I'm a Young Earth Creationist, no change in that at all. But I will never go into argument about it or even try to make anyone accept it.

At this point, I'm more busy in searching for a Church that I can belong to, a home. I have mixed beliefs that will not allow me to belong to any particular church, my beliefs contradict each church, it contradict the Orthodox Church on the matter of Bible and Tradition, and also of the belief in some of Purgatory after death. My beliefs also contradict the Catholic Church is disbelieving that the Poe is vicar of Christ, also on the issue of the Bible and Tradition, And my beliefs contradict the conservative Protestant Churches when it comes to my beliefs about St Mary and the ability for her to appear to people, and the belief that we can pray to her and she can hear us by God's grace. I also contradict all of Protestantism by believing that salvation is by Faith and Works together.  Yep, so I guess there are more important things to work on, other than YECism issue. Please wish me luck  Wink
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« Reply #352 on: June 08, 2014, 11:56:22 AM »

I apologize to all because...

I said that I will post the evidence for the fact that the Bible support the YECism.

I'm still Young Earth Creationist and will not change that. However, because of this issue and many other, I've noticed that I'm moving away from the main point and goal of my faith, which is Christ Himself. I came to the point where I just worried about secondary issues, while ignoring Christ.

I think now I understand why Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do not have an official statement of some sort or teachings on this issue, because it will take the focus from Christ into other matters, and then we will be lost in unnecessary arguments that are not vital for our salvation.

I want you to know that I'm growing in faith, I'm new in faith, I'm starting to know what is more important and what is less and what is not important at all.

I have to say this one more time, I'm a Young Earth Creationist, no change in that at all. But I will never go into argument about it or even try to make anyone accept it.

At this point, I'm more busy in searching for a Church that I can belong to, a home. I have mixed beliefs that will not allow me to belong to any particular church, my beliefs contradict each church, it contradict the Orthodox Church on the matter of Bible and Tradition, and also of the belief in some of Purgatory after death. My beliefs also contradict the Catholic Church is disbelieving that the Poe is vicar of Christ, also on the issue of the Bible and Tradition, And my beliefs contradict the conservative Protestant Churches when it comes to my beliefs about St Mary and the ability for her to appear to people, and the belief that we can pray to her and she can hear us by God's grace. I also contradict all of Protestantism by believing that salvation is by Faith and Works together.  Yep, so I guess there are more important things to work on, other than YECism issue. Please wish me luck  Wink

I 100% respect that, and in this case I don't mind anyone being a YECist, even if I would vehemently disagree with it on academic basis.  But for your spiritual progress, I wouldn't hamper you further on this issue.
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« Reply #353 on: June 16, 2014, 11:18:49 PM »

Just to muddy things a wee bit more:

The Roman Catholic Church used to say in its Christmas Proclamation that Christ was born 5199 years after the creation of the world, but we've revised that to innumerable ages, fairly recently I might add. Like in the past few years recently.

Of course the important part is "the world was created" not "5199 years".
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