Evolutionist, ID, or Creationist? Cast Your Vote!

[jaderook]

Awww, no choice for I could care less?

Anastasios

I'm right there with ya.  I used to promote and debate my preferred view against others, but it certainly didn't help me out spiritually (or anyone else for that matter). 

[Asteriktos]

I guess it all depends. I would say that the evolution issue played an important part in my "spiritual" (ie. despiritualizing) journey. It'd be impossible to quantify exactly how much of an effect it had, but if I had to put a number on it I'd say that it was probably 10% of the reason I became disillusioned with Christianity. I should add though that it wasn't just the evolution vs. creation debate by itself, but also the anthropological beliefs (in the Scriptures and Church Fathers) that seemed to be based primarily on the Genesis text.

[BoredMeeting]

Could someone direct me to a forum where practicing Orthodox Christians weigh in on such subjects?

Thank you so much!

[Asteriktos]

Euphrosynoscafe.com. You'll fit in well there. Tell them Justin sent ya.

[Matthew777]

Euphrosynoscafe.com. You'll fit in well there. Tell them Justin sent ya.

That's a forum not for Orthodox Christians, but Old Calendarist fringe groups.

Peace.

[Matthew777]

But your argument is a red herring, not to mention an appeal to authority (2 fallacies).

I don't see where in Darwin's theory one could find support for atheism.

[lubeltri]

That's a forum not for Orthodox Christians, but Old Calendarist fringe groups.

Asteriktos was having a bit of fun with BoredMeeting.

[Heorhij]

I don't understand this at all. Why don't we all start discussing our "beliefs" about how moving cars came to be? Or these shining light bulbs... what's the best way to characterize my "beliefs" about why they shine?

I believe in God. I believe that God is the author of all things. But when I think or talk or write about biological evolution, I - a biology teacher - simply know that there is no room for theology there, just like there is no room and no necessity in any theology when a person talks or thinks or writes about the work of the internal combustion engine or of an electric circuit. We know facts. Or... we don't. And in this case, we are not "creationists" or, say, "light-bulb-shines-due-to-the-invisible-hand-of-God-ists," but, er,... ignoramuses. 

[PeterTheAleut]

I don't understand this at all. Why don't we all start discussing our "beliefs" about how moving cars came to be? Or these shining light bulbs... what's the best way to characterize my "beliefs" about why they shine?

I believe in God. I believe that God is the author of all things. But when I think or talk or write about biological evolution, I - a biology teacher - simply know that there is no room for theology there, just like there is no room and no necessity in any theology when a person talks or thinks or writes about the work of the internal combustion engine or of an electric circuit. We know facts. Or... we don't. And in this case, we are not "creationists" or, say, "light-bulb-shines-due-to-the-invisible-hand-of-God-ists," but, er,... ignoramuses. 

George,

I don't object to a belief in evolution, for I see evidence for it's validity as a scientific theory.  Though I do have a problem with many of the humanist philosophies that have been built on evolutionary theory--that's a topic totally separate from the science of evolution--I don't see evolutionary theory and Orthodox Christian faith in the creative work of God as diametrically opposed to each other. 

That with which I do take issue is your insistence that evolution is a fact.  AISI, evolutionary theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is the best, most scientific explanation of the origins of life based on the evidence we have before us.  But to be scientifically honest, I just don't think we can call evolution an established fact.  Who knows?  Scientists may discover something ten, twenty, thirty, or even a hundred years from now that shakes our belief in evolution to the very core.  This potential falsifiability is what makes evolutionary theory truly scientific; calling evolution a fact does not--it just makes you dogmatic, and dogma is not falsifiable.

That said, I can't stand creationists, either.  Too much ignorant fear-mongering...  Our God is certainly big enough to withstand the scrutiny of modern science, and I would hope our faith is, too.

[GiC]

I don't understand this at all. Why don't we all start discussing our "beliefs" about how moving cars came to be? Or these shining light bulbs... what's the best way to characterize my "beliefs" about why they shine?

I believe in God. I believe that God is the author of all things. But when I think or talk or write about biological evolution, I - a biology teacher - simply know that there is no room for theology there, just like there is no room and no necessity in any theology when a person talks or thinks or writes about the work of the internal combustion engine or of an electric circuit. We know facts. Or... we don't. And in this case, we are not "creationists" or, say, "light-bulb-shines-due-to-the-invisible-hand-of-God-ists," but, er,... ignoramuses. 

Hear, Hear! Thanks for the dose of common sense.

[GiC]

That with which I do take issue is your insistence that evolution is a fact.  AISI, evolutionary theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is the best, most scientific explanation of the origins of life based on the evidence we have before us.  But to be scientifically honest, I just don't think we can call evolution an established fact.  Who knows?  Scientists may discover something ten, twenty, thirty, or even a hundred years from now that shakes our belief in evolution to the very core.  This potential falsifiability is what makes evolutionary theory truly scientific; calling evolution a fact does not--it just makes you dogmatic, and dogma is not falsifiable.

Science openly admits that it lacks a complete and total understanding of the evolutionary mechanisms that created life and the cosmological forces that created the universe. But it knows that in these theories are the basis of truth, the basis of fact...it is merely the details that have yet to be worked out.

As for creationism, it is merely mythology...there is not in it even a glimmer of fact (whether there is truth is dependent on your personal convictions, but it is utterly devoid of fact). I guess in the end, I should avoid this 'debate', because I cannot honestly take creationists seriously...I'd just laugh in their face.

[Heorhij]

George,

I don't object to a belief in evolution, for I see evidence for it's validity as a scientific theory.  Though I do have a problem with many of the humanist philosophies that have been built on evolutionary theory--that's a topic totally separate from the science of evolution--I don't see evolutionary theory and Orthodox Christian faith in the creative work of God as diametrically opposed to each other. 

That with which I do take issue is your insistence that evolution is a fact.  AISI, evolutionary theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is the best, most scientific explanation of the origins of life based on the evidence we have before us.  But to be scientifically honest, I just don't think we can call evolution an established fact.  Who knows?  Scientists may discover something ten, twenty, thirty, or even a hundred years from now that shakes our belief in evolution to the very core.  This potential falsifiability is what makes evolutionary theory truly scientific; calling evolution a fact does not--it just makes you dogmatic, and dogma is not falsifiable.

That said, I can't stand creationists, either.  Too much ignorant fear-mongering...  Our God is certainly big enough to withstand the scrutiny of modern science, and I would hope our faith is, too.

Peter,

Thank you for your reply. What I was trying to say, though, is that evolution - if defined as the change in the genetic makeup of populations, - is a fact. You can objectively measure frequencies of alleles in populations, and objectively verify that they, indeed, change. You can also tie this change to factors such as mutations, natural selection, genetic drift, migrations, and non-stochastic sexual replication (mating preferences). This real, factual, verifiable evolution may or may not be followed by speciation (depending on the degree of isolation of the two independently evolving populations).

The THEORY is not that evolution exists or not (it does) but that life on our planet, in its totality, is being constantly diversified by the above described process of evolution (change in the genetic makeup of populations). That, indeed, is a theory (of course). But there are many other similarly valid, serious, productive theories in science - for example, the atomic-molecular theory of the structure of matter (yes, a theory!), the theory of electromagnetic field, the theory of gravity, the cellular theory in biology, the clonal selection theory in immunology, the so-called "danger theory" in the present day "postmodernist" immunology (my field), and other.

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