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Poll
Question: What would best describe your beliefs about how the universe and man came to be?
Young Earth Creationism (e.g., earth is less than 10,000 years old) - 16 (13.1%)
Other Creationism (e.g., the "days" in Genesis could each signify very long periods) - 22 (18%)
Theistic Intelligent Design (e.g., we were created by a God, and I *know* which God) - 17 (13.9%)
Deistic Intelligent Design (e.g., the universe was created by God, though I'm not sure which version of God most accurately describes Him) - 1 (0.8%)
Vanilla Intelligent Design (e.g., there was some type of designer, though I don't know if it was a supernatural entity) - 1 (0.8%)
Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution - 10 (8.2%)
Other Evolutionary Theories - 0 (0%)
None of These - 2 (1.6%)
A Mixture of These - 10 (8.2%)
Theistic Evolution - 33 (27%)
Not Sure - 10 (8.2%)
Total Voters: 122

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Author Topic: Evolutionist, ID, or Creationist? Cast Your Vote!  (Read 23831 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: April 09, 2006, 11:13:43 AM »

I know that there are tons of evolution threads (including one currently), so this thread is mostly just for the above poll. I did not include a poll option for theistic evolution, since that is exactly what (theistic) intelligent design is supposed to be (ie. ID theory is evolution, with the difference being that God replaces natural selection [and other mechanisms])
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 11:22:47 AM »

I don't think Intelligent Design is equivalent to Evolution otherwise we wouldn't be having this raging debate between the two sides in the US. I think ID is saying pretty much the same thing as creationism except on a lower level. ID is trying to establish that there are aspects of creation that could not possibly have evolved and hence were spontaneously created; a theory which is very different to the gradual development of evolution. Therefore, I think intelligent design and theistic evolution should be two different categories.
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2006, 11:37:49 AM »

Well I haven't read every intelligent design book, but I have read half a dozen, and think that the way I stated it is pretty much what they're shooting for Wink  The controversy is because of two things: 1) ID dares to suggest that a supernatural entity be a potential part of a scientific theory, which naturalistic/materialistic evolutionists cannot accept; and 2) at least some in the ID movement do seem to have some underlying motives that they aren't being completely forthright about (ie. they would like to use ID as an evangelism tool). Basically, people are making a big deal out of it because they see ID as attempting to place God in contexts that they don't believe he belongs (e.g., science). Also, ID theory does not try to argue that things did not evolve, in fact people like Behe go on and on (alas, to no avail) explaining that they do believe in evolution.

The issue that ID has with Darwinian evolution is the idea that random mutations and modifications down through the billions of years could have produced, well, us (or the other intricate parts of the universe). Apart from a few peripheral thoughts, all ID does is take out natural selection (and other similar mechanisms), and replace it with an Intelligent Designer's guiding hand. If an IDer didn't believe in evolution, then he wouldn't be an IDer, he'd be a young earth creatonist (or perhaps another variety). It is exactly ID's adherence to an evolutionary model (albeit, almost always theistic) that most seperates ID from Young Earth Creationism. Now, as to whether some IDers (in spite of being evolutionists) say that things like irreducible complexity requires that the intelligent designer create certain aspects of the creation whole, I don't know, though there is no reason to go even that far, as a designer can add one piece at a time just as easily as create the whole system at once, if he has the end goal in mind.

However, I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong, so I would modify the poll if I was able to, so that a "Theistic Evolution" option was available. I don't seem to have the power to modify polls though, I'll contact the moderator...
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2006, 12:48:26 PM »

Awww, no choice for I could care less? Wink

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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2006, 02:20:10 PM »

I could care less!?  Wha? You must be in one of those ultra-modernist, ecumenical jurisdictions!  Tongue

On a more serious note though, I take back what I said in my last post--at least to some extent. I went back and went through some ID books, and found Behe to be in agreement with what I said (though I probably shouldn't have said that he went "on and on"), and Johnson to be generally in agreement but a bit less firm in his belief in evolution. However, when I came to Dembski, I found that he actually seemed to have a somewhat different position. I decided not to go any further though as just in these three I saw enough variation to realise that I had overstated my position in my last post.

PS. I believe that "Theistic Evolution" will be added as an option for the poll soon, and I left the option open to change your vote when I originally posted the poll, for anyone who would like to change it.
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2006, 05:36:07 PM »

Hello All

I would personally say that I do accept the idea of evolution (or intellegent design).  However, if this is how God did create man, that leaves open the question of how the original sin came into the world (and thus, the reason for the incarnation).  Any thoughts on how Orthodox theologians who accept the idea of evolution place the idea of the originial sin within their theories?

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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2006, 09:16:13 PM »

I voted mixture:

Theistic ID
Neo-Darwinian Gradualistic Evolution

However, I don't like how you added "gradualistic."  "Neo-Darwinian" I believe is not gradualistic like Darwin himself, unless I'm wrong.  The popular belief is that the rate of evolution changes depending on environmental changes like disasters, in which case the rate of evolution increases.

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« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2006, 12:19:29 AM »

If an IDer didn't believe in evolution, then he wouldn't be an IDer, he'd be a young earth creatonist (or perhaps another variety). It is exactly ID's adherence to an evolutionary model (albeit, almost always theistic) that most seperates ID from Young Earth Creationism. Now, as to whether some IDers (in spite of being evolutionists) say that things like irreducible complexity requires that the intelligent designer create certain aspects of the creation whole, I don't know, though there is no reason to go even that far, as a designer can add one piece at a time just as easily as create the whole system at once, if he has the end goal in mind.

I respect what you're trying to say here, but I can't exactly say that I believe in evolution just because I believe in ID.  I call myself ID because I reject young-earth and other theories of creationism as fundamentalist misuses and misinterpretations of Scripture.  I believe that God created the heavens and the earth, and all things visible and invisible, to include all other forms of life.  I just don't profess to have any clear idea how from a scientific POV that makes room for supernatural explanations.  I actually do have serious problems with believing in evolution, though.
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« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2006, 03:10:18 AM »

My position is day-age creationism because it serves as a balance between what we read in Scripture and what we observe in the natural world.

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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2006, 12:11:43 PM »

I do apologize for the bad wording of the options. I was trying to fit all the beliefs into less than a dozen selections, but probably could have worded things better. With Neo-Darwinism for example I was trying to give one field, and let modified versions like Puncuated Equilibrium in the Other Evolution field. If a poll like this is ever posted again, hopefully people will be able to avoid my mistakes Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 12:43:02 PM »

Any thoughts on how Orthodox theologians who accept the idea of evolution place the idea of the originial sin within their theories?

Richard Swinburne, eminent philosopher of religion and Orthodox Christian, argues in his book Responsibility and Atonement (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1989) that the notion of the Fall can be perfectly reconcialed with evolution if we understand Adam as the first hominid with free will, from whom many are descended, who consciously rejected God.
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 01:07:57 PM »

But how does one reconcile the Orthodox belief that death entered the world only as a result of Adam's sin with evolutionary theories that imply that death has always been present in the Universe?
And a hominid is hardly the perfect Adam created by God and presented as such both in the Holy Scriptures and in the himnography of the Church.
Reading the liturgical texts of the "Sunday of Adam's Expusion from Paradise" might throw some light as to the traditional Orthodox understanding of the first Man.l
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 01:28:44 PM »

But how does one reconcile the Orthodox belief that death entered the world only as a result of Adam's sin with evolutionary theories that imply that death has always been present in the Universe?

Simple, one understands the introduction of Death here as death of the soul (i.e. eternal afterlife apart from God), not death of the body. Many theologians have written on this this.
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 03:15:41 PM »

May I add that St. Athanasius believed that death of man's soul included man leaving Paradise and "entering the world."

It would be interesting to see that sin entered "man's world" not the physical world, since the physical world went through normal physical death the whole time anyway.

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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2006, 07:02:21 PM »

Though I acknowledge that evolution is the best scientific explanation so far, I don't see why it's necessary to mix it with theology. If God's foolishness really is wiser than man's wisdom, then I'm comfortable in being a "creationist".
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2006, 08:09:01 PM »

Simple, one understands the introduction of Death here as death of the soul (i.e. eternal afterlife apart from God), not death of the body. Many theologians have written on this this.

Of course, but then physical death was a dispensation of the Creator so that we would not be eternally stuck in sin. So, we're back to square one.
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2006, 08:12:02 PM »

And a hominid is hardly the perfect Adam created by God and presented as such both in the Holy Scriptures and in the himnography of the Church.

Adam was created without sin, yes, but he was not created completely mature and knowledgeable.
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2006, 08:46:28 PM »

Though I acknowledge that evolution is the best scientific explanation so far, I don't see why it's necessary to mix it with theology. If God's foolishness really is wiser than man's wisdom, then I'm comfortable in being a "creationist".

To add to this comment, science should not question anything concerning God or spirituality and theology and spirituality should not question anything scientific or experimentally/observationally obvious, and both subjects should not contradict one another, but have harmony.

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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2006, 08:49:20 PM »

May I add that St. Athanasius believed that death of man's soul included man leaving Paradise and "entering the world."

It would be interesting to see that sin entered "man's world" not the physical world, since the physical world went through normal physical death the whole time anyway.

Yes, St. Basil explains that point better in his "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith" (Book II, Chapter 30)

"This man He placed in Paradise, a home that was alike spiritual and sensible.  For he lived in the body on the earth in the realm of sense, while he dwelt in the spirit among the angels, cultivating divine thoughts, and being supported by them"

Also, is there any saint that holds death was around before the fall, and if so, for what reason?
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2006, 09:30:16 PM »

St. Athanasius also gives his own clarification.  All creation is essentially/naturally corrupt, but man ALONE was bestowed a grace "different from other animals of the world", the GRACE of incorruption, coming from the inscribed Image in man reflecting the Image of the Logos.

So, yes, man was both sensible and spiritual, in communion with the angels and at the same time with the world.  However, being that they disobeyed, they solely stayed in the world, going through the natural processes the rest of the world is going through, and going even from bad to worse.

Fr. Deacon Andrey Kuraev writes a great thought-provoking article that is in the late Bishop Alexander Mileant's website:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/evolution_kuraev.htm

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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2006, 09:34:17 PM »

Most of the time, I prefer to be ambiguous on what I actually believe on this subject rather than get into an argument.

Peace.
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2006, 10:02:56 PM »

May I add, the late Bishop Alexander Mileant wrote two articles himself (long and short respectively):

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/creation_man_a_mileant_e.htm

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/bible2_creation_e.htm

The former article I didn't read the whole thing, but it does stress that Darwinian evolution does not contradict the Bible, and that there is lots of symbolism as well in the Genesis chapters.

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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2006, 10:08:01 PM »

Darwinian evolution does contradict Scripture. Charles Darwin intended to provide an inherently non-theistic explanation for the origin of species and did so before finding compelling evidence in support. I don't think we should be hostile to the scientific community but it is not necessary to break from tradition on this matter.

Peace.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2006, 10:18:18 PM »

St. Athanasius also gives his own clarification.  All creation is essentially/naturally corrupt, but man ALONE was bestowed a grace "different from other animals of the world", the GRACE of incorruption, coming from the inscribed Image in man reflecting the Image of the Logos.

Can I get a reference for that?
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2006, 10:36:42 PM »

Such are the notions which men put forward. But the impiety of their foolish talk is plainly declared by the divine teaching of the Christian faith. From it we know that, because there is Mind behind the universe, it did not originate itself; because God is infinite, not finite, it was not made from pre-existent matter, but out of nothing and out of non-existence absolute and utter God brought it into being through the Word. He says as much in Genesis: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"; and again through that most helpful book The Shepherd, "Believe thou first and foremost that there is One God Who created and arranged all things and brought them out of non-existence into being." Paul also indicates the same thing when he says, "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that the things which we see now did not come into being out of things which had previously appeared." For God is good—or rather, of all goodness He is Fountainhead, and it is impossible for one who is good to be mean or grudging about anything. Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise. But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things—namely, a law and a place. He set them in His own paradise, and laid upon them a single prohibition. If they guarded the grace and retained the loveliness of their original innocence, then the life of paradise should be theirs, without sorrow, pain or care, and after it the assurance of immortality in heaven. But if they went astray and became vile, throwing away their birthright of beauty, then they would come under the natural law of death and live no longer in paradise, but, dying outside of it, continue in death and in corruption. This is what Holy Scripture tells us, proclaiming the command of God, "Of every tree that is in the garden thou shalt surely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ye shall not eat, but in the day that ye do eat, ye shall surely die." "Ye shall surely die"—not just die only, but remain in the state of death and of corruption.

Part 3 of Chapter 1 of "On the Incarnation"

God bless.

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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2006, 10:50:11 PM »

Ah, so now the context is revealed Smiley

This is hardly saying creation was corrupt because it was without grace. Rather, it is not speaking of the Fall at all, but of the Creation itself: God's image in man.
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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2006, 11:12:16 PM »

Ah, so now the context is revealed Smiley

This is hardly saying creation was corrupt because it was without grace. Rather, it is not speaking of the Fall at all, but of the Creation itself: God's image in man.

I agree. The Bible says God saw His creation and 'it was GOOD'.
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2006, 12:25:20 AM »

Quote
I agree. The Bible says God saw His creation and 'it was GOOD'

Yeah, he did say that, didn't he?. It's almost enough to make one become a supporter of the open view... cause boy was he wrong! Wink
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2006, 12:38:31 AM »

Ummm...

Yes...He did create everything good.  What is good and natural for animals is not necessarily good and natural for human beings.  You missed the part where St. Athanasius says that man was "essentially impermanent."  And St. Athanasius also said that after they disobeyed God and did what was prohibited, they went subject to the "natural law of death" and died "outside of Paradise."  In other words, the world was not Paradise.  What happened in the Garden of Eden did not happen to the rest of the world.  And the fact that St. Athanasius calls the law of death "natural" means that it was natural for the world outside the Paradise, the Garden of Eden to live under the laws of death and "corruption."

I don't know how more clear can this get.  Please read the articles provided by Bishop Alexander Mileant, who is a very conservative Orthodox (would also call me a heretic), which provides clarification of proper Scriptural interpretation.

God bless.

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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2006, 12:42:24 AM »

Oftentimes, it seems that Christians accept Darwinian evolution out of fear of embaressment, that they would be considered backward in the eyes of the world otherwise. Still others seem to be creationists out of resentment toward the scientific community. But I would prefer not to think of myself as an "evolutionist" or a "creationist" because both are thoroughly Western terms. Can't I be an Orthodox Christian who believes the patristic tradition on Genesis and leave it at that? Part of the mystery of faith is not being able to explain every detail of God's creative work.
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2006, 12:50:02 AM »

Oftentimes, it seems that Christians accept Darwinian evolution out of fear of embaressment, that they would be considered backward in the eyes of the world otherwise. Still others seem to be creationists out of resentment toward the scientific community. But I would prefer not to think of myself as an "evolutionist" or a "creationist" because both are thoroughly Western terms. Can't I be an Orthodox Christian who believes the patristic tradition on Genesis and leave it at that? Part of the mystery of faith is not being able to explain every detail of God's creative work.

Well, I like to think of myself as a scientist, and studying science, especially medicine, I tend to think and believe that God leaves us experimental and observational means to learn from the world, and to use this knowledge for the praise and glory of God.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2006, 01:06:30 AM »

Fr. Seraphim Rose demonstrates that it is unorthodox to say that death, in absolute any form, existed even before the Fall. Bodily death is nothing but a reflection of spiritual death and, at the same time a God chosen  means of putting an end to sin.
The Earth was cursed because of Adam's Fall; ant the same Earth (the entire irrational creation) is to be freed from the slavery of death, at the end of time, along with the rational creatures.
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2006, 01:12:08 AM »

Fr. Seraphim Rose's beliefs are attacked by the late Bishop Alexander Mileant and Fr. Deacon Andrey Kuraev.  He also seems to contradict the language of St. Athanasius.  Like I said, man was put under the "natural" law of death.  That means that it was natural, and not a curse, for the world to have death.  Only man's world, his personal world was corrupted, for God made it unnatural for man to be under the Earth's natural law of death.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2006, 01:21:34 AM »

Now, I don't have Fr. Seraphim's book at hand, but, as I recall, there are plenty of patristic quotations there that proove his points.
Death is by no means natural. The Holy Scriptures call it "the last ennemy" to be destroyed by Christ; St. Paul, in Romans, shows clearly, how the fate of the Earth is linked to the fate of mankind.
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2006, 01:30:09 AM »

Yeah, he did say that, didn't he?. It's almost enough to make one become a supporter of the open view... cause boy was he wrong!
God was right. Always has been. It is man that chose to be wrong, bringing sin into the world.
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2006, 01:31:08 AM »

Oftentimes, it seems that Christians accept Darwinian evolution out of fear of embaressment, that they would be considered backward in the eyes of the world otherwise. Still others seem to be creationists out of resentment toward the scientific community. But I would prefer not to think of myself as an "evolutionist" or a "creationist" because both are thoroughly Western terms. Can't I be an Orthodox Christian who believes the patristic tradition on Genesis and leave it at that? Part of the mystery of faith is not being able to explain every detail of God's creative work.

I'm with you 100% on that!
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2006, 01:34:50 AM »

“Long ago (in the 4th century!) one of the Church's teachers Vasilius the Great wrote about this. He advised the Orthodox Christians neither to rely upon the scientific data in order to provide foundation for their faith in Christ, nor to try to disprove them, because “the scientists permanently disprove themselves.”

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/age-of-earth.htm



“No on should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory” said St Ephraim the Syrian

 

St. Basil the Great in his Hexatemeron says “Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written.”
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2006, 01:37:34 AM »

Now, I don't have Fr. Seraphim's book at hand, but, as I recall, there are plenty of patristic quotations there that proove his points.
Death is by no means natural. The Holy Scriptures call it "the last ennemy" to be destroyed by Christ; St. Paul, in Romans, shows clearly, how the fate of the Earth is linked to the fate of mankind.
Fr Seraphim Rose said this about Genesis “Some Protestant fundamentalists tell us it is all (or virtually all) 'literal.” But such a view places us in some impossible difficulties: quite apart form our literal or non-literal interpretation of various passages, the very nature of the reality which is described in the first chapters of genesis the very creation of all things) makes it quite impossible for everything to be understood 'literally'; we don't even have words, for example, to describe 'literally' how something can come from nothing. How does God “speak”? - does He make a noise which resounds in an atmosphere that doesn't yet exist?” (Genesis Creation and Early Man, p69).



“Undoubtedly, one of the most important causes of heresy is the failure to understand the exact nature of the human situation described by the Old and New Testaments, to which the historical events of the birth, teachings, death, resurrection and second coming of Christ are the only remedy. The failure to understand this automatically implies a perverted understanding of what it is that Christ did and continues to do for us, and what our subsequent relation is to Christ and neighbour within the realm of salvation. The importance of a correct definition of original sin and its consequences can never be exaggerated. Any attempt to minimize its importance or alter its significance automatically entails either a weakening or even a complete misunderstanding of the nature of the Church, sacraments and human destiny.” http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frjr_sin.htm. Thus, it is meaningless, or worse still utterly wrong to downplay the relationships established in Genesis. It is the beginning of the story of Man, and the story of Man's sin. Without it, why would Jesus come to us?

This is not a novel approach to reading Genesis, in fact it is the allegorical approach that is novel! Countless Christian thinkers have throughout the centuries held to the literal truth...

 

St.Macarius the Great of Egypt in commenting on Genesis 3:24 said “This is a passage which many of us might have expected to have only a mystical meaning, but this great seer of Divine things assures us that is is also true “just as it is written” for those capable of seeing it.” (pp85-6 Seraphim Rose “Genesis, Creation and Early Man: The Orthodox Christian Vision)


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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2006, 01:40:42 AM »

The Patristics Fr. Seraphim Rose used, although not taken out of context literally, but rather taken out of context culturally or generationally.  In that age, science and philosophies were not that advanced, at least in most cultures.  The Holy Fathers never rejected observational and scientific research at the time it was given them.  Please read this part:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/creation_man_a_mileant_e.htm#_Toc67449479

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2006, 01:56:15 AM »

I don't know why this is such a polarized debate.  As someone who is something of an ecologist and an Orthodox Christian as well, this is very frustrating and baffling to me.  First of all, I think that scientists and so-called theologians who say that God can't possibly be involved in creation, because the randomness of natural selection "proves" this are unbelievably and shockingly juvenile in their outlook.  Secondly, I think that people who say that the earth was created only a few thousand years ago because that is what the Bible says about the matter are just as out to lunch.  It's a real tempest in a teapot.  This is all the product of the Western Church agreeing to meet Galileo and others on their own "playing field", (the playing field of sceintific rationalism).  Of course the earth goes around the sun in its orbit: what of it?  The Western Church has basically been struggling to justify itself in the light of scientific rationalism ever since, because we all know that nothing is more important,ultimately, than rationalism, isn't that right?  Tongue  Okay, here's something to think about,kids: just because something is not rational, doesn't mean that it is automatically irrational.  Here's a concept for you: the  supra-rational.  Wow.  You mean that something can be beyond the rational?  Scientific heresy!  To believe such a thing you must be scorned and ridiculed!

On the other  side of the ledger........It is so obvious that evolution happened and is continuuing to happen.  The exact way in which it happened is not clear.  But this is all.  The evidence is simply far too strong to deny.  (Evidence from reputable sources, I mean.)  

I have no problem with saying that God is creating through evolution, even though it looks "random" to our puny human minds.  (However, I don't subscribe to pseudo-scientific theories of ID, either.)  

This is where I am coming from.  I ask forgiveness from any I may have offended for expressing this POV.  Ultimately, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, no matter what we believe about this matter, and that is what is important.
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« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2006, 02:03:14 AM »

This is not a novel approach to reading Genesis, in fact it is the allegorical approach that is novel! Countless Christian thinkers have throughout the centuries held to the literal truth...

Neither approach is "novel"!  I guess it depends on whether you are more Alexandrian or Antiochian in your thinking.  Countless Christian thinkers throughout the centuries have also held to the allegorical truth.  So what?
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2006, 02:10:04 AM »

My sole concern with accepting any of the evolutionary theories s that they would make death something as old as God's creation, present therein even from the first moment of it. And, in my understanding this is plainly unorthodox.
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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2006, 03:33:02 AM »

The Patristics Fr. Seraphim Rose used, although not taken out of context literally, but rather taken out of context culturally or generationally.  In that age, science and philosophies were not that advanced, at least in most cultures.  The Holy Fathers never rejected observational and scientific research at the time it was given them.  Please read this part:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/creation_man_a_mileant_e.htm#_Toc67449479

God bless.

Mina

Which means that you can question all of the Fathers based on the possibility that one day science might prove them 'wrong'.
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« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2006, 07:42:43 AM »

montalban

Quote
Vasilius the Great...

Do you have any idea who Vasilius is, or do you just cut and paste anything that seems to support your position and take it on faith that it's true?

Quote
God was right. Always has been. It is man that chose to be wrong, bringing sin into the world.

My point, which was half meant in jest, was that if God was truly all-knowing, then he couldn't possibly have said that things were good, because he would be able to see the hell on earth that would surely dominate his creation (so much so that he would need a flood to destroy everything except 8 people... and then after the flood the wickedness would just continue on as though nothing happened). An omniscient God saying that things were "good" in that case would be like someone expressing satisfaction that they had finally tuned a radio station in, in spite of the fact that they could plainly see that they would unavoidably soon fall off a cliff. It's just humorous to take such a story so seriously.
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« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2006, 08:03:34 AM »

montalban

Do you have any idea who Vasilius is,
As far as I'm aware he's the guy I quoted.   Grin
An Orthodox saint. Didn't you read the web-page?
or do you just cut and paste anything that seems to support your position and take it on faith that it's true?
If it supports my case then I would accept it to be true. Are you saying
a) he didn't say what I said he said
or
b) something else?
My point, which was half meant in jest, was that if God was truly all-knowing, then he couldn't possibly have said that things were good, because he would be able to see the hell on earth that would surely dominate his creation
And your half-jest misses the point. When He created the world IT WAS GOOD. Anything 'bad' came later.
(so much so that he would need a flood to destroy everything except 8 people... and then after the flood the wickedness would just continue on as though nothing happened).
Which happened after the creation
An omniscient God saying that things were "good" in that case would be like someone expressing satisfaction that they had finally tuned a radio station in, in spite of the fact that they could plainly see that they would unavoidably soon fall off a cliff. It's just humorous to take such a story so seriously.
Okay, I'll take your posts less seriously in future.
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