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Linus7
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2003, 10:01:37 PM »

Ebor -

True, but how likely are Amish to be participating in an internet web site like this one?

Of course, there are sooooo many Protestant sects one is likely to find almost anything.

But in general the "Two Pillars of the Reformation," Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, will be held in common by most of them.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2003, 10:03:22 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2003, 08:04:20 AM »

Ebor -

True, but how likely are Amish to be participating in an internet web site like this one?

Of course, there are sooooo many Protestant sects one is likely to find almost anything.

But in general the "Two Pillars of the Reformation," Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, will be held in common by most of them.

Well, they do not in general even agree on what Sola Scriptura means-- a (well-informed) Anglican or Methodist is likely to give you a different answer on this than a fundamentalist. (Of course, they could then argue as whether the Anglican is Protestant in the first place.)

To get back on the topic: it seems to me to be a waste of time to create a forum whose purpose would be to give a place to put vague denuciations of whatever someone wants to claim that Protestants in general believe. If Protestants want to come to such a place, it would seem charitable to confront them as persons and not demand that they defend the practices of groups of which they are not members.

On another subject-- I have taken a little time to hunt down a copy of Barrett and have some analysis of the numbers. I'm going to post it separately over in the free-for-all since it is far off-topic here.
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« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2003, 08:17:43 AM »

Is it possible that someone somewhere has the relevant bits of Barretts online? I have no access to such books over here, though our library where I work has HUGE resources for biblical Greek Grin.

I'd appreciate whatever you can find out Keble.

John
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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2003, 09:18:10 AM »

Barrett is not on-line (or shouldn't be). The most recent edition is 2001, and the set costs about $270 US. It's two volumes, large format, lots of fine print-- A massive doorstop only slightly less massive than a pulpit bible, and with four times as many words. At least.

I've seen some on-line articles on it which quoted certain numbers. One in particular referred to Lutheran numbers which immediately rang alarm bells.

Unfortunately my first post on the subject timed out....
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« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2003, 04:06:00 PM »

Ebor -

True, but how likely are Amish to be participating in an internet web site like this one?

Of course, there are sooooo many Protestant sects one is likely to find almost anything.

But in general the "Two Pillars of the Reformation," Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, will be held in common by most of them.

Whether there are Amish who would come here, I know not, though using modern technology is not forbidden until a person has joined the Amish church, usually in young adulthood.  But I do know that there are Mennonites and Hutterites on-line, so it would be possible for one or some to come here. None of us, except possibly the moderators know everyone who may be viewing these pages.  Even if none of a particular church or group should ever see this forum, the truth about their beliefs or any other groups doctrines should be upheld and not broad generalizations/one-idea-fits-all brush-offs.  As I hope all of us would want the truth about our churches and beliefs written of by others.

Ebor
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« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2003, 05:44:26 PM »

I am willing to debate Protestants as individuals and with the appropriate courtesy and kindness.

I have a fair amount of experience in doing so and never resorted to the sorts of ad hominem attacks, name-calling, reviling, and mockery that many of them used against me, against other Orthodox and Roman Catholic posters, and against the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.

Just the same, I think insisting that there are no beliefs common to most Protestants is mere quibbling.

The typical Evangelical Protestant one will encounter is going to be a believer in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Most of them will believe in the "invisible church" ecclesiology, that the sacraments are mere symbolic ordinances, and that one is saved forever without possibility of condemnation in a moment of instantaneous conversion.

The rare exceptions will provide a refreshing change of pace.

If we encounter any Amish or Hutterites, I will be surprised, but I've been surprised before.





« Last Edit: April 02, 2003, 05:45:54 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2003, 01:36:44 AM »

Linus,

Quote
The typical Evangelical Protestant one will encounter is going to be a believer in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

I'm with you so far....

Quote
Most of them will believe in the "invisible church" ecclesiology, that the sacraments are mere symbolic ordinances, and that one is saved forever without possibility of condemnation in a moment of instantaneous conversion.

I would not agree with you here.  While most subscribe to "invisible church" ecclesiology the last two statements are only found among Baptist/Reformed churches.

Lutherans take the sacraments of baptism(remember they baptise infants as well) and the eucharist as salvific and not mere ordinances.  There are also a few Lutheran churches that practice confession.  

I believe that Anglicans can vary quite a bit in their view of the sacraments, but there are many who view them as salvific and no Anglican is an adherant of eternal security.  

Even Methodists, Wesleyans, Mennonites, and trinitarian-Charismatics disregard eternal security as well as Arminian-influenced Baptists.  While the average poster may fall into the Baptist/Reformed/Nondenom group that fits your description, I think it is uncharitable to lump all protestants into this group.  

This is not to say that I think we should be involved in holding-hands ecumenism and sharing the chalice; there are significant differences and no Protestant would be considered a member of the Church as Orthodoxy claims the Church to be.  I don't think we will see within our great-grandchildren's lifetimes a reconciliation between any protestant group and the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church but we might see many people and entire parishes rejoin the ancient wellspring of Christianity.
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« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2003, 02:30:59 PM »

Amator Dei -

Notice that I issued the qualifier "most" when I referred to what Protestants believe.

As a former Lutheran, and as a person who has at one time or another attended just about every major brand of Protestant church, I am familiar with the beliefs of those who differ from those I described.

I still believe, based on my experience, that most of the Protestants one will encounter on debate fora will be Baptist types who believe the things I described.

There will be exceptions, of course, but they will be a refreshing change of pace.
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« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2003, 09:49:23 PM »

Here's a post I made some time back that indicates something of my perspective on Protestants:

Re:For There Must Also be Heresies Among You
-½ Reply #9 on: Wed, February 05, 2003, 07:23:20 PM -+    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess we are all in agreement here thus far! That's a good thing, since we're all Orthodox Christians!

I have another question for everyone:

What about those Protestants who are "more orthodox" than the rest?

I am thinking specifically of very conservative Anglicans who are trying to find and preserve the Apostolic Tradition; you know, the kind of guys who usually wind up with us in the long run.

And what of the Roman Catholics?

I know they are off on many things, but I would hardly put them in the same class with Baptists.

How far do we go with these folks?

No one wants to alienate them, but we don't want them to think they're totally okay, either.

I hate to keep harping on my debating experiences at www.christianbbs.com , but I have often found certain types of Protestants, as well as Roman Catholics, who make common cause with me on issues like the sacraments, Sola Scriptura, veneration of the saints, etc.

It is difficult to see these people in the same light as the "Fundie fringe."

They can very easily be brought into the Orthodox Church because they seem to already have one foot in the door.

What about them?


See - I'm not as doctrinaire as some of you think I am, nor do I think all Protestants should be lumped together into one category.

Am I a sensitive guy, or what?  Shocked
« Last Edit: April 04, 2003, 09:52:12 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2003, 12:47:46 AM »

Friends,

For right now we have decided not to have the Orthodox-Protestant discussion area.  If enough Protestants start joining the board and there is a need, we will bring the issue back up.

Sincerely in Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2003, 02:40:09 AM »

Hello all!

I just recently stumbled (today, actually) across this site and am reading through some of the threads.  Up front, I will say that I'm a confessional Lutheran but was once an Orthodox inquirer for about 9 months, which was spurred primarily by the fact that my wife is Orthodox and I was doing my part to promote familial unity.  So far, I haven't read anything in this board that I would deem offensive.  I find it interesting that some in this thread have described unpleasant experiences in other Protestant boards.  Let me just say that if I'm participating in any Protestant discussion group and non-Prot guests are treated rudely, I will be the first to speak against it.  Before my inquirer days, I was always a vigorous defender of the Orthodox Church when discussing theology with Protestants.  Having said that, I have to tell you that I've received discourteous treatment from Orthodox, online and in person, by simply bringing up anything that they consider "off limits" or when trying to correct misinformation.  For example, at times I found my messages being censored and snipped when participating in the orthodox converts group over at Yahoo, though there was nothing rude in my posts nor anything in my posts that I could determine broke any rules.  Others emailed me privately describing similar experiences.  I don't think it's realistic to promote any converts forum without expecting to face sceptical and challenging inquirers.  That's the nature of inviting "thinking" converts.  I've been to catechism sessions in Lutheran and Cathoic parishes and never once witnessed the hostility to open inquiries that I've experienced in Orthodoxy.

I don't rule out one day returning to my Orthodox inquiring, but the flakiness, let alone the haughtiness, of the crowd I came into contact with remains firmly in my memory.  The complimentary "your humble Billy Bob sinner" epithet gets ridiculous when the guy treats others in anything but a humble manner.  What's fascinating is that the Orthodox I've encountered don't seem to care how they come off to others.  It's interesting that Orthodox have received similar treatment from Prots, because I have generally attributed the crude treatment I received from them to the fact that so many of them were former fundamentalist Prots or neo-pagans who came over with baggage, sometimes with outright hatred for their former denominations.

Anyway, thats my $.02.  I'm not interested in getting into theological or apologetic debates because I've been through that dog and pony show enough times to know that it gets nowhere in solving complex disputes that have gone unsettled for hundreds of years.  I'm firmly convinced that whatever faith or denomination a person lands in, it has little to do with a thoroughly reasoned out investigation and more to do with deeper psychological processes and past experiences, usually the negative ones.  The reasoned out reasons always come after the person already has had an emotional turning.

All the best.
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« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2003, 04:08:41 PM »

Emphases added by me.

Quote
Having said that, I have to tell you that I've received discourteous treatment from Orthodox, online and in person, by simply bringing up anything that they consider "off limits" or when trying to correct misinformation.  For example, at times I found my messages being censored and snipped when participating in the orthodox converts group over at Yahoo, though there was nothing rude in my posts nor anything in my posts that I could determine broke any rules.  Others emailed me privately describing similar experiences.  I don't think it's realistic to promote any converts forum without expecting to face sceptical and challenging inquirers.  That's the nature of inviting "thinking" converts.  I've been to catechism sessions in Lutheran and Cathoic parishes and never once witnessed the hostility to open inquiries that I've experienced in Orthodoxy.

Mirrors some of my experience online - not in person.

Quote
I don't rule out one day returning to my Orthodox inquiring, but the flakiness, let alone the haughtiness, of the crowd I came into contact with remains firmly in my memory.  The complimentary "your humble Billy Bob sinner" epithet gets ridiculous when the guy treats others in anything but a humble manner.  What's fascinating is that the Orthodox I've encountered don't seem to care how they come off to others.  It's interesting that Orthodox have received similar treatment from Prots, because I have generally attributed the crude treatment I received from them to the fact that so many of them were former fundamentalist Prots or neo-pagans who came over with baggage, sometimes with outright hatred for their former denominations.


Well put. You aren't the first person to say those things about Eastern Orthodox forums online and probably won't be the last.

Quote
Anyway, thats my $.02.  I'm not interested in getting into theological or apologetic debates because I've been through that dog and pony show enough times to know that it gets nowhere in solving complex disputes that have gone unsettled for hundreds of years.  I'm firmly convinced that whatever faith or denomination a person lands in, it has little to do with a thoroughly reasoned out investigation and more to do with deeper psychological processes and past experiences, usually the negative ones.  The reasoned out reasons always come after the person already has had an emotional turning.

Again, well put and probably true of most people.
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« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2003, 05:19:23 PM »

That's why I like our forum here.  People are generally very nice.  There are hot debates and sometimes namecalling but nowhere near like on Orthodox Forum on yahoo groups or the "indiana list."

Btw I was raised a Lutheran.

In Christ,

anastasios
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« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2003, 09:03:41 PM »

Quote
Anyway, thats my $.02.  I'm not interested in getting into theological or apologetic debates because I've been through that dog and pony show enough times to know that it gets nowhere in solving complex disputes that have gone unsettled for hundreds of years.  I'm firmly convinced that whatever faith or denomination a person lands in, it has little to do with a thoroughly reasoned out investigation and more to do with deeper psychological processes and past experiences, usually the negative ones.  The reasoned out reasons always come after the person already has had an emotional turning.

I agree with that to a point. Of course there are psychological processes and past experiences involved in conversion, and there is the Holy Spirit, who goes where He will and affects each one differently.

But for many of us conversion to Orthodoxy came in the face of lots of familial, emotional, and psychological reasons not to convert and had practically nothing to do with bad experiences with the former denomination.

I, for one, was a Lutheran and the descendant of Lutherans. In fact, my fifth great grandfather and grandmother were married by Rev. Heinrich Melchior Muehlenberg in Trinity Lutheran Church in downtown Lancaster, PA, in 1781. If you don't think that fact created an emotional and psychological bond for me, well, you're much mistaken.

I never had a bad experience with the Lutheran Church (I attended both the LCMS and the ELCA), in fact, just the opposite.

When I was a teenager I was involved in the Southern Baptist Church, in Campus Crusade for Christ, and in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

I never had any bad experiences with any of those organizations either.

I became Orthodox because I became convinced that Orthodoxy is the truth. I will not deny that processes other than reason were involved; of course they were.

But it also cost me something to become Orthodox, which I guess is one of the reasons why I treasure the Church so much.

She is the Pearl of Great Price: not cheaply had . . . and worth it!
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« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2003, 06:11:32 PM »

Dear in Christ Anastasie

   If you  are still wondering which way a Protestant-Odox forum should go, perhaps the following will give you an idea; I posted mention of this in the wrong place, as (title) Nikolai has just pointed out to me.

"Reply to Paul Negrut's Protestant critique of Orthodoxy"

http://www.orlapubs.com/AR/R272.html

Christ reigns!

Afanasiy Bailey
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