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Author Topic: Protestant Forum?  (Read 9268 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasios
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« on: March 30, 2003, 07:52:07 PM »

Friends,

Since we were blacklisted at christianbbs.com, and since some great Protestant friends have joined Orthodoxchrsitiantiy.net, we are tinkering with the idea of having an Orthodox-Protestant discussion area where polite discussion could transpire.

Obviously this is an Orthodox forum, and the presumption is that Orthodoxy is the true faith.  However, just as Catholics are allowed more leeway* in the Catholic-Orthodox discussion forum, we would offer the same to Protestants in the Protestant-Orthodox forum.

What do you all think?

anastasios

* leeway in the sense that Catholics are free to disagree with Orthodoxy and make points in a way that they could not do in the "Faith" forum, for instance, where Orthodoxy is "the" faith under discussion.
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2003, 08:19:39 PM »

Hmmm . . .

I have mixed feelings about it, honestly.

Although we disagree with many RC innovations, the Roman Church has largely preserved the deposit of faith intact, and she is of apostolic foundation.

Protestantism, on the other hand, is a dangerous, multi-faceted, multifarious, fissiparous heresy. It has the character of a cancer: its cells are constantly dividing, changing, and multiplying.

Find a "cure" for one variety of the disease and, before you know it, it has spawned new and mutant variations.

It would be nice to have a forum in which to discuss Protestant doctrines; but, just the same, I have my misgivings.

This is a nice site now. I wonder how the introduction of rabid, Fundamentalist Protestantism could alter that.



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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2003, 08:27:59 PM »

We could call it The Narthex  Grin

If they get unruly and start protestin' there is always ...

The Doors ... The Doors !

On a more serious note,
Since any reasoned discussion over at CBBS is being censored and airbrushed to cover the truth, it might be fruitful to provide a discussion forum for inquirers to discuss those issues that may be a stumbling block to coming home to the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2003, 08:59:43 PM »

Well, one thing is sure: if a Protestant Forum is begun here, I absolutely will NOT pull any punches.

I will be kind to individual Protestants, but I will dissect their heresies in a way I was not allowed to do over at "Protestants R Us."

I do not "know it all," but I do know a thing or two about what Protestants believe.

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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2003, 09:07:42 PM »

We would keep it utterly contained, in other words, any "spillover" to other forae would be deleted immediately.

I am troubled by the way it could go, though, in any case so we are thinking this out carefully.

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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2003, 09:22:27 PM »

...other forae ....

anastasios

Dear anastasios,

I think it might be helpful (I am actually very interested) but, like you mention, it might be hard to contain.

BTW, according to http://www.m-w.com
the plural of forum is either forums or fora.  Forum is a neuter Latin noun like datum so the plural is -a.  Formula since it is feminine becomes formulas or formulae the -ae being distinctive of the feminine plural.  These are noticeable similarities with Greek.  Forums and formulas are obviously English forms not respecting the original language inflections.  

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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2003, 10:25:05 PM »

I think it would be nearly impossible to contain. The new "members" would be creating all sorts of anti-Orthodox and anti-Roman Catholic threads, posting pictures of hierarchs and especially the Pope, complete with insulting captions. Name-calling, mockery, sarcasm, and reviling are the chief "arguments" these folks employ.

That is exactly what goes on over at "Protestants R Us."

It would be a fulltime job to control it.

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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2003, 10:37:50 PM »

Quote
posting pictures of hierarchs and especially the Pope, complete with insulting captions.

But remember, the staff and coders here are Orthodox, imagine the possiblities  

if {$USER=="berean"} {
   ....
}



 Grin
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2003, 10:37:56 PM »

True but do we see SSPX people fighting with us due to having a Orthodox-Catholic discussion area?

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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2003, 10:40:46 PM »

Two questions:

1.  What are "the possibilities"?

2.  What are SSPX people?

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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2003, 10:51:33 PM »

Quote
What are "the possibilities"?

Hmmm ...

In reality, we could have much fun, with redirection of intended graphics, signatures and the like, but to do so would be to stoop down to that level which we have been treated to at CBBS.

All of which makes me back up a bit and perhaps wonder that if we were to provide the freedom to post here, that we would like to have over at CBBS, it might be a mistake.
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2003, 10:58:19 PM »

That is a dilemma.

Of course, I understand perfectly why they have begun censoring us.

First, they cannot defeat us in open debate.

Second, they really believe what they believe and are troubled at the effect we are having over there.

Since they regard us as apostates, they feel justified in shutting us down.

I suppose I might do the same thing if I were in their shoes.

I certainly do not want this web site to turn into a platform for maladjusted Fundamentalist Protestants like B53.
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2003, 11:03:10 PM »

SSPX=fundamentalist Catholics
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2003, 11:05:05 PM »

Ah . . . Latin Mass guys!

Understood!  Wink
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2003, 11:15:42 PM »

But on the other hand, do we close our doors to keep those like B53 out, and shut out the next MtC ?  Of course, we can answer the tough questions, but we cannot let anarchy reign (as it does elsewhere)

What is the answer ??
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2003, 11:34:21 AM »

Well there are a few things we would need to keep it from getting out of hand.

1. Cooperation from Orthodox forum members - We do not DO NOT need an Orthodox version of Berean who posts supposedly insulting images and lists nontopical bible quotations instead of charitibly debating with each other.  

2. Cooperation with sympathetic non-Orthodox forum members - people like Lance, dadof10, etc who are not Orthodox, yet are polite and respectful and very welcome here as forum members.  Not only shall we bear witness to Orthodoxy to people like these who perhaps are beginning to have "ears to hear" but if they can engage in meangful discussion without mudslinging they might be willing to tell others about the site.  

3. Cooperation with the Admins/Moderators - The five of us here who can lock, delete, and generally prune threads would have to agree to put in a bit of extra time to help with this, at least at first until the regulars would learn the ground rules.  If we get someone like Berean who insists on insulting us without providing any substance to the discussion, then not only will we vigilantly delete any off-forum threads/posts he creates, but we will also establish a line to cross to remain a member.  We will let people argue as they will openly as we have nothing to fear, but if they refuse to participate and instead want to spam the board we will quickly and politely show them the door.  

As the only former protestant among the Admins/Moderators I am willing to take on most of the effort of keeping this forum inline.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2003, 10:14:38 PM »

Okay . . . so what happens once you've established this forum?

Do we go out into the internet highyways and invite Protestants to stop in?

This being a country with a Protestant majority, there is the possibility that we could be overwhelmed by sheer weight of numbers.

I don't know . . .

I'm a former Protestant, too, which is why I think I understand that Protestantism is a whole other religion, separate and distinct from historic Christianity.

I believe in evangelizing them through apologetics, but I would prefer to see it done "behind the lines," i.e., on their own web sites.

Still, I'm all for whatever you all decide. I'll help out as much as I can.  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2003, 11:06:25 PM »

I'm still going back and forth.  BTW, I am a former Lutheran, turned Byzantine Catholic, on the road to Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2003, 11:13:18 PM »

Of course, most of them will skeedaddle quick once their cherished notions are skewered, but the more rabid will stick it out.

I'm a former Protestant, too, which is why I think I understand that Protestantism is a whole other religion, separate and distinct from historic Christianity.


Or perhaps some will "skeedaddle" when they appear in good faith and are subjected instead to "skewering" by converts who no longer respect the faith that led them to where they are now.

I smile at your confidence that you can defeat any of them in "open debate". In open debate, after all, you will not be able to rely upon the Eastern church's authorities-- you will have to demosntrate them. In any case, I fail to see the point of establishing a forum whose purpose, in your eyes, is to drive all guests away. Or perhaps it is to attract cranks which you may intellectually torment for your own entertainment. (I've been around that one with an atheist of late. He failed to understand why I refused to bandy words with him.)

The very notion of "a" forum for Protestantism is an exercise in futility, hough. I might make sense to have an Anglican forum (if you'll promise not to bring up Jack Spong) or maybe a Lutheran or Reformed forum. Really, though, mostly what Protestants have in common is rejection of Roman/Eastern errors and presumptions, and they hardly even agree on what those are. I fail to see the point.
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2003, 11:13:21 PM »

We could be a little bit more devious and set up a second database and have a url like "christianfaith.com" where all the mods are really Orthodox but we let Protestantism flourish on the surface but keep letting Orthodox plugs get in subtly! hehe  Cool

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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2003, 11:22:19 PM »

I think all of you may be thinking of this on a different scale than I am.  I am not saying we should go on the offensive and challenge protestants to come here and defend their doctrines "if they dare", but to provide a place for our site members who are protestants(yes there are a few) to have a place to discuss differences between protestantism and Orthodoxy.  

Linus, Oblio, et al were doing a good thing with their excellent catechesis and gentle manner on christianbbs.com.  With the current changes, they will not be allowed to continue, yet I think good things might happen if they left a message saying that those members who agreed with some of what we were saying and would like to discuss it further are welcome to join in OC.net especially in the new Protestant Forum where protestant differences with Orthodoxy can be discussed without drowing out the Faith and Liturgy forums for those who don't care to read protestant theological teachings.  

We don't want to inundate the forum with these people, but we have a handfull of them now who may wish to stay for a while if we welcome them, in exactly the same manner as the Catholic forum does for our several members who are Catholics.
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2003, 11:23:42 PM »

Of course, most of them will skeedaddle quick once their cherished notions are skewered, but the more rabid will stick it out.

I'm a former Protestant, too, which is why I think I understand that Protestantism is a whole other religion, separate and distinct from historic Christianity.


Or perhaps some will "skeedaddle" when they appear in good faith and are subjected instead to "skewering" by converts who no longer respect the faith that led them to where they are now.

I smile at your confidence that you can defeat any of them in "open debate". In open debate, after all, you will not be able to rely upon the Eastern church's authorities-- you will have to demosntrate them. In any case, I fail to see the point of establishing a forum whose purpose, in your eyes, is to drive all guests away. Or perhaps it is to attract cranks which you may intellectually torment for your own entertainment. (I've been around that one with an atheist of late. He failed to understand why I refused to bandy words with him.)

The very notion of "a" forum for Protestantism is an exercise in futility, hough. I might make sense to have an Anglican forum (if you'll promise not to bring up Jack Spong) or maybe a Lutheran or Reformed forum. Really, though, mostly what Protestants have in common is rejection of Roman/Eastern errors and presumptions, and they hardly even agree on what those are. I fail to see the point.


A valid point but as you can see from the Catholic-Orthodox discussion area, we don't get that many posts from Catholics so if we started the Protestant forum we wouldn't want to subdivide it into categories for each denomination and then have noone from that denomination post.

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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2003, 11:54:46 PM »

Quote
Really, though, mostly what Protestants have in common is rejection of Roman/Eastern errors and presumptions, and they hardly even agree on what those are. I fail to see the point.

What they have in common is the elevation of the individual and his private opinions to the place of supreme authority in the Christian faith.

What they reject as error is only that which they do not understand and cannot glean from their own private readings of their much abridged Bibles and their 16th-century traditions.

That is why there are over 33,000 different Protestant sects, cults, denominations, and isms in the world today.

Any confidence we have in our ability to defeat them in open debate comes from our confidence in Christ and also from experience.
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2003, 12:40:24 AM »

Actually, Keble might have a good idea there: an Anglican forum.

Now that could be very productive.

And I have no intention of bringing up Spong!

The very thought is akin to bringing up one's lunch.  Tongue

 Grin
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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2003, 08:07:57 AM »


What they have in common is the elevation of the individual and his private opinions to the place of supreme authority in the Christian faith.

What they reject as error is only that which they do not understand and cannot glean from their own private readings of their much abridged Bibles and their 16th-century traditions.

That is why there are over 33,000 different Protestant sects, cults, denominations, and isms in the world today.

Any confidence we have in our ability to defeat them in open debate comes from our confidence in Christ and also from experience.


You take lame potshots at them when (you apparently believe) they are not here to defend themselves. After all, the 33,000 number (and it's actually 22,000) includes something on the order of 900 "Orthodox" sects, so apparently having faith in one's own sect's supreme authority is no guarantee of unity! A cynical Muslim would argue, not without some justification, that the fragmentation of Christianity is part of the nature of the religion, and that Orthodoxy participates in it like every other sect.

The world is full of stubborn people who are utterly assured of their ability to defeat all intellectual challengers, because they have Truth on their side. Most of them indeed cannot be defeated, because they fail to concede their most elementary mistakes. It is not a class of people, I think, that we are called to join.
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2003, 08:30:40 AM »

IIRC the 33000 number is from a respectable protestant source. I'd be interested in learning more about those 900 orthodox sects though. Do you have any further info?

Go easy on Linus. He is able to vent steam here in a manner that he is unable to on the other board and the Mods there have been editing his posts pretty thick and fast the last few days.

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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2003, 08:32:20 AM »

You mean a cynical Muslim like you, Abdur (I mean, "Keble")?

The 33,000+ figure comes from Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia, a Protestant publication.

The comments I made were not "potshots" made because there are no Prots here to defend themselves. I have made the same remarks on a well-known Protestant web site (as you well know) and have defended them.

Yes, there are some stubborn characters who actually believe in Christ and feel no need to change religions on a monthly or semi-monthly basis.

To argue that there are "900 Orthodox sects" is fatuous as well as false.
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2003, 08:37:15 AM »

Quote
After all, the 33,000 number (and it's actually 22,000) includes something on the order of 900 "Orthodox" sects, so apparently having faith in one's own sect's supreme authority is no guarantee of unity!

Calling oneself an Orthodox Church does not make it so, there are a plethora of vagante churches out there that do just that.  From the Presbyterian Orthodox Church to the Most Holy Double Sanctified More Greek than You are Really Greek Orthodox Church of the Nazarene that was started by a disaffected laymen last fall.   As was stated elsewhere, the Orthodox Church is simply the Church, one is either in it, or not.  The vagantes are not part of, or splinters, or branches of the Church.

Quote
The world is full of stubborn people who are utterly assured of their ability to defeat all intellectual challengers, because they have Truth on their side. Most of them indeed cannot be defeated, because they fail to concede their most elementary mistakes.

Or, they just modify or delete posts that they can't refute with Scripture, logic, and reason.
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2003, 09:04:06 AM »

BTW, nice April 1st joke. I just noticed I was posting on RomanCatholicism.Net
 Shocked
 Huh
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2003, 10:38:11 AM »

The criterion for who is Orthodox is communion - -ü-+-¦-+-Ç-+-+-ü-é-î. That rules out both the vagante poseurs and the sincere but crazy sects that think they alone are what's left of the Orthodox Church.

Quote
Presbyterian Orthodox Church

They do not and never did pretend to be Eastern Orthodox. And their name is 'Orthodox Presbyterian Church'. They're a hardline Calvinist offshoot of 'regular' Presbyterians (the latter are now the Presbyterian Church, USA) of many decades' standing.

Neither does the Anglican Orthodox Church, actually a group of disaffected, low-church, conservative 'Dixiecrat' (Southern) Episcopalians who left the Episcopal Church in 1963, though they claim episcopacy through their founder's (an ex-Episcopal priest) being consecrated a bishop by some vagante Ukrainian of the 'Holy Autocephalic Ukrainian Orthodox Church' or some such.

I was thinking of doing an April 1st spoof for my site - it was between a Rush Limbaughesque pro-war pose, some liberal mainstream religous pastiche or making up my own vagante church - but you beat me to it. The Pope cartoon is so cute!
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« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2003, 10:51:38 AM »

Thanks for the clarification Serge

I did know that the POC never pretended to be EO and were some sort of hardline offshoot Smiley  I should not have stated that they were a vagante group.  That being said, I'll bet they are included in the 900 "Orthodox" sects claimed above, along with Anglican Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2003, 05:14:15 PM »

If some sort of forum is established, would it be possible to have courteous naming conventions as is the case with "Eastern Orthodox", "Roman Catholic" etc.?  Such as not using "Prots" for example and remembering that there is no such thing as a generic Protestant?

Thank you.

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« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2003, 05:19:26 PM »

I mentioned once before that hardline Calvinism drove me to spend a few years as an agnostic/atheist.

That happened when I left the Southern Baptist Church of my teen years for the - yes, you guessed it - Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

I was attending an Orthodox Presbyterian Church in San Jose, California, when Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, The Westminster Confession of Faith, and the "TULIP" finally drove me to despair and caused me to abandon Christianity.

When I repented and returned to the Christian fold years later, it was as a Lutheran (yes, I realize Luther was almost as bad as Calvin).

God used continued study and some blessed circumstances to finally lead me to His Holy Orthodox Church.

Abdur/Keble commented on "converts who no longer respect the faith that led them to where they are now."

I respect Calvinism they way one who has been delivered from cancer "respects" that disease.

Obviously, I have more respect for Lutheranism; but I view it as the shadow I left just before I finally stepped into the sunlight.

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« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2003, 05:32:36 PM »

I agree with Ebor that we should not be calling people "Prots" on the forum.

Since I'm the Admin, I formally ask you all to not use that term.

Feel free to keep discussing the issue at hand, however.

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« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2003, 05:38:24 PM »

Sorry!

I think I used "Prots" once or twice, but only because I was trying to be brief, not to cause offense (honestly!). I will avoid using it from now on. I really did not realize that it is offensive to anyone.

I agree there are no "generic" Protestants, but I also believe it is highly useful to be able to refer to Protestantism and Protestants.

How else can one talk about the topic?

After all, there are an enormous number of different Protestant sects.

Must we refer to them singly, one at a time?

Protestantism does have certain defining characteristics. Chief among them is the elevation of the individual and his subjective, private viewpoints (particularly regarding the Bible) to the place of supreme doctrinal and practical authority in Christianity.

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« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2003, 05:55:06 PM »

Serge,

Quote
The stricter, catechetical definition of ‘Orthodox’ would narrow this to the Churches recognized by all the other Orthodox Churches as independent (self-headed or autocephalous, usually headed by a patriarch) and with whom they are in communion.

By this criterion, numerous grous which are Orthodox would be labeled as non-Orthodox. The OCA, for example, is not recognized by "all the other Orthodox Churches," being rejected by everyone from the liberal-neo-papal Constantinople to the conservative-traditionalist ROCA. The above quote is an example of a vague/distanced form of neo papal patriarchalism.
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« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2003, 05:59:56 PM »

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By this criterion, numerous grous which are Orthodox would be labeled as non-Orthodox.

Numerous?

Quote
The OCA, for example, is not recognized by "all the other Orthodox Churches," being rejected by everyone from the liberal-neo-papal Constantinople to the conservative-traditionalist ROCA. The above quote is an example of a vague/distanced form of neo papal patriarchalism.

But the patriarchs do recognize the OCA as Orthodox and are in communion with it. It's just that they (except the MP) don't see it as autocephalous but as still the American metropolia of the MP.
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« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2003, 06:33:28 PM »

Linus7:

The SSPX are not your standard Latin Mass guys.  Actually, they are a schismatic wacky sect AKA Protestants with a valid (in the eyes of Rome) Liturgy.

All:

I think a well contained protestant forum might be a good idea.  Remember the Evangelical "Orthodox" Church?  This alone should prove there is an enormous interest in Orthodoxy among Protestants and this forum could have a valuable mission oportunity by such a forum.  That being said be prepared and on your toes for any spillover into other areas.  Some will come here with the idea of converting Orthodox but if you just hang tough and show them real charity and christian faith they will soften and may even convert.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2003, 07:15:49 PM »

 Remember the Evangelical "Orthodox" Church?  

Yeah, but they were Orthodox in name only (believe me, I know).  But for the most part, that's water under the bridge...
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« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2003, 07:20:05 PM »

I think I misunderstood what you were saying on the page, and for that I apologize; however, the fact remains that attempting to establish Orthodoxy soely through communion with existing Patriarchates is not orthodox, but is an error. I can think of only one case in the 2,000 year history of our Church in which something like that was done, and that was only because Saint Emperor Theodosius had to draw clear canonical lines after the mess of the middle of the fourth century as to who exactly was and was not in the Church. I've never read anywhere in the Fathers were all the local Churches "accepting you" (or even some of them accepting you) somehow automatically made one Orthodox.

As far as the other groups, perhaps the term numerous is too strong a word, but a number of truly Orthodox bodies have "questionable" status according to some Churches (ROCOR, The Greek Old Calendarists under Met. Cyprian, and perhaps a few others; and the OCA's position is itself an interesting case of strangeness personified--especially when OCA theologians attack others for their questionable canonical foundations and current official "status" among other Orthodox groups!)
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« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2003, 08:23:58 PM »

Joe -

What does "SSPX" stand for? Some Latin phrase?
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2003, 09:24:40 PM »

I googled and it stands for "Society of Saint Pius X". It was founded by Archbiship Lefebvre.

Ebor
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« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2003, 09:28:19 PM »

I agree there are no "generic" Protestants, but I also believe it is highly useful to be able to refer to Protestantism and Protestants.

How else can one talk about the topic?

After all, there are an enormous number of different Protestant sects.

Must we refer to them singly, one at a time?


Why not, in the interests of courtesy and precision?

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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2003, 09:51:52 PM »

Ebor -

Thanks for the info on SSPX. Interesting.

Regarding referring to each Protestant sect singly:

I am willing to do that when the individual Protestant with whom I am speaking will identify his sect.

Speaking from my experience over at CBBS, that is a rare occurrance. Most of them are reluctant to identify their sect, prefering to refer to themselves as "Christians."

It usually does not take too long to identify in broad terms the general category of Protestantism to which they adhere, but it is often a process of trial and error.

Another problem with treating each Protestant sect singly is that it seems to elevate that sect to a level of parity with the Orthodox Church: not an impression I want to give.

For me it is important that Protestants understand the considerable gap between their traditions, which do not have roots that extend beyond the 16th century, and the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

It is also difficult to deal with each Protestant sect singly when there are so darned many of them!  Shocked

Besides that, many Fundamentalist and Evangelical Protestants are chronic church-hoppers; a particular sect is of far less importance to them than their own ever-changing, private take on the Bible.

Whenever the pastor's understanding of the Bible clashes with their own, these believers go down the road to the next "independent assembly," or better yet, rent a building and start one of their own.

Voila - a new sect is born!


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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2003, 09:57:51 PM »


Protestantism does have certain defining characteristics. Chief among them is the elevation of the individual and his subjective, private viewpoints (particularly regarding the Bible) to the place of supreme doctrinal and practical authority in Christianity.



This could be a broad generalization that is not always applicable.  The Amish do not elevate the individual in that way, for example.  Anyone who is a member of an Amish church (i.e. an adult who has formally joined) who goes against the church's literal interpretations of scripture and the "Ordnung" is subject to "shunning".

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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2003, 10:01:37 PM »

Ebor -

True, but how likely are Amish to be participating in an internet web site like this one?

Of course, there are sooooo many Protestant sects one is likely to find almost anything.

But in general the "Two Pillars of the Reformation," Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, will be held in common by most of them.
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« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2003, 08:04:20 AM »

Ebor -

True, but how likely are Amish to be participating in an internet web site like this one?

Of course, there are sooooo many Protestant sects one is likely to find almost anything.

But in general the "Two Pillars of the Reformation," Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, will be held in common by most of them.

Well, they do not in general even agree on what Sola Scriptura means-- a (well-informed) Anglican or Methodist is likely to give you a different answer on this than a fundamentalist. (Of course, they could then argue as whether the Anglican is Protestant in the first place.)

To get back on the topic: it seems to me to be a waste of time to create a forum whose purpose would be to give a place to put vague denuciations of whatever someone wants to claim that Protestants in general believe. If Protestants want to come to such a place, it would seem charitable to confront them as persons and not demand that they defend the practices of groups of which they are not members.

On another subject-- I have taken a little time to hunt down a copy of Barrett and have some analysis of the numbers. I'm going to post it separately over in the free-for-all since it is far off-topic here.
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« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2003, 08:17:43 AM »

Is it possible that someone somewhere has the relevant bits of Barretts online? I have no access to such books over here, though our library where I work has HUGE resources for biblical Greek Grin.

I'd appreciate whatever you can find out Keble.

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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2003, 09:18:10 AM »

Barrett is not on-line (or shouldn't be). The most recent edition is 2001, and the set costs about $270 US. It's two volumes, large format, lots of fine print-- A massive doorstop only slightly less massive than a pulpit bible, and with four times as many words. At least.

I've seen some on-line articles on it which quoted certain numbers. One in particular referred to Lutheran numbers which immediately rang alarm bells.

Unfortunately my first post on the subject timed out....
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« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2003, 04:06:00 PM »

Ebor -

True, but how likely are Amish to be participating in an internet web site like this one?

Of course, there are sooooo many Protestant sects one is likely to find almost anything.

But in general the "Two Pillars of the Reformation," Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, will be held in common by most of them.

Whether there are Amish who would come here, I know not, though using modern technology is not forbidden until a person has joined the Amish church, usually in young adulthood.  But I do know that there are Mennonites and Hutterites on-line, so it would be possible for one or some to come here. None of us, except possibly the moderators know everyone who may be viewing these pages.  Even if none of a particular church or group should ever see this forum, the truth about their beliefs or any other groups doctrines should be upheld and not broad generalizations/one-idea-fits-all brush-offs.  As I hope all of us would want the truth about our churches and beliefs written of by others.

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« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2003, 05:44:26 PM »

I am willing to debate Protestants as individuals and with the appropriate courtesy and kindness.

I have a fair amount of experience in doing so and never resorted to the sorts of ad hominem attacks, name-calling, reviling, and mockery that many of them used against me, against other Orthodox and Roman Catholic posters, and against the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches.

Just the same, I think insisting that there are no beliefs common to most Protestants is mere quibbling.

The typical Evangelical Protestant one will encounter is going to be a believer in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Most of them will believe in the "invisible church" ecclesiology, that the sacraments are mere symbolic ordinances, and that one is saved forever without possibility of condemnation in a moment of instantaneous conversion.

The rare exceptions will provide a refreshing change of pace.

If we encounter any Amish or Hutterites, I will be surprised, but I've been surprised before.





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« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2003, 01:36:44 AM »

Linus,

Quote
The typical Evangelical Protestant one will encounter is going to be a believer in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

I'm with you so far....

Quote
Most of them will believe in the "invisible church" ecclesiology, that the sacraments are mere symbolic ordinances, and that one is saved forever without possibility of condemnation in a moment of instantaneous conversion.

I would not agree with you here.  While most subscribe to "invisible church" ecclesiology the last two statements are only found among Baptist/Reformed churches.

Lutherans take the sacraments of baptism(remember they baptise infants as well) and the eucharist as salvific and not mere ordinances.  There are also a few Lutheran churches that practice confession.  

I believe that Anglicans can vary quite a bit in their view of the sacraments, but there are many who view them as salvific and no Anglican is an adherant of eternal security.  

Even Methodists, Wesleyans, Mennonites, and trinitarian-Charismatics disregard eternal security as well as Arminian-influenced Baptists.  While the average poster may fall into the Baptist/Reformed/Nondenom group that fits your description, I think it is uncharitable to lump all protestants into this group.  

This is not to say that I think we should be involved in holding-hands ecumenism and sharing the chalice; there are significant differences and no Protestant would be considered a member of the Church as Orthodoxy claims the Church to be.  I don't think we will see within our great-grandchildren's lifetimes a reconciliation between any protestant group and the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church but we might see many people and entire parishes rejoin the ancient wellspring of Christianity.
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« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2003, 02:30:59 PM »

Amator Dei -

Notice that I issued the qualifier "most" when I referred to what Protestants believe.

As a former Lutheran, and as a person who has at one time or another attended just about every major brand of Protestant church, I am familiar with the beliefs of those who differ from those I described.

I still believe, based on my experience, that most of the Protestants one will encounter on debate fora will be Baptist types who believe the things I described.

There will be exceptions, of course, but they will be a refreshing change of pace.
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« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2003, 09:49:23 PM »

Here's a post I made some time back that indicates something of my perspective on Protestants:

Re:For There Must Also be Heresies Among You
-½ Reply #9 on: Wed, February 05, 2003, 07:23:20 PM -+    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess we are all in agreement here thus far! That's a good thing, since we're all Orthodox Christians!

I have another question for everyone:

What about those Protestants who are "more orthodox" than the rest?

I am thinking specifically of very conservative Anglicans who are trying to find and preserve the Apostolic Tradition; you know, the kind of guys who usually wind up with us in the long run.

And what of the Roman Catholics?

I know they are off on many things, but I would hardly put them in the same class with Baptists.

How far do we go with these folks?

No one wants to alienate them, but we don't want them to think they're totally okay, either.

I hate to keep harping on my debating experiences at www.christianbbs.com , but I have often found certain types of Protestants, as well as Roman Catholics, who make common cause with me on issues like the sacraments, Sola Scriptura, veneration of the saints, etc.

It is difficult to see these people in the same light as the "Fundie fringe."

They can very easily be brought into the Orthodox Church because they seem to already have one foot in the door.

What about them?


See - I'm not as doctrinaire as some of you think I am, nor do I think all Protestants should be lumped together into one category.

Am I a sensitive guy, or what?  Shocked
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« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2003, 12:47:46 AM »

Friends,

For right now we have decided not to have the Orthodox-Protestant discussion area.  If enough Protestants start joining the board and there is a need, we will bring the issue back up.

Sincerely in Christ,

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« Reply #55 on: June 01, 2003, 02:40:09 AM »

Hello all!

I just recently stumbled (today, actually) across this site and am reading through some of the threads.  Up front, I will say that I'm a confessional Lutheran but was once an Orthodox inquirer for about 9 months, which was spurred primarily by the fact that my wife is Orthodox and I was doing my part to promote familial unity.  So far, I haven't read anything in this board that I would deem offensive.  I find it interesting that some in this thread have described unpleasant experiences in other Protestant boards.  Let me just say that if I'm participating in any Protestant discussion group and non-Prot guests are treated rudely, I will be the first to speak against it.  Before my inquirer days, I was always a vigorous defender of the Orthodox Church when discussing theology with Protestants.  Having said that, I have to tell you that I've received discourteous treatment from Orthodox, online and in person, by simply bringing up anything that they consider "off limits" or when trying to correct misinformation.  For example, at times I found my messages being censored and snipped when participating in the orthodox converts group over at Yahoo, though there was nothing rude in my posts nor anything in my posts that I could determine broke any rules.  Others emailed me privately describing similar experiences.  I don't think it's realistic to promote any converts forum without expecting to face sceptical and challenging inquirers.  That's the nature of inviting "thinking" converts.  I've been to catechism sessions in Lutheran and Cathoic parishes and never once witnessed the hostility to open inquiries that I've experienced in Orthodoxy.

I don't rule out one day returning to my Orthodox inquiring, but the flakiness, let alone the haughtiness, of the crowd I came into contact with remains firmly in my memory.  The complimentary "your humble Billy Bob sinner" epithet gets ridiculous when the guy treats others in anything but a humble manner.  What's fascinating is that the Orthodox I've encountered don't seem to care how they come off to others.  It's interesting that Orthodox have received similar treatment from Prots, because I have generally attributed the crude treatment I received from them to the fact that so many of them were former fundamentalist Prots or neo-pagans who came over with baggage, sometimes with outright hatred for their former denominations.

Anyway, thats my $.02.  I'm not interested in getting into theological or apologetic debates because I've been through that dog and pony show enough times to know that it gets nowhere in solving complex disputes that have gone unsettled for hundreds of years.  I'm firmly convinced that whatever faith or denomination a person lands in, it has little to do with a thoroughly reasoned out investigation and more to do with deeper psychological processes and past experiences, usually the negative ones.  The reasoned out reasons always come after the person already has had an emotional turning.

All the best.
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« Reply #56 on: June 01, 2003, 04:08:41 PM »

Emphases added by me.

Quote
Having said that, I have to tell you that I've received discourteous treatment from Orthodox, online and in person, by simply bringing up anything that they consider "off limits" or when trying to correct misinformation.  For example, at times I found my messages being censored and snipped when participating in the orthodox converts group over at Yahoo, though there was nothing rude in my posts nor anything in my posts that I could determine broke any rules.  Others emailed me privately describing similar experiences.  I don't think it's realistic to promote any converts forum without expecting to face sceptical and challenging inquirers.  That's the nature of inviting "thinking" converts.  I've been to catechism sessions in Lutheran and Cathoic parishes and never once witnessed the hostility to open inquiries that I've experienced in Orthodoxy.

Mirrors some of my experience online - not in person.

Quote
I don't rule out one day returning to my Orthodox inquiring, but the flakiness, let alone the haughtiness, of the crowd I came into contact with remains firmly in my memory.  The complimentary "your humble Billy Bob sinner" epithet gets ridiculous when the guy treats others in anything but a humble manner.  What's fascinating is that the Orthodox I've encountered don't seem to care how they come off to others.  It's interesting that Orthodox have received similar treatment from Prots, because I have generally attributed the crude treatment I received from them to the fact that so many of them were former fundamentalist Prots or neo-pagans who came over with baggage, sometimes with outright hatred for their former denominations.


Well put. You aren't the first person to say those things about Eastern Orthodox forums online and probably won't be the last.

Quote
Anyway, thats my $.02.  I'm not interested in getting into theological or apologetic debates because I've been through that dog and pony show enough times to know that it gets nowhere in solving complex disputes that have gone unsettled for hundreds of years.  I'm firmly convinced that whatever faith or denomination a person lands in, it has little to do with a thoroughly reasoned out investigation and more to do with deeper psychological processes and past experiences, usually the negative ones.  The reasoned out reasons always come after the person already has had an emotional turning.

Again, well put and probably true of most people.
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« Reply #57 on: June 01, 2003, 05:19:23 PM »

That's why I like our forum here.  People are generally very nice.  There are hot debates and sometimes namecalling but nowhere near like on Orthodox Forum on yahoo groups or the "indiana list."

Btw I was raised a Lutheran.

In Christ,

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« Reply #58 on: June 01, 2003, 09:03:41 PM »

Quote
Anyway, thats my $.02.  I'm not interested in getting into theological or apologetic debates because I've been through that dog and pony show enough times to know that it gets nowhere in solving complex disputes that have gone unsettled for hundreds of years.  I'm firmly convinced that whatever faith or denomination a person lands in, it has little to do with a thoroughly reasoned out investigation and more to do with deeper psychological processes and past experiences, usually the negative ones.  The reasoned out reasons always come after the person already has had an emotional turning.

I agree with that to a point. Of course there are psychological processes and past experiences involved in conversion, and there is the Holy Spirit, who goes where He will and affects each one differently.

But for many of us conversion to Orthodoxy came in the face of lots of familial, emotional, and psychological reasons not to convert and had practically nothing to do with bad experiences with the former denomination.

I, for one, was a Lutheran and the descendant of Lutherans. In fact, my fifth great grandfather and grandmother were married by Rev. Heinrich Melchior Muehlenberg in Trinity Lutheran Church in downtown Lancaster, PA, in 1781. If you don't think that fact created an emotional and psychological bond for me, well, you're much mistaken.

I never had a bad experience with the Lutheran Church (I attended both the LCMS and the ELCA), in fact, just the opposite.

When I was a teenager I was involved in the Southern Baptist Church, in Campus Crusade for Christ, and in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

I never had any bad experiences with any of those organizations either.

I became Orthodox because I became convinced that Orthodoxy is the truth. I will not deny that processes other than reason were involved; of course they were.

But it also cost me something to become Orthodox, which I guess is one of the reasons why I treasure the Church so much.

She is the Pearl of Great Price: not cheaply had . . . and worth it!
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« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2003, 06:11:32 PM »

Dear in Christ Anastasie

   If you  are still wondering which way a Protestant-Odox forum should go, perhaps the following will give you an idea; I posted mention of this in the wrong place, as (title) Nikolai has just pointed out to me.

"Reply to Paul Negrut's Protestant critique of Orthodoxy"

http://www.orlapubs.com/AR/R272.html

Christ reigns!

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