OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 01, 2014, 08:55:11 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Western Rite  (Read 3272 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
wayfarer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 15


« on: April 05, 2006, 10:59:19 AM »

Ok another post from the new guy.

Though I am currently an Anglican, Western Rite liturgy doesn't necessarily appeal to me.

I have often wondered however, about a slightly different approach in which Eastern liturgy is placed in a western ethos  - building construction, vestments, and chants would be that which westerners are accustomed to but the faith and practice would be purely that found in Orthodox Churches.

Wayfarer

Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,408


« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2006, 11:08:34 AM »

Not gonna happen.  While you might think it would be an interesting idea, it would be like just making up your own tradition by deliberately hybridizing two different Traditions.

In a way though, this happen defacto a lot in the USA since many Orthodox churches end up buying existing Protestant (or maybe Catholic) buildings and then "converting"/remodeling the church.
Logged
bergschlawiner
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 235

Sarisan


« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2006, 12:01:24 PM »

 Huh
I have often wondered however, about a slightly different approach in which Eastern liturgy is placed in a western ethos  - building construction, vestments, and chants would be that which westerners are accustomed to but the faith and practice would be purely that found in Orthodox Churches.
This is what some call "latinization" and take a look at the Maronites for example.   Huh
Logged
The Wolf
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 95


« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2006, 05:06:39 PM »

Ok another post from the new guy.

Though I am currently an Anglican, Western Rite liturgy doesn't necessarily appeal to me.

I have often wondered however, about a slightly different approach in which Eastern liturgy is placed in a western ethos  - building construction, vestments, and chants would be that which westerners are accustomed to but the faith and practice would be purely that found in Orthodox Churches.

Wayfarer



It sounds like an interesting idea. The more smells and bells the better as far as I am concerned.
Logged

Hamlet: 2. 2.Use every man after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping?

Euripides: Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2006, 05:26:32 PM »

Quote
I have often wondered however, about a slightly different approach in which Eastern liturgy is placed in a western ethos  - building construction, vestments, and chants would be that which westerners are accustomed to but the faith and practice would be purely that found in Orthodox Churches.

But the faith and practice of those who use the WR *are* found in Orthodox churches. There's nothing un-Orthodox about the WR. What you're proposing would be a liturgical monstrosity.
Logged
greggyt
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Posts: 11


« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2006, 07:07:10 PM »

Quote from: Elisha
In a way though, this happen defacto a lot in the USA since many Orthodox churches end up buying existing Protestant (or maybe Catholic) buildings and then "converting"/remodeling the church.

LOL  This is kind of the situation of my church, it smells like an orthodox church, it feels like an Orthodox church, and it sounds like an Orthodox church, it is an Orthodox Church but it looks like a Methodist Church with Orthodox Ornamentation (We bought the building from a Methodost church and hope to one day build an Orthodox Temple)

The Outside:


The inside of the church (this picture doesn't show much but the interior of the church has those wrought iron lamps that you sometimes see in Anglican churches, and that stained galss that is just basically a whole bunch of diamond shaped pieces of colored glass )
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,408


« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2006, 07:40:13 PM »

LOL  This is kind of the situation of my church, it smells like an orthodox church, it feels like an Orthodox church, and it sounds like an Orthodox church, it is an Orthodox Church but it looks like a Methodist Church with Orthodox Ornamentation (We bought the building from a Methodost church and hope to one day build an Orthodox Temple)

The Outside:


The inside of the church (this picture doesn't show much but the interior of the church has those wrought iron lamps that you sometimes see in Anglican churches, and that stained galss that is just basically a whole bunch of diamond shaped pieces of colored glass )


That's probably one of the better converted buildings I've seen...can compete with even small original Orthodox buildings!
Logged
wayfarer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 15


« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2006, 10:31:58 PM »

But the faith and practice of those who use the WR *are* found in Orthodox churches. There's nothing un-Orthodox about the WR. What you're proposing would be a liturgical monstrosity.

I am not denying that WRO is fully Orthodox at all. My questions was pure speculation and idle chatter. If there were a WR parish in my area I might well have ended up there rather than with the Anglicans.

I just find it interesting that the reintigration of westerners took one path over the other. It seems to me that giving EO liturgics a western ethos would have been more conservative than the modified Gregorian or BCP liturgies path taken by WRO.

Wayfarer
Logged
Thomas
Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,765



« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2006, 11:52:54 PM »

The Western Rite in the USA was started under the direction of St Tikon of holy memory who understood that for many Anglicans/Episcopalians there was a draw of the Anglican manner of worship that was as cultural to them as the liturgy of the East.  It may not have been as old but within it could be found the foundations  of true worship written initially in the Teachings of the Apostles, one of the earliest texts describing the Apostolic Worship of the Church. ÂÂ

St. Tikon realized that many of these people would have an easier access to Orthodox faith if they could enter in their cultural lmilieu the Anglican Liturgy.  He strove to purge from it the purely protestant  models and replace them with Orthodox models that would be acceptable to Orthodox Christians and help them to welcome the WR orthodox bretheren.

Later as the Antiochian's  began to open the WR, they realized that many coming in may be Roman Catholics who would rather a more Roman Catholic worship liturgy and thus the Antiochian western Rite has  The Liturgy of St Tikon and another Liturgy based upon European Roman Catholic Liturgical tradition.

Thomas
« Last Edit: April 07, 2006, 04:43:40 PM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 11:59:02 PM »

To tell the truth, I don't think that would work well, the rites of the Eastern church(es) but presented in a Western manner.

So the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom but with gregorian chant, western style vestments, open altar (or rood screen), altar rails etc...the Eastern liturgies developed a certain way, and also the Western Rites developed in their own manner. For example, the Chrysostom liturgy has prayers and chants surrounding a very greco-slavic mindset and geography. An example would be "Ti Ipermaho" - To You the Champion sung in the Heretismoi/ Salutations to the Theotokos. It originated from a miracle celebrating the saving of Constantinople. It wouldn't really be appropriate to sing this song in Gregorian chant for example.

Remember also, Constantinople and Mt. Athos both had Western Rite monasteries and churches functioning fully during the years preceding the split...and quite some years after, when the split was finalized. *(Old Rome too had Eastern Rite churches/monasteries).
Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2006, 03:20:05 PM »

I have mixed feelings about the "Western Rite" as it now stands, though in principle the rehabilitation of historically "western forms" of Christianity is not in and of itself objectionable.

If you read the writings of important 19th century Western-Rite advocates like Dr.John Overbeck (a convert to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism), it becomes pretty clear that what they were advocating was an attempt to (as close as possible) revive the rituals of the pre-schism Latin Church.   Though there were certainly big supporters of this idea in the Russian Church, very little actually ever came of it.  For example, many Western-Riters speak of the "Liturgy of St.Tikhon", which is basically a "corrected" version of the Anglican liturgy of the eucharist.  A few things are ommitted, a few other things added (namely, an explicit epiklesis in it's anaphora), and that is pretty much all that it is.  Yet what is very clear is that this proposed text and others like it (like a similarly revised from of the Tridentine Mass of Roman Catholicism) were understood by the likes of St.Tikhon and Overbeck to be provisional - for the actual revival of something continuous with pre-schism Western Orthodoxy would require something much more extensive and carefully considered.

Thus insofar as the modern Western-Rite would be considered a "work in progress", it may have some promise.

My big concern at this point though, is that there appear to be supporters within the Western-Rite movement, who have abandoned the mindset of the likes of St.Tikhon or Dr.Overbeck, and basically see the Western-Rite (though they'd never put it this way) as a kind of "corrective reverse-Uniatism"; get rid of the glaring, obvious problems in later western liturgics, but ignore the fact that most of the liturgical developments subsequent to Rome's self-isolation from Orthodox Christendom are to varying degrees founded upon either their loss of the "Orthodox mindset" or as reactions to controversies which simply do not pose a challenge to the holistic faith/praxis maintained by "the East" (which is the genuine, continuing part of the Church of Christ.)

As for "westernizing" Orthodox missions in the west, in the legitimate sense this kind of inculturation has already began (though we need more of it!)  For example, there is nothing wrong with converting all liturgical services into careful vernacular, emphasizing the cult of Orthodox Saints native to western soil (whether from before the schism, or more modern Saints who lived in the west like Sts.Herman, Tikhon, John of San Francisco, etc.)  There is also no reason why the same East-Roman/"Byzantine" services which became inculturated amongst the various Slavic peoples, could not do the same here, even to the point (with time) of giving birth to different usages and disciplines (which one observes in the rest of the normative Orthodox world.)  The Orthodox Church is "traditional" - but genuine tradition has never been static, not in the time of the ancient Fathers (who made some very striking revisions of the liturgics they'd received when they felt it would be pastorally advantageous), nor in subsequent eras.
Logged
kijabeboy03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 780

"The glory of God is in man fully alive."


« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 12:44:37 PM »

If I may weigh in, I used to think it'd be cool to hear the services set to Gregoriant chant music and tones (if they have them?), but then I went to Coptic and Western/Roman Orthodox services and realized that the reason Roman Rite services look shorter on paper is because they take a while to go through using the Gregorian music and traditional reading styles, whereas in most Byzantine Rite churches I've been to the clergy go through their parts at a decent clip and likewise the choir (unless they're trying to be particularly grand, lol). It'd still be interesting to hear, but it'd take way too long to endure every Sunday :-).
Logged

"This is the Apostolic Faith, the Orthodox Faith, and the Faith of the Fathers. Having this wonderful treasure, let us preserve it, let us keep it, and let us also use it in such a way that this treasure becomes the victory of Christ in us and in His Church." ~ St. Severus of Antioch ~
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,220



« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 02:20:51 PM »

If I may weigh in, I used to think it'd be cool to hear the services set to Gregoriant chant music and tones (if they have them?), but then I went to Coptic and Western/Roman Orthodox services and realized that the reason Roman Rite services look shorter on paper is because they take a while to go through using the Gregorian music and traditional reading styles, whereas in most Byzantine Rite churches I've been to the clergy go through their parts at a decent clip and likewise the choir (unless they're trying to be particularly grand, lol). It'd still be interesting to hear, but it'd take way too long to endure every Sunday :-).
Well if you look at many of the early Western Orthodox churches, cathedrals and basilicas, they look very, very similar to our modern Eastern Orthodox churches. Medieval England and France (perhaps Germany, too?) had what resembles our present-day iconostas.

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
simplygermain
beer-bellied tellitubby
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA - Northwest, Baby!
Posts: 771


Zechariah 11:7


WWW
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 02:40:49 PM »

I have mixed feelings about the "Western Rite" as it now stands, though in principle the rehabilitation of historically "western forms" of Christianity is not in and of itself objectionable.

If you read the writings of important 19th century Western-Rite advocates like Dr.John Overbeck (a convert to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism), it becomes pretty clear that what they were advocating was an attempt to (as close as possible) revive the rituals of the pre-schism Latin Church.   Though there were certainly big supporters of this idea in the Russian Church, very little actually ever came of it.  For example, many Western-Riters speak of the "Liturgy of St.Tikhon", which is basically a "corrected" version of the Anglican liturgy of the eucharist.  A few things are ommitted, a few other things added (namely, an explicit epiklesis in it's anaphora), and that is pretty much all that it is.  Yet what is very clear is that this proposed text and others like it (like a similarly revised from of the Tridentine Mass of Roman Catholicism) were understood by the likes of St.Tikhon and Overbeck to be provisional - for the actual revival of something continuous with pre-schism Western Orthodoxy would require something much more extensive and carefully considered.

Thus insofar as the modern Western-Rite would be considered a "work in progress", it may have some promise.

My big concern at this point though, is that there appear to be supporters within the Western-Rite movement, who have abandoned the mindset of the likes of St.Tikhon or Dr.Overbeck, and basically see the Western-Rite (though they'd never put it this way) as a kind of "corrective reverse-Uniatism"; get rid of the glaring, obvious problems in later western liturgics, but ignore the fact that most of the liturgical developments subsequent to Rome's self-isolation from Orthodox Christendom are to varying degrees founded upon either their loss of the "Orthodox mindset" or as reactions to controversies which simply do not pose a challenge to the holistic faith/praxis maintained by "the East" (which is the genuine, continuing part of the Church of Christ.)

As for "westernizing" Orthodox missions in the west, in the legitimate sense this kind of inculturation has already began (though we need more of it!)  For example, there is nothing wrong with converting all liturgical services into careful vernacular, emphasizing the cult of Orthodox Saints native to western soil (whether from before the schism, or more modern Saints who lived in the west like Sts.Herman, Tikhon, John of San Francisco, etc.)  There is also no reason why the same East-Roman/"Byzantine" services which became inculturated amongst the various Slavic peoples, could not do the same here, even to the point (with time) of giving birth to different usages and disciplines (which one observes in the rest of the normative Orthodox world.)  The Orthodox Church is "traditional" - but genuine tradition has never been static, not in the time of the ancient Fathers (who made some very striking revisions of the liturgics they'd received when they felt it would be pastorally advantageous), nor in subsequent eras.

When I hear about this, I am grateful for my first experience with the Western Rite... St. Germanus' Liturgy of Paris (St. John Maximovitch's work).
Logged

I believe, help Thou my unbelief!! - St. John of Krondstadt

http://Http://hairshirtagenda.blogspot.com

 Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.071 seconds with 41 queries.