That made me chuckle. Pedro, my good man, if anyone has wanted to find a way to accept WR ways it has been me.
But I had the fortune, good or bad, to come to Orthodoxy within a conservative OCA parish which does not approve of WR, so I've been influenced by that, understandably.
Mmm...yes. Unfortunate also that he (your priest) is so negative towards his brother priest in the same town...
When I look at WR stuff on the web, and I have gotten to know a WR priest a little bit here in town, it just seems like their main issue is to be Western and not Eastern, rather than just being Orthodox Christians.
Well, I think this mindset needs a little tweaking...there is no "just being Orthodox Christians" for them without being occupied w/preserving their western heritage, just as Eastern Rite-ers are occupied w/preserving their eastern heritage as a part of their being Orthodox
. They are called to be an Orthodox parish in the Western Rite, so this assumes they're going to be concerned about their life and history as a western parish, so yeah, you're going to notice a contrast where the parishioners emphasize lots of things that aren’t even in your OCA parish’s world. WRO have sort of a double task...to be Orthodox (which they are) while
going through the necessary "identity shift" period of wading through the wheat and the chaff of their former Catholicism/Anglicanism.
AlsoÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦Where are you that there's a WR parish in your town? I frequent (well, “frequent” is a generous word as of late) St. Peter’s in Ft. Worth.
I have become fully convinced that instruments are best left out of church. Actually, I think choirs are best left out of church, too, but that's tough in Orthodoxy these days. I think all church music should be monophonic, too. This isn't really a beef with WR except that I think nearly all WR parishes have organs, and pews too, which I also think should be gone.
Well, I'm with you on no instruments, but history's not uniform on the subject, so we'll just have to be flexible. Gotta disagree about no choirs, though; the parishes where chanting has been perfected are RARE...
I've been informed that there are little problems still with the WR liturgies, things like "as it was in the beginning" or some particular wording in the consecration that smacks of "Real Presence" rather than actually mystical transformation. I don't know, I'm not a scholar, I'm just going by my spiritual directors.
As it was in the beginning is the western equivalent to "now and ever..." that we say. It's been in use for over fifteen hundred years, so that’s good ‘n’ Orthodox. UmmÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦here’s the text from the consecration of the gifts from the Rite of St. Tikhon, used in the formerly-Anglican parishes of the WR:
The Prayer of Consecration
The People kneel.
All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that Thou of thy tender mercy, didst give Thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who (by his own oblation of himself once offered) made a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.
The bell rings once.
For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread, and when he had given thanks to thee, he brake it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take, eat, THIS IS MY BODY, WHICH IS GIVEN FOR YOU. Do this in remembrance of me.” +
The bell rings thrice for the elevation of the Host.
Likewise, after supper, he took the cup; and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink ye all of this; for THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, WHICH IS SHED FOR YOU AND FOR MANY, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. Do this as oft as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me.” +
The bell rings thrice for the elevation of the Chalice.
Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ, we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension; rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same.
And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us; and of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to send down thy Holy Spirit upon these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine, that they may be + changed into the Body and Blood of thy most dearly beloved Son.
Grant that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood.
And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of his passion. And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be + filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him. Be mindful also, O Lord, of thy servants who are gone before us with the sign of faith, and who rest in the sleep of peace. (Here the departed are commemorated.) To them, O Lord, and to all who rest in Christ grant we pray thee a place of refreshment, light and peace. To us sinners also, thy servants, confiding in the multitude of thy mercies, grant some lot and partnership with thy holy Apostles and Martyrs: Blaise, Vincent, Raphael, John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, Marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucia, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia, and with all thy Saints, into whose company we pray thee of thy mercy to admit us. And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offenses, through Jesus Christ our Lord; By whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honor and glory be unto thee, O + Father Almighty, world without end. Amen.
You can see the whole mass here
, at St. Peter’s site, if you click on “The Mass” in the sidebar, but I don’t find anything an eastern Christian would have a problem with hereÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦
If the Faith and the Liturgy are so intimately connected as I have been led to believe, then a different Liturgy implies subtle differences in the faith. How can we all have the same Faith yet worship in such different manners? There seems to be such a different spirit between ER & WR.
This is a common question that I hear a lot. Indeed, if lex orandi est lex credendi
, would it not therefore mean that, in order to ensure one Faith, we must insist on one liturgical tradition? Not necessarily, as the Byzantine Rite (or rather, those practicing it) have spawned many a heresy (with Rome and her western liturgical traditions, I might add, serving as the bulwark of Orthodoxy during those times). What is more, is that, when the Church gathered in Ecumenical Councils, we were indeed of one mind regarding Christology, Trinitarian belief, the CreedÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦in other words, all things needful for being within the One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic ChurchÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦all the while worshipping in radically
different traditionsÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦Alexandria, Britain, Gaul (France), Spain, Italy, Antioch, Jerusalem, Constantinople, IndiaÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦Every one of these traditions was quite distinct, yet what brought about schism was not this liturgical diversity, but rather a change in confession or belief
by individual churches.
My trouble is, not to mention the fact that my parents are entirely pro-WR and very turned off by East good, West bad, since I am such a new OC I am one of those "weaker brethren" which are greatly affected by what this or that person says is right or wrong.
Well, I have to say, “East good; West bad” seems to be, for the most part, the only reason I’ve been givenÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦by anyone
who professes distaste for the WRÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦for not having it. If what I wrote above re: liturgical diversity is true (and I think it’s beyond dispute that it is), then we have no excuse and no precedent for not
having other rites in our Church that our bishops have approved (and that last part is important!).
I came to the conclusion that it was serving merely to distract me from working on my salvation, so I have tried to let go and just give my priest my allegiance.
Smart man. Bloom where you’re planted, and don’t look around at other people. As they say in Spanish, “Haz bien, y no mires a quiÃƒÆ’Ã†â€™Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â©n.”
The article Lux Occidentalis
is the best article out there, imo, that thoroughly and scholarly answers detractors’ claims re: the supposedly “unworthy pedigree” or “mish-mash” quality of the liturgies of the WR. I’ve not heard of any rebuttal to its claims whatsoever; I think it makes the case clear that these liturgies have a rightful place in the Church. I’m sorry that your priest is so antagonistic towards them; there’s really no reason to be. The WR isn’t wrong; it’s just different and unfamiliar right now, and some folks aren’t able to bend enough just yet to accept these brethren as fully OrthodoxÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦but the WR is under legit bishops, their worship is Orthodox (as that article will show), so their Eucharist is our Eucharist, and they are
the Church, just as we are.
And with that, I bow out ‘till after PaschaÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦which, I know, I said I was gonna do at the beginning of Lent. I just wanted to give an answer to this. Forgive me if I’ve caused anyone to wonder; forgive me also for breaking my fast.