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Author Topic: Islam: Hate enshrined  (Read 2689 times) Average Rating: 0
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montalban
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« on: April 01, 2006, 07:16:57 AM »

Islam has hatered of others enshrined into it.

Jews are like donkeys:
62: 5 The likeness of those who were entrusted with the Taurat (Torah), but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is as the likeness of a donkey who carries huge burdens of books (but understands nothing from them). How bad is the example (or the likeness) of people who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah. And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers, etc.).


Don't take others as friends:

 Surah  Al-'Imran
Ayah [118]      
  O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.  




It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=69876&dgn=4



Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=59879&dgn=4





Women are a curse:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:

Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.'

http://www.zawaj.com/articles/sahihbukhari.html

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, "If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse."

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

Allah's Apostle said, "If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house."

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:

Narrated Usama bin Zaid:

The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

(Ibid)

 


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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2006, 11:00:46 PM »

I take it you've never read the canons about things like goings to Jewish doctors... or any of the Church Fathers for that matter. Wink
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2006, 12:43:36 AM »

I take it you've never read the canons about things like goings to Jewish doctors... or any of the Church Fathers for that matter
I take it you don't argue against the Islamic texts above, as such but simply are content to suggest that somewhere else is some texts that in some way might be similar to the above, but for Christians.

Strong argument so far! Roll Eyes

Show me
a) the texts
b) how they relate to Christian thought today (given that the Islamic texts above are - in the case of the Koran, believe to be the unerring word of their god, whereas Church Fathers don't preach with infallibility)
and
c) if these at all negate the fact that Islam has the texts above (else what is your point?)

I look forward for you actually constructing an argument, rather than resting on innuendo. Huh
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2006, 04:17:40 AM »

Quote
Jews are like donkeys:
62: 5 The likeness of those who were entrusted with the Taurat (Torah), but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is as the likeness of a donkey who carries huge burdens of books (but understands nothing from them). How bad is the example (or the likeness) of people who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah. And Allah guides not the people who are Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers, etc.).

Interestingly, the OT itself likens the mental capacity of the Jews to the mental capacity of a donkey. When the Coptic Patriarch of the 10th century was called upon to debate the Jewish leader in Egypt at the time, in front of the Muslim Caliph, the Coptic Patriarch made a remark to the Caliph implying that he couldn't debate a Jew because Jews are generally ignorant people. He said this tactfully, knowing that the Jew would make a big scene, and accuse him of being offensive and insulting. After the Jewish leader had his cry, the Coptic Patriarch satirically asked whether the Jewish leader was even well-read in his own book, and quoted from the book of Isaiah the verse in question, declaring "Behold! Isaiah, the great Prophet of the Jews says these things concerning you!". At this point the Caliph was rolling on the floor laughing, and he asked the Jewish leader whether this was in fact true. The Jewish leader couldn't deny it, so he ended up walking away in shame. The story only gets more interesting, but it's irrelevant to the point i'm making, so i'll stop it at that.

I think the story accounting for the transformation of the Jews into pigs and monkeys is a better example to use, since it involves an actual event that they believe took place.
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2006, 06:14:56 AM »

Interestingly, the OT itself likens the mental capacity of the Jews to the mental capacity of a donkey.
I think there's a difference between Jews calling themselves something and others calling themselves the same thing... if that's what happened, as I'd like to see a reference
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2006, 08:47:29 AM »

I think there's a difference between Jews calling themselves something and others calling themselves the same thing...

Well, it's not really a matter of the Jews likening their own mental capacity to that of a donkey, but rather God Himself making the implicit comparison.

So in this instance, the only real difference between the relevant Biblical verse and the relevant Qur'anic verse, is that the former was uttered by the One true God, whereas the latter was uttered by an imposter. By virtue of the latter being uttered by an imposter, we can conclude that such utterance was motivated by a personal and discriminatory agenda against the Jews, whereas by virtue of the former being uttered by the One true God, we can conclude that such utterance is simply a reflection of the Creator admonishing His own Creation, a thing which He most certainly has the right to do, especially when His people's actions warrant such an admonition.

Basically my point is that there are many things in Islam which in and of themselves are worthy of condemnation, yet there are other things which are only worthy of condemnation within an Islamic context, but which cannot be condemned in and of themselves, else you'll be indirectly (and falsely at that - a qualification I make for the sake of Asteriktos if ever he decides to pop his head into this discussion) condemning the Biblical God also - another example would include acts of violence.

Quote
... if that's what happened, as I'd like to see a reference

"The ox knows its owner, And the donkey its master’s crib; But Israel does not know, My people do not consider.” (Isaiah 1:3)

I think the obvious implication here, is that the donkey knows its master better than Israel knows her God; a clearly implicit simile re-inforced by the poetic parallel - the verses are actually structured:

"The ox knows its owner
 And the donkey its master’s crib;
 But Israel does not know,
 My people do not consider.”

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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2006, 06:27:28 AM »

Well, it's not really a matter of the Jews likening their own mental capacity to that of a donkey, but rather God Himself making the implicit comparison.

So in this instance, the only real difference between the relevant Biblical verse and the relevant Qur'anic verse, is that the former was uttered by the One true God, whereas the latter was uttered by an imposter. By virtue of the latter being uttered by an imposter, we can conclude that such utterance was motivated by a personal and discriminatory agenda against the Jews, whereas by virtue of the former being uttered by the One true God, we can conclude that such utterance is simply a reflection of the Creator admonishing His own Creation, a thing which He most certainly has the right to do, especially when His people's actions warrant such an admonition.

Basically my point is that there are many things in Islam which in and of themselves are worthy of condemnation, yet there are other things which are only worthy of condemnation within an Islamic context, but which cannot be condemned in and of themselves, else you'll be indirectly (and falsely at that - a qualification I make for the sake of Asteriktos if ever he decides to pop his head into this discussion) condemning the Biblical God also - another example would include acts of violence.

"The ox knows its owner, And the donkey its master’s crib; But Israel does not know, My people do not consider.” (Isaiah 1:3)

I think the obvious implication here, is that the donkey knows its master better than Israel knows her God; a clearly implicit simile re-inforced by the poetic parallel - the verses are actually structured:

"The ox knows its owner
 And the donkey its master’s crib;
 But Israel does not know,
 My people do not consider.”


This doesn't mean that the Jews are donkeys. It's not even saying their mental capacity is like a donkeys. But it is comparing their knowledge of their master, to a donkeys.

Considering that this is the only evidence you've cited so far you've not made for a very good case. I have no problem with Isaiah calling his own people sinful, if they were sinful.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2006, 08:57:19 AM »

Quote
It's not even saying their mental capacity is like a donkeys. But it is comparing their knowledge of their master, to a donkeys.

And knowledge is a factor determined by mental capacity, obviously. The Qur’anic verse likewise likens Jews to donkeys with respect to their knowledge of a thing; in this instance it is the Law of God. The implication is that they possess the law, but fail to understand and follow it, just as a donkey may carry books on its back, without being able to understand or follow the principles contained therein.

Again, Biblical simile is not only clearly implicit in the message of the verse, but it is an implication reinforced by the poetic parallel structure of the verse. It’s a common technique in Biblical Hebrew; you can find other examples of X being likened or even equated to Y via Hebrew poetic parallelism, such as Psalm 2:11-12 where The Son is equated with The Lord.

Quote
Considering that this is the only evidence you've cited so far you've not made for a very good case.

One verse suffices; it helps convey my point perfectly. I fail to see why more verses would be necessary, especially considering the fact that there is nothing ambiguous about the verse in question.

Quote
I have no problem with Isaiah calling his own people sinful, if they were sinful.

It is the Lord speaking; not Isaiah. It is not a Jewish prophet speaking to Jewish people; it is the Creator speaking to a certain group of His creation. The Lord is also alleged to be the speaker of the Qur’anic verses in question. The only difference between the two verses therefore, is that the true Lord is truly speaking in the Isaiah verse, whereas it is an imposter (either Muhammed himself, or some demon possessing Muhammed), who is speaking. The implications of this have been stated in my above post.

Obviously therefore, you couldn’t use that particular Qur’anic verse in a debate with a Muslim because its very qualification for condemnation hangs upon the very presupposition that it was uttered by an imposter rather than the One True God. You can’t for example, point to this verse (as you can with many others) and argue something along the lines of “The One True God would never utter such discrimination!” because the One True God did in fact utter such things, though it can hardly be called discrimination coming from God; rather, it would rightfully be considered the Creator's worthy admonishment of His own creation. I’m sure the Muslims would argue along the same lines.

My ultimate point is that we must distinguish between a thing condemnable in and of itself, and a thing condemnable only in a given context, else we fall into all sorts of traps. The issue in question is relatively minor compared to other issues, but it is nonetheless a valid example conveying my point nonetheless.
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« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2006, 05:10:52 AM »

And knowledge is a factor determined by mental capacity, obviously. The Qur’anic verse likewise likens Jews to donkeys with respect to their knowledge of a thing; in this instance it is the Law of God. The implication is that they possess the law, but fail to understand and follow it, just as a donkey may carry books on its back, without being able to understand or follow the principles contained therein.
Excepting at best one is the Moslems calling Jews donkeys and the other is the Jews calling the Jews donkeys.
One verse suffices; it helps convey my point perfectly. I fail to see why more verses would be necessary, especially considering the fact that there is nothing ambiguous about the verse in question.
My point wasn't that you've come up with one verse. You've come up with one bad piece of evidence.
It is the Lord speaking; not Isaiah. It is not a Jewish prophet speaking to Jewish people; it is the Creator speaking to a certain group of His creation.
I believe it is Isaiah speaking, inspired by God. I don't hold the book of Isaiah to be the verbatim word of God that you are making it out to be. And I don't believe Isaiah to be the ultimate source of godly wisdom.

The topic here is that Islam is full of hate; they hate the Jews by calling them donkeys. And you in effect say "Hang on, God says the same thing about them in the Bible". What you're now implying is that God hates the Jews! Is this the stance you want to take?

However I do agree that it is at least got God's involvement, whereas the Koran's not of God.

The Koran is calling the Jews donkeys for not following their god's words, which Moslems believe is in the Koran (they believe their god continually revealed the message to succeeding generations who failed; or the Jews would be like Moslems).
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 04:27:18 AM »

Quote
Excepting at best one is the Moslems calling Jews donkeys and the other is the Jews calling the Jews donkeys.

Putting all presuppositions aside, it is a matter of one person of one faith alleging that his god is likening Jews to donkeys, and another person of another faith alleging that his god is likening Jews to donkeys. To condemn the Qur’anic verse in principle therefore, is to condemn the Biblical verse since it shares the same general principle.

Quote
You've come up with one bad piece of evidence.

Well you’re free to dismiss everything I’ve said, and draw your own conclusions, but as it stands I can’t see any reason for this verse being a “bad” piece of evidence; it provides a perfect parallel, in principle, to the Qur’anic verse in question.

Quote
I believe it is Isaiah speaking, inspired by God. I don't hold the book of Isaiah to be the verbatim word of God that you are making it out to be.

Actually I am not making the entire book of Isaiah to be the direct word of God. Being acquainted with the context of the passage however, I can confidently say that the verse in question is at least the direct word of God:

2 Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth!
       For the LORD has spoken:
       "I reared children and brought them up,
       but they have rebelled against me.
 3 The ox knows his master,
       the donkey his owner's manger,
       but Israel does not know,
       my people do not understand."


Isaiah directly attributes verse 3 to God. Either Isaiah is a liar, or God is indeed the direct source of this simile.

Quote
The topic here is that Islam is full of hate; they hate the Jews by calling them donkeys. And you in effect say "Hang on, God says the same thing about them in the Bible". What you're now implying is that God hates the Jews! Is this the stance you want to take?

Please do not misrepresent my argument. I have already sufficiently qualified my position to negate such an interpretation of it. My argument is that condemning Jews is not in and of itself condemnable (I think I’ve made that point at least two times), rather it is only condemnable within certain contexts, and in particular within the context of the Qur’an. My ultimate point is that this conclusion rests upon the presupposition (which we as Christians take for granted) that God did not speak through the Qur’an. So in fact, I have implied the complete opposite of that which you falsely impute upon my position, for the only implication you can reasonably interpret from my argument is that only when such verses are uttered by the One True God, can they be considered anything other than hate or discriminatory verses.
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2006, 07:57:40 AM »

Putting all presuppositions aside, it is a matter of one person of one faith alleging that his god is likening Jews to donkeys, and another person of another faith alleging that his god is likening Jews to donkeys. To condemn the Qur’anic verse in principle therefore, is to condemn the Biblical verse since it shares the same general principle.
Not at all. If I am self-effacing and say something about myself, or you jokingly call me a loser, that's entirely different to the bully down the road plastering all over your school slanders of you.

It's akin to your father scolding you out of love for you and someone else beating you up.
Well you’re free to dismiss everything I’ve said, and draw your own conclusions, but as it stands I can’t see any reason for this verse being a “bad” piece of evidence; it provides a perfect parallel, in principle, to the Qur’anic verse in question.
See above
Actually I am not making the entire book of Isaiah to be the direct word of God. Being acquainted with the context of the passage however, I can confidently say that the verse in question is at least the direct word of God:
2 Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth!
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  For the LORD has spoken:
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  "I reared children and brought them up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me.
 3 The ox knows his master,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  the donkey his owner's manger,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  but Israel does not know,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  my people do not understand."

Isaiah directly attributes verse 3 to God. Either Isaiah is a liar, or God is indeed the direct source of this simile.
So you're arguing that God hates the Jews?
Please do not misrepresent my argument. I have already sufficiently qualified my position to negate such an interpretation of it. My argument is that condemning Jews is not in and of itself condemnable (I think I’ve made that point at least two times), rather it is only condemnable within certain contexts, and in particular within the context of the Qur’an. My ultimate point is that this conclusion rests upon the presupposition (which we as Christians take for granted) that God did not speak through the Qur’an. So in fact, I have implied the complete opposite of that which you falsely impute upon my position, for the only implication you can reasonably interpret from my argument is that only when such verses are uttered by the One True God, can they be considered anything other than hate or discriminatory verses.
I agree that it's not condemnable within contexts. That's the very point I made earlier about the Jews saying something about the Jews and Moslems saying something about the Jews. How you then turn around and think that this is a misrepresentation seems to suggest you're not sure what it is you want to be arguing.

Further, I still don't believe that Isaiah means that his words are Gods, verbatim. I'm not sure of any tradition where this is believed to be so, but I am prepared to be wrong here, if you can cite any evidence.

And even then, I think again of the example of God's stern rebuke is nothing like Muhammed's - given that we both agree that Islam is not from God. I'm unsure again which argument you want here. You agree the Koran's not of God, so that the words of Muhammed about the Jews is different from the words of the Jews about the Jews; or even the words of a loving Father about His children.
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2006, 08:55:16 AM »

Quote
If I am self-effacing and say something about myself, or you jokingly call me a loser, that's entirely different to the bully down the road plastering all over your school slanders of you.

Yet none of the above examples are analogous to the situation with the Isaiah verse, where Isaiah the Prophet alleges that God Himself directly uttered this condemnation of the Jews. According to Islamic theology, the God of Islam is likewise the God of the Jews; so in principle, as i have argued over and over again, there is simply no difference, in principle. The fundamental difference is with respect to the facts as understood within a Christian framework i.e. that the God of the Bible is the true God of the Jews and hence He has the right to condemn His own people for their actions, whilst the "god" of the Qur'an is an imposter who has no right to condemn the Jews for they are not his people and have not wronged him.

Muslims obviously do not work within a Christian framework, so if you presuppose that framework in a discussion with a Muslim then they can rightfully criticise you for lacking objectivity. That is my point. The Qur'anic verse in question may be a good enough example for us, as Christians, to interpret as an example of hate and discrimination, but it is certainly not one that can be employed in an argument with a Muslim.

Quote
So you're arguing that God hates the Jews?

 Roll Eyes Bro, I already answered this in my last post, and the post before that, and the post before that. In fact, allow me to quote myself from my last three posts, to show where I have clearly answered this question:

April 6, 4:27 AM:

So in fact, I have implied the complete opposite of that which you falsely impute upon my position, for the only implication you can reasonably interpret from my argument is that only when such verses are uttered by the One True God, can they be considered anything other than hate or discriminatory verses.

April 4, 8:57 AM:

You can’t for example, point to this verse (as you can with many others) and argue something along the lines of “The One True God would never utter such discrimination!” because the One True God did in fact utter such things, though it can hardly be called discrimination coming from God; rather, it would rightfully be considered the Creator's worthy admonishment of His own creation.

April 3, 8:47 AM:

So in this instance, the only real difference between the relevant Biblical verse and the relevant Qur'anic verse, is that the former was uttered by the One true God, whereas the latter was uttered by an imposter. By virtue of the latter being uttered by an imposter, we can conclude that such utterance was motivated by a personal and discriminatory agenda against the Jews, whereas by virtue of the former being uttered by the One true God, we can conclude that such utterance is simply a reflection of the Creator admonishing His own Creation, a thing which He most certainly has the right to do, especially when His people's actions warrant such an admonition.

Quote
How you then turn around and think that this is a misrepresentation seems to suggest you're not sure what it is you want to be arguing.

Actually, the fact you relate my valid claim to being misrepresented to issues irrelevant to the the issue that is the subject of the misrepresentation in question, only proves that you're not really focusing. You claimed that my position entailed that God hates the Jews, when in fact I sufficiently negated this interpretation of my position in my last three posts (see the relevant quotations above); when you impute false implications to my argument which are clearly not intended, and which are in fact clearly rejected, then that is a misrepresentation.

Quote
Further, I still don't believe that Isaiah means that his words are Gods, verbatim. I'm not sure of any tradition where this is believed to be so, but I am prepared to be wrong here, if you can cite any evidence.

The evidence is before your eyes; Isaiah is not speaking of his own will; he is quoting the Lord. He introduces the relevant verse with "For the Lord has spoken:". As if this is not already clear, the translaters have put quotation marks around the relevant verses to indicate that Isaiah is quoting direct speech from God. Either Isaiah is lying, deluded, or telling the truth such that God truly spoke these words, just as Isaiah claims He did. If you have another possible explanation behind Isaiah explicitly claiming, in the text itself, to be relaying the direct speech of God, other than the plain and obvious explanation i.e. that Isaiah is indeed quoting the direct words of God as he, being the prophet that he is, has received them, then please feel free to let us in on it.

Again, just to make it clear; I am not speaking about God speaking through Isaiah, such that all the words of Isaiah become, in effect, the words of God. I am speaking about Isaiah disrupting his own personal monologue by introducing the speech of God as he claims to have heard the Lord speak it.

Quote
You agree the Koran's not of God, so that the words of Muhammed about the Jews is different from the words of the Jews about the Jews; or even the words of a loving Father about His children.

Yes I agree! Now concentrate here:

Our above agreement is based upon the presupposition that the Qur'an is not of God, and that the Bible is of God. This is not a presupposition you can import into dialogue with a Muslim, since it is not one they accept. They can easily accuse you of begging the question. The dialogue would go something alone the lines of:

Christian: Your book likens Jews to a donkey! Oh, what hate!
Muslim: Wait a sec; so does your book.
Christian: No! There is no hate, in my book since it is God speaking in my book, and hence it is merely the case of a Loving Father admonishing His own children.
Muslim: Well, I believe that to be the same case with my book - Allah is simply admonishing the Jews who are his children and who have forsaken him.
Christian: But your book wasn't written by God! The author of your book is not the Father of the Jews.
Muslim: Says you...
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2006, 08:58:34 PM »

Yet none of the above examples are analogous to the situation with the Isaiah verse, where Isaiah the Prophet alleges that God Himself directly uttered this condemnation of the Jews.

It is still debatable whether he is saying God says it, or wether he is saying it in the terms of ‘this is the will of God’. And even then you still haven’t accepted that God doesn’t hate, therefore claiming it’s from God is even more fatal to your argument, than if it were Isaiah saying it.

According to Islamic theology, the God of Islam is likewise the God of the Jews; so in principle, as i have argued over and over again, there is simply no difference, in principle.

You can not ignore the very real difference that the Koran is not from God. It’s equivalent to making a relativist argument that many different religious books are valid in their interpretations on morals, because all claim to be from God. You are simply validating it because they make the claim its from God. There’s no unity of principle here at all
The fundamental difference is with respect to the facts as understood within a Christian framework i.e. that the God of the Bible is the true God of the Jews and hence He has the right to condemn His own people for their actions, whilst the "god" of the Qur'an is an imposter who has no right to condemn the Jews for they are not his people and have not wronged him.
Why do you keep ignoring this difference too? Bible condemns the Jews of the Bible, Koran condemns the Jews not of the Koran.
Muslims obviously do not work within a Christian framework, so if you presuppose that framework in a discussion with a Muslim then they can rightfully criticise you for lacking objectivity. That is my point. The Qur'anic verse in question may be a good enough example for us, as Christians, to interpret as an example of hate and discrimination, but it is certainly not one that can be employed in an argument with a Muslim.
See objection above, difference between self-criticism and criticism of others.
Bro, I already answered this in my last post, and the post before that, and the post before that. In fact, allow me to quote myself from my last three posts, to show where I have clearly answered this question:
You simply can’t ignore the fact that the Koran is not of God. ÂÂ You’re in fact attempting to justify their hatred simply because they believe it’s from God. Might as well support Jihad because in effect they claim it’s from God therefore there’s no real difference between them saying war from God is good to us saying war is bad.

But you’re determined to make many different arguments in this apology of Islamic hatred
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2006, 10:47:58 PM »

The crux of EkhristosAnesti's argument is simply that Islam claims it's from God, therefore we can't judge it by our standards. It says it slays idolators for al-lah, who are we to judge?

Ignore whether their claims are baseless in the first instance.
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2006, 11:18:40 PM »

Yes I agree! Now concentrate here:

Our above agreement is based upon the presupposition that the Qur'an is not of God, and that the Bible is of God. This is not a presupposition you can import into dialogue with a Muslim, since it is not one they accept.
In the first place who cares? I’m not arguing with Moslems here, I thought you were Christian. I don’t care that a Moslem for instance feels it’s justified that Muhammed had intercourse with a nine year old because he was the prophet of al-lah based on the circular logic that he IS the prophet of their god, therefore entitled to do that. It’s not the argument I’m making.

I am not in dialogue with Moslems here. The presupposition is not important unless you’ve switched sides. That’s your first mistake.

We both believe that the Koran is not of God.

They can easily accuse you of begging the question. The dialogue would go something alone the lines of:
 
I’ve already pointed out the faults here. One is not rebuking from one party on oneself. The other is not. That is a major difference.

One case is the Jews, Isaiah saying “We’re silly idiots for not following God”, the other is Moslems saying “Look at those idiots for not being Moslems!” You still can’t see the difference.  That’s your second mistake. EVEN IF I were arguing with Moslems here and I’m not, despite you trying to wish this argument into an entirely different context there’s a difference between self-effacing remonstrations “Hey let’s get our act together” to “Hey lets despise them for being different from us”. The calling together of Jews by Jews to follow God is as ‘hateful’ as Moslems despising Jews for not being Moslem. That makes sense ??

And you still have missed the point that you’re implying that God hates the Jews by insisting that this verse in the OT is the same as the one in the Koran. LET ALONE the fact that there’s dozens and dozens of verses of hate for the Jews in the Koran, you want to say that if there’s just ‘one’ similar verse in the OT that it’s all the same.

Evidently you now seem to think that context is irrelevant.

For you it would now be impossible to argue any point against Islam because their principle stand that their message is from God negates any argument from you; you’re left with two people making the same claims to be from God.
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2006, 12:48:06 AM »

LOL You're going to make me repeat everything i've said in my last 5 posts...unbelievable. You don't seem to be getting it. That's fine; I am still more than willing to continue this discussion for the next 10 pages if that's what it takes, for as Asteriktos said in a previous thread, prideful people don't like being misrepresented. You unfortunately fail to learn that straw men cannot stand the heat of the flame. You build a straw man in the very position that the last one was burnt; as a prideful person myself, I cannot let you get away with such consistent violations of reasonable discussion, regardless of the fact they're probably blatant enough without having to be explicitly exposed.

Before we continue however, allow me to ask you one question, which I hope you are capable of answering with a mere yes or no:

Do you believe the Qur'anic verses in question, by exclusive virtue of their message, to be valid objective evidence that the Qur'an is not the word of God? In other words, would I be making a valid argument, if I were to address a bunch of non-Christians who are looking for the true religion and the true God, saying: "Surah 62:5 likens Jews to donkeys, therefore the Qur'an cannot be from God, since God would never utter such things"?
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2006, 01:05:17 AM »

UHHHHH, What's a straw man?  Embarrassed
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2006, 01:36:36 AM »

Generally, a straw man is an argument based upon a misrepresentation of the other's position. It is called a straw man, because of its weakness and its susceptibility to being easily refuted, just as sraws (in reference to plant fibres used to make baskets etc.) are weak and susceptible to being easily burnt.
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2006, 03:54:53 AM »

LOL You're going to make me repeat everything i've said in my last 5 posts...unbelievable. You don't seem to be getting it. That's fine; I am still more than willing to continue this discussion for the next 10 pages if that's what it takes, for as Asteriktos said in a previous thread, prideful people don't like being misrepresented. You unfortunately fail to learn that straw men cannot stand the heat of the flame. You build a straw man in the very position that the last one was burnt; as a prideful person myself, I cannot let you get away with such consistent violations of reasonable discussion, regardless of the fact they're probably blatant enough without having to be explicitly exposed.
Actually it's you who doesn't get it, and thus I am certain you'll be more than happy to post for the next 10 pages. Thus you now avoid real debate and go to speculating motives etc., pushing towards ad hom.

It is quite ridiculous of you to posit an argument here from an Islamic point of view when we're not Moslems and thus accept that the Koran's not from God. AND even if you were a Moslem you still can't show how someone talking in-house is the same as someone condemning another group of people... and again even here you take to look out of the context that they don't just do it once, but many times.

2:96 says that they are the greediest people...

And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who - ascribe partners to Allah (and do not believe in Resurrection - Magians, pagans, and idolaters, etc.). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allah is All-Seer of what they do.

 2:61 says that al-lah stamped wrtechedness upon them.

4:61 Says that they (and Christians) believe in idols

5:52 they are cursed.


2: 65  And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."
2: 66  So We made this punishment an example to their own and to succeeding generations and a lesson to those who are Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5:93 the Jews are cursed

5:51 don't take a Jew as a friend

5:53 Jews (and Christians) are losers

5:57 Don't choose Jews, (or Christians, or disbelievers) as guardians

5:59 Jews (and Christians) are evil-doers

5:63 Rabbis do evil

9: 29    

Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyahwith willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

                                   

30 And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

                                   

31 They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) . Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."

                                   

32 They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad  has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

 

Some Jews were turned into monkeys and pigs.

5: 60    

Say (O Muhammad  to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."



And the list goes on, but hey, because you've found one single verse you can't even show is of the same category, you think you have a case. You can't show it is of the same category arguing as a Christian, because you know its inspired by God, and there verse isn't. You can't even show from an Islamic perspective because one's about criticism that's inwards, and the other is outwards. But do go on.



I am looking forward to your next apology of Islam
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2006, 03:56:26 AM »

UHHHHH, What's a straw man?
It's like when I post on a forum for Christians about what Moslems say; hateful words against the Jews and EkhristosAnesti enters here to posit an apology for them by saying that at very least they really believe that their words of hate are from their god; thus justifying it as being the equal of words that ARE from God's inspired book
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2006, 03:58:34 AM »

UHHHHH, What's a straw man?  Embarrassed

You should also ask about 'projection' where someone can't debate anymore and rather than admit defeat claims that the other person is just being prideful
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2006, 04:21:26 AM »

montalban,

Quote
It's like when I post on a forum for Christians about what Moslems say; hateful words against the Jews and EkhristosAnesti enters here to posit an apology for them

Even if we were to assume for arguments sake that people were as stupid as you are to have actually interpreted that to be my actual position, it still wouldn't constitute a straw man fallacy. You have no grasp on basic logic whatsoever, do you?

Anyone who has been on this forum for longer than a month knows that I am anything but an islamic apologist. Anyone who possesses common sense, and has read my last 4-5 posts, knows that I have done anything but defend Islam. It is not my problem that you're too inept to see the basic point that i've been making for the past five posts, which regards not the validity or invalidity of the Qur'anic verses per se, but rather the validity or invalidity of using those vereses for objective polemical purposes.

Portions removed. Please answer the question before I officially shut you down. Here it is again, don't cop-out now, and answer the question; you have nothing to be afraid of:

Quote
Do you believe the Qur'anic verses in question, by exclusive virtue of their message, to be valid objective evidence that the Qur'an is not the word of God? In other words, would I be making a valid argument, if I were to address a bunch of non-Christians who are looking for the true religion and the true God, saying: "Surah 62:5 likens Jews to donkeys, therefore the Qur'an cannot be from God, since God would never utter such things"?


Quote
You should also ask about 'projection' where someone can't debate anymore and rather than admit defeat claims that the other person is just being prideful

Portions removed. I attributed being prideful to myself, and myself alone. My point was that I have too much pride to just let some wannabe-apologist like yourself get away with the stupidity you present. Second of all, I told you that I will respond (it won't take any effort at all, since all i have to do is repeat already made arguments until common sense finally kicks in for you); I am not evading a response, I am merely delaying posting it until you answer my question, in order that I may further accentuate your already quite evident stupidity just a little further. So answer the question, so I can continue to crush any remaining ounce of credibility left in you.
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2006, 05:20:09 AM »

Actually, I know your type too well; you'll most probably avoid answering the question, and then accuse me of evading a response to you because I can't admit defeat bla bla bla...so let's continue the show:

Quote
It is still debatable whether he is saying God says it

lol If it is debatable then debate it; hurry up, what are you waiting for? I don’t see you putting up much of a debate; all you’re doing is blindly denying or at the very least casting doubt upon the perfectly clear and obvious implication of the verse, without any basis. I have given you the evidence; that evidence is in the immediate context of the verses in question where Isaiah explicitly introduces those very verses as the Lord’s speech.

2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
 ÃƒÆ’‚  for the LORD has spoken:
"Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me.
3The ox knows its owner,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  my people do not understand."

Every scholarly translation of this passage ends verse 2 with a semicolon, to indicate the fact that what immediately follows, is the content of that which the Lord has spoken. Most other scholarly translations go even further by putting the passage in question around speech marks to indicate that Isaiah is in fact quoting the Lord’s speech as he has heard them.

Quote
And even then you still haven’t accepted that God doesn’t hate

You can’t really be this slow…I have quite explicitly stated in my last 4 posts now, that attributing these verses to God does NOT indicate that God hates anyone. Allow me to quote from my last post:

Quote
I already answered this in my last post, and the post before that, and the post before that. In fact, allow me to quote myself from my last three posts, to show where I have clearly answered this question:

April 6, 4:27 AM:

So in fact, I have implied the complete opposite of that which you falsely impute upon my position, for the only implication you can reasonably interpret from my argument is that only when such verses are uttered by the One True God, can they be considered anything other than hate or discriminatory verses.

April 4, 8:57 AM:

You can’t for example, point to this verse (as you can with many others) and argue something along the lines of “The One True God would never utter such discrimination!” because the One True God did in fact utter such things, though it can hardly be called discrimination coming from God; rather, it would rightfully be considered the Creator's worthy admonishment of His own creation.

April 3, 8:47 AM:

So in this instance, the only real difference between the relevant Biblical verse and the relevant Qur'anic verse, is that the former was uttered by the One true God, whereas the latter was uttered by an imposter. By virtue of the latter being uttered by an imposter, we can conclude that such utterance was motivated by a personal and discriminatory agenda against the Jews, whereas by virtue of the former being uttered by the One true God, we can conclude that such utterance is simply a reflection of the Creator admonishing His own Creation, a thing which He most certainly has the right to do, especially when His people's actions warrant such an admonition.

Quote
You can not ignore the very real difference that the Koran is not from God.

 How is it that I ignored this very real difference, when I explicitly acknowledged this very real difference in my last post:

Quote
The fundamental difference is with respect to the facts as understood within a Christian framework i.e. that the God of the Bible is the true God of the Jews and hence He has the right to condemn His own people for their actions, whilst the "god" of the Qur'an is an imposter who has no right to condemn the Jews for they are not his people and have not wronged him.

Quote
You are simply validating it because they make the claim its from God.

I am not validating anything. I have made my point and purpose perfectly clear; need I repeat it to you again? Evidently yes. Here you go:

Quote
Muslims obviously do not work within a Christian framework, so if you presuppose that framework in a discussion with a Muslim then they can rightfully criticise you for lacking objectivity. That is my point. The Qur'anic verse in question may be a good enough example for us, as Christians, to interpret as an example of hate and discrimination, but it is certainly not one that can be employed in an argument with a Muslim.

I am neither attempting to validate or invalidate anything; I am discussing reasonable grounds upon which one may have a healthy debate with a Muslim without being laughed at for importing extreme presuppositions that the other simply does not accept. Maybe you don’t have much experience with debate, but one of the ABC rules of any debate is that you cannot presuppose a thing that is not mutually accepted by both parties, else you beg the question.

Quote
You’re in fact attempting to justify their hatred

The only thing I’m justifying, to repeat myself for the umpteenth time, is the fact that there is no objective basis within the context of a Christian-Muslim/non-Christian dialogue/debate to bring this verse up as an example of “Islamic hatred”; it is a position we as Christians can subjectively adopt upon the basis of the presupposition that the Qur’an was not authored by God. In order to prove to the Muslim that this verse is one of hate, you would have to prove to them that the Qur’an is not authored by God. If you use this verse however, as evidence that the god of the Qur'an is not the true God you have begged the question.

Quote
The crux of EkhristosAnesti's argument is simply that Islam claims it's from God, therefore we can't judge it by our standards.

First of all, be a man, and address me directly. Trust me, I doubt anyone really cares about this discussion…it died 2-3 exchanges ago once I started having to repeat myself for you. You're only real reader is myself now, since I have an express interest in crushing the credibility of those who will go to the extent of distorting another’s argument just so they can look good; so address me in the second person like a normal person.

Second of all, you’re once again attacking a straw man; deceptively misrepresenting my position, just so you can look good. It’s not going to work. I shall present the crux of my own argument, thank you very much. The crux of my argument is not that one can’t judge Islam by their own standards (one is free to do whatever one wishes), but rather that one cannot import those standards within the context of objective polemics, else that person will probably be laughed at and critisised for violating basic principles of reasonable discussion.

Quote
In the first place who cares? I’m not arguing with Moslems here

I don’t care if you care. If you have no interest in my point then don’t respond. I have explicitly clarified (at least 5-6 times now) that my basic general point regards the employment of such verses in polemical debates/discussions with those who do not adopt Christian presuppositions i.e. Muslims or non-Christians in general. Instead of ignoring my point out of lack of concern of interest however, you have decided to consistently and deceptively misrepresent my point.

Quote
The presupposition is not important unless you’ve switched sides.

It is important if you are in dialogue with a non-Christian in general (i.e. one who does not accept your presuppositions), unless you want that person to think you’re irrational.

Quote
One case is the Jews, Isaiah saying “We’re silly idiots for not following God”,

NO. The Jews are not speaking about themselves! READ THE VERSE. The subject of the verse is speaking in the first person:

"Children have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me."

Who was it that reared up the nation of Israel? Who was it that the nation of Israel rebelled against? GOD.

Quote
You still can’t see the difference.

LOL The irony is amazing. You’ve ignored the perspective, structure, content, and context of the verses in question for the last 5-6 posts now.

Quote
And you still have missed the point that you’re implying that God hates the Jews

No im NOT, it is you who consistently misses my expressly made point regarding the fact that whether these verses are to be interpreted as hate verses or not is contingent upon the source of such verses. If God spoke them, then they’re not hate verses. If an imposter spoke them, then they are hate verses. To state that God hates the Jews by speaking these verses elicits a direct contradiction according to the premises I have clearly laid down, since by very virtue of their being spoken by the One True God, they cannot be considered hate verses (please read my last 5-6 posts).

Quote
For you it would now be impossible to argue any point against Islam because their principle stand that their message is from God negates any argument from you

Absolute nonsense. I can argue any point against Islam, as long as the proposition that the Qur’an is not authored by God is not presupposed to make my argument, but rather stands as the logical consequence of my argument. There are some acts for example that I believe to be objectively immoral acts (i.e. the wrongness of such acts is not contingent upon the source of those acts — though it may possibly be contingent upon other factors that can be taken into account), such that they could never be attributed to the One True God, such as child rape for example. Let child rape be Y. In this instance the argument would be: X inspired Y, therefore X cannot be the One true God. If that logic were applied to this case however (i.e. if we let "condemning the Jews" be Y), we would be condemning the God of the OT.

In conclusion, I am not providing an apology for Islam or anything of the sort. I am simply cautioning those who may want to use the material in question for polemical purposes, by pointing out that some verses need to be considered more carefully, else one may fall into a trap whereby they’re exposed of being devoid of objectivity and forced to indirectly condemn their own book i.e. they humiliate themselves. I have seen it happen a number of times.
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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2006, 05:48:56 AM »

montalban,

Even if we were to assume for arguments sake that people were as stupid as you are to have actually interpreted that to be my actual position, it still wouldn't constitute a straw man fallacy. You have no grasp on basic logic whatsoever, do you?
Given you've now renounced debate and content on name calling you've shown your true colours.
Anyone who has been on this forum for longer than a month knows that I am anything but an islamic apologist. Anyone who possesses common sense, and has read my last 4-5 posts, knows that I have done anything but defend Islam. It is not my problem that you're too inept to see the basic point that i've been making for the past five posts, which regards not the validity or invalidity of the Qur'anic verses per se, but rather the validity or invalidity of using those vereses for objective polemical purposes.
What 'objective polemical purposes'? Given that this is a Christian forum where we all agree that the Koran's not of God. Given that the verses contained therein are not of the same ilk as that in the Bible; considering one is inward criticism, and the other is not. I am not here to argue that the Koran is not from God, because we both accept this. I am here to argue that the Koran is full of hateful verses.

At best you claim that one verse in the Bible is the equal of the one in the Koran therefore a Moslem could say "But your verse is just as bad as ours". But you just repeating this ad infinitum doesn't say so. I've already pointed out the inward critique -v- outward slanging dichotomy. I've stated that the Koranic verse can't be viewed alone; because it's not just one repugnantly vindicitive verse.... I even gave more; it's part of a trend. It's why Moslems aren't supposed to take Jews and Christians as friends, but you ignore that.

Given also on another thread you had a problem defining 'an orthodox church' with 'the Orthodox Church', it's no wonder you're now in a rage.

For simplicity's sake I did but state a few examples. Later I showed more. Here's even more (some few are repeated) that show that the Jews are ignorant of the message of God by virtue that they are Jews, and not Moslems, or that they've concealed the word of God (which is why they're not Moslem).

Surah  

Al Fatiha
Ayah [7]      
  The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [76]      
  And when they (Jews) meet those who believe (Muslims), they say, "We believe", but when they meet one another in private, they say, "Shall you (Jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allah has revealed to you [Jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him , that which are written in the Taurat (Torah)], that they (Muslims) may argue with you (Jews) about it before your Lord?" Have you (Jews) then no understanding?  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [77]      
  Know they (Jews) not that Allah knows what they conceal and what they reveal?  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [78]      
  And there are among them (Jews) unlettered people, who know not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [80]      
  And they (Jews) say, "The Fire (i.e. Hell-fire on the Day of Resurrection) shall not touch us but for a few numbered days." Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Have you taken a covenant from Allah, so that Allah will not break His Covenant? Or is it that you say of Allah what you know not?"  
 


 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [96]      
  And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who - ascribe partners to Allah (and do not believe in Resurrection - Magians, pagans, and idolaters, etc.). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allah is All-Seer of what they do.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [99]      
  And indeed We have sent down to you manifest Ayat (these Verses of the Qur'an which inform in detail about the news of the Jews and their secret intentions, etc.), and none disbelieve in them but Fasiqun (those who rebel against Allah's Command).  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [105]      
  Neither those who disbelieve among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) nor Al-Mushrikun (the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc.) like that there should be sent down unto you any good from your Lord. But Allah chooses for His Mercy whom He wills. And Allah is the Owner of Great Bounty.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [109]      
  Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their ownselves, even, after the truth (that Muhammad Peace be upon him is Allah's Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till Allah brings His Command. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [113]      
  The Jews said that the Christians follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); and the Christians said that the Jews follow nothing (i.e. are not on the right religion); though they both recite the Scripture. Like unto their word, said (the pagans) who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection about that wherein they have been differing.  
 
 Surah  Al-Baqarah
Ayah [116]      
  And they (Jews, Christians and pagans) say: Allah has begotten a son (children or offspring).Glory be to Him (Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth, and all surrender with obedience (in worship) to Him.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [120]      
  Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance. And if you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'an), then you would have against Allah neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [135]      
  And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them, O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikun (those who worshipped others along with Allah - see V.2:105)."  
 


 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [140]      
  Or say you that Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya'qub (Jacob) and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya'qub (Jacob)] were Jews or Christians? Say, "Do you know better or does Allah (knows better...; that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony [i.e. to believe in Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him when he comes, written in their Books. (See Verse 7:157)] he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do."  
Note: this shows that Moslems believe that the prophets of old were Moslem.

 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [142]      
  The fools (pagans, hypocrites, and Jews) among the people will say, "What has turned them (Muslims) from their Qiblah [prayer direction (towards Jerusalem)] to which they were used to face in prayer." Say, (O Muhammad ) "To Allah belong both, east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a Straight Way."  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [144]      
  Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's ) face towards the heaven. Surely, We shall turn you to a Qiblah (prayer direction) that shall please you, so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid- al-Haram (at Makkah). And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction. Certainly, the people who were given the Scriptures (i.e. Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka'bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [145]      
  And even if you were to bring to the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) all the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they would not follow your Qiblah (prayer direction), nor are you going to follow their Qiblah (prayer direction). And they will not follow each other's Qiblah (prayer direction). Verily, if you follow their desires after that which you have received of knowledge (from Allah), then indeed you will be one of the Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, etc.).  
 
 Surah  

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [146]      
  Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognise him (Muhammad  or the Ka'bah at Makkah) as they recongise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad  which are written in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)].  
 
  Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [19]      
  Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.  


You say you are not an Islamic apologist, then don't give an apology for Islam. So again a Jews calling on Jews to repent and to heed the word of God is in no way akin to a Moslem saying the Jews are donkeys for being essentially Jewish.
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2006, 06:01:30 AM »

 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [64]      
  Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."  

Thus the very nature of a Jews is to be wrong. The very scope of your error is probably what you've not realised. This is not to Jews who have turned away from God, but to Jews because being a Jew is (according to Islam) to have turned away from God.
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [65]      
  O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you dispute about Ibrahim (Abraham), while the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) were not revealed till after him? Have you then no sense?  
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [69]      
  A party of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish to lead you astray. But they shall not lead astray anyone except themselves, and they perceive not.  
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [70]      
  O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): "Why do you disbelieve in the Ayat of Allah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad  present in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)."  
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [71]      
  O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): "Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"  
 


 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [98]      
  Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you reject the Ayat of Allah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) while Allah is Witness to what you do?"  

Again the very nature of being Jewish is to be against God.
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [99]      
  Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Why do you stop those who have believed, from the Path of Allah, seeking to make it seem crooked, while you (yourselves) are witnesses [to Muhammad  as a Messenger of Allah and Islam (Allah's Religion, i.e. to worship none but Him Alone)]? And Allah is not unaware of what you do."  
 


 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [110]      
  You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad  and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun (disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command).  
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [118]      
  O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.  

This is the verse imploting Moslems not to have Jews as friends because they are Jewish, which is, according to Islam by its very nature a state of being disobedient of God.
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [181]      
  Indeed, Allah has heard the statement of those (Jews) who say: "Truly, Allah is poor and we are rich!" We shall record what they have said and their killing of the Prophets unjustly, and We shall say: "Taste you the torment of the burning (Fire)."  
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [183]      
  Those (Jews) who said: "Verily, Allah has taken our promise not to believe in any Messenger unless he brings to us an offering which the fire (from heaven) shall devour." Say: "Verily, there came to you Messengers before me, with clear signs and even with what you speak of; why then did you kill them, if you are truthful?"  
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [186]      
  You shall certainly be tried and tested in your wealth and properties and in your personal selves, and you shall certainly hear much that will grieve you from those who received the Scripture before you (Jews and Christians) and from those who ascribe partners to Allah, but if you persevere patiently, and become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2) then verily, that will be a determining factor in all affairs, and that is from the great matters, [which you must hold on with all your efforts].  
 
 Surah  

Al-'Imran
Ayah [187]      
  (And remember) when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) to make it (the news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad  and the religious knowledge) known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it, but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! And indeed worst is that which they bought.  
Again the very nature of being Jewish is to be despised.


 Surah  

An-Nisa
Ayah [46]      
  Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: "We hear your word (O Muhammad  ) and disobey," and "Hear and let you (O Muhammad ) hear nothing." And Ra'ina with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islam). And if only they had said: "We hear and obey", and "Do make us understand," it would have been better for them, and more proper, but Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not except a few.  
 


 Surah  

An-Nisa
Ayah [153]      
  The people of the Scripture (Jews) ask you to cause a book to descend upon them from heaven. Indeed they asked Musa (Moses) for even greater than that, when they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were struck with thunder clap and lightning for their wickedness. Then they worshipped the calf even after clear proofs, evidences, and signs had come to them. (Even) so We forgave them. And We gave Musa (Moses) a clear proof of authority.  
 
 Surah  

An-Nisa
Ayah [156]      
  And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse);  
 
 Surah  

An-Nisa
Ayah [159]      
  And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.  
 
 Surah  

An-Nisa
Ayah [160]      
  For the wrongdoing of the Jews, We made unlawful to them certain good foods which has been lawful to them, and for their hindering many from Allah's Way;  
 
 Surah  

An-Nisa
Ayah [171]      
  O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is AllSufficient as a Disposer of affairs.  
 


 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [15]      
  O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad ) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad  ) and a plain Book (this Qur'an).  

Thus EkhristosAnesti your mistake.
To show an appropriate comparison you would need to show that the Jews had verses that despise non-Jews for the very nature of being non-Jewish.

You have not. Even if you did, it would not negate the Koranic verses at all. All it would mean is that the Koran is full of hate, and you've found hateful verses somewhere else.

Conversely, a proper comparison to the Jewish verse you quote would be if in the Koran there's a verse saying something like "Oh you Arabs who have heard the word of God and have turned your back upon Him, you are like donkeys".

My Koranic verses show, in context that the very nature of being Jewish is hated. You can't argue that the Biblical verse is full of hate, whether it be from God OR not, so it still isn't a proper comparison. This is obviously upseting to you because you now recourse to calling me names and setting challenges that have nothing to do with this subject; such as the 'objective proof of God' or some such rot; as if losing one debate is not enough for you.
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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2006, 06:12:55 AM »

As I've oft said here the very nature of the Islamic verses is to hate Jews simply because they are Jews. They do this because in the Islamic mind-set a Jew is someone who was given the word of God, but has wilfully turned their back on it, or corrupted it. They believe this because Islam believes that Muhammad was the messenger of their god. They believe this and that his message was needed BECAUSE earlier prophets were not listened to. They believe Moses was a Moslem. But the Jews turned their back on Moses. BECAUSE of this (as evidenced in the OP) they urge Moslems not to make friends with Jews.

If you can find something in the OT that says "Make not friends with "X" because they have turned their back on God" you'd have a better comparison. If you found Jewish scholars saying "Because the Bible says that "X" have turned their backs on God we're not to have them as our friends" you'd be on your way to making an even better comparison.

Here's even more verses:
 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [51]      
  O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).  
 
 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [57]      
  O you who believe! Take not for Auliya' (protectors and helpers) those who take your religion for a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before you, nor from among the disbelievers; and fear Allah if you indeed are true believers.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [59]      
  Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are Fasiqun [rebellious and disobedient (to Allah)]?"  

Thus the very nature of being Jewish is to be disobedient of those who believe in al-lah
 
 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [60]      
  Say (O Muhammad  to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hellfire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)."  

Al-lah punishes the Jews, for being Jews.
 
 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [62]      
  And you see many of them (Jews) hurrying for sin and transgression, and eating illegal things [as bribes and Riba (usury), etc.]. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing.  
 
 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [64]      
  The Jews say: "Allah's Hand is tied up (i.e. He does not give and spend of His Bounty)." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for what they uttered. Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched. He spends (of His Bounty) as He wills. Verily, the Revelation that has come to you from Allah increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. We have put enmity and hatred amongst them till the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war, Allah extinguished it; and they (ever) strive to make mischief on earth. And Allah does not like the Mufsidun (mischiefmakers).  

The Jews here are said to lie about God
   
 Surah  

Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [68]      
  Say (O Muhammad ) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad ) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.  

Here's a very telling verse. For Moslems the Torah and Gospel as it should have been understood would have contained the Islamic message.
 
 Surah  

Al-An'am
Ayah [91]      
  They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters, etc.) did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allah send down to any human being (by inspiration)." Say (O Muhammad ): "Who then sent down the Book which Musa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much). And you (believers in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad ), were taught (through the Qur'an) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allah (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, Vol.7, Page 37).  
 


 Surah  

Al-An'am
Ayah [157]      
  Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: "If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians)." So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur'an) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy. Who then does more wrong than one who rejects the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah and turns away therefrom? We shall requite those who turn away from Our Ayat with an evil torment, because of their turning away (from them). [Tafsir At-Tabari, Vol. 8, Page 95]  
 


 Surah  

Al-A'raf
Ayah [168]      
  And We have broken them (i.e. the Jews) up into various separate groups on the earth, some of them are righteous and some are away from that. And We tried them with good (blessings) and evil (calamities) in order that they might turn (to Allah's Obedience).  
 
 Surah  

At-Taubah
Ayah [29]      
  Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyahwith willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.  
 
 Surah  

At-Taubah
Ayah [30]      
  And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!  

Simply put you've taken one Biblical verse out of context. You don't even believe it's a hateful verse, anyway, so you argue against yourself. You ignore the context of the Koran as a whole, but shouldn't have that excuse now that I've given you more and more verses that show a pattern of hate towards the Jews FOR BEING JEWS; which to Moslems is to be disobedient of God.
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2006, 06:19:09 AM »

The only thing I’m justifying, to repeat myself for the umpteenth time, is the fact that there is no objective basis within the context of a Christian-Muslim/non-Christian dialogue/debate to bring this verse up as an example of “Islamic hatred”; it is a position we as Christians can subjectively adopt upon the basis of the presupposition that the Qur’an was not authored by God. In order to prove to the Muslim that this verse is one of hate, you would have to prove to them that the Qur’an is not authored by God. If you use this verse however, as evidence that the god of the Qur'an is not the true God you have begged the question.
No I don't. I am not arguing against Moslems, I've stated this. I'm demonstrating to Christians that the Koran has hateful verses. That's a start. I don't have to prove or argue about the objective nature of God.

Even if I were to argue to a Moslem, all I need to do is show that the verses are targeting one group based on the fact that they do no more but be themselves. And this too I have done. I note here your insistence on trying to start other debates, or concentrating on a single verse -v- another single verse, taking out of context the raft of verses in the Koran directed in against the Jews, simply for being Jewish AND still managing to compare two verses that aren't comparable.

They aren't because
a) you recognise that the Biblical one's not hateful
b) you recognise it's from God
and
c) (something you won't recognise) is that one is an inwards condemnation of some Jews for being disobedient to God (thus it's not hate for inherently being Jewish), the other is an outwards condemnation of Jews for being Jews.
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2006, 07:27:22 AM »

Quote
Given you've now renounced debate and content on name calling you've shown your true colours.

Three Paragraphs removed.  Please keep content substantive, not personal.
Quote
Given that this is a Christian forum where we all agree that the Koran's not of God.

So what? I am addressing the issue of the applicability of these verses in objective polemics i.e. whether or not one can use them to invalidate Islam before an Islamic, or a generally non-Christian audience. You do not make the rules regarding what points I can and cannot make, even if you are the starter of the relevant thread. If you’re not interested in the particular point I have made, then you don’t have to respond to it. You certainly don’t have the right to misrepresent it however.

Quote
Given that the verses contained therein are not of the same ilk as that in the Bible; considering one is inward criticism, and the other is not.

This has already been debunked. Both verses claim that the God of the Jews is criticising the Jews. The Jews are not criticising themselves; there is no inward criticism. From my previous post:

NO. The Jews are not speaking about themselves! READ THE VERSE. The subject of the verse is speaking in the first person:

"Children have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me."

And:

all you’re doing is blindly denying or at the very least casting doubt upon the perfectly clear and obvious implication of the verse, without any basis. I have given you the evidence; that evidence is in the immediate context of the verses in question where Isaiah explicitly introduces those very verses as the Lord’s speech.

2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
 ÃƒÆ’‚  for the LORD has spoken:
"Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me.
3The ox knows its owner,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  my people do not understand."

Every scholarly translation of this passage ends verse 2 with a semicolon, to indicate the fact that what immediately follows, is the content of that which the Lord has spoken. Most other scholarly translations go even further by putting the passage in question around speech marks to indicate that Isaiah is in fact quoting the Lord’s speech as he has heard them.


Who was it that reared up the nation of Israel? Who was it that the nation of Israel rebelled against? GOD.


Quote
I am not here to argue that the Koran is not from God

I never said you had to, here; I simply said that IF one wishes to use the verses in question against Muslims in a debate with a Muslim or any non-Christian in general, they would have to prove that the Qur’an is not from God, since the very proposition that the Qur’an is not from God is central to the argument that the Qur’anic verses in question are hate verses, and that proposition cannot be presupposed else one begs the question.

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I am here to argue that the Koran is full of hateful verses.

Good for you! And I am here to make the point that we can’t argue along these lines within an objective polemical context. So we are making two different points, yet you insist to take the points I have made personally; you must be insecure about something.

Quote
But you just repeating this ad infinitum doesn't say so. I've already pointed out the inward critique -v- outward slanging dichotomy.

No, you have merely claimed that. You have proven NOTHING. I have proven my proposition that the verses are equal in principle i.e. that they both allege that God (i.e. the God of the Jews, Arabs, and all creation) is the one condemning the Jews. Would you like me to paste that proof which you have refused for the third time now to address? Here it is:

NO. The Jews are not speaking about themselves! READ THE VERSE. The subject of the verse is speaking in the first person:

"Children have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me."

And:

all you’re doing is blindly denying or at the very least casting doubt upon the perfectly clear and obvious implication of the verse, without any basis. I have given you the evidence; that evidence is in the immediate context of the verses in question where Isaiah explicitly introduces those very verses as the Lord’s speech.

2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
 ÃƒÆ’‚  for the LORD has spoken:
"Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me.
3The ox knows its owner,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  my people do not understand."

Every scholarly translation of this passage ends verse 2 with a semicolon, to indicate the fact that what immediately follows, is the content of that which the Lord has spoken. Most other scholarly translations go even further by putting the passage in question around speech marks to indicate that Isaiah is in fact quoting the Lord’s speech as he has heard them.


Quote
Given also on another thread you had a problem defining 'an orthodox church' with 'the Orthodox Church'

Thank you for bringing this up; yet another example of your inability to be objective. It’s a rare occasion when the maimed victim offers his opponent ammunition to finish off the job, but thank you for offering me this opportunity nonetheless. ÂÂ For people who would like to see how that one went, I encourage them to read the exchange for themselves over here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8428.msg112220#msg112220

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So again a Jews calling on Jews

God calling the Jews; listen to me habibi. God….calling….the….Jews. G….O….D….GOD…..God, God, God, God…

The proof for you once again:

NO. The Jews are not speaking about themselves! READ THE VERSE. The subject of the verse is speaking in the first person:

"Children have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me."

And:

all you’re doing is blindly denying or at the very least casting doubt upon the perfectly clear and obvious implication of the verse, without any basis. I have given you the evidence; that evidence is in the immediate context of the verses in question where Isaiah explicitly introduces those very verses as the Lord’s speech.

2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
 ÃƒÆ’‚  for the LORD has spoken:
"Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me.
3The ox knows its owner,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  my people do not understand."

Every scholarly translation of this passage ends verse 2 with a semicolon, to indicate the fact that what immediately follows, is the content of that which the Lord has spoken. Most other scholarly translations go even further by putting the passage in question around speech marks to indicate that Isaiah is in fact quoting the Lord’s speech as he has heard them.


Quote
For simplicity's sake I did but state a few examples.
Quote
Here is more

You’re not proving anything relevant to the arguments at hand. You’re simply employing more verses to act as red herrings; diversionary tactics to avoid dealing with the fact that the specific verse in question is not condemnable in principle but only condemnable within the Qur’anic context and only upon the presupposition that only a Christian accepts. I don’t care what other verses say; I know the Qur’an like the back of my hand. I am interested in the specific verse that I have decided to comment on. I have not made any general statements with respect to Islam’s position on Jews. I have only made specific statements with respect to the specific verse in question in order to make a very specific point which is primarily concerned with the question of valid polemics.

You can continue pasting as much verses as you want, but you’re wasting your time; enjoy.

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No I don't. I am not arguing against Moslems, I've stated this.

I am not saying that YOU are arguing against Muslims. In fact, my point has nothing to do with you personally. My point is very general: One (ANYONE!) cannot use the Qur'anic verses in question against Muslims in an objective polemical context. You decide to take it personally because you feel you have something to prove to the world.

Quote
I'm demonstrating to Christians that the Koran has hateful verses. That's a start.

Good for you! And I am demonstrating to Christians that they cannot objectively prove to Muslims or other non-Christians that the verses in question are hateful, unless they are also prepared to prove that the Qur’an is not of God i.e. unless they are prepared to prove the central proposition upon which this conclusion hangs.

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Even if I were to argue to a Moslem, all I need to do is show that the verses are targeting one group based on the fact that they do no more but be themselves.

I have not addressed other verses. I am speaking of those specific verses that I quoted in my initial response which condemns Jews for their alleged ignorance of God. The point I am making in relation to that one verse is of vital interest to me because objective inter-faith or inter-denominational dialogue is an issue of significance to me. It may not interest or be of any significance to you, but then again, no one forced you to respond to me.

Quote
concentrating on a single verse -v- another single verse, taking out of context the raft of verses in the Koran

Since I am making no general point with respect to the general position of the Qur’an regarding the Jews, other Qur’anic verses relating to the Jews do not need to be accounted for by me; they are irrelevant to the basic point I am making.

Quote
Even if you did, it would not negate the Koranic verses at all. All it would mean is that the Koran is full of hate, and you've found hateful verses somewhere else.

No, that would be your conclusion if you wish to insist that the principle of condemning a particular group for their ignorance per se, ÂÂ is hateful. Just as I don’t think calling a stupid person stupid, is hateful or name-calling per se, likewise I don’t think likening someone to a donkey based on their ignorance is hateful or name-calling per se. Such accusations may simply indeed be worthy and warranted — a thing to be determined by the context. If the One True God called the Jews stupid for not being loyal to Him, then He has every right to, since that loyalty is due to Him. If an imposter called the Jews stupid for not being loyal to him, then that is a different story, since the Jews are not obliged to be loyal to a fake.

Quote
Conversely, a proper comparison to the Jewish verse you quote would be if in the Koran there's a verse saying something like "Oh you Arabs who have heard the word of God and have turned your back upon Him, you are like donkeys".

Arabs are just as much the creation of God as the Jews and the Asians and the Africans etc. ÂÂ All races are expected to be loyal to God if He calls upon them, and thus all are equally worthy of condemnation if they refuse to take heed to Him. It’s as simple as that: God has the right to condemn any of His creation. Assuming for arguments sake that the Islamic god were the true God, then he would have every right to have uttered the Qur’anic verses in question. However, as I have repeated a million times, it is by virtue of the fact that the Islamic god is a false god, that this verse falls, and not upon any other basis.

Quote
c) (something you won't recognise) is that one is an inwards condemnation of some Jews for being disobedient to God (thus it's not hate for inherently being Jewish), the other is an outwards condemnation of Jews for being Jews.

I repeat my above response:

Both verses claim that the God of the Jews is criticising the Jews. The Jews are not criticising themselves; there is no inward criticism. From my previous post:

NO. The Jews are not speaking about themselves! READ THE VERSE. The subject of the verse is speaking in the first person:

"Children have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me."

And:

all you’re doing is blindly denying or at the very least casting doubt upon the perfectly clear and obvious implication of the verse, without any basis. I have given you the evidence; that evidence is in the immediate context of the verses in question where Isaiah explicitly introduces those very verses as the Lord’s speech.

2Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth;
 ÃƒÆ’‚  for the LORD has spoken:
"Children[a] have I reared and brought up,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  but they have rebelled against me.
3The ox knows its owner,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  and the donkey its master's crib,
but Israel does not know,
 ÃƒÆ’‚  my people do not understand."

Every scholarly translation of this passage ends verse 2 with a semicolon, to indicate the fact that what immediately follows, is the content of that which the Lord has spoken. Most other scholarly translations go even further by putting the passage in question around speech marks to indicate that Isaiah is in fact quoting the Lord’s speech as he has heard them.


Who was it that reared up the nation of Israel? Who was it that the nation of Israel rebelled against? GOD.


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You say you are not an Islamic apologist, then don't give an apology for Islam.

You complain about being called stupid, then don’t repeat the stupidity of repeatedly misunderstanding my consistently and explicitly expressed purpose and point, which relates to the applicability of a particular verse to objective polemics — not because that verse is special or better than any other verse on the subject of the Islamic perspective of the Jews, but simply because that verse perfectly conveys my central point regarding the employment of valid methodology in polemical exchanges with Muslims regarding their own book.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2006, 08:12:09 AM by SouthSerb99 » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2006, 07:39:52 AM »

montalban,

Just to emphasise your inability to properly read my arguments, I refer you back to my initial post of this thread, where I brought up the alleged incident of the transformation of the Jews into monkeys and swine, recommending that it would be a better and more valid piece of evidence to use against Muslims. Yet this very verse which I brought forth of my own initiative, is now being brought up by yourself as you ask me to address it based on the impression that it poses a problem to my actual argument, when I was the one who in fact brought it up! So is it that I need to address anything, or that you need to read my arguments more carefully to see that I am clearly not defending the general Qur'anic position on the Jews, but am rather cautioning people with respect to employing one specific passage regarding the likening of the Jews to donkeys in a polemical dialogue/debate? That is a rhetorical question by the way.
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2006, 08:53:56 AM »

montalban,

Just to emphasise your inability to properly read my arguments, I refer you back to my initial post of this thread, where I brought up the alleged incident of the transformation of the Jews into monkeys and swine, recommending that it would be a better and more valid piece of evidence to use against Muslims.
Just to emphasise your inability to understand your own argument this verse is no more 'valid' than the one about 'donkeys' according to the very pointless argument you make about that verse. For some strange reason we have two verses insulting the Jews, calling them an animal, but the one I cite is less valid than the one you first cite!
They're both insulting.

Yet this very verse which I brought forth of my own initiative, is now being brought up by yourself as you ask me to address it based on the impression that it poses a problem to my actual argument, when I was the one who in fact brought it up! So is it that I need to address anything, or that you need to read my arguments more carefully to see that I am clearly not defending the general Qur'anic position on the Jews, but am rather cautioning people with respect to employing one specific passage regarding the likening of the Jews to donkeys in a polemical dialogue/debate? That is a rhetorical question by the way.
This begs the question of how it is more valid. (Considering for a moment that I were you and apply your own argument that Moslems still think it's from their god.) But let's get back to the fact you claim the Jewish verse is not an 'inwards' call because it's from God, which leads you back now to arguing that God's calling the Jews donkeys, which you also don't want to say means that he's hateful of the Jews, which invalidates your attempts to compare it.

So you want to say a verse in the OT is by God but not hateful is the same as a verse in the Koran that is hateful. You want to argue that it's not because to the Moslems it's also from god, even though it's against the Jews for being Jews. It's still not like the OT verse which is not against the Jews per se.

I think your tactics here is simply to keep going until you have the last say, and trying insults to upset the rhythm of the thread when you're frustrated by trying so many arguments at once.

But hey, you've still addressed the huge raft of verses directed against the Jews, simply for being Jews.

Where are we up to now.
You argue
An OT verse (that is, from within the Jewish faith) calling SOME Jews donkeys for departing the way of God is the same as a verse in the Koran (that is, within the Islamic faith) that insults ALL Jews for being Jews.

And you say this is invalid BUT one in the Koran calling them something else is MORE VALID! Even though that's just calling them a different animal, and it's still from outside the Jewish faith and calling them that insult simply for being Jewish.

I like the way you think. Very original.

You take umbrage because you think you've beaten me to the punch in citing a verse from the Koran that insults the Jews. For what reason? Simply because you cited it first? No, because it is 'more valid' for something that make no sense... seeing as it's still insulting the Jews. Or, do they cancel each other out, when you find a OT verse that mentions donkeys and the Koran also has one that mentions donkeys; in which case that still doesn't negate either
a) all the other Koranic verses I cited
or
b) that the Koran insults the Jews for being Jews.

Do you think that the verses in the Koran about the Jews, (targeting the Jews are for being Jews) are hateful?

Let's stick to this debate instead of going on about validating concepts of God.

And you've still yet to show how this invalidates my OP that the Koran is full of hate. At best you can say The Koran contains some verses that are matched by ones in the Bible. Still, what pro-Koranic argument will you come up with next to show that the Koran is as tolerant as the Bible. Evidently the multitude of verses in the Koran aren't hateful at all, despite them targeting Jews for being Jews.
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