Author Topic: Orthodoxy and sex!  (Read 5888 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,891
  • I'm an alpaca, actually
    • A conservative blog for peace
Orthodoxy and sex!
« on: October 15, 2002, 09:47:32 AM »
I'm sure that subject heading got your attention!

Justin summed up St John Chrysostom thus:

Quote
However, for Chrysostom the main two points of relations between couples was 1. producing children, and 2. preventing lust.

All true ù but how cold and one-sided! How negative! As if the only positive aspect of sex was baby-making! What about the naturally infertile? What about the post-menopausal? The procreative aspect is temporal, but the unitive aspect is universal.

Some may call me a modernist for this, which is OK since I know and God knows I'm not, and some may think I sound adolescent and sappy here, and that's OK too, but what about love, the unitive, relationship-cementing aspect of it?

Don't get me wrong - dodging the obvious procreative purpose of it is one of the Big Lies of modernity. (The contraceptive mentality that is part of the Culture of Death.) But I hope you all see my point too.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog

Dmitri Rostovski

  • Guest
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2002, 09:59:08 AM »
But isn't the only purpose for sex baby-making?  Other than that, no offense, but what good does it really do?  Wasn't the pleasure factor God's way of encouraging procreation?  If so, isn't to use it otherwise an offense to His creation?  Or, am I being to zealous?  Probably...

Dmitri

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,427
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2002, 10:06:59 AM »
Other than that, no offense, but what good does it really do?  

Don't knock it till you try it...and I'm not speaking from personal experience.   :)

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,891
  • I'm an alpaca, actually
    • A conservative blog for peace
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2002, 10:07:00 AM »
According to your logic, Dmitri - and there is a logic to what you wrote - sterile and post-menopause-age couples mustn't have sex, which AFAIK is not what the Church teaches, so what I wrote stands.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline Asteriktos

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 33,375
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2002, 12:29:21 PM »
Serge, I wrote a post, not a 3-volume study ;)  The material on Chrysostom in my post was meant as a counter to the normal literature printed today about Chrysostom which is of the opposite extreme, and makes Chrysostom sound like a 21st century American who is pro-contraception, pro-have-sex-whenever-you-want-we-won't ask-about-it, and a number of other things. I agree that Chrysostom makes exceptions for couples who might not be the typical case, e.g., infertile, older couples, etc., (and the canons never disallowed sex in such cases, even for Priests, as far as I know) and I agree that my post sounded cold by modern standards. It certainly wasn't John Mack! :)  (nothing meant against Father John, I enjoy his writing and he's willing to talk online as well, but he's certainly less "cold"). I also agree with the idea that love is a unitive force; but within the scope of love, sex is but one aspect (maybe 5%). It's hard arguing persuasively that Chrysostom put as high a value as we do on sexual relations uniting a couple as an experience in itself, I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't find more than 1 or 2 other Fathers who'd even come close to that. We need to be careful what we say on this issue, because while I agree in principle, the Fathers seemed to not say much on it. We need to figure out why that was.

Justin

PS. Serge, do you realise when you called what I said "negative" you also labeled 75% or more of the early Fathers as "negative? ;)

PSS. If I would have written more, I'm sure I wouldn't have sounded so "negative"... if only to avoid my fiancee being royally mad at me, hehe.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2002, 12:33:14 PM by Paradosis »
"I have been called bad before. Many have said I do things that are not, correct to do. I don't believe in such talk as this. I am nice man, with happy feelings, all of the time!"

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,891
  • I'm an alpaca, actually
    • A conservative blog for peace
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2002, 12:40:42 PM »
OK, Justin, I understand what you're getting at. Too often modern Orthodox writers and speakers in America try to appear 'with it' by being indistinguishable from liberal Protestantism on this issue (contraception), which makes another thread's assertion that secularized Greek-Americans are keen on union with Rome particularly laughable, considering Rome's holding the patristic view on the issue.

P.S. I never said your Chrysostom summary or the Fathers you claim to represent were wrong per se. Just 'negative' and 'one-sided', which is legit criticism that is still orthodox. Even the Fathers weren't perfect. Only the Church as such is infallible.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline Anastasios

  • Webdespota
  • Administrator
  • Merarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,508
  • Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina
    • AnastasiosHudson.com
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2002, 12:03:05 AM »
Dear In Christ,

Being quite busy myself, I haven't had time to read through all the posts.  I'd like to comment to Dmitri directly though.

Friend, sex is wonderful and not just for the physical sensation.  It brings people together in a way that is just not possible by other means.  When my wife and I are mad and we make up and one thing leads to another, I am amazed at how sex restores a balance in a relationship.  It is a healthy way to recreate and restore a bond.  Chemicals go to work in the brain, etc.

I don't think sex should be separated from openness to procreation, but I don't think that one should suggest that there is nothing good about sex.

In Christ,

anastasios
Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Robert

  • "Amazing"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,442
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2002, 12:11:23 AM »
The notion that sex is only/entirely for procreation is one of the downfalls of the Scholastic system of Philosophy.

Being well educated in St. Thomas Aquinas, his writings, especially his summa, I can tell you that he views sex, and other relations in a very extremely uber-conservative aspect.

Of course, once one examines the scholastic system, one realizes why St. Thomas proposed such limits on sex.


Bobby

Offline Asteriktos

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 33,375
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2002, 12:48:52 AM »
I apologize for the one-sidedness of my posts. Certainly there is more to be thought of than what I said, and my posts were misleading.  :)
"I have been called bad before. Many have said I do things that are not, correct to do. I don't believe in such talk as this. I am nice man, with happy feelings, all of the time!"

Dmitri Rostovski

  • Guest
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2002, 09:48:10 AM »
Oh, please don't misunderstand me.   I fully recognize the benefits of the sexual bond within Marriage and the restorative properties it can have, but is it necessary?  Or, is it a physical maifestation of tension release therefor a misuse of its purpose?  I don't feel that St. Thomas Aquinas can be blamed for all of this idea either.  St. Gregory of Sinai for instance writes that passions lead to distraction from Theosis.   Since even in marriage we are to seek the Divine, might sexual behavior outside of procreation lead us to this distraction?

Of course, St. Gregory was a monk.  Perhaps I've been reading the Philokalia too much.  Just some thoughts...

Dmitri


Offline Asteriktos

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 33,375
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2002, 12:48:04 PM »
I think a disctinction needs to be made between what monastics sometimes say, and what secular Fathers say. The monks are usually talking about leading the perfect, perfectly christocentric, life, and not things being "good" and "bad" in the way we would think of "good" and "bad". To a monastic, anything that takes away your mind from the contemplation of (or interaction with) God is a lesser good. Marriage itself then, according to some Fathers, is "despised" by Virgins and Monks. Why? Not because it is sinful in itself (numerous Church canons condemn the belief that marriage is sinful), but just because it is a lesser good. Monasticism and virginity are the higher callings, and as Saint Paul points out, allow us to fully focus on God, while in marriage we have a responsibility to worry about earthly affairs. In that way, monks can speak of many things as being things to avoid, while the same things aren't necessarily avoided by those of us living in the world.

I think you're correct, Dmitri, in saying that Aquinas wasn't the first (though I don't think that was what Bobby meant? :) )  The west in general has always taken a darker view of sexual intercourse. It was those in the west, for instance, that had the first council to instruct clergy to be celibate, and the first to propose Church-wide celibacy at an Ecumenical Council (the first Ecumenical Council -- ironically, clerical marriage was defended by the monk Paphnutius). Later, during Photius' time, when western and eastern Priests were arguing over jurisdiction in Bulgaria, one of the major charges against the eastern Priests were that they--horror of horrors!--had wives! They hoped that the celibacy of the western Priests in Bulgaria was seen to be a sign of their moral and doctrinal purity. And of course, it later became a mandatory practice for those in the Roman Rite (proper term?). Many early Fathers were--by modern American standards--closed minded, but the general thought on this issue in the west seems to have come from Augustine (Didn't Thomas Aquinas say that he wanted to be know as an Augustinian? I seem to recall that somewhere). In the east, for instance, pleasure experienced during sex wasn't considered a sin unless it was sexual conduct motivated by lust. In other words, it wasn't wrong to enjoy it if you were following the Church's guidelines. In the west this view of enjoying sex--even in a "correct" context--wasn't always approved of. Just some thoughts from what I've read; If I'm wrong on something someone please correct me!


PS. I don't mean to be attacking "the west" here in general, as is sometimes the case in Orthodox polemics, where it seems like "the west" in its entirety is worthless. I'm only trying to explain how I see things regarding this particular issue. Were we talking about christological controversies in the 6th century, I would perhaps be speaking against "the east" collectively ;)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2002, 12:53:31 PM by Paradosis »
"I have been called bad before. Many have said I do things that are not, correct to do. I don't believe in such talk as this. I am nice man, with happy feelings, all of the time!"

Offline egan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2002, 04:59:03 AM »
I'd like to contribute to this discussion as well.

I should state that I am a married woman and perhaps my viewpoint can be regarded as being biased.

Sex in marriage is not just about procreation, or lust, or the relieving of tensions.   It is a gift from God!  It can be a way of saying I love you, I am here for you, I know that you're going through a bad time  and I love you, all the world might turn against you but, in my eyes, you are superior to the whole world, you are in pain and this is my way of easing your pain, etc. etc.  The above apply to both the husband and the wife of course.

I sincerely hope that the above doesn't sound too emotional but sex in marriage is all of the above and a thousand things more.

And what happens when sex is not possible for either partner?   It doesn't matter - there are limitless ways to show your partner that he is loved.

We are human beings and sex is part of being human.

If we decide to follow another path, for example, that of  monasticism then that path will not include sex.   Celibacy will help us to attain that which we seek.    Either way is right - it depends on which path you have chosen to follow.

 Effie
NULL

Offline The young fogey

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,891
  • I'm an alpaca, actually
    • A conservative blog for peace
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2002, 08:15:57 AM »
Effie,

Yours and Dustin's are the best postings I've read on the subject, by far. Both from people who are married and speak from experience.
"You always were a historically illiterate jerk, John." - OicwR doyen Stuart Koehl

High-church libertarian
Blog

Offline SamB

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 784
  • Crates of araq for sale! *hic*
Re:Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2002, 06:44:13 PM »
No need for me to express my complete agreement with these sentiments.

Sex in its proper context is no doubt a sublime experience, and the imagery of matrimony that the Scriptures is replete with is used for no less a purpose than to describe agape itself, and God's love for the Church.

In IC XC
Samer

Offline Alpo

  • Lying Chalcedonian Liar
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,062
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2015, 12:36:50 PM »
OO polemics is getting boring. Let's talk about sex for a change.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,427
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2015, 12:42:39 PM »
OO polemics is getting boring. Let's talk about sex for a change.

For a change!

Offline Alpo

  • Lying Chalcedonian Liar
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,062
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2015, 01:13:51 PM »
Yes, it's already something like 5 minutes since we've a thread about sex. It's about time.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Asteriktos

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 33,375
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2015, 01:22:35 PM »
Ain't no one got time for this thread.
"I have been called bad before. Many have said I do things that are not, correct to do. I don't believe in such talk as this. I am nice man, with happy feelings, all of the time!"

Offline wgw

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,100
  • The above Syriac icon is of St. Athansius.
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2015, 02:30:58 PM »
The Song of Solomon itself is quite risque.  In fact, a good argument for retaining liturgical languages is for use whenever it might come up in the lectionary.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,030
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2015, 02:40:38 PM »
I was ready for some good young fogey trolling, not a walk down memory lane.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline nothing

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,745
    • CLICKBAIT
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2015, 02:56:21 PM »
I was ready for some good young fogey trolling, not a walk down memory lane.
The splash photo on his high church libertarian site never ceases to amuse with each viewing. There's a movie where a guy locks up women in the basement to relive that particular "era", I always wondered if he was the source material.
Atheists are weak because they are deaf to joy and are unable to dance.

Quote from: Porter ODoran
The cold, gemlike flame of skeptical criticism elucidates only its own color.
Quote from: William T
While the prospects of an operatic cosmic catastrophe may always be looming behind us due to our temperaments, we do tend to be around lots and lots of the opposite sex from cradle to grave.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,427
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2015, 02:59:08 PM »
I was ready for some good young fogey trolling, not a walk down memory lane.
The splash photo on his high church libertarian site never ceases to amuse with each viewing. There's a movie where a guy locks up women in the basement to relive that particular "era", I always wondered if he was the source material.

Knock it off.

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2015, 11:55:14 PM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,196
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2015, 12:01:21 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2015, 12:11:19 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

I'm guessing I got this wrong...? ;_;

I can sense the screen cap sent to Reddit or some other site already...


Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,444
  • Here's where the story ends
    • St. George Church
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2015, 12:12:30 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

You are kidding.
petfinder.com

Black hole sun, won't you come and wash away the rain

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2015, 12:17:28 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

You are kidding.

Er maybe I phrased wrong? I don't want to sound vulgar.

I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage, and how people did such acts before modern medicine.

 :'( I don't understand what's funny

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,427
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2015, 12:19:57 AM »
I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage...

Lustful acts are not OK even within marriage.

Quote
...and how people did such acts before modern medicine.

That has nothing to do with the purpose of this section. 

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,444
  • Here's where the story ends
    • St. George Church
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2015, 12:20:52 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

You are kidding.

Er maybe I phrased wrong? I don't want to sound vulgar.

I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage, and how people did such acts before modern medicine.

 :'( I don't understand what's funny

Oh, I think you do. And I don't find you funny.

You said before you have some kind of fetish thing which makes you get giggles from steering conversations over to explicit things.

If you're just bored, take a cold shower. Other people aren't necessarily interested in your fantasies or obsessions.
petfinder.com

Black hole sun, won't you come and wash away the rain

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2015, 12:23:37 AM »
I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage...

Lustful acts are not OK even within marriage.


With all due respect I am absolutely lost now, are you saying people should stay celibate unless for having kids?

Then why did that priest say he has relations with his wife sometimes?? They have kids all the time???

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2015, 12:25:40 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

You are kidding.

Er maybe I phrased wrong? I don't want to sound vulgar.

I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage, and how people did such acts before modern medicine.

 :'( I don't understand what's funny

Oh, I think you do. And I don't find you funny.

You said before you have some kind of fetish thing which makes you get giggles from steering conversations over to explicit things.

If you're just bored, take a cold shower. Other people aren't necessarily interested in your fantasies or obsessions.

I'm a minor and I was asking an honest question and you're making me feel guilty and anxious over nothing. You don't know what's going on in my life, don't judge me please.

And when did I say that????? what????
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:26:25 AM by Amatorus »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,427
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2015, 12:26:57 AM »
I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage...

Lustful acts are not OK even within marriage.


With all due respect I am absolutely lost now, are you saying people should stay celibate unless for having kids?

Then why did that priest say he has relations with his wife sometimes?? They have kids all the time???

If you don't understand the meaning of "lust", your time would be better spent studying that and not how people engaged in certain sexual acts before the advent of modern medicine.  I did not say anything you think I did. 

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,444
  • Here's where the story ends
    • St. George Church
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2015, 12:30:33 AM »
I'm a minor and I was asking an honest question and you're making me feel guilty and anxious over nothing. You don't know what's going on in my life, don't judge me please.

And when did I say that????? what????

A while ago. And you, as a minor, should be especially wary of the things you've just said.

Nobody's making you feel guilty and anxious but you. You know what Orthodox teaching is on sexuality. Why bother with these silly posts, unless you get some kind of thrill out of it?

You are a minor, and yet you want to talk about explicit things, and you blame others for embarrassing you.

Who is making you type what you type?

 ::)
petfinder.com

Black hole sun, won't you come and wash away the rain

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2015, 12:30:45 AM »
I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage...

Lustful acts are not OK even within marriage.


With all due respect I am absolutely lost now, are you saying people should stay celibate unless for having kids?

Then why did that priest say he has relations with his wife sometimes?? They have kids all the time???

If you don't understand the meaning of "lust", your time would be better spent studying that and not how people engaged in certain sexual acts before the advent of modern medicine.  I did not say anything you think I did.

I'm not even going to say anything more because it seems like human  nature never changes and everyone always suspects the worst of everyone. If my wording was ever odd it's because it was incredibly embarrassing and my writing is not yet eloquent. Now I understand those warnings in signatures.

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2015, 12:33:46 AM »
I'm a minor and I was asking an honest question and you're making me feel guilty and anxious over nothing. You don't know what's going on in my life, don't judge me please.

And when did I say that????? what????

A while ago. And you, as a minor, should be especially wary of the things you've just said.

Nobody's making you feel guilty and anxious but you. You know what Orthodox teaching is on sexuality. Why bother with these silly posts, unless you get some kind of thrill out of it?

You are a minor, and yet you want to talk about explicit things, and you blame others for embarrassing you.

Who is making you type what you type?

 ::)

I don't know actually. I live far from any church and my life is horrible and too busy. Why do you have to assume anything? Do you know how that makes me feel? Especially a poster of your reputation and post count I would expect a Christlike reaction from.

Believe it or not I have the curse of growing up in a very polluted and confusing Era and area. I don't have the pleasure of being taught the truth on anything. I don't even want to know now. I'm sick of feeling threatened by everything and getting panic attacks. I'm going to take that shower now, and not out of some sick fixation but I've had enough to feel depressed and sick over today and this isn't helping. I don't know even what I'm saying anymore.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:35:52 AM by Amatorus »

Offline biro

  • Excelsior
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,444
  • Here's where the story ends
    • St. George Church
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2015, 12:36:22 AM »
I didn't assume anything. I've been reading your posts since you got here.

Anyway, you're going to have to deal with life sooner or later. The wider world is a lot worse than anything you're going to read in this thread.

petfinder.com

Black hole sun, won't you come and wash away the rain

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • The Fourteenth Apostle and Judge of the Interwebs
  • Moderator
  • Protostrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26,427
  • This dog's body intentionally left blank
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Czech Lands
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2015, 12:36:28 AM »
I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage...

Lustful acts are not OK even within marriage.


With all due respect I am absolutely lost now, are you saying people should stay celibate unless for having kids?

Then why did that priest say he has relations with his wife sometimes?? They have kids all the time???

If you don't understand the meaning of "lust", your time would be better spent studying that and not how people engaged in certain sexual acts before the advent of modern medicine.  I did not say anything you think I did.

I'm not even going to say anything more because it seems like human  nature never changes and everyone always suspects the worst of everyone. If my wording was ever odd it's because it was incredibly embarrassing and my writing is not yet eloquent. Now I understand those warnings in signatures.

You don't have to be eloquent.  But you seem to think "lust" and "sex" are the same thing, and they are not.  If you don't understand that, your time would be better spent on learning the difference (as well as other basics). 

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2015, 12:42:14 AM »
I didn't assume anything. I've been reading your posts since you got here.

Anyway, you're going to have to deal with life sooner or later. The wider world is a lot worse than anything you're going to read in this thread.

I know and I am scared of it so much. You have no idea. There's so much I am not prepared for and the thought makes me sick to my stomach.

You want to know the real reason for my questions before? I had a long distance relationship a couple of times before and both girls pressured me a lot to do things I would not. They made me feel horrible and anxious and pressured . I get tempted to look for loopholes. I have not done anything yet but if by some miracle I find someone I end up with IRL, I don't know what I am supposed to do. My parents were not chaste exactly, that much I know. They made mistakes. It seems like everyone in my world is degenerate.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:44:02 AM by Amatorus »

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2015, 12:48:11 AM »
I'm asking if, lustful acts that are not conception are OK before marriage...

Lustful acts are not OK even within marriage.


With all due respect I am absolutely lost now, are you saying people should stay celibate unless for having kids?

Then why did that priest say he has relations with his wife sometimes?? They have kids all the time???

If you don't understand the meaning of "lust", your time would be better spent studying that and not how people engaged in certain sexual acts before the advent of modern medicine.  I did not say anything you think I did.

I'm not even going to say anything more because it seems like human  nature never changes and everyone always suspects the worst of everyone. If my wording was ever odd it's because it was incredibly embarrassing and my writing is not yet eloquent. Now I understand those warnings in signatures.

You don't have to be eloquent.  But you seem to think "lust" and "sex" are the same thing, and they are not.  If you don't understand that, your time would be better spent on learning the difference (as well as other basics).

My signature is accurate, what can I say...curiosity and laziness produces the most depressing and anxiety - inducing results. I wish I could turn back time.

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2015, 12:56:07 AM »
Mor Ephrem, please delete my posts in this thread if you can. I feel ill and I really need to learn to proofread because everything I type is an abomination and I don't want to be reminded of my many, many mistakes like this. Especially my life story. I'm sorry.

Offline Asteriktos

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 33,375
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2015, 03:02:03 AM »
Close. Keep working on it. Though some of your other characters seem to hit closer to authentic to me.
"I have been called bad before. Many have said I do things that are not, correct to do. I don't believe in such talk as this. I am nice man, with happy feelings, all of the time!"

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Aujourd'hui, maman est morte. Ou peut-être hier, je ne sais pas.
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,065
  • A Communist who doesn´t believe in Communism...
  • Faith: Strong Atheist
  • Jurisdiction: Philosophical Positions Below Signature
Orthodox and sex? Not so much...
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2015, 06:42:27 AM »
I care more about "Orthodoxy & Dating" or "Orthodoxy & Relationships" than Orthodoxy and sex. How do we get the message across about what the Church requires of us, to the people who we are seeing without being offensive? How does Orthodoxy affect our relationships to the non-Orthodox we see? How to be discreet when you're trying to a) get a mate and b) be faithful to Christ and the Church.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 06:44:11 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
My Philosophical Positions:

-Marxism, Anarchism, Communism

-Empiricism, Rationalism, Analytic Philosophy, Naturalism

-Humanism, Existentialism, Altruism

Offline Amatorus

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2015, 11:27:06 AM »
Close. Keep working on it. Though some of your other characters seem to hit closer to authentic to me.

How Pharasaic of you to accuse me like that

Offline LenInSebastopol

  • Dimly Illumined
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,872
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2015, 08:08:36 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

I'm guessing I got this wrong...? ;_;

I can sense the screen cap sent to Reddit or some other site already...

Naa, you did't get the question or subject wrong. It's just some of us are immature and nervous about parts of life.
What you did get wrong are definitions. What you described is not fornication. Words DO have meaning.
Oh, and what you did described is one from of lust.

Someone else here mentioned folks may lust in marriage; might be true, but when one desires their wife/husband, is that lust? Is chasing the other spouse around the house, laughing and giggling lust?
I think not.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 08:10:22 AM by LenInSebastopol »
Mark 14:36
God is with us, understand O' ye nations, and submit yourselves, for God is with us

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Humble Servant and Spokesperson of the Fourteenth Apostle
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,017
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Orthodoxy and sex!
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2015, 11:22:07 AM »
I don't understand the Church's teaching....

This kind of relation is OK only if you are married, but it's ok to do it for fun not just having kids?

Excuse the vulgar image, but how did people in the ....early days before birth control do this? Did they just rely on non-penetration? Because I recall Tertullian or some Church father wrote that a woman, uh, swallowing seed was seen equivalent to cannibalism as it was thought "seed" was literally a human seed that just grew inside the female belly.

Side question, does the aforementioned activity count as fornication before marriage?  :-[ I swear I am asking out of pure curiosity.
In the event that you are being serious, here is a serious answer.

Sexual activity outside of marriage is forbidden. That includes oral, touching, and genital contact of just about any kind. If you are married, sex is an expression of love. This means if you are horned up when you get home from work, you don't just go demand your wife service you so you can get off. Sex is not merely for procreation, but your spouse is not a blowup doll that you can use to try out weird fetishes on.

As for pre-modern birth control, that is probably something you can google and get tons of info on it. Coitus interruptus was probably the most popular, but barrier methods and infanticide were also used. I'll just leave it at that.
Quote from: King Olav Tryggvasson
I order you and all your subjects to be baptized. If you refuse, I'll have you killed on the spot and I swear I will ravage every island with fire and steel.