OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 20, 2014, 06:55:20 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Confession before Communion  (Read 19182 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2011, 01:16:17 AM »

No Animosity, just stating my thoughts and experiences..... Grin

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 01:23:13 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2011, 02:49:26 AM »

I am uncomfortable when people insist that the Faithful must Confess before Communing because we are talking about two Mysteria which each stand alone. Communing is not a "right" as though the Faithful have some sort of "Bill of Rights" of which Communing is one. And no one and nothing -not even Confession- can make us "worthy" of Communion. We can only ask that God "count us worthy" of it, that is, we ask that, in His mercy, He would treat us as though we were worthy even though we are not. Confession is the witnessed acknowledgement and Repentance of our sins before Christ, and the opportunity for the Church to apply medicine to our souls which are ailing from our sins, and part of that healing is humility, and as such, it is not for us to decide for ourselves when and if we are ready to approach for Communion, but rather, our Spiritual Father's judgement should be sought on this matter. If we think we are worthy to Commune, then we most definitely are not ready to approach the Chalice. So rather than the two Mysteries of Repentance and Communion being inextricable linked to one another with statements such as "one must Confess before each Communion" which can lead to the plani or prelest of believing that we have somehow "earned the right" to Commune by Confessing, we should keep them separate, and rather speak of seeking our Spiritual Father's blessing to Commune (which, for most lay people, occurs in the context of Confession).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 02:49:39 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,646


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2011, 03:24:55 AM »

No Animosity, just stating my thoughts and experiences..... Grin

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?
Your words betray you.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2011, 04:11:20 AM »

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin

But this 1 confession : 1 communion practice is not universal even among the "cradle" Orthodox.


The Kollyvades movement and their desire to introduce frequent communion caused uproar and division on the Holy Mountain.  It was so disruptive that several Patriarchs tried to intervene and pour oil on troubled waters.

For example there is this from Patriarch Theodosius II to the Athonite monks in about 1770:

"He wrote to the monks of Athos saying that the early Christians
received Holy Communion every Sunday, while those of the subsequent
period received it every forty days, after penance; he advised
that whoever felt himself prepared should follow the former, whereas
if he did not he should follow the latter."

http://www.synodinresistance.org/pdfs/2008/11/29/20081129bMannafromAthos.pdf


Patriarch Theodosios advises those who receive Communion every 40 days that it has to be after penance, i.e., confession.

Presumably he also intends those who commune weekly to confess weekly? That part is not clear to me.

Logged
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2011, 04:36:02 AM »

Do we know what the pre-Nicene practice was, or even the pre-Slavic practice?
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2011, 08:32:13 AM »

The pre-Nicene practise was that the faithful were given Eucharist and brought them back home so that they could took it every day. They confessed sins in front of the whole congregation although IDK how often.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,328


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2011, 08:39:24 AM »

Our parish is much like yours:  One priest, lots of people - and every Sunday and Feasts.  We are required to go to confession at least once a quarter and not to receive communion if there is something between ourselves and our brother or sister.  We are to go and settle it with our brother or sister first, go to confession and then go to communion.  I have heard that 'grievous' sin needs to be confessed before communion, as well.  . . .though I'm not really sure what grievous sin is as apposed to lesser sins.  I didn't think the Orthodox held mortal vs venial sins like the RC does. 
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,091


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2011, 08:42:55 AM »

Confession (when it was public) was originally only for those sins that would separate one from communion with the Church.

On the subject:

I won't disparage the entire population within Orthodoxy that practices a 1:1 Confession:Communion ratio.  However, I would consider it heresy if one were to assert as a dogmatic principle that one must confess each and every time one wishes to commune.  Reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is dependent only on Baptism and Chrismation and no other sacraments.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,646


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2011, 09:28:34 AM »

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin

But this 1 confession : 1 communion practice is not universal even among the "cradle" Orthodox.


The Kollyvades movement and their desire to introduce frequent communion caused uproar and division on the Holy Mountain.  It was so disruptive that several Patriarchs tried to intervene and pour oil on troubled waters.

For example there is this from Patriarch Theodosius II to the Athonite monks in about 1770:

"He wrote to the monks of Athos saying that the early Christians
received Holy Communion every Sunday, while those of the subsequent
period received it every forty days, after penance; he advised
that whoever felt himself prepared should follow the former, whereas
if he did not he should follow the latter."

http://www.synodinresistance.org/pdfs/2008/11/29/20081129bMannafromAthos.pdf


Patriarch Theodosios advises those who receive Communion every 40 days that it has to be after penance, i.e., confession.

Presumably he also intends those who commune weekly to confess weekly?
Why do you presume that?
Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2011, 10:22:56 AM »

From what I can tell, there are two issues that determine the practice: 1) How prepared is the communicant, and 2) how seriously does the priest take his responsibility for a person's soul.  I have dealt with two extremes here.  All of the priests that I have discussed the matter with agree that a person must be prepared for communion or else the communion can be taken to his / her damnation rather than blessing.  The divergence seems to come with No. 2.  One priest told me that it is the individual Christian's responsibility to follow the rules and be prepared when he / she comes up to take the sacrament.  He would only deny them communion if he had knowledge of a sin that would make them in danger of communing wrongly.  Two other priests have told me that they believe that they have a responsibility to be as sure as they can be that they are giving the individual a blessing and not a poison.  The best way to do this is confession.  Even though both of these priest were nominally "one confession - one communion", they would not require a confession if you had recently confessed and they knew you well enough to know that if your concience was burdened, you would either not commune or you would confess.  Another thing, the first priest was a strong believer in frequent communion and in fact incouraged it.  The latter two priests believe that a person should commune as often as they are prepared to do so by prayer and fasting.  One of the later priests said that it was the Church's policy that if one had not communed for 40 days, they were to be excommunicated (not considered to be in good standing as a voting member of the parish).  They were still Christian, however, and would just need to confess prior to communing again.  So, I have seen a bit of difference in practice.  I don't agree with all of them, but I find them at least logical.


Confession (when it was public) was originally only for those sins that would separate one from communion with the Church.

On the subject:

I won't disparage the entire population within Orthodoxy that practices a 1:1 Confession:Communion ratio.  However, I would consider it heresy if one were to assert as a dogmatic principle that one must confess each and every time one wishes to commune.  Reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is dependent only on Baptism and Chrismation and no other sacraments.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2011, 10:23:23 AM »

Confession (when it was public) was originally only for those sins that would separate one from communion with the Church.

On the subject:

I won't disparage the entire population within Orthodoxy that practices a 1:1 Confession:Communion ratio.  However, I would consider it heresy if one were to assert as a dogmatic principle that one must confess each and every time one wishes to commune.  Reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is dependent only on Baptism and Chrismation and no other sacraments.

Then what are your thoughts on the practices of certain jurisdictions (or maybe just priests within those jurisdictions) who demand a 1:1 ratio?

Here in Russia, for instance, the priests will even ask you when you approach if you have confessed, and if not, you will be refused. This has happened to my wife both here and at a ROCOR church in the states, and additionally, she approached once here and was asked if she had confessed, which she had, then if she had fasted, which she had not, and she was also denied. She now always does both if she intends to receive, and is always asked. In contrast, she has never been asked these things at OCA.

I, as a catechumen, have never gone up, so I have no personal experience, but I'm really curious what all of these things mean...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 10:28:56 AM by JimCBrooklyn » Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,091


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2011, 11:44:30 AM »

Confession (when it was public) was originally only for those sins that would separate one from communion with the Church.

On the subject:

I won't disparage the entire population within Orthodoxy that practices a 1:1 Confession:Communion ratio.  However, I would consider it heresy if one were to assert as a dogmatic principle that one must confess each and every time one wishes to commune.  Reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is dependent only on Baptism and Chrismation and no other sacraments.

Then what are your thoughts on the practices of certain jurisdictions (or maybe just priests within those jurisdictions) who demand a 1:1 ratio?

Here in Russia, for instance, the priests will even ask you when you approach if you have confessed, and if not, you will be refused. This has happened to my wife both here and at a ROCOR church in the states, and additionally, she approached once here and was asked if she had confessed, which she had, then if she had fasted, which she had not, and she was also denied. She now always does both if she intends to receive, and is always asked. In contrast, she has never been asked these things at OCA.

I, as a catechumen, have never gone up, so I have no personal experience, but I'm really curious what all of these things mean...

That is the long-standing practice of the Patriarchate of Moscow which is expected of everyone within the jurisdiction, but they don't hold it up as a dogmatic principle, otherwise they would have broken communion with the Churches that don't practice 1:1 a long time ago.  Btw: it's a double-standard; the priests are not required to confess each time they commune.

As for fasting: which fast?  The only fast that is directly tied to receiving the Eucharist is its own Eucharistic fast - don't eat from Compline the night before until the reception of the Mysteries on the day of (regardless of time - morning, afternoon, evening).  This fast is the reason why evening DL's for Christmas and Theophany are forbidden on Saturdays - you're not allowed to fast on Saturday except for Great and Holy Saturday.  The other fasts (Wed and Fri; Great Lent, Christmas, Apostles, and Dormition; Holy Cross and the Beheading of St John) are part of our daily life, and as such have no bearing on reception of Holy Communion necessarily.

On a related note: there are some very harsh admonitions in the Fathers and canons for those who leave the Divine Liturgy before Communion.  Why?  Liturgy is for communion!  If we were a church that did not wish for frequent communion, then we wouldn't hold frequent Liturgies (every Sunday, plus feastdays, plus saint days; and forget about Presanctified Liturgy), but would rather have Protestant-esque services with hymns and readings, but no Body and Blood of Christ.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 11:46:24 AM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
JimCBrooklyn
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate-Diocese of Saint Petersburg/ROCOR-Diocese of Eastern America and New York
Posts: 569


Если бога нет, то все позволено


« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2011, 02:53:22 PM »

Confession (when it was public) was originally only for those sins that would separate one from communion with the Church.

On the subject:

I won't disparage the entire population within Orthodoxy that practices a 1:1 Confession:Communion ratio.  However, I would consider it heresy if one were to assert as a dogmatic principle that one must confess each and every time one wishes to commune.  Reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is dependent only on Baptism and Chrismation and no other sacraments.

Then what are your thoughts on the practices of certain jurisdictions (or maybe just priests within those jurisdictions) who demand a 1:1 ratio?

Here in Russia, for instance, the priests will even ask you when you approach if you have confessed, and if not, you will be refused. This has happened to my wife both here and at a ROCOR church in the states, and additionally, she approached once here and was asked if she had confessed, which she had, then if she had fasted, which she had not, and she was also denied. She now always does both if she intends to receive, and is always asked. In contrast, she has never been asked these things at OCA.

I, as a catechumen, have never gone up, so I have no personal experience, but I'm really curious what all of these things mean...

That is the long-standing practice of the Patriarchate of Moscow which is expected of everyone within the jurisdiction, but they don't hold it up as a dogmatic principle, otherwise they would have broken communion with the Churches that don't practice 1:1 a long time ago.  Btw: it's a double-standard; the priests are not required to confess each time they commune.

As for fasting: which fast?  The only fast that is directly tied to receiving the Eucharist is its own Eucharistic fast - don't eat from Compline the night before until the reception of the Mysteries on the day of (regardless of time - morning, afternoon, evening).  This fast is the reason why evening DL's for Christmas and Theophany are forbidden on Saturdays - you're not allowed to fast on Saturday except for Great and Holy Saturday.  The other fasts (Wed and Fri; Great Lent, Christmas, Apostles, and Dormition; Holy Cross and the Beheading of St John) are part of our daily life, and as such have no bearing on reception of Holy Communion necessarily.

On a related note: there are some very harsh admonitions in the Fathers and canons for those who leave the Divine Liturgy before Communion.  Why?  Liturgy is for communion!  If we were a church that did not wish for frequent communion, then we wouldn't hold frequent Liturgies (every Sunday, plus feastdays, plus saint days; and forget about Presanctified Liturgy), but would rather have Protestant-esque services with hymns and readings, but no Body and Blood of Christ.
Huh. So then it's not actually dogma? If so, how is it enforced, i.e., how is denying people communion justified? I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. I would understand if it were a cultural tradition, and thereby encouraged and practiced by many, but if it's not dogma, how can someone be denied communion for not following it?

We may not have good info on this, but I seem to remember hearing that in ROCOR a week-long fast is required for communion. This is not the case here in Russia.
Logged

It is not the task of Christianity to provide easy answers to every question, but to make us progressively aware of a mystery. God is not so much the object of our knowledge as the cause of our wonder.
-Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2011, 02:55:27 PM »

No Animosity, just stating my thoughts and experiences..... Grin

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?

I wish you would cut out the emoticons when you are not really laughing or smiling or winking. They make your babblings worse than they are. BTW, I wish I could comment on your recent postings but I cannot as they are nothing but incoherent and ill formed thoughts being flung about, just like my daughter's Great Dane's spittle--with those irritating emoticons to boot!!!
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2011, 02:58:11 PM »

Confession (when it was public) was originally only for those sins that would separate one from communion with the Church.

On the subject:

I won't disparage the entire population within Orthodoxy that practices a 1:1 Confession:Communion ratio.  However, I would consider it heresy if one were to assert as a dogmatic principle that one must confess each and every time one wishes to commune.  Reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is dependent only on Baptism and Chrismation and no other sacraments.

Then what are your thoughts on the practices of certain jurisdictions (or maybe just priests within those jurisdictions) who demand a 1:1 ratio?

Here in Russia, for instance, the priests will even ask you when you approach if you have confessed, and if not, you will be refused. This has happened to my wife both here and at a ROCOR church in the states, and additionally, she approached once here and was asked if she had confessed, which she had, then if she had fasted, which she had not, and she was also denied. She now always does both if she intends to receive, and is always asked. In contrast, she has never been asked these things at OCA.

I, as a catechumen, have never gone up, so I have no personal experience, but I'm really curious what all of these things mean...

That is the long-standing practice of the Patriarchate of Moscow which is expected of everyone within the jurisdiction, but they don't hold it up as a dogmatic principle, otherwise they would have broken communion with the Churches that don't practice 1:1 a long time ago.  Btw: it's a double-standard; the priests are not required to confess each time they commune.

As for fasting: which fast?  The only fast that is directly tied to receiving the Eucharist is its own Eucharistic fast - don't eat from Compline the night before until the reception of the Mysteries on the day of (regardless of time - morning, afternoon, evening).  This fast is the reason why evening DL's for Christmas and Theophany are forbidden on Saturdays - you're not allowed to fast on Saturday except for Great and Holy Saturday.  The other fasts (Wed and Fri; Great Lent, Christmas, Apostles, and Dormition; Holy Cross and the Beheading of St John) are part of our daily life, and as such have no bearing on reception of Holy Communion necessarily.

On a related note: there are some very harsh admonitions in the Fathers and canons for those who leave the Divine Liturgy before Communion.  Why?  Liturgy is for communion!  If we were a church that did not wish for frequent communion, then we wouldn't hold frequent Liturgies (every Sunday, plus feastdays, plus saint days; and forget about Presanctified Liturgy), but would rather have Protestant-esque services with hymns and readings, but no Body and Blood of Christ.

Hear, hear!
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,646


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2011, 02:59:42 PM »

No Animosity, just stating my thoughts and experiences..... Grin

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?

I wish you would cut out the emoticons when you are not really laughing or smiling or winking. They make your babblings worse than they are. BTW, I wish I could comment on your recent postings but I cannot as they are nothing but incoherent and ill formed thoughts being flung about, just like my daughter's Great Dane's spittle--with those irritating emoticons to boot!!!
At least you've never had to deal with those big, doe-eyed smileys he used to use in his posts. Tongue
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2011, 03:05:31 PM »

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin

But this 1 confession : 1 communion practice is not universal even among the "cradle" Orthodox.


The Kollyvades movement and their desire to introduce frequent communion caused uproar and division on the Holy Mountain.  It was so disruptive that several Patriarchs tried to intervene and pour oil on troubled waters.

For example there is this from Patriarch Theodosius II to the Athonite monks in about 1770:

"He wrote to the monks of Athos saying that the early Christians
received Holy Communion every Sunday, while those of the subsequent
period received it every forty days, after penance; he advised
that whoever felt himself prepared should follow the former, whereas
if he did not he should follow the latter."

http://www.synodinresistance.org/pdfs/2008/11/29/20081129bMannafromAthos.pdf


Patriarch Theodosios advises those who receive Communion every 40 days that it has to be after penance, i.e., confession.

Presumably he also intends those who commune weekly to confess weekly?
Why do you presume that?

Because it was the practice on Athos when I visited there, the last occasion being 1980.
Logged
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2011, 03:07:08 PM »

No Animosity, just stating my thoughts and experiences..... Grin

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?

I wish you would cut out the emoticons when you are not really laughing or smiling or winking. They make your babblings worse than they are. BTW, I wish I could comment on your recent postings but I cannot as they are nothing but incoherent and ill formed thoughts being flung about, just like my daughter's Great Dane's spittle--with those irritating emoticons to boot!!!
At least you've never had to deal with those big, doe-eyed smileys he used to use in his posts. Tongue

You mean like the one here?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2011, 03:12:40 PM »

Confession (when it was public) was originally only for those sins that would separate one from communion with the Church.

On the subject:

I won't disparage the entire population within Orthodoxy that practices a 1:1 Confession:Communion ratio.  However, I would consider it heresy if one were to assert as a dogmatic principle that one must confess each and every time one wishes to commune.  Reception of the Body and Blood of Christ is dependent only on Baptism and Chrismation and no other sacraments.

Then what are your thoughts on the practices of certain jurisdictions (or maybe just priests within those jurisdictions) who demand a 1:1 ratio?

Here in Russia, for instance, the priests will even ask you when you approach if you have confessed, and if not, you will be refused. This has happened to my wife both here and at a ROCOR church in the states, and additionally, she approached once here and was asked if she had confessed, which she had, then if she had fasted, which she had not, and she was also denied. She now always does both if she intends to receive, and is always asked. In contrast, she has never been asked these things at OCA.

I, as a catechumen, have never gone up, so I have no personal experience, but I'm really curious what all of these things mean...

That is the long-standing practice of the Patriarchate of Moscow which is expected of everyone within the jurisdiction, but they don't hold it up as a dogmatic principle, otherwise they would have broken communion with the Churches that don't practice 1:1 a long time ago.  Btw: it's a double-standard; the priests are not required to confess each time they commune.

As for fasting: which fast?  The only fast that is directly tied to receiving the Eucharist is its own Eucharistic fast - don't eat from Compline the night before until the reception of the Mysteries on the day of (regardless of time - morning, afternoon, evening).  This fast is the reason why evening DL's for Christmas and Theophany are forbidden on Saturdays - you're not allowed to fast on Saturday except for Great and Holy Saturday.  The other fasts (Wed and Fri; Great Lent, Christmas, Apostles, and Dormition; Holy Cross and the Beheading of St John) are part of our daily life, and as such have no bearing on reception of Holy Communion necessarily.

On a related note: there are some very harsh admonitions in the Fathers and canons for those who leave the Divine Liturgy before Communion.  Why?  Liturgy is for communion!  If we were a church that did not wish for frequent communion, then we wouldn't hold frequent Liturgies (every Sunday, plus feastdays, plus saint days; and forget about Presanctified Liturgy), but would rather have Protestant-esque services with hymns and readings, but no Body and Blood of Christ.
Huh. So then it's not actually dogma? If so, how is it enforced, i.e., how is denying people communion justified? I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. I would understand if it were a cultural tradition, and thereby encouraged and practiced by many, but if it's not dogma, how can someone be denied communion for not following it?

We may not have good info on this, but I seem to remember hearing that in ROCOR a week-long fast is required for communion. This is not the case here in Russia.

We do indeed have many customs that are not dogma but are enforced and pursued dogmatically. Having been in many churches and lived amongst many nationalities, it is my impression that if the Greeks to anything 100%, the Russians must do it 150% (ROCOR of course would at least double it). In case folks think that I am deriding Russian practice, I am currently attending a wonderful OCA parish that does does things about 100% roughly Russian style but informed by the Paris School/SVS approach.  And, I am perfectly happy with it. One of the things that I like in America is the prevalence of frequent communion and the understanding of the Holy Mystery of Penance as being essentially a sacrament of reconciliation. I really do not care if that is because of this movement or that school; it seems to me that when the three principal jurisdictions (GOA, OCA and AOA) have a common approach to this central element of our faith, only good things will ensue. Remember folks, there are really no great division between cradles and converts here; the division is between those who understand the meaning of words and practices and those who do not and consequently tend to emphasize the rubrics, or what an obscure and remote Romanian village did, or the pious habits of Serbian ancestors, etc...
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 03:15:56 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,352


metron ariston


« Reply #109 on: March 23, 2011, 03:16:09 PM »

Huh. So then it's not actually dogma? If so, how is it enforced, i.e., how is denying people communion justified? I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. I would understand if it were a cultural tradition, and thereby encouraged and practiced by many, but if it's not dogma, how can someone be denied communion for not following it?

The Bishop (and the priests that he charges with the responsibility of guarding the chalice) has the pastoral authority to determine these matters. It's not a question of "denying" or "dogma" or "rights", but of pastoral care. There are various traditions of pastoral care, just like there are various liturgical traditions.

We may not have good info on this, but I seem to remember hearing that in ROCOR a week-long fast is required for communion. This is not the case here in Russia.

This is certainly not a ROCOR-wide policy. On Mt Athos, it is not uncommon to fast for three days before communion. Quite simply, you do what your bishop and priest say.

On a more theoretical level, if one is interested in history, the sacramental theology of confession (and hence its practice) is an even later entry into the tradition than marriage, so that's one reason why there is so much variation. When Rome instituted mandatory (yearly) confession for lay people in the 13th century, many parish priests had to be taught what this novel practice of "confession" was (for centuries, it was mainly a monastic thing). The Byzantines were even less sure about it and the practice took even longer to take root in the East. Eventually, just as the liturgical services were "monasticized," so too were the parochial practices of confession and communion. Some people, a la Schmemann, prefer to see this phenomenon as an accretion and move back to an older model of pastoral care/sacramental theology. Others find that to be an unorthodox exercise in renovationism and arbitrarily anachronistic. Hence, the various practices.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 03:23:15 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #110 on: March 23, 2011, 03:30:14 PM »

We may not have good info on this, but I seem to remember hearing that in ROCOR a week-long fast is required for communion. This is not the case here in Russia.
Wait, what? So it's basically fasting 365 days a year?

Hardcore  Shocked

From what I know at my church (GOA), it's strict fast on Wednesday and Friday. I don't know about confession, though.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2011, 03:37:56 PM »

We may not have good info on this, but I seem to remember hearing that in ROCOR a week-long fast is required for communion. This is not the case here in Russia.
Wait, what? So it's basically fasting 365 days a year?

Hardcore  Shocked

From what I know at my church (GOA), it's strict fast on Wednesday and Friday. I don't know about confession, though.

A fast of that duration would most likely be associated with more infrequent communion, rather than weekly.
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,177



WWW
« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2011, 03:50:20 PM »


However, does anyone believe there is something "wrong" with confessing weekly?

I'm just trying to understand, as I've been to churches that require confession before communion and some that don't.

If it is deemed to be crucial to partake of Holy Communion weekly, why is it not as important to confess, repent and get absolution weekly?  If it's not an inconvenience for the priest, and he doesn't mind, why are so many people against it?

Isn't Confession a way for us to return to our baptismal state?  To clean ourselves off?  How can that not be important?

If I only confess four times a year, I would forget to mention the argument I had with a friend 3 weeks ago, or that I judged someone 2 months ago,  etc.  What if I were to die before the 4th month's Confession...and I've got 3 months of unconfessed sins weighing me down?

I understand they are separate Sacraments. However, without the Sacrament of Baptism, you cannot move on to any other Sacrament.  While it is a separate Sacrament, others hinge on it.  Therefore, they are inter-related.

I see both sides, and understand both arguments. 

I am coming from a background that requires Confession before Communion, and I am just trying to understand why that is frowned upon?

 
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #113 on: March 23, 2011, 04:25:27 PM »

Just Ignore My Post's if they Bother you , and I'll Ignore Yours ...... Now lets Move On, but before that.......   A Question  Grin,By your Criticism does this mean your going to stalk my posts as mod looking for whatever you interpret to Moderate ,Go right Ahead ...... Im slowly drifting away from this Forum anyway, by posting less and less ...Be Patient i'll be gone soon..... Grin Grin Grin


No Animosity, just stating my thoughts and experiences..... Grin

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?

I wish you would cut out the emoticons when you are not really laughing or smiling or winking. They make your babblings worse than they are. BTW, I wish I could comment on your recent postings but I cannot as they are nothing but incoherent and ill formed thoughts being flung about, just like my daughter's Great Dane's spittle--with those irritating emoticons to boot!!!
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:57:40 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #114 on: March 23, 2011, 04:49:59 PM »


However, does anyone believe there is something "wrong" with confessing weekly?


If confessing weekly (or monthly or yearly or whatever, for that matter) is used as a "ticket" to get to communion, then it is clearly wrong.  There is a lot of talk about abusing the sacrament of communion by taking it too lightly, but little about abusing confession as a "free pass" to communion.  If, on the other hand, confession is taken seriously, and both penitent and confessor are comfortable with it, then how could anyone condemn the practice out of hand?  I would just like to point out that confession can be abused as a sacrament too.  In fact, part of one prayer before confession said by the confessor (in the Greek tradition?) at the end of the prayer mentions something to the effect:  "...take heed, lest having come to the physician, you depart unhealed."

Quote
If it is deemed to be crucial to partake of Holy Communion weekly, why is it not as important to confess, repent and get absolution weekly?

I tried to answer this question in my previous post....I will elaborate a little here...

Quote
 
Isn't Confession a way for us to return to our baptismal state?  To clean ourselves off?  How can that not be important?

First of all, baptism is much more than simply a "cleansing", but that is a topic for another thread.  One of the thngs I was alluding to without coming right out and sayinig it in my last post was that it is quite a serious thing for people to be in danger of losing baptismal grace: to be in such a situation one would probably have comitted quite serious sin(s) or should I rather say, be in a spiritual state that is quite unbalanced.  I am not saying that this is so unusual or that it never happens, but many times our spiritual condition is such that we do not need to renew our baptism.  As I tried to illustrate in my last post, receiving the Holy Gifts in as prepared a way as possible will oftentimes put us back on the narrow path we need to walk: the Gifts themseleves are "for the remission of [our] sins", the Church tells us so!


Quote
If I only confess four times a year, I would forget to mention the argument I had with a friend 3 weeks ago, or that I judged someone 2 months ago,  etc.  What if I were to die before the 4th month's Confession...and I've got 3 months of unconfessed sins weighing me down?

I think it's important to not be legalistic about these things.  If you have something on your conscience, by all means confess it as soon as possible.  Sinful man that I am, that is what I try to do.  But is is always important to rely on and ask for the mercy of the Lord, and not to be too circumspect or legalistic.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 04:54:43 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,091


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #115 on: March 23, 2011, 04:51:47 PM »

However, does anyone believe there is something "wrong" with confessing weekly?

The sacraments are encounters with God; in that sense, if we're not willing or ready to take our shoes off and step into the darkness, then any encounter can be bad for us.  If Communion can be fire, can confession not be in some cases?

I'm just trying to understand, as I've been to churches that require confession before communion and some that don't.

If it is deemed to be crucial to partake of Holy Communion weekly, why is it not as important to confess, repent and get absolution weekly?  If it's not an inconvenience for the priest, and he doesn't mind, why are so many people against it?

If people need confession weekly, then so be it; there's no one against it if its voluntary.  Saying that reception of communion is dependent on whether you've confessed immediately beforehand, however, is a different matter.

Isn't Confession a way for us to return to our baptismal state?  To clean ourselves off?  How can that not be important?

And unction is for the healing of body and soul; but you don't see us celebrating that sacrament weekly and anointing everyone so frequently, do you?  The sacraments have a place, time, and purpose associated with them.  Communion is a unifying sacrament of the Church, participation in the Body's eschatological destiny, and partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ; it is meant to be offered and partaken weekly.  Confession is reconciliation with the Church (through the agent of the priest) and with the Lord through the repentance from sins committed, and through a renewed effort to "go and sin no more."  However, confession isn't for every sin and situation in the moment; if we were to argue that the weight of our sins compels us to weekly confession, then (spiritually) we are compelled to do it more often than that.

If I only confess four times a year, I would forget to mention the argument I had with a friend 3 weeks ago, or that I judged someone 2 months ago,  etc.  What if I were to die before the 4th month's Confession...and I've got 3 months of unconfessed sins weighing me down?

What if you go to confession and then get angry within 15 minutes and die?  One sin is still separation, and we acknowledge that we commit more sins than the grains of sand at the sea... So we continue to depend on God's mercy and love.  We must be careful about our arguments in favor of frequent confession, lest we make the spiritual life into a meritocracy and not what it is: God's grace.

I understand they are separate Sacraments. However, without the Sacrament of Baptism, you cannot move on to any other Sacrament.  While it is a separate Sacrament, others hinge on it.  Therefore, they are inter-related.

It is a once-in-a-lifetime sacrament, and thus completely different in scope than Communion, Unction, and Confession (and, in a certain sense, Ordination).

I see both sides, and understand both arguments.  

I am coming from a background that requires Confession before Communion, and I am just trying to understand why that is frowned upon?

The practice isn't frowned upon, at least not in my case; just the insistence.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #116 on: March 23, 2011, 05:05:52 PM »

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?
A certain "savoir faire" about things and often "laissez faire" attitude Wink
Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #117 on: March 23, 2011, 05:06:03 PM »

When I was a member, the ROCOR practice was to fast the week before.  That is also the practice of the Serbian Church that I attend.  However, fasting the week before is not what it seems to mean to some here.  It means to follow the fasting guidelines for the week before you commune.  In other words, if it is Brite Week, you don't fast.  If it is a regular week, you fast Wed and Fri.  If it is Lent, you follow the fast for that week.  It does NOT mean that you have to create fasts where there are none.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,177



WWW
« Reply #118 on: March 23, 2011, 05:10:51 PM »

Thank you all for the clarifications.

I am trying to learn...and accept, that things I have held sacred, might not be so.  

It's hard to unlearn something you've been doing your whole life.

This is all food for thought, and I'll have to chew on it a bit.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #119 on: March 23, 2011, 05:14:18 PM »

When I was a member, the ROCOR practice was to fast the week before.  That is also the practice of the Serbian Church that I attend.  However, fasting the week before is not what it seems to mean to some here.  It means to follow the fasting guidelines for the week before you commune.  In other words, if it is Brite Week, you don't fast.  If it is a regular week, you fast Wed and Fri.  If it is Lent, you follow the fast for that week.  It does NOT mean that you have to create fasts where there are none.

That is exactly our practice in our OCA church as well. Thanks for the info.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #120 on: March 23, 2011, 05:15:30 PM »


If confessing weekly (or monthly or yearly or whatever, for that matter) is used as a "ticket" to get to communion, then it is clearly wrong.  There is a lot of talk about abusing the sacrament of communion by taking it too lightly, but little about abusing confession as a "free pass" to communion. 

All my Orthodox life I have been in Churches (Russian and Serbian) where priests will not, generally speaking, give Communion without prior Confession.

I find this talk of "Ticket to Communion and "free passes" a bit of a boogeyman since if you pick up any of the brochures dealing with Confession and Communion in these Churches these notions are always knocked firmly on the head.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #121 on: March 23, 2011, 05:16:15 PM »

Just Ignore My Post's if they Bother you , and I'll Ignore Yours ...... Now lets Move On, but before that.......   A Question  Grin,By your Criticism does this mean your going to stalk my posts as mod looking for whatever you interpret to Moderate ,Go right Ahead ...... Im slowly drifting away from this Forum anyway, by posting less and less ...Be Patient i'll be gone soon..... Grin Grin Grin


No Animosity, just stating my thoughts and experiences..... Grin

Nothing is worst than Having Converts, be they Bishops, Priests or Lay, Tell us Cradle Orthodox, how to do Confession ,either  weekly,or monthly..If I was to Commune daily or weekly, or even monthly , I would do Daily Confession ,or weekly or monthly...But Alway's Before Recieving Holy Communion....  Grin
Why this animosity toward converts? Are we not all Orthodox by virtue of our baptism and chrismation? What makes a "convert" Orthodox any different from a "cradle" Orthodox?

I wish you would cut out the emoticons when you are not really laughing or smiling or winking. They make your babblings worse than they are. BTW, I wish I could comment on your recent postings but I cannot as they are nothing but incoherent and ill formed thoughts being flung about, just like my daughter's Great Dane's spittle--with those irritating emoticons to boot!!!

Oh, Stashko.. Forgive me for I should not have been irritated. Be well.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 05:54:50 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #122 on: March 23, 2011, 05:17:47 PM »


If confessing weekly (or monthly or yearly or whatever, for that matter) is used as a "ticket" to get to communion, then it is clearly wrong.  There is a lot of talk about abusing the sacrament of communion by taking it too lightly, but little about abusing confession as a "free pass" to communion. 

All my Orthodox life I have been in Churches (Russian and Serbian) where priests will not, generally speaking, give Communion without prior Confession.

I find this talk of "Ticket to Communion and "free passes" a bit of a boogeyman since if you pick up any of the brochures dealing with Confession and Communion in these Churches these notions are always knocked firmly on the head.
Sometimes not even after you confess, depending on the content of confession. It happened to me once.
Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2011, 05:37:01 PM »

Exactly.  The purpose of having confession prior to communion is to determine if the communion will be for your salvation or your damnation.  In some cases, we need the strength of communion to help us overcome sin.  In others, we may need to do a bit more work on our own.  There are some sins for which the canons specify a period of time away from communion.  If you have committed one of these, a priest that is doing his job will deny you the chalice until he (or sometimes even the Bishop) believe that it is the proper time.  This is not just some quaint old world custom, but a practice spoken of often in the writings of the Fathers and in the canons.  It was explained to me this way, a person who sins is in need of communion for the remission of sins.  A person who is living in sin, on the other hand, should not approach the chalice until he has repented of that sin (keeping in mind that repentence means to turn around and go the other way).  I was excommunicated from a Church once, not that I cared at the time since I was attending another.  However, when I reconciled with the former Church, I was told (per the Bishop) to attend as a penetent for a period of time before communing.  It made perfect sense to me.  Since the original issue had much to do with Pride, a little humility before communing certainly did me no harm.


If confessing weekly (or monthly or yearly or whatever, for that matter) is used as a "ticket" to get to communion, then it is clearly wrong.  There is a lot of talk about abusing the sacrament of communion by taking it too lightly, but little about abusing confession as a "free pass" to communion. 

All my Orthodox life I have been in Churches (Russian and Serbian) where priests will not, generally speaking, give Communion without prior Confession.

I find this talk of "Ticket to Communion and "free passes" a bit of a boogeyman since if you pick up any of the brochures dealing with Confession and Communion in these Churches these notions are always knocked firmly on the head.
Sometimes not even after you confess, depending on the content of confession. It happened to me once.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #124 on: March 23, 2011, 05:37:55 PM »


Thats Exactly How I and my brother and sisters And Parents, Were Taught and they taught us to Fast, A week's Preparation....No one or Two Day fasts and then Holy Communion........Things Are Progressing not for the Better but for the worse it seems to me...... Is Orthodoxy coming to a Hour Fast Like the catholic Church and eventually no fasting at all required police 

How is Baptisim tied in with confession anyway , being a GodFather several times at  Baptisims ,i never witnessed anyone confessing ,just the baptisim that washes away the sins from the Baptised..... Huh Huh


When I was a member, the ROCOR practice was to fast the week before.  That is also the practice of the Serbian Church that I attend.  However, fasting the week before is not what it seems to mean to some here.  It means to follow the fasting guidelines for the week before you commune.  In other words, if it is Brite Week, you don't fast.  If it is a regular week, you fast Wed and Fri.  If it is Lent, you follow the fast for that week.  It does NOT mean that you have to create fasts where there are none.
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #125 on: March 23, 2011, 05:40:31 PM »

Just Ignore My Post's if they Bother you , and I'll Ignore Yours ...... Now lets Move On, but before that.......   A Question  Grin,By your Criticism does this mean your going to stalk my posts as mod looking for whatever you interpret to Moderate ,Go right Ahead ...... Im slowly drifting away from this Forum anyway, by posting less and less ...Be Patient i'll be gone soon..... Grin Grin Grin


May I speak up in Stashko's defence.  There is a whole 'nother world of Orthodoxy alive and thriving in the countries of Eastern Europe.   Their traditions are not the same as in the US which has been kind of confused by an admixture of multiple varying practices by immigrant Churches, confusion by priests adopting or half-adopting the thoughts of the Paris School in the States.... etc., etc.   So there is a major lack of uniformity in the States.  In the home countries there is much more uniformity of custom.   I like Stashko's presence because he reminds of us this older world of Orthodoxy.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #126 on: March 23, 2011, 05:53:38 PM »


However, does anyone believe there is something "wrong" with confessing weekly?



I reply to you to add a consideration to the excellent replies already given by Pravoslavbob and Father George. That is why I isolated your first sentence above.

If we can look at "confessing" as a process, something that we do, it is clear that we confess at least once a week during Divine Liturgy:

"I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. Moreover, I believe that this is truly thine immaculate Body and that this is truly thy most precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, in word or in deed, in knowledge or in ignorance. And grant that I may partake of thy Holy Mysteries without condemnation, for the remission of sins and for life everlasting."

Daily, the Trisagion Prayers presuppose that when we pray for the Lord to forgive our sins we do not pray in an abstract fashion but are truly sorry for our real, concrete sins and that we promise that we will try to sin no more. I am highlighting the places that emphasize this.

"O heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things; Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O gracious Lord.
Holy God, holy mighty, holy immortal: have mercy on us. (Thrice)
All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy God, visit and heal our infirmities for thy name's sake.
Lord, have mercy. (Thrice)
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."

Also, the evening prayers may include the following:

"PSALM 50: Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy great mercy: according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out mine iniquity. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge mine iniquity: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee only have I sinned, and done evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged..."

"A PRAYER OF REPENTANCE: O Lord our God, good and merciful, I acknowledge all my sins which I have committed every day of my life, in thought, word and deed; in body and soul alike. I am heartily sorry that I have ever offended thee, and I sincerely repent; with tears I humbly pray thee, O Lord: of thy mercy forgive me all my past transgressions and absolve me from them. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy Grace, to amend my way of life and to sin no more; that I may walk in the way of the righteous and offer praise and glory to the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.

SAINT EPHRAIM’S PRAYER:
O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

JESUS PRAYER: Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."

In addition, it seems to me that each time that we catch ourselves doing something bad or falling short, we have the opportunity (that we should take advantage of) to confess right then and there.  One more thing, my Priest tells each penitent to hold nothing back because we are confessing to the Lord and He knows everything anyway. (I know I am paraphrasing but that's the way I remember this exhortation).

So, we confess to the Lord almost all of the time and we ask for forgiveness almost all of the time. The Holy Mystery of Penance (formal name but also called Confession and Reconciliation), is something that we do in addition, and rightly so. The issue is simply whether we MUST do so each and every time before we take communion. Now, if we take communion minimally, it is obvious that for some reason we have separated ourselves from the Church and must be reconciled. If our shortcoming is a grave sin or if we persist in falling short in a particular vice that we have, we should also avail ourselves of the Mystery of Penance. Each individual is different so it would be impossible to say how often one should receive the Sacrament of Confession. That is why the frequency is set between the spiritual father and ourselves. I want to reemphasize the critical role each one of us has in this process. We cannot abdicate our responsibility to confess, correct and partake all of the time by (a) leaving it all up to the priest, (b) observing the minimal requirements, or (c)playing a game before the priest and our fellow parishioners (We may succeed in fooling them, and ourselves, but there is no way that we are going to fool the Lord).




« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 05:56:55 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,865



« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2011, 06:04:17 PM »


Thats Exactly How I and my brother and sisters And Parents, Were Taught and they taught us to Fast, A week's Preparation....No one or Two Day fasts and then Holy Communion........Things Are Progressing not for the Better but for the worse it seems to me...... Is Orthodoxy coming to a Hour Fast Like the catholic Church and eventually no fasting at all required police 

How is Baptisim tied in with confession anyway , being a GodFather several times at  Baptisims ,i never witnessed anyone confessing ,just the baptisim that washes away the sins from the Baptised..... Huh Huh


When I was a member, the ROCOR practice was to fast the week before.  That is also the practice of the Serbian Church that I attend.  However, fasting the week before is not what it seems to mean to some here.  It means to follow the fasting guidelines for the week before you commune.  In other words, if it is Brite Week, you don't fast.  If it is a regular week, you fast Wed and Fri.  If it is Lent, you follow the fast for that week.  It does NOT mean that you have to create fasts where there are none.

Stashko--I hope you will not mind if I point out to you that you may have misunderstood Punch's words. He says no special fasting is required the week before other than the fasting prescribed for that week. In a normal week, we would fast Wednesday and Friday, in addition to the ascetic fasting from the meal the night before the Liturgy. In the weeks after Pascha and Nativity, we would not fast Wednesday and Friday but keep the ascetic fast. During Great Lent, we would fast each and every day, plus the ascetic fast. Is this how you remember the practice was in the Old Country?
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
IsmiLiora
Chronic Exaggerator
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: One step closer!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America (GOA)
Posts: 3,434


Back by unpopular demand.


« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2011, 06:10:02 PM »


Stashko--I hope you will not mind if I point out to you that you may have misunderstood Punch's words. He says no special fasting is required the week before other than the fasting prescribed for that week. In a normal week, we would fast Wednesday and Friday, in addition to the ascetic fasting from the meal the night before the Liturgy. In the weeks after Pascha and Nativity, we would not fast Wednesday and Friday but keep the ascetic fast. During Great Lent, we would fast each and every day, plus the ascetic fast. Is this how you remember the practice was in the Old Country?
Yes, color me confused. What you described is how I thought it's supposed to be. (Thanks to everyone who cleared that up for me!)

Unless Stashko is going all monastic on us, I'd say that it would appear to be a pretty tough fasting schedule for most people already. I'm not sure how that = almost no fasting required.
Logged

She's touring the facility/and picking up slack.
--
"For in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow." Ecclesiastes 1:18
--
I once believed in causes too, I had my pointless point of view --
Life went on no matter who was wrong or right
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2011, 06:21:18 PM »


However, does anyone believe there is something "wrong" with confessing weekly?



I reply to you to add a consideration to the excellent replies already given by Pravoslavbob and Father George. That is why I isolated your first sentence above.

If we can look at "confessing" as a process, something that we do, it is clear that we confess at least once a week during Divine Liturgy:

"I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. Moreover, I believe that this is truly thine immaculate Body and that this is truly thy most precious Blood. Therefore, I pray Thee, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, in word or in deed, in knowledge or in ignorance. And grant that I may partake of thy Holy Mysteries without condemnation, for the remission of sins and for life everlasting."

Daily, the Trisagion Prayers presuppose that when we pray for the Lord to forgive our sins we do not pray in an abstract fashion but are truly sorry for our real, concrete sins and that we promise that we will try to sin no more. I am highlighting the places that emphasize this.

"O heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things; Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O gracious Lord.
Holy God, holy mighty, holy immortal: have mercy on us. (Thrice)
All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy God, visit and heal our infirmities for thy name's sake.
Lord, have mercy. (Thrice)
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."

Also, the evening prayers may include the following:

"PSALM 50: Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy great mercy: according to the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out mine iniquity. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge mine iniquity: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee only have I sinned, and done evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified in thy words, and prevail when thou art judged..."

"A PRAYER OF REPENTANCE: O Lord our God, good and merciful, I acknowledge all my sins which I have committed every day of my life, in thought, word and deed; in body and soul alike. I am heartily sorry that I have ever offended thee, and I sincerely repent; with tears I humbly pray thee, O Lord: of thy mercy forgive me all my past transgressions and absolve me from them. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy Grace, to amend my way of life and to sin no more; that I may walk in the way of the righteous and offer praise and glory to the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.

SAINT EPHRAIM’S PRAYER:
O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.
But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.
Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

JESUS PRAYER: Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner."

In addition, it seems to me that each time that we catch ourselves doing something bad or falling short, we have the opportunity (that we should take advantage of) to confess right then and there.  One more thing, my Priest tells each penitent to hold nothing back because we are confessing to the Lord and He knows everything anyway. (I know I am paraphrasing but that's the way I remember this exhortation).

So, we confess to the Lord almost all of the time and we ask for forgiveness almost all of the time. The Holy Mystery of Penance (formal name but also called Confession and Reconciliation), is something that we do in addition, and rightly so. The issue is simply whether we MUST do so each and every time before we take communion. Now, if we take communion minimally, it is obvious that for some reason we have separated ourselves from the Church and must be reconciled. If our shortcoming is a grave sin or if we persist in falling short in a particular vice that we have, we should also avail ourselves of the Mystery of Penance. Each individual is different so it would be impossible to say how often one should receive the Sacrament of Confession. That is why the frequency is set between the spiritual father and ourselves. I want to reemphasize the critical role each one of us has in this process. We cannot abdicate our responsibility to confess, correct and partake all of the time by (a) leaving it all up to the priest, (b) observing the minimal requirements, or (c)playing a game before the priest and our fellow parishioners (We may succeed in fooling them, and ourselves, but there is no way that we are going to fool the Lord).


Thank you for all these example of prayers for forgiveness.  But you will notice one important element missing - *absolution*.   None of these prayers are certain to confer absolution.  This is a power which the Lord Jesus Christ has entrusted to His ordained priests.  That is why a sacramental Confession with its certitude of absolution has greater value than these prayers.   We say these prayers over and over, asking forgiveness again and again, often for the same sins.   But with one short declaration by a priest we are vouchsafed absolution.
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2011, 06:23:48 PM »

 When the Spirit Moves Some one to Partake Of Holy Communion,let's say at a major feast day like the Domitian Fast,we were taught to prepare ourselfs by fasting a week ,then confession and recieve Holy Communion on the Feast Day.......

Fasting and confession and Recieving Holy Communion  was 3 or 4  times a year..Not Weekly of monthly, like it is now.....

I prefer the 2 , 3 , Times a year of recieving Holy Communion than weekly or Monthly......
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 06:35:51 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2011, 06:32:54 PM »

In the Serbian church it is common to confess before communion.  each time.  Most people just go up to the priest and when he says "do you have anything to confess" they say "no"  (this is from the priests, its not like i'm listening in or anything  Wink)

I was a Serbian priest for two decades.  I have neither administered nor experienced a shonky Confession such as you describe.   If you visit a Serbian church you will see with your own eyes how much time the priest spends with each penitent.
Fr. Ambrose, are you accustomed to make such generalizations from your own personal experience?

Sorry if you see it that way.  I was responding to the generalisation offered by Serb1389 above.  "Most people just go up to the priest... etc."  In my experience that is a generalisation I would probably find hard to accept.   But obviously it is a generalisation which fits with what Serb1389 has been told by priests.  Two different experiences, two different generalisations.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2011, 06:36:29 PM »

/\  Hmm, don't know what happened there.  The site seems to have jumped back to Page 1 and I responded to that message as if it were a new one.
Logged
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,567



« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2011, 06:41:58 PM »

When the Spirit Moves Some one to Partake Of Holy Communion,let's say at a major feast day like the Domitian Fast,we were taught to prepare ourselfs by fasting a week ,then confession and recieve Holy Communion on the Feast Day.......

Fasting and confession and Recieving Holy Communion  was 3 or 4  times a year..Not Weekly of monthly, like it is now.....

I prefer the 2 , 3 , Times a year of recieving Holy Communion than weekly or Monthly......


I think that what is confusing some people is what you mean by "fasting for a week".  You use the Dormition Fast as an example.  I have seen that people who believe in infrequent communion tend to commune during one or more of the Great Fasts (Advent, Lent, Apostles and Dormition).  However, if the Spirit moved you to commune after Brite Week, would you still fast during that week?  Or, if you were moved to commune during a regular week, would you abstain from meat and dairy all week or just Wed and Fri?
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2011, 06:55:20 PM »

The whole week which ever  one chooses be it a Feast Day or a regular week one abstains from meat and dairy prior to Holy Communion......Thats how I was taught...

When the Spirit Moves Some one to Partake Of Holy Communion,let's say at a major feast day like the Domitian Fast,we were taught to prepare ourselfs by fasting a week ,then confession and recieve Holy Communion on the Feast Day.......

Fasting and confession and Recieving Holy Communion  was 3 or 4  times a year..Not Weekly of monthly, like it is now.....

I prefer the 2 , 3 , Times a year of recieving Holy Communion than weekly or Monthly......


I think that what is confusing some people is what you mean by "fasting for a week".  You use the Dormition Fast as an example.  I have seen that people who believe in infrequent communion tend to commune during one or more of the Great Fasts (Advent, Lent, Apostles and Dormition).  However, if the Spirit moved you to commune after Brite Week, would you still fast during that week?  Or, if you were moved to commune during a regular week, would you abstain from meat and dairy all week or just Wed and Fri?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 06:57:06 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Tags: communion 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.199 seconds with 72 queries.