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Author Topic: The present in Russia  (Read 3617 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 28, 2003, 02:53:08 PM »

WARNING: this is brutal, hardcore, stuff, definitely rated NC-17. I was on this American-made site from Russia and happened to see the link.

http://exile.ru/162/162040001.html

I don't know who/what to hate more: Mark Ames and tourists like him, the -+-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+, pimps and others running the Russian sex trade or the conditions in Russia that cause this.

But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2003, 02:57:34 PM by Serge » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2003, 03:35:09 PM »

WARNING: this is brutal, hardcore, stuff, definitely rated NC-17. I was on this American-made site from Russia and happened to see the link.

http://exile.ru/162/162040001.html

I don't know who/what to hate more: Mark Ames and tourists like him, the -+-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+, pimps and others running the Russian sex trade or the conditions in Russia that cause this.

But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.

After reading about 1/2 of it, ditto.  Very sad.  God have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2003, 04:31:34 PM »

WARNING: this is brutal, hardcore, stuff, definitely rated NC-17. I was on this American-made site from Russia and happened to see the link.

http://exile.ru/162/162040001.html

I don't know who/what to hate more: Mark Ames and tourists like him, the -+-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+, pimps and others running the Russian sex trade or the conditions in Russia that cause this.

But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.

Isn't it better to be either hot or cold than lukewarm. Protestant cultures can be downright lukewarm and anemic.
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2003, 04:56:52 PM »

WARNING: this is brutal, hardcore, stuff, definitely rated NC-17. I was on this American-made site from Russia and happened to see the link.

http://exile.ru/162/162040001.html

I don't know who/what to hate more: Mark Ames and tourists like him, the -+-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+, pimps and others running the Russian sex trade or the conditions in Russia that cause this.

But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.

Isn't it better to be either hot or cold than lukewarm. Protestant cultures can be downright lukewarm and anemic.

Thank God for mediocrity.
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2003, 11:48:21 PM »

That article did not surprise me at all.

I lived for a short while in Moscow and also spent time in Volgograd.

Just walk down Tverskaya Ulitsa in Moscow at night, especially in the summer. You can't miss it.

Or stay at the Kosmos Hotel (an otherwise really nice Russian hotel) and visit some of the bars.

The activities described in the article are not that visible in Volgograd, which, although it has a population of about 1 million, has the feel of a small town.

Regarding the mediocrity in Protestant societies: the sex trade is bad in those societies, as well. It's maybe worse in Russia because of the desperate poverty there. I think most of the girls involved in the sex trade would much rather be doing something else.

At least many of them realize that what they are doing will lead to their damnation.

In Protestant societies "OSAS" may insulate the worst of sinners from that realization.
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2003, 12:01:00 AM »

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Quote from: Linus7 In Protestant societies "OSAS" may insulate the worst of sinners from that realization.
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2003, 12:08:36 AM »

Sorry!

OSAS = "Once-Saved-Always-Saved," the doctrine that one moment of instantaneous conversion to Christ secures eternal salvation without possibility of it being revoked due to sinful conduct or even outright apostasy.

Example: Joe attends a Billy Graham crusade, feels convicted, prays the "Sinner's Prayer," and accepts Christ as his "personal Savior."

Twenty years later, Joe renounces his faith in Christ and becomes a Muslim.

OSAS says it doesn't matter. Joe accepted Christ twenty years ago. His salvation is in the bag no matter what he does.

Of course, I am exaggerating somewhat for purposes of illustration.

Most Protestants would say that anyone who does what Joe did probably never was sincere in the first place.

However, I have a friend who is an ordained Brethren minister. I have described the "Joe scenario" to him and he affirms that, yes, Joe would be saved no matter what.



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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2003, 07:21:03 AM »

Lord have mercy, I am outraged! Drive-thru ‘order a pick’ prostitution rings! Can capitalism get any sicker? It is very sad, as these women, if in better circumstances could have been some pious and educated Orthodox women and done something productive and spiritually rewarding with their life. But here they are, being pimped around and taken advantage of by crass mafios; not to mention the international johns group—you know those low life suckers whose women in their own countries don’t pay them a second look so they travel all over the world with their hard currencies taking advantage of desperate women.

That is the direction of Protestant oriented western culture, into moral chaos, materialism, widespread illicit sex, declining family stability, and sin. The pimps and the missionaries (Protestant) arrive at the same time. In other words, if experience in other parts of the world is any clue, this growing of prostitution in Russia is a product of cultural imperialism, the same force that is attacking the Orthodox Church through it’s missionaries.

Quote
But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.

Ain’t that the truth. The moral relativism in American culture is astounding. I just had a debate with a law student (at an elite ivy league law school) the other day about sexual immorality and, because of his adherence to this Protestant pluralist principle was unable to answer definitively if pedophilia, incest and bestiality were immorally wrong. He could not respond to morals but argued solely from legality (i.e. ‘pedophilia is wrong because it is against the law’). For his response to bestiality I was shocked and taken aback. He said, and I will never forget this, that so long as it is a consenting adult and a consenting animal, he advises people, “just don’t hurt yourself.” When a society can not say without hesitation that something is right or wrong then that society has lost its moral foundation.
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2003, 08:27:34 AM »

Lord have mercy, I am outraged! Drive-thru ‘order a pick’ prostitution rings! Can capitalism get any sicker? It is very sad, as these women, if in better circumstances could have been some pious and educated Orthodox women and done something productive and spiritually rewarding with their life. But here they are, being pimped around and taken advantage of by crass mafios; not to mention the international johns group—you know those low life suckers whose women in their own countries don’t pay them a second look so they travel all over the world with their hard currencies taking advantage of desperate women.

That is the direction of Protestant oriented western culture, into moral chaos, materialism, widespread illicit sex, declining family stability, and sin. The pimps and the missionaries (Protestant) arrive at the same time. In other words, if experience in other parts of the world is any clue, this growing of prostitution in Russia is a product of cultural imperialism, the same force that is attacking the Orthodox Church through it’s missionaries.

Quote
But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.

Ain’t that the truth. The moral relativism in American culture is astounding. I just had a debate with a law student (at an elite ivy league law school) the other day about sexual immorality and, because of his adherence to this Protestant pluralist principle was unable to answer definitively if pedophilia, incest and bestiality were immorally wrong. He could not respond to morals but argued solely from legality (i.e. ‘pedophilia is wrong because it is against the law’). For his response to bestiality I was shocked and taken aback. He said, and I will never forget this, that so long as it is a consenting adult and a consenting animal, he advises people, “just don’t hurt yourself.” When a society can not say without hesitation that something is right or wrong then that society has lost its moral foundation.


Thank God, one does not find the levels of prostitution and other social ills among the Russian Baptists/Evangelical Christians and Mennonites that one finds among those who come from other Russian religious traditions.

Perhaps the Russian Baptists can set an example for others.




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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2003, 02:10:18 PM »

A sorry and miserable state of affairs.  In Lebanon, we have our Rumanians and Russians who offer their "services", though prostitution is illegal in that country.

The sheer sinfulness rests in the taking economic advantage of desperate women who are usually in want, which is normally the case in Eastern Europe.  I've never loathed such women; in many cases they are not at all happy with their lot, or with their "jobs".

I contrast this with professional Western strippers who reach media stardom, and showered with riches in comparison to the poor and financially destitute women working in brothels.  The former are content with prostituting themselves to the entire world through media, and damn well enjoy it, which is repulsive.  A common prostitute does no more damage to the soul than that to the one fellow who enters her room and procures her sexual services and consort.  The glitter and glamour girls on the other hand are content in poisoning and killing literally millions of souls worldwide via the immense reach and scope of media, while both taking pleasure in their actions, and being lavished with money.

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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2003, 06:33:12 PM »

WARNING: this is brutal, hardcore, stuff, definitely rated NC-17. I was on this American-made site from Russia and happened to see the link.

http://exile.ru/162/162040001.html

I don't know who/what to hate more: Mark Ames and tourists like him, the -+-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+, pimps and others running the Russian sex trade or the conditions in Russia that cause this.

But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.

Isn't it better to be either hot or cold than lukewarm. Protestant cultures can be downright lukewarm and anemic.

That's a pretty broad brush that's painting.  How about the slums of London and General William Booth who started the Salvation Army?

Or John Brown (who's body lies a moldering...), Harriet Tubman and the people who ran the underground railway against the slave owners threats of violence.

Or Jonathan Myrick Daniels, an Episopal seminarian who died of a gun shot wound meant for a young Black girl in Alabama in 1965: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/228.html

 "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal..." doesn't sound lukewarm to me either, nor mediocre.
 
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2003, 06:38:02 PM »

WARNING: this is brutal, hardcore, stuff, definitely rated NC-17. I was on this American-made site from Russia and happened to see the link.

http://exile.ru/162/162040001.html

I don't know who/what to hate more: Mark Ames and tourists like him, the -+-¦-+-+-ç-¦-+, pimps and others running the Russian sex trade or the conditions in Russia that cause this.

But it reminds me of something I learnt before: that in Catholic and Orthodox societies you have extremes, incredible holiness and incredible evil, in the same society, while Protestant cultures flatten this out into mediocrity.

Isn't it better to be either hot or cold than lukewarm. Protestant cultures can be downright lukewarm and anemic.

That's a pretty broad brush that's painting.  How about the slums of London and General William Booth who started the Salvation Army?

Or John Brown (who's body lies a moldering...), Harriet Tubman and the people who ran the underground railway against the slave owners threats of violence.

Or Jonathan Myrick Daniels, an Episopal seminarian who died of a gun shot wound meant for a young Black girl in Alabama in 1965: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/228.html

 "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal..." doesn't sound lukewarm to me either, nor mediocre.
 
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Those are some good examples.
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2003, 09:48:27 PM »

Quote
From uturn: Thank God, one does not find the levels of prostitution and other social ills among the Russian Baptists/Evangelical Christians and Mennonites that one finds among those who come from other Russian religious traditions.

Perhaps the Russian Baptists can set an example for others.

If you want a Baptist prostitute you need to go to Memphis.

Have you done some sort of research in Russia to back up what you are saying here?

America is a nation with a Protestant majority. Yet we have our share of prostitution, porn, incest, pedophilia, etc.

In fact, it seems that as Evangelical conversions in Russia have increased, the general morality there has experienced a corresponding decline.

Why is that?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2003, 09:51:44 PM by Linus7 » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2003, 10:01:09 PM »

Quote
That's a pretty broad brush that's painting.

America is a contradictory society, it always has been. WWII is a prime example. America’s Army was racist and segregated, Black solders in this company and white solders in that company; not much had changed since the civil war with the exception that Black men were now allowed to be promoted to officers. So the picture emerges: a racist, segregated army going off to fight in a heroic battle against the world’s most racist brute, in the name of humanitarian values. Protesting against Hitler’s putting Jews and other ‘undesirables’ in camps while at the same time themselves putting Japanese in internment camps (an edict ordered by the most liberal sitting president in American history)—I can think of no greater manifestation of America’s tendency of holding the good and the bad simultaneously together in one unholy mix.

Quote
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal..."

The same people that said those words themselves practiced inequality; many of them were slave owners (Thomas Jefferson, George Washington). George Washington definitely thought that Black men were about as equal as a case of molasses, which is the exact price he sold one of his slaves for. Most of the men who believed that ‘all men are created equal’ believed the Native Americans to be hindrances to the spread of ‘civilization’ and fit for either removal or death, “the only good Indian is a dead Indian” was the slogan. Don’t forget that ‘all men’ excluded even most white men at the time because they did not meet the property ownership requirement.

Quote
Or John Brown

A hero indeed, one who was hanged and had most of the male members of his family (including his sons) hanged because he stood for human decency and fought to achieve it. The point is that these men stood opposed to the prevalent culture of their time, they were not manifestations of it. John Brown, in American popular culture, was demonized and made into a despicable arch villain. He was not redeemed until the 20th century.

Harriet Tubman, as well as her abolitionists and Quaker network of friends, would have been hanged as well if they were caught.

Sticking to the point that Serge implied and Samer expressed. Look at how this sex industry finds itself in Russia; they have drive-thru order-a-prostitute-to-go services! In the West, the sex industry is Hollywood. It is glamorous. It is the strip clubs that we are supposed to go to for our bachelor parties, it is the unheard of brothels that follow US solders to Vietnam and ports were sailors are stationed. Ten years ago Eritrea used to brag about not having any prostitutes walking the streets. After the Ethio-Eritrea border war, and the intervention of UN troops, that has all been flipped on its head with brothels all over the place in Asmara (the Eritrean capital) to cater to the needs, and demands, of UN solders.
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2003, 10:02:46 PM »

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Thank God, one does not find the levels of prostitution and other social ills among the Russian Baptists/Evangelical Christians and Mennonites that one finds among those who come from other Russian religious traditions.

Oh now give me a BIG BREAK! You don’t evaluate Baptists, or any other sect, were they are a new and an energetic cult movement, where the adherents will undoubtedly still be ‘by the book’ pious fundamentalists because they are energized by the newness of something. You evaluate the long term affects of Protestantism by looking at societies were they have had the longest time to spread, live and multiply. So that means the Baptists in America and not the ‘been Baptist less-than-a-year’ apostates in Russia. For instance, you look at the tendency of Protestant ‘Gospel music’ not where it is new and still moderate but where it has had the longest time to grow become what it inevitably will. That is America where “DJ and MC Down for Christ” and “Headbangers for Jesus” have turned the Protestant church into an amusement circus and a mockery of Christian worship. Mezmur is Psalms not rock music, I am sure that King David is turning in his grave.

So let’s look at America, what are the demographics of Protestant prostitutes. What about Harlem, are the prostitutes not Baptists?

Go to Kenya; in Nairobi most of the prostitutes are Protestants, and in Mombassa most of the prostitutes are Muslims, while the Orthodox (through Coptic and Greek missionaries) and Catholics (Roman) look on.  

Quote
Perhaps the Russian Baptists can set an example for others.

Yes, maybe they can be an example. They can be an example to all other Protestant cults spreading cultural subversion. The Russians can set the example and return to the proud thousand-year-old faith of their heritage and the missionaries can set the example by getting the hell out of Russia and any other Orthodox country. I think the Baptist have their own work cut out for them here in America, like dealing with having by-laws in the Southern Baptist Convention that prevent inter-racial marriage. God forbid that they spread that filth to Russia.
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2003, 10:13:06 PM »

Amen, brother Aklie!

Perhaps Bob Jones University's policy against interracial dating among its students is the kind of "example" uturn prefers.

They evidently skip Numbers 12 when they read the Bible at Bob Jones U.

I hope the Baptist missionaries in Russia encounter the Orthodox Church there and are converted, along with the other heretics I saw when I was there: Mormons on their bikes and Jehovah's Witnesses.

I do not recall the exact statistics, but I believe in a fairly recent poll a majority of Americans polled said they have been "born again," as Evangelicals understand it.

If that is the case, why isn't this society a veritable Utopia?

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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2003, 11:59:55 PM »

Umm, because it's made up of many complicated fallible Human Beings?  A quote from St. Paul comes to mind:

 "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do."  Romans 7:19

Was society under the early Romanovs or the Constantinople of Justinian a veritable Utopia?  I suspect not, even without any sort of Protestant around.

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« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2003, 12:20:48 AM »

To be fair, Bob Jones University has changed it's policy to allow interracial dating.  This happened after GOP nominee GW Bush stopped by the school on the campaign circuit and BJU's policies were made known all across the country.  While inter-racial dating is technically allowed at BJU it is very much frowned upon, and I believe that if there was not such a public outcry their ban on inter-racial dating would still be in effect.
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« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2003, 12:28:39 AM »

Quote
Umm, because it's made up of many complicated fallible Human Beings?  A quote from St. Paul comes to mind:

"For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do."  Romans 7:19

Was society under the early Romanovs or the Constantinople of Justinian a veritable Utopia?  I suspect not, even without any sort of Protestant around.

Ebor

Did you read uturn's post?

My response was based on it, not upon some unrealistic expectations of any kind of Utopia.

Believe me, as a former Protestant, I know the born-again crowd is definitely fallible, as are we all.

Read uturn's post, then you may understand mine.
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« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2003, 12:31:51 AM »

Amator Dei -

I was not aware of the policy change at Bob Jones.

Thanks for the info.
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« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2003, 01:16:33 PM »

From uturn: Thank God, one does not find the levels of prostitution and other social ills among the Russian Baptists/Evangelical Christians and Mennonites that one finds among those who come from other Russian religious traditions.

Perhaps the Russian Baptists can set an example for others.


Have you done some sort of research in Russia to back up what you are saying here?

Response: No, not personally. But the Kenyon Institute, as well as Stetson University, certainly has. And my cousin--once an Orthodox seminarian in Romania-- noticed the same cultural phenomenon existed among the Romanian Baptists. If you remember, the late Father Alexander Men also had a high opiniion of the Russian Anabaptist tradition and their high moral values.

America is a nation with a Protestant majority. Yet we have our share of prostitution, porn, incest, pedophilia, etc.

Response: Where do I mention American Baptists in my post? There has been a baptistic or Mennonite presence in Russia since the 17th century and they certainly can't be compared to or just 'lumped in' with those Americans who consider themselves to be a part of the Anabaptist tradition.

In fact, it seems that as Evangelical conversions in Russia have increased, the general morality there has experienced a corresponding decline.

Response: Actually, people who are attracted to the baptistic sects are often driven by a desire to embrace stronger moral values.

post only edited to fix quote problem--anastasios[/quote]
« Last Edit: March 30, 2003, 01:23:08 PM by anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2003, 01:26:19 PM »

Uturn,

There are good and bad Baptists and good and bad Orthodox.  There is an old work from about 1900 called "Protestant and Catholic countries compared" which "proves" with statistics that Catholic countries have less suicides, murders, unmarried mothers, unemployment, etc. then Protestant countries.  Does that mean anything? No.

I lived in North Carolina for six years and most of the baptists I knew were immoral, except a small minority that were moral.  I think with any new religion, such as Baptists in Russia, you are going to attract highly-committed people.  Within a generation the Baptists in Russia will act just like the Orthodox--a mix of good and bad.

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« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2003, 10:08:53 PM »

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From uturn: Response: Where do I mention American Baptists in my post?

You didn't have to.

The implications of your post were that being a Baptist or Mennonite is superior to being Orthodox and that if everyone were Baptist or Mennonite the general level of morality would be higher.

Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.

Many Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are highly moral people. That is what makes them such highly successful deceivers.

I have lived in Russia. Have you?

Poverty and unemployment have produced the terrible conditions there, not the Orthodox Church.

Seventy years of Bolshevism have also robbed the young people there of a Christian upbringing and any knowledge of Christian doctrine. That makes them open to immorality, crime, narcotics, and alcoholism, as well as to the shiney new errors and sects of American Protestantism.
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