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Author Topic: Orthodox Christians in the Holocaust  (Read 5578 times) Average Rating: 0
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SouthSerb99
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2006, 12:04:23 AM »

Specifically, see below...

STEPINAC'S PERSONAL CULPABILITY
As archbishop of Zagreb and military vicar to the armed forces and the Ustashe, Stepinac was the de facto head of the Catholic Church in Croatia during the Second World War. In a regime that counted its Catholicism as the core of its national identity, the Archbishop's importance and influence in the events that transpired there during and after the war were substantial.

There is no question that he initially welcomed the establishment of the Ustashe state as the fulfillment of centuries of Croatian aspirations for independence. In a pastoral letter published less than a month after the founding of the NDH, Stepinac consecrates and legitimizes the new regime:


For as confused as today's fateful events may be, as varying as the factors may be that have influence on the course of events, one can nonetheless see the working of the divine hand.
 

He likewise lauded the enactment of Catholic dogma into law that marked the initial stages of the regime. He looked with particular favor on laws that meted out the death penalty for abortion and 30 day in jail for swearing.  There is no doubt either that he welcomed the elimination of religious tolerance. In a diary entry that details his first meeting with the poglavnik Stepinac notes with evident approval the coming suppression of rival faiths.

The Archbishop gave his blessing for his work.... When the Archbishop had finished, the poglavnik answered that he wanted to give all his help to the Catholic Church. He also said the would uproot the sect of Old Catholics which was nothing more than a society for divorce. He went on to say that he would not show tolerance toward the Orthodox Serbian Church because, as he saw things, it was not a church but a political organization. All this left the Archbishop with the impression that the poglavnik was a sincere Catholic and that the Church would have freedom of action, even if the Archbishop did not delude himself into thinking that all these things could happen easily.
 

The religious intolerance of the Ustashe continued to be a major factor in Stepinac's support for the regime throughout the war. At one point, he complained bitterly that the Italian fascist troops that were occupying a portion of Croatia during the war were allowing so much religious freedom that it was threatening the stability of the state. To the Bishop of Mostar Stepinac wrote,

The Italians have returned and resumed civil and military authority. The schismatic Churches have immediately come to life again, and the Orthodox priests, in hiding up till now, have reappeared in freedom. The Italians seem to be favorably disposed toward Serbs and severe toward Catholics.
 

He addressed a similar complaint to the Minister for Italian Affairs at Zagreb:

It so happens that in the Croatian territory annexed to Italy a constant decline in religious life is to be observed, and a certain discernible shift from Catholicism to schism. If that most Catholic part of Croatia should cease in the future to be so, the blame and the responsibility before God and history will lie with Catholic Italy. The religious aspect of the problem I am discussing makes it my duty to speak in such plain and open terms, since I am responsible for the religious well-being of Croatia.

Stepinac also explored the possibilities for enriching the church at the expense of its dispossessed Orthodox rivals. The Archbishop specifically petitioned the poglavnik to hand over the Orahovica Serb monastery to Trappists whom Hitler had expelled from their monastery at Reichenberg.
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/features/essays/psg.html
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2006, 12:18:59 AM »

Bogo

I don't know the full history behind many of the pictures you posted (I much prefer ancient history to modern history... though there was a very interesting show on British forces in Iraq during one of the World Wars tonight... but I'm digressing). Anyway, I'm not sure where you got the pics from or who wrote the captions, but some of them are anachronistic. For example:

Quote
Priests give Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.

But much like the swastika, the salute given in this picture did not become associated predominantly with Hitler until after his madness during the late 30's/early 40's. I remember reading one time that many people used this type of salute with no evil intention meant, as people also used the swastika for a long time in a way that was not close to what it later came to represent to most people. So it really wasn't a "Hitler salute," but more like a recognition of a civil/societal leader. Also, from what little I've read/watched, while Hitler's tactics were always thuggish (when he could get away with it), they weren't truly insane (so far as I've read) in the early 30's. I mean, the Orthodox (including many in ROCOR) in Germany were not that much more vocal contra Hitler, were they?


Mo

Quote
Over 20,000,000 Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. (Read " The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer

Well, I've not read William Shirer, but I have read Solzhenitsyn, and it seems to me that if his account in the Gulag Archipelago (not to mention lots of Orthodox religious books I've read) were at all accurate, then the Soviets sacrificed millions, so I'm not sure that the Nazis can be fully blamed for that. I think it'd be more accurate to say that Stalin, Lenin, et al. killed 20 million, and that Hitler and his ilk had a part to play.
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« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2006, 12:27:29 AM »

Might one ask what your source is for this information?  I am interested since it was Francis Xavier who was the first Christian missionary to Japan in 1549.  I have not seen any mention of "forced conversions" in India.

Ebor

For the sake of convenience, this is from a Wikipedia article:
"Portuguese missionaries, who reached the Malabar Coast in the late 15th century, made contact with the St Thomas Christians in Kerala, and sought to introduce among them the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. Throughout this period, foreign missionaries also made many new converts to Christianity. Early Roman Catholic missionaries, particularly the Portuguese, led by the Jesuit St Francis Xavier (1506-52), expanded from their bases on the west coast making many converts. However unlike present missionaries who seek to convert the lower castes and outcastes, Portuguese missionaries sought to convert the entire Hindu population of Goa. St. Francis Xavier, in a 1545 letter to John III of Portugal, requested for an Inquisition to be installed in Goa. However, it was not installed until after eight years of Francis Xavier's death. During the Goa Inquisition under the Portuguese, Hindus were forced to convert and thousands of Hindus in Goa who refused or were suspected of practising heresy were burned alive in public.Thus present Goa has a huge Roman Catholic population.The undecayed body of Saint Francis Xavier is still on public view in a glass coffin at the Basilica of Bom Jesus in Goa.
Beginning in the eighteenth century, Protestant missionaries began to work throughout India, leading to the growth of Christian communities of many varieties."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India#In_the_Early_Modern_Period

The modern Indian Orthodox Church is the descendant of those who rebelled against the Roman Church's oppression. More historical information can be found at http://www.indianchristianity.org

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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2006, 05:09:01 AM »


But much like the swastika, the salute given in this picture did not become associated predominantly with Hitler until after his madness during the late 30's/early 40's. I remember reading one time that many people used this type of salute with no evil intention meant, as people also used the swastika for a long time in a way that was not close to what it later came to represent to most people. So it really wasn't a "Hitler salute," but more like a recognition of a civil/societal leader.
I'm always disagreeing with Mathew777, so it seems, but not this time. You've completely missed the point of him dating the photos. If the picture was "Catholic priests give salute" and the caption contiuned "1846" you'd have a point.

That salute was associated with fascists from the 1920s (in Italy) and then adopted by the Nazis. Although it is similar to the "Olympic salute" which is the hand in the same outstretched way, but with the arm fully horitzontal.

Also, from what little I've read/watched, while Hitler's tactics were always thuggish (when he could get away with it), they weren't truly insane (so far as I've read) in the early 30's.
He'd already been advocating liebenstraum and the purification of the races

I mean, the Orthodox (including many in ROCOR) in Germany were not that much more vocal contra Hitler, were they?
How many Orthodox were in Germany? Please post statistics.

Mo

Well, I've not read William Shirer, but I have read Solzhenitsyn, and it seems to me that if his account in the Gulag Archipelago (not to mention lots of Orthodox religious books I've read) were at all accurate, then the Soviets sacrificed millions, so I'm not sure that the Nazis can be fully blamed for that. I think it'd be more accurate to say that Stalin, Lenin, et al. killed 20 million, and that Hitler and his ilk had a part to play.
What connection is there between Stalin killing millions and the church supporting the Nazis?
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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2006, 07:17:49 AM »

Orthodox Genocide
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

Don't think that this is over...
Christians (all) are still being persecuted
http://www.persecution.net/

« Last Edit: April 01, 2006, 07:18:59 AM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2006, 08:07:20 AM »

Estimates of the number of Serbian Orthodox who were butchered by the Croatian Pavelic regime range from 700,000 to 800,000. This sounds insignificant in contrast to the greater number of Jews who went to the extermination camps, but let's not forget the relative size of the Balkan area when contrasted with the greater land mass of Western Europe. In addition, I have yet to see any numbers posted as to the tally of Russian prisoners of war who were likewise gassed. We should also note that not a single one of the genocidal criminals of the Balkans ever went to Nuremberg. Pavelic himself died comfortably in his bed in a Madrid hotel suite in 1959 (I think that was the year. Not sure.), having allegedly received sanctuary within the Vatican itself at the war's end.

When discussed within the context of any medium, the figure invariably thrown out is "six million Jews", with nary a mention that an additional five million non-Jews also suffered and died horribly (In fact, some reports claim that since the Ustashe lacked the industrial base and facilities to conduct rapid mass extermination akin to that of the Germans, they often resorted to beating their victims, including children, to death with claw hammers. Orthodox reportedly had the first three fingers of their right hands cut off to prevent them from crossing themselves, and women were gang-raped and crucified on trees in a sick mocking of their faith.) Mere recognition that the Jews do not have a monopoly on victimhood can easily brand one as an antisemite. In view of this, it is easy to see why the perception of disproportionate Jewish influence in our media exists today. Not a single American junior high school student, even in our most pathetic public schools, is ignorant of the Nazi holocaust. How many know about the Ustashe? Most have never heard of the Rape of Nanking or Stalin's starvation of five million Ukrainian farmers. I guess they're not as newsworthy. But even so innocuous a statement as that is hysterically categorized as antisemitism.

I would venture to argue that the mass murder in the Balkans is a greater historical tragedy simply because the world still does not know it as such, and probably never will. This Orwellian erasure of history has been far too thorough and if any survivors of Jasenovac are still alive I fear they will no longer be before anyone decides to bring their stories into the light. The Ustashe were not prosecuted at Nuremberg, and to my knowledge none of the Serbian victims were ever compensated in any way. Where is their memorial? Only in their own country would there have been any, and most likely they would have been destroyed by the indiscriminate NATO bombings in an attempt to assist KLA terrorists.

Incidentally, in nearby Westchester county, New York there is a parochial school named for Stepinac. He should have been Milosevic's cellmate IMHO.
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« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2006, 02:45:48 AM »

Untrue. Over 20,000,000 Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. (Read " The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer) . Perhaps youve spent too much time watching  History Channel and too little time reviewing historical record.

Don't you think that a distinction should be made between the Holocaust and those killed as a result of warfare? When I referred to the Holocaust I was thinking of death camps and not people killed due to the conflict. Your 20 million Russians were certainly not all slaughtered in cold blood in death camps. I find your assumption of my ignorance on this issue insulting. For your information, I do not watch the history channel, almost half of my family were condemned as 'Untermenschen' to slave labour in an ammunition factory and we lost one member of the family to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. If anyone here has a right to rail about the unfairness of concentrating on the Jewish suffering only then I do and yet I will not do so because they did lose greater numbers than anyone else in the death camps. Conflating military losses with the holocaust does not do anyone any favours and only makes you look partisan. I am unwilling to massage the figures in the way you seem only too happy to. Every life lost is a tragedy, whether they were Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, the mentally ill, whatever, but cold blooded slaughter of civilians is not the same as killing in combat and WWII is not the same as the Holocaust.

James
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« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2006, 09:50:03 PM »

Hi can I just say Im a serb from Croatia and that I have great-uncles and grandparents that were in that concentration camp Jasenovac? It is easily proven that even the Germans were appauled by what went on in Croatia. Ante Pavelic said- "Convert a third, kill a third, cast away a third and we will have a 100% Catholic state in 50 years" ....theyre at about 90% right now.

Some serb historians claim up to 1 million were killed, while more conservative histiorians agree that it is mos tlikely between 500 000-800 000

May they rest in peace.
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