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Author Topic: Orthodox Christians in the Holocaust  (Read 6061 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: March 29, 2006, 01:33:54 AM »

I'd like to know why our teachers never taught us of the thousands of Orthodox Christians who were murdered in the Holocaust for refusing to accept the Roman Church. I don't think our educational system is controlled by some vast Jewish conspiracy, but it is kind of strange how Jews are the only ones given classroom time on this subject.

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2006, 03:02:51 AM »

I'd like to know why our teachers never taught us of the thousands of Orthodox Christians who were murdered in the Holocaust for refusing to accept the Roman Church. I don't think our educational system is controlled by some vast Jewish conspiracy, but it is kind of strange how Jews are the only ones given classroom time on this subject.

Peace.

Why don't our teachers tell us anything much of any of the other holocaust victims? I don't think you should single out any particular group. There is too much of an emphasis on the Jewish victims (because we shouldn't just ignore all the others who were killed) but they did lose the greatest numbers so perhaps this is not so surprising. I say this as a relative of one of the non-Jewish holocaust victims who was gassed at Auschwitz. I wish people knew more about those victims but I'm not willing to minimise the sufferings of the Jews to make a point of it.

James
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2006, 03:09:50 AM »

I don't think that the suffering of any group should be ignored but perhaps more classroom time should be given to discussing the other groups besides Jews. It's not like the suffering of a Jewish person is more important than that of a Jehovah's Witness or homosexual.
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2006, 09:23:22 AM »

No, you're right, it isn't more important, but
A) the journey and history of the Jewish people is important to history because of their assimilation into so many European cultures, and their place/role in the Middle East;
B) because most European cultures are Christian, they will place a certain amount of importance into tracking what the Jewish people have done;
C) the holocaust has become part of the Jewish identity, since they were targeted so aggresively and openly;
D) the Jewish lobby is quite important in most of the nations of Europe and the US - I'm not making a judgment call, just an observation;
E) because the holocaust was so bad for Jews, and because of their neglect and abuse by Europeans in the past, there was almost an insistance by many to only focus on what happened to the Jews in the holocaust renderings.

I'm not trying to make a value judgment, just a series of observations from my study of history, that's all.  You're right, though, that public consciousness is needed on the fact that, like, hundreds of thousands of Poles, and Russians, and tens of thousands of Greeks, and Serbs, died in the concentration camps, and hundreds of thousands if not more Greeks died of forced starvation in their own country, et al.
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2006, 03:26:37 PM »

M777, see here http://www.jasenovac.org/whatwasjasenovac/index.asp
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2006, 05:56:27 PM »

D) the Jewish lobby is quite important in most of the nations of Europe and the US - I'm not making a judgment call, just an observation;

What is the extent of Jewish influence in public policy as a religious and ethnic group? This is something that I've wondered about while still remaining sensitive to the issue.


Thank you, this is something we all must learn about.

Peace.
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2006, 09:45:21 PM »

I posted this topic in Catholic Answers Forums under the title "Roman Catholic involvement in the Holocaust" and it was deleted. I will continue to re-post this topic until either someone replies or I am banned.
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2006, 12:04:21 AM »

There was also in WWI a devastating Holocaust of the Armenians, to which it hasn't been brought to my attention until I went on the internet.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2006, 12:07:06 AM »

The Armenians in our town have an annual memorial for the Armenian Holocaust.
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2006, 02:48:15 AM »

There was also in WWI a devastating Holocaust of the Armenians, to which it hasn't been brought to my attention until I went on the internet.

God bless.

Mina
The Turks are in denial mode (like the Japanese about their own role in WWII)

One Turkish writer recently spoke up and faced the weight of Turkish law

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP106606
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2006, 03:07:54 AM »


A Cardinal marches with the German Nazis


Croatian Ustashi fuehrer Ante Pavelic giving Nazi salute (far left) with Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac (far right) and other Catholic Church leaders


Priests give Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.


Catholic clergy and Nazi officials, including Joseph Goebbels (far right) and Wilhelm Frick (second from right), give the Nazi salute. Germany, date uncertain.
[Photo source, Holocaust Encyclopedia,]


Adolf Hitler converses with the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, at a New Year's reception in Berlin. (January 1, 1935)
[Photo source, US Holocaust Museum]

Peace.
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2006, 03:59:58 AM »

It's official, I've been banned from Catholic Answers forum for telling the truth about Catholic involvement in the Holocaust.

Peace.
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2006, 04:13:25 AM »

There was also in WWI a devastating Holocaust of the Armenians, to which it hasn't been brought to my attention until I went on the internet.

God bless.

Mina
During the same period Greeks of pontos and from minor Asia in general were suffer the same as Armenians from the turks.George Horton US general consultant of Smyrna (a man of dignity)  in his books gives many details for this horrible crime that took place against the native inhabitants of minor Asia during WWI.
 This devastating holocaust is unknown even among many Greeks.(in Greece and abroad)
As far as i am concern about the Jews Holocaust i agree 100% with the emphasis that is been given in the Schoolbooks to this horrible action and at the same moment i think that the same emphasis  must be given to the other victims of Nazi era  (Greeks ,Serbs, Russians,homosexuals,retarded people i am deeply regret for those i don't mention).
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2006, 04:30:54 AM »

During the same period Greeks of pontos and from minor Asia in general were suffer the same as Armenians from the turks.George Horton US general consultant of Smyrna (a man of dignity)  in his books gives many details for this horrible crime that took place against the native inhabitants of minor Asia during WWI.
 This devastating holocaust is unknown even among many Greeks.(in Greece and abroad)
As far as i am concern about the Jews Holocaust i agree 100% with the emphasis that is been given in the Schoolbooks to this horrible action and at the same moment i think that the same emphasis  must be given to the other victims of Nazi era  (Greeks ,Serbs, Russians,homosexuals,retarded people i am deeply regret for those i don't mention).

I think that there was a film recently made about this. And there's a film made about Armenia called "Ararat"
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2006, 04:31:24 AM »

It's official, I've been banned from Catholic Answers forum for telling the truth about Catholic involvement in the Holocaust.

Peace.

Do you have a web-site for the photos?
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2006, 04:43:18 AM »

I think that there was a film recently made about this. And there's a film made about Armenia called "Ararat"
I didn't know about this.maybe something is moving after so long  Undecided.I will have it in my mind.TY!
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2006, 09:12:30 PM »

Do you have a web-site for the photos?

Yes, please read my latest blog entry.

Peace.
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2006, 10:25:34 AM »

It's official, I've been banned from Catholic Answers forum for telling the truth about Catholic involvement in the Holocaust.

Could it have been that you were banned for breaking forum rules? ÂÂ

It can be comforting to think that others do not like us because we are "right", but sometimes there may be other factors involved with our own behaviour..

Maybe I just read more, but the information about the Armenians and the Pontic Greeks and the Gypsies/retarded/all the other groups deemed "unfit" is not hidden nor newly found.

Have you ever heard of "The White Rose" by the way?  A German student resistance group that was eventually caught, tried and executed by guillotine. Or Dietrich Bonhoeffer? The Nazi government would kill anyone they didn't like. ÂÂ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2006, 11:50:16 AM »


A Cardinal marches with the German Nazis


Croatian Ustashi fuehrer Ante Pavelic giving Nazi salute (far left) with Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac (far right) and other Catholic Church leaders


Priests give Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.


Catholic clergy and Nazi officials, including Joseph Goebbels (far right) and Wilhelm Frick (second from right), give the Nazi salute. Germany, date uncertain.
[Photo source, Holocaust Encyclopedia,]


Adolf Hitler converses with the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, at a New Year's reception in Berlin. (January 1, 1935)
[Photo source, US Holocaust Museum]

Peace.

Anachronistic.
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2006, 01:45:05 PM »

I don't think the photos prove that the Catholics were indeed involved in the Holocaust.  The whole German nation praised Hitler the same way, but the camps and the anti-Jewish rhetoric I suppose were not of German nature, but some Hitler's inner circle of Nazi killer camps.

Didn't Polish Catholics suffer the same devestations as the Jews?  I would wonder how these priests and cardinals felt when they were praising someone, and they had no idea they were killing their own brothers in the faith.

Unless, you can prove that these Catholics indeed were bigots and supported the death camps.

I'm basically giving the Catholics the benefit of the doubt, but I may be wrong.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2006, 01:59:48 PM »

FWIW, I know of at least one Catholic saint who died in a Nazi concentration camp--Auschwitz, I believe.  Fr. Maximilian Kolbe is reported to have been imprisoned in Auschwitz and to have volunteered his life to the starvation chamber in place of a Jew who was sentenced to die.
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2006, 03:18:13 PM »

Could it have been that you were banned for breaking forum rules? ÂÂ

Would our own forum rules prevent outsiders from posting atrocities committed by Orthodox Christians?

Peace.
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2006, 03:20:30 PM »

Unless, you can prove that these Catholics indeed were bigots and supported the death camps.

The Roman Catholic theocracy in Croatia supported the slaughter of thousands of Orthodox Christians, Jews and other groups. Evidence has been provided in this thread.

Peace.
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2006, 03:21:26 PM »

FWIW, I know of at least one Catholic saint who died in a Nazi concentration camp--Auschwitz, I believe.  Fr. Maximilian Kolbe is reported to have been imprisoned in Auschwitz and to have volunteered his life to the starvation chamber in place of a Jew who was sentenced to die.

The valient actions of certain Catholics does not negate the Vatican's failure to oppose the Nazi regime.
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2006, 03:30:31 PM »

Would our own forum rules prevent outsiders from posting atrocities committed by Orthodox Christians?

Depends on how it was presented just for starters.  "Outsiders" (to use your own word) coming to a privately run forum purporting to show how terrible EO were with perhaps an attitude of "Your Church is evil" might not be looked favourable.

Why should a stranger be allowed free rein and not be held to any rules of good behaviour.  It's also possible that the people on that forum are aware of such accusations and do not consider their site the place for them.  

How did *you* write your posts?  You say it was "The Truth". They might have seen it as "bashing".

Ebor
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2006, 03:32:34 PM »

The valient actions of certain Catholics does not negate the Vatican's failure to oppose the Nazi regime.

Out of idle curiosity, have you read any RC works on the doings in WWII? Or any works from a secular historian?  ÃƒÆ’‚ Have you looked at any other angles or opinions?



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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2006, 03:33:29 PM »

"Outsiders" (to use your own word) coming to a privately run forum purporting to show how terrible EO were with perhaps an attitude of "Your Church is evil" might not be looked favourable.

I did not accuse the Roman Church of being evil and did not intend to.

How did *you* write your posts?  You say it was "The Truth". They might have seen it as "bashing".

I posted the same pictures and articles provided on this thread and my blog. Surprisingly, the majority of those who responded had never heard of the crimes committed.

Peace.
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2006, 03:34:41 PM »

Out of idle curiosity, have you read any RC works on the doings in WWII? Or any works from a secular historian?   Have you looked at any other angles or opinions?

Do you know what a smokescreen is? The question is whether or not the Vatican supported, either directly or indirectly, the Nazi-Catholic theocracy of Croatia.
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2006, 03:41:47 PM »

Do you know what a smokescreen is? The question is whether or not the Vatican supported, either directly or indirectly, the Nazi-Catholic theocracy of Croatia.

Yes, I know what a "smokescreen" is, thank you.  There are competant historians who look at questions like that which you put forth.  

If you repeatedly posted something on a forum that the owners did not want, I'm not surprised that they banned you though.  People *have* been banned here for breaking the OC.net rules.

Ebor
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2006, 04:02:05 PM »

The Roman Catholic theocracy in Croatia supported the slaughter of thousands of Orthodox Christians, Jews and other groups. Evidence has been provided in this thread.

Peace.


Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2006, 04:06:21 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?

Could be, but the Vatican hasn't made things better by moving "Bishop" Stepinac on an accelerated track to sainthood.
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2006, 04:09:47 PM »

Could be, but the Vatican hasn't made things better by moving "Bishop" Stepinac on an accelerated track to sainthood.

I know nothing of this issue.  Who was "Bishop" Stepinac, and why is he so notorious?
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2006, 04:10:37 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?

That is a good question, Peter.  Nationalism in many countries has lead to bad things happening.  A mode of "Our Ethnic Group/nationality/party-Good. They're "Other"-Bad" is unfortunately very common in history.

Ebor
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2006, 06:09:38 PM »

That is a good question, Peter.  Nationalism in many countries has lead to bad things happening.  A mode of "Our Ethnic Group/nationality/party-Good. They're "Other"-Bad" is unfortunately very common in history.

Ebor

Yeah.  I've seen here in the USA how nationalism can even infect the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2006, 07:36:36 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?
Croatian nationalism's always gone hand in hand with Catholicism. They were the Slavs who came under control of the Catholic powers.
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2006, 08:59:52 PM »

Croatian nationalism's always gone hand in hand with Catholicism. They were the Slavs who came under control of the Catholic powers.

Kinda like so many Old World cultures that identify Orthodoxy and national identity so closely together.  This may be one of the negative products of the close tie that developed between Church and state in the Byzantine Empire.
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2006, 09:15:11 PM »

Not to belittle whatever atrocities Catholics perpetrated against Orthodox during the Holocaust, but I think we should remember that our own Orthodox Church is not unstained by the blood of genocide, either.  What of the many anti-Semitic pogroms that took place in "Holy Russia" when Russians, in the name of the Orthodox Church, raided Jewish villages or synagogues, killing many of the villagers/worshipers merely because they were Jewish?  This has happened in Russia even since the fall of the Soviet Union a mere 16 years ago.
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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2006, 10:10:14 PM »

ÂÂ  but they did lose the greatest numbers so perhaps this is not so surprising.

James
Untrue. Over 20,000,000 Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. (Read " The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer) . Perhaps you`ve spent too much time watching  History Channel and too little time reviewing historical record.
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2006, 11:32:19 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?

Yes, that is possible. But why didn't the Vatican protest it?
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2006, 11:34:43 PM »

Could be, but the Vatican hasn't made things better by moving "Bishop" Stepinac on an accelerated track to sainthood.

Why? What did he do? He couldn't have done anything that bad as a bishop for the RCC to consider sainting him...

My mom has many devout Croation Catholic freinds and we might get together with some of them some time next week and I want to ask them very diplomatically about this guy. I'll google him but I know I'll get stuff syaing he's either a saint or the devil incarnate thats why I ask here.
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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2006, 11:39:17 PM »

For a feature film on the Vatican's failure to denounce the Nazi regime, I'd recommend Amen:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009W0W4/qid=1143862640/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-6886524-4815815?v=glance&s=dvd

The film ends with a cardinal explaining to an S.S. officer how he can avoid the tribunals by fleeing to Argentina.

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« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2006, 11:43:21 PM »

He couldn't have done anything that bad as a bishop for the RCC to consider sainting him...

As far as I know, St. Francis Xavier forced the conversion of Indian Orthodox Christians to Roman Catholicism. The Roman Church doesn't always make wise choices in canonizing its saints.

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« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2006, 11:57:32 PM »

For a feature film on the Vatican's failure to denounce the Nazi regime, I'd recommend Amen:

It's a fictional story. It's not a historical documentary.  According to the Trivia section of IMDB on this movie:

"The movie is based on a play by German playwright Rolf Hochhuth which started a lot of heated discussions and arguments after its first release in 1963. It even caused some diplomatic tensions"

It is not clear just how much is based on reality or historical research.  It may be a fine movie, but that doesn't make it's portrayal of any cardinals true.


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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2006, 12:00:41 AM »

Why? What did he do? He couldn't have done anything that bad as a bishop for the RCC to consider sainting him...

My mom has many devout Croation Catholic freinds and we might get together with some of them some time next week and I want to ask them very diplomatically about this guy. I'll google him but I know I'll get stuff syaing he's either a saint or the devil incarnate thats why I ask here.
Timos,

There is a lot I have to say on this subject and a lot I cannot (I'm actually caught up in the middle of some litigation right on point), so I can talk specifics, but suffice it to say, there are at least 5 remaining survivors from Jasenovac (3 Serb, 2 Jews), who specifically implicate "Bishop" Stepinac.  God willing, there story will be told before the end of the year.

I think this article and the related links, will give you sufficient proof to form an opinion on the fine Bishop. http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/stepinac/
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2006, 12:02:00 AM »

As far as I know, St. Francis Xavier forced the conversion of Indian Orthodox Christians to Roman Catholicism. The Roman Church doesn't always make wise choices in canonizing its saints.

Might one ask what your source is for this information?  I am interested since it was Francis Xavier who was the first Christian missionary to Japan in 1549.  I have not seen any mention of "forced conversions" in India.

Ebor
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2006, 12:04:23 AM »

Specifically, see below...

STEPINAC'S PERSONAL CULPABILITY
As archbishop of Zagreb and military vicar to the armed forces and the Ustashe, Stepinac was the de facto head of the Catholic Church in Croatia during the Second World War. In a regime that counted its Catholicism as the core of its national identity, the Archbishop's importance and influence in the events that transpired there during and after the war were substantial.

There is no question that he initially welcomed the establishment of the Ustashe state as the fulfillment of centuries of Croatian aspirations for independence. In a pastoral letter published less than a month after the founding of the NDH, Stepinac consecrates and legitimizes the new regime:


For as confused as today's fateful events may be, as varying as the factors may be that have influence on the course of events, one can nonetheless see the working of the divine hand.
 

He likewise lauded the enactment of Catholic dogma into law that marked the initial stages of the regime. He looked with particular favor on laws that meted out the death penalty for abortion and 30 day in jail for swearing.  There is no doubt either that he welcomed the elimination of religious tolerance. In a diary entry that details his first meeting with the poglavnik Stepinac notes with evident approval the coming suppression of rival faiths.

The Archbishop gave his blessing for his work.... When the Archbishop had finished, the poglavnik answered that he wanted to give all his help to the Catholic Church. He also said the would uproot the sect of Old Catholics which was nothing more than a society for divorce. He went on to say that he would not show tolerance toward the Orthodox Serbian Church because, as he saw things, it was not a church but a political organization. All this left the Archbishop with the impression that the poglavnik was a sincere Catholic and that the Church would have freedom of action, even if the Archbishop did not delude himself into thinking that all these things could happen easily.
 

The religious intolerance of the Ustashe continued to be a major factor in Stepinac's support for the regime throughout the war. At one point, he complained bitterly that the Italian fascist troops that were occupying a portion of Croatia during the war were allowing so much religious freedom that it was threatening the stability of the state. To the Bishop of Mostar Stepinac wrote,

The Italians have returned and resumed civil and military authority. The schismatic Churches have immediately come to life again, and the Orthodox priests, in hiding up till now, have reappeared in freedom. The Italians seem to be favorably disposed toward Serbs and severe toward Catholics.
 

He addressed a similar complaint to the Minister for Italian Affairs at Zagreb:

It so happens that in the Croatian territory annexed to Italy a constant decline in religious life is to be observed, and a certain discernible shift from Catholicism to schism. If that most Catholic part of Croatia should cease in the future to be so, the blame and the responsibility before God and history will lie with Catholic Italy. The religious aspect of the problem I am discussing makes it my duty to speak in such plain and open terms, since I am responsible for the religious well-being of Croatia.

Stepinac also explored the possibilities for enriching the church at the expense of its dispossessed Orthodox rivals. The Archbishop specifically petitioned the poglavnik to hand over the Orahovica Serb monastery to Trappists whom Hitler had expelled from their monastery at Reichenberg.
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/features/essays/psg.html
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2006, 12:18:59 AM »

Bogo

I don't know the full history behind many of the pictures you posted (I much prefer ancient history to modern history... though there was a very interesting show on British forces in Iraq during one of the World Wars tonight... but I'm digressing). Anyway, I'm not sure where you got the pics from or who wrote the captions, but some of them are anachronistic. For example:

Quote
Priests give Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.

But much like the swastika, the salute given in this picture did not become associated predominantly with Hitler until after his madness during the late 30's/early 40's. I remember reading one time that many people used this type of salute with no evil intention meant, as people also used the swastika for a long time in a way that was not close to what it later came to represent to most people. So it really wasn't a "Hitler salute," but more like a recognition of a civil/societal leader. Also, from what little I've read/watched, while Hitler's tactics were always thuggish (when he could get away with it), they weren't truly insane (so far as I've read) in the early 30's. I mean, the Orthodox (including many in ROCOR) in Germany were not that much more vocal contra Hitler, were they?


Mo

Quote
Over 20,000,000 Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. (Read " The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer

Well, I've not read William Shirer, but I have read Solzhenitsyn, and it seems to me that if his account in the Gulag Archipelago (not to mention lots of Orthodox religious books I've read) were at all accurate, then the Soviets sacrificed millions, so I'm not sure that the Nazis can be fully blamed for that. I think it'd be more accurate to say that Stalin, Lenin, et al. killed 20 million, and that Hitler and his ilk had a part to play.
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« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2006, 12:27:29 AM »

Might one ask what your source is for this information?  I am interested since it was Francis Xavier who was the first Christian missionary to Japan in 1549.  I have not seen any mention of "forced conversions" in India.

Ebor

For the sake of convenience, this is from a Wikipedia article:
"Portuguese missionaries, who reached the Malabar Coast in the late 15th century, made contact with the St Thomas Christians in Kerala, and sought to introduce among them the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church. Throughout this period, foreign missionaries also made many new converts to Christianity. Early Roman Catholic missionaries, particularly the Portuguese, led by the Jesuit St Francis Xavier (1506-52), expanded from their bases on the west coast making many converts. However unlike present missionaries who seek to convert the lower castes and outcastes, Portuguese missionaries sought to convert the entire Hindu population of Goa. St. Francis Xavier, in a 1545 letter to John III of Portugal, requested for an Inquisition to be installed in Goa. However, it was not installed until after eight years of Francis Xavier's death. During the Goa Inquisition under the Portuguese, Hindus were forced to convert and thousands of Hindus in Goa who refused or were suspected of practising heresy were burned alive in public.Thus present Goa has a huge Roman Catholic population.The undecayed body of Saint Francis Xavier is still on public view in a glass coffin at the Basilica of Bom Jesus in Goa.
Beginning in the eighteenth century, Protestant missionaries began to work throughout India, leading to the growth of Christian communities of many varieties."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India#In_the_Early_Modern_Period

The modern Indian Orthodox Church is the descendant of those who rebelled against the Roman Church's oppression. More historical information can be found at http://www.indianchristianity.org

Peace.
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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2006, 05:09:01 AM »


But much like the swastika, the salute given in this picture did not become associated predominantly with Hitler until after his madness during the late 30's/early 40's. I remember reading one time that many people used this type of salute with no evil intention meant, as people also used the swastika for a long time in a way that was not close to what it later came to represent to most people. So it really wasn't a "Hitler salute," but more like a recognition of a civil/societal leader.
I'm always disagreeing with Mathew777, so it seems, but not this time. You've completely missed the point of him dating the photos. If the picture was "Catholic priests give salute" and the caption contiuned "1846" you'd have a point.

That salute was associated with fascists from the 1920s (in Italy) and then adopted by the Nazis. Although it is similar to the "Olympic salute" which is the hand in the same outstretched way, but with the arm fully horitzontal.

Also, from what little I've read/watched, while Hitler's tactics were always thuggish (when he could get away with it), they weren't truly insane (so far as I've read) in the early 30's.
He'd already been advocating liebenstraum and the purification of the races

I mean, the Orthodox (including many in ROCOR) in Germany were not that much more vocal contra Hitler, were they?
How many Orthodox were in Germany? Please post statistics.

Mo

Well, I've not read William Shirer, but I have read Solzhenitsyn, and it seems to me that if his account in the Gulag Archipelago (not to mention lots of Orthodox religious books I've read) were at all accurate, then the Soviets sacrificed millions, so I'm not sure that the Nazis can be fully blamed for that. I think it'd be more accurate to say that Stalin, Lenin, et al. killed 20 million, and that Hitler and his ilk had a part to play.
What connection is there between Stalin killing millions and the church supporting the Nazis?
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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2006, 07:17:49 AM »

Orthodox Genocide
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

Don't think that this is over...
Christians (all) are still being persecuted
http://www.persecution.net/

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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2006, 08:07:20 AM »

Estimates of the number of Serbian Orthodox who were butchered by the Croatian Pavelic regime range from 700,000 to 800,000. This sounds insignificant in contrast to the greater number of Jews who went to the extermination camps, but let's not forget the relative size of the Balkan area when contrasted with the greater land mass of Western Europe. In addition, I have yet to see any numbers posted as to the tally of Russian prisoners of war who were likewise gassed. We should also note that not a single one of the genocidal criminals of the Balkans ever went to Nuremberg. Pavelic himself died comfortably in his bed in a Madrid hotel suite in 1959 (I think that was the year. Not sure.), having allegedly received sanctuary within the Vatican itself at the war's end.

When discussed within the context of any medium, the figure invariably thrown out is "six million Jews", with nary a mention that an additional five million non-Jews also suffered and died horribly (In fact, some reports claim that since the Ustashe lacked the industrial base and facilities to conduct rapid mass extermination akin to that of the Germans, they often resorted to beating their victims, including children, to death with claw hammers. Orthodox reportedly had the first three fingers of their right hands cut off to prevent them from crossing themselves, and women were gang-raped and crucified on trees in a sick mocking of their faith.) Mere recognition that the Jews do not have a monopoly on victimhood can easily brand one as an antisemite. In view of this, it is easy to see why the perception of disproportionate Jewish influence in our media exists today. Not a single American junior high school student, even in our most pathetic public schools, is ignorant of the Nazi holocaust. How many know about the Ustashe? Most have never heard of the Rape of Nanking or Stalin's starvation of five million Ukrainian farmers. I guess they're not as newsworthy. But even so innocuous a statement as that is hysterically categorized as antisemitism.

I would venture to argue that the mass murder in the Balkans is a greater historical tragedy simply because the world still does not know it as such, and probably never will. This Orwellian erasure of history has been far too thorough and if any survivors of Jasenovac are still alive I fear they will no longer be before anyone decides to bring their stories into the light. The Ustashe were not prosecuted at Nuremberg, and to my knowledge none of the Serbian victims were ever compensated in any way. Where is their memorial? Only in their own country would there have been any, and most likely they would have been destroyed by the indiscriminate NATO bombings in an attempt to assist KLA terrorists.

Incidentally, in nearby Westchester county, New York there is a parochial school named for Stepinac. He should have been Milosevic's cellmate IMHO.
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« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2006, 02:45:48 AM »

Untrue. Over 20,000,000 Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. (Read " The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer) . Perhaps youve spent too much time watching  History Channel and too little time reviewing historical record.

Don't you think that a distinction should be made between the Holocaust and those killed as a result of warfare? When I referred to the Holocaust I was thinking of death camps and not people killed due to the conflict. Your 20 million Russians were certainly not all slaughtered in cold blood in death camps. I find your assumption of my ignorance on this issue insulting. For your information, I do not watch the history channel, almost half of my family were condemned as 'Untermenschen' to slave labour in an ammunition factory and we lost one member of the family to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. If anyone here has a right to rail about the unfairness of concentrating on the Jewish suffering only then I do and yet I will not do so because they did lose greater numbers than anyone else in the death camps. Conflating military losses with the holocaust does not do anyone any favours and only makes you look partisan. I am unwilling to massage the figures in the way you seem only too happy to. Every life lost is a tragedy, whether they were Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, the mentally ill, whatever, but cold blooded slaughter of civilians is not the same as killing in combat and WWII is not the same as the Holocaust.

James
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« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2006, 09:50:03 PM »

Hi can I just say Im a serb from Croatia and that I have great-uncles and grandparents that were in that concentration camp Jasenovac? It is easily proven that even the Germans were appauled by what went on in Croatia. Ante Pavelic said- "Convert a third, kill a third, cast away a third and we will have a 100% Catholic state in 50 years" ....theyre at about 90% right now.

Some serb historians claim up to 1 million were killed, while more conservative histiorians agree that it is mos tlikely between 500 000-800 000

May they rest in peace.
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