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Author Topic: Orthodox Christians in the Holocaust  (Read 5609 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: March 29, 2006, 01:33:54 AM »

I'd like to know why our teachers never taught us of the thousands of Orthodox Christians who were murdered in the Holocaust for refusing to accept the Roman Church. I don't think our educational system is controlled by some vast Jewish conspiracy, but it is kind of strange how Jews are the only ones given classroom time on this subject.

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2006, 03:02:51 AM »

I'd like to know why our teachers never taught us of the thousands of Orthodox Christians who were murdered in the Holocaust for refusing to accept the Roman Church. I don't think our educational system is controlled by some vast Jewish conspiracy, but it is kind of strange how Jews are the only ones given classroom time on this subject.

Peace.

Why don't our teachers tell us anything much of any of the other holocaust victims? I don't think you should single out any particular group. There is too much of an emphasis on the Jewish victims (because we shouldn't just ignore all the others who were killed) but they did lose the greatest numbers so perhaps this is not so surprising. I say this as a relative of one of the non-Jewish holocaust victims who was gassed at Auschwitz. I wish people knew more about those victims but I'm not willing to minimise the sufferings of the Jews to make a point of it.

James
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2006, 03:09:50 AM »

I don't think that the suffering of any group should be ignored but perhaps more classroom time should be given to discussing the other groups besides Jews. It's not like the suffering of a Jewish person is more important than that of a Jehovah's Witness or homosexual.
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2006, 09:23:22 AM »

No, you're right, it isn't more important, but
A) the journey and history of the Jewish people is important to history because of their assimilation into so many European cultures, and their place/role in the Middle East;
B) because most European cultures are Christian, they will place a certain amount of importance into tracking what the Jewish people have done;
C) the holocaust has become part of the Jewish identity, since they were targeted so aggresively and openly;
D) the Jewish lobby is quite important in most of the nations of Europe and the US - I'm not making a judgment call, just an observation;
E) because the holocaust was so bad for Jews, and because of their neglect and abuse by Europeans in the past, there was almost an insistance by many to only focus on what happened to the Jews in the holocaust renderings.

I'm not trying to make a value judgment, just a series of observations from my study of history, that's all.  You're right, though, that public consciousness is needed on the fact that, like, hundreds of thousands of Poles, and Russians, and tens of thousands of Greeks, and Serbs, died in the concentration camps, and hundreds of thousands if not more Greeks died of forced starvation in their own country, et al.
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2006, 03:26:37 PM »

M777, see here http://www.jasenovac.org/whatwasjasenovac/index.asp
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2006, 05:56:27 PM »

D) the Jewish lobby is quite important in most of the nations of Europe and the US - I'm not making a judgment call, just an observation;

What is the extent of Jewish influence in public policy as a religious and ethnic group? This is something that I've wondered about while still remaining sensitive to the issue.


Thank you, this is something we all must learn about.

Peace.
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2006, 09:45:21 PM »

I posted this topic in Catholic Answers Forums under the title "Roman Catholic involvement in the Holocaust" and it was deleted. I will continue to re-post this topic until either someone replies or I am banned.
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2006, 12:04:21 AM »

There was also in WWI a devastating Holocaust of the Armenians, to which it hasn't been brought to my attention until I went on the internet.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2006, 12:07:06 AM »

The Armenians in our town have an annual memorial for the Armenian Holocaust.
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2006, 02:48:15 AM »

There was also in WWI a devastating Holocaust of the Armenians, to which it hasn't been brought to my attention until I went on the internet.

God bless.

Mina
The Turks are in denial mode (like the Japanese about their own role in WWII)

One Turkish writer recently spoke up and faced the weight of Turkish law

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP106606
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2006, 03:07:54 AM »


A Cardinal marches with the German Nazis


Croatian Ustashi fuehrer Ante Pavelic giving Nazi salute (far left) with Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac (far right) and other Catholic Church leaders


Priests give Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.


Catholic clergy and Nazi officials, including Joseph Goebbels (far right) and Wilhelm Frick (second from right), give the Nazi salute. Germany, date uncertain.
[Photo source, Holocaust Encyclopedia,]


Adolf Hitler converses with the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, at a New Year's reception in Berlin. (January 1, 1935)
[Photo source, US Holocaust Museum]

Peace.
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2006, 03:59:58 AM »

It's official, I've been banned from Catholic Answers forum for telling the truth about Catholic involvement in the Holocaust.

Peace.
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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2006, 04:13:25 AM »

There was also in WWI a devastating Holocaust of the Armenians, to which it hasn't been brought to my attention until I went on the internet.

God bless.

Mina
During the same period Greeks of pontos and from minor Asia in general were suffer the same as Armenians from the turks.George Horton US general consultant of Smyrna (a man of dignity)  in his books gives many details for this horrible crime that took place against the native inhabitants of minor Asia during WWI.
 This devastating holocaust is unknown even among many Greeks.(in Greece and abroad)
As far as i am concern about the Jews Holocaust i agree 100% with the emphasis that is been given in the Schoolbooks to this horrible action and at the same moment i think that the same emphasis  must be given to the other victims of Nazi era  (Greeks ,Serbs, Russians,homosexuals,retarded people i am deeply regret for those i don't mention).
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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2006, 04:30:54 AM »

During the same period Greeks of pontos and from minor Asia in general were suffer the same as Armenians from the turks.George Horton US general consultant of Smyrna (a man of dignity)  in his books gives many details for this horrible crime that took place against the native inhabitants of minor Asia during WWI.
 This devastating holocaust is unknown even among many Greeks.(in Greece and abroad)
As far as i am concern about the Jews Holocaust i agree 100% with the emphasis that is been given in the Schoolbooks to this horrible action and at the same moment i think that the same emphasis  must be given to the other victims of Nazi era  (Greeks ,Serbs, Russians,homosexuals,retarded people i am deeply regret for those i don't mention).

I think that there was a film recently made about this. And there's a film made about Armenia called "Ararat"
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2006, 04:31:24 AM »

It's official, I've been banned from Catholic Answers forum for telling the truth about Catholic involvement in the Holocaust.

Peace.

Do you have a web-site for the photos?
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2006, 04:43:18 AM »

I think that there was a film recently made about this. And there's a film made about Armenia called "Ararat"
I didn't know about this.maybe something is moving after so long  Undecided.I will have it in my mind.TY!
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2006, 09:12:30 PM »

Do you have a web-site for the photos?

Yes, please read my latest blog entry.

Peace.
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2006, 10:25:34 AM »

It's official, I've been banned from Catholic Answers forum for telling the truth about Catholic involvement in the Holocaust.

Could it have been that you were banned for breaking forum rules? ÂÂ

It can be comforting to think that others do not like us because we are "right", but sometimes there may be other factors involved with our own behaviour..

Maybe I just read more, but the information about the Armenians and the Pontic Greeks and the Gypsies/retarded/all the other groups deemed "unfit" is not hidden nor newly found.

Have you ever heard of "The White Rose" by the way?  A German student resistance group that was eventually caught, tried and executed by guillotine. Or Dietrich Bonhoeffer? The Nazi government would kill anyone they didn't like. ÂÂ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2006, 11:50:16 AM »


A Cardinal marches with the German Nazis


Croatian Ustashi fuehrer Ante Pavelic giving Nazi salute (far left) with Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac (far right) and other Catholic Church leaders


Priests give Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.


Catholic clergy and Nazi officials, including Joseph Goebbels (far right) and Wilhelm Frick (second from right), give the Nazi salute. Germany, date uncertain.
[Photo source, Holocaust Encyclopedia,]


Adolf Hitler converses with the Papal Nuncio, Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, at a New Year's reception in Berlin. (January 1, 1935)
[Photo source, US Holocaust Museum]

Peace.

Anachronistic.
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2006, 01:45:05 PM »

I don't think the photos prove that the Catholics were indeed involved in the Holocaust.  The whole German nation praised Hitler the same way, but the camps and the anti-Jewish rhetoric I suppose were not of German nature, but some Hitler's inner circle of Nazi killer camps.

Didn't Polish Catholics suffer the same devestations as the Jews?  I would wonder how these priests and cardinals felt when they were praising someone, and they had no idea they were killing their own brothers in the faith.

Unless, you can prove that these Catholics indeed were bigots and supported the death camps.

I'm basically giving the Catholics the benefit of the doubt, but I may be wrong.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2006, 01:59:48 PM »

FWIW, I know of at least one Catholic saint who died in a Nazi concentration camp--Auschwitz, I believe.  Fr. Maximilian Kolbe is reported to have been imprisoned in Auschwitz and to have volunteered his life to the starvation chamber in place of a Jew who was sentenced to die.
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2006, 03:18:13 PM »

Could it have been that you were banned for breaking forum rules? ÂÂ

Would our own forum rules prevent outsiders from posting atrocities committed by Orthodox Christians?

Peace.
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2006, 03:20:30 PM »

Unless, you can prove that these Catholics indeed were bigots and supported the death camps.

The Roman Catholic theocracy in Croatia supported the slaughter of thousands of Orthodox Christians, Jews and other groups. Evidence has been provided in this thread.

Peace.
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2006, 03:21:26 PM »

FWIW, I know of at least one Catholic saint who died in a Nazi concentration camp--Auschwitz, I believe.  Fr. Maximilian Kolbe is reported to have been imprisoned in Auschwitz and to have volunteered his life to the starvation chamber in place of a Jew who was sentenced to die.

The valient actions of certain Catholics does not negate the Vatican's failure to oppose the Nazi regime.
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2006, 03:30:31 PM »

Would our own forum rules prevent outsiders from posting atrocities committed by Orthodox Christians?

Depends on how it was presented just for starters.  "Outsiders" (to use your own word) coming to a privately run forum purporting to show how terrible EO were with perhaps an attitude of "Your Church is evil" might not be looked favourable.

Why should a stranger be allowed free rein and not be held to any rules of good behaviour.  It's also possible that the people on that forum are aware of such accusations and do not consider their site the place for them.  

How did *you* write your posts?  You say it was "The Truth". They might have seen it as "bashing".

Ebor
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2006, 03:32:34 PM »

The valient actions of certain Catholics does not negate the Vatican's failure to oppose the Nazi regime.

Out of idle curiosity, have you read any RC works on the doings in WWII? Or any works from a secular historian?  ÃƒÆ’‚ Have you looked at any other angles or opinions?



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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2006, 03:33:29 PM »

"Outsiders" (to use your own word) coming to a privately run forum purporting to show how terrible EO were with perhaps an attitude of "Your Church is evil" might not be looked favourable.

I did not accuse the Roman Church of being evil and did not intend to.

How did *you* write your posts?  You say it was "The Truth". They might have seen it as "bashing".

I posted the same pictures and articles provided on this thread and my blog. Surprisingly, the majority of those who responded had never heard of the crimes committed.

Peace.
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2006, 03:34:41 PM »

Out of idle curiosity, have you read any RC works on the doings in WWII? Or any works from a secular historian?   Have you looked at any other angles or opinions?

Do you know what a smokescreen is? The question is whether or not the Vatican supported, either directly or indirectly, the Nazi-Catholic theocracy of Croatia.
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2006, 03:41:47 PM »

Do you know what a smokescreen is? The question is whether or not the Vatican supported, either directly or indirectly, the Nazi-Catholic theocracy of Croatia.

Yes, I know what a "smokescreen" is, thank you.  There are competant historians who look at questions like that which you put forth.  

If you repeatedly posted something on a forum that the owners did not want, I'm not surprised that they banned you though.  People *have* been banned here for breaking the OC.net rules.

Ebor
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2006, 04:02:05 PM »

The Roman Catholic theocracy in Croatia supported the slaughter of thousands of Orthodox Christians, Jews and other groups. Evidence has been provided in this thread.

Peace.


Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2006, 04:06:21 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?

Could be, but the Vatican hasn't made things better by moving "Bishop" Stepinac on an accelerated track to sainthood.
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2006, 04:09:47 PM »

Could be, but the Vatican hasn't made things better by moving "Bishop" Stepinac on an accelerated track to sainthood.

I know nothing of this issue.  Who was "Bishop" Stepinac, and why is he so notorious?
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2006, 04:10:37 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?

That is a good question, Peter.  Nationalism in many countries has lead to bad things happening.  A mode of "Our Ethnic Group/nationality/party-Good. They're "Other"-Bad" is unfortunately very common in history.

Ebor
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2006, 06:09:38 PM »

That is a good question, Peter.  Nationalism in many countries has lead to bad things happening.  A mode of "Our Ethnic Group/nationality/party-Good. They're "Other"-Bad" is unfortunately very common in history.

Ebor

Yeah.  I've seen here in the USA how nationalism can even infect the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2006, 07:36:36 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?
Croatian nationalism's always gone hand in hand with Catholicism. They were the Slavs who came under control of the Catholic powers.
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2006, 08:59:52 PM »

Croatian nationalism's always gone hand in hand with Catholicism. They were the Slavs who came under control of the Catholic powers.

Kinda like so many Old World cultures that identify Orthodoxy and national identity so closely together.  This may be one of the negative products of the close tie that developed between Church and state in the Byzantine Empire.
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2006, 09:15:11 PM »

Not to belittle whatever atrocities Catholics perpetrated against Orthodox during the Holocaust, but I think we should remember that our own Orthodox Church is not unstained by the blood of genocide, either.  What of the many anti-Semitic pogroms that took place in "Holy Russia" when Russians, in the name of the Orthodox Church, raided Jewish villages or synagogues, killing many of the villagers/worshipers merely because they were Jewish?  This has happened in Russia even since the fall of the Soviet Union a mere 16 years ago.
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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2006, 10:10:14 PM »

ÂÂ  but they did lose the greatest numbers so perhaps this is not so surprising.

James
Untrue. Over 20,000,000 Russians were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis. (Read " The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer) . Perhaps you`ve spent too much time watching  History Channel and too little time reviewing historical record.
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2006, 11:32:19 PM »

Could Croatia's nationalism be just as much at fault as Croatia's Catholicism?

Yes, that is possible. But why didn't the Vatican protest it?
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2006, 11:34:43 PM »

Could be, but the Vatican hasn't made things better by moving "Bishop" Stepinac on an accelerated track to sainthood.

Why? What did he do? He couldn't have done anything that bad as a bishop for the RCC to consider sainting him...

My mom has many devout Croation Catholic freinds and we might get together with some of them some time next week and I want to ask them very diplomatically about this guy. I'll google him but I know I'll get stuff syaing he's either a saint or the devil incarnate thats why I ask here.
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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2006, 11:39:17 PM »

For a feature film on the Vatican's failure to denounce the Nazi regime, I'd recommend Amen:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00009W0W4/qid=1143862640/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-6886524-4815815?v=glance&s=dvd

The film ends with a cardinal explaining to an S.S. officer how he can avoid the tribunals by fleeing to Argentina.

Peace.
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« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2006, 11:43:21 PM »

He couldn't have done anything that bad as a bishop for the RCC to consider sainting him...

As far as I know, St. Francis Xavier forced the conversion of Indian Orthodox Christians to Roman Catholicism. The Roman Church doesn't always make wise choices in canonizing its saints.

Peace.
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« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2006, 11:57:32 PM »

For a feature film on the Vatican's failure to denounce the Nazi regime, I'd recommend Amen:

It's a fictional story. It's not a historical documentary.  According to the Trivia section of IMDB on this movie:

"The movie is based on a play by German playwright Rolf Hochhuth which started a lot of heated discussions and arguments after its first release in 1963. It even caused some diplomatic tensions"

It is not clear just how much is based on reality or historical research.  It may be a fine movie, but that doesn't make it's portrayal of any cardinals true.


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« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2006, 12:00:41 AM »

Why? What did he do? He couldn't have done anything that bad as a bishop for the RCC to consider sainting him...

My mom has many devout Croation Catholic freinds and we might get together with some of them some time next week and I want to ask them very diplomatically about this guy. I'll google him but I know I'll get stuff syaing he's either a saint or the devil incarnate thats why I ask here.
Timos,

There is a lot I have to say on this subject and a lot I cannot (I'm actually caught up in the middle of some litigation right on point), so I can talk specifics, but suffice it to say, there are at least 5 remaining survivors from Jasenovac (3 Serb, 2 Jews), who specifically implicate "Bishop" Stepinac.  God willing, there story will be told before the end of the year.

I think this article and the related links, will give you sufficient proof to form an opinion on the fine Bishop. http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/stepinac/
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« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2006, 12:02:00 AM »

As far as I know, St. Francis Xavier forced the conversion of Indian Orthodox Christians to Roman Catholicism. The Roman Church doesn't always make wise choices in canonizing its saints.

Might one ask what your source is for this information?  I am interested since it was Francis Xavier who was the first Christian missionary to Japan in 1549.  I have not seen any mention of "forced conversions" in India.

Ebor
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