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Author Topic: Applying the law - strictly  (Read 1930 times) Average Rating: 0
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TomS
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« on: March 27, 2006, 10:28:36 AM »

Report: Sleep 'divorce' counts
Reports say Islamic couple must wait 100 days to remarry

NEW DELHI, India (Reuters) -- A Muslim couple in India have been told by local Islamic leaders they must separate after the husband "divorced" his wife in his sleep, the Press Trust of India reported.

Sohela Ansari told friends that her husband Aftab had uttered the word "talaq," or divorce, three times in his sleep, according to the report published in newspapers on Monday.

When local Islamic leaders got to hear, they said Aftab's words constituted a divorce under an Islamic procedure known as "triple talaq." The couple, married for 11 years with three children, were told they had to split.

The religious leaders ruled that if the couple wanted to remarry they would have to wait at least 100 days. Sohela would also have to spend a night with another man and be divorced by him in turn.

The couple, who live in the eastern state of West Bengal, have refused to obey the order and the issue has been referred to a local family counseling center.

India's minority Muslim population is governed by Islamic personal laws on issues such as marriage, divorce and property inheritance.

"This is a totally unnecessary controversy and the local 'community leaders' or whosoever has said it are totally ignorant of Islamic law," said Zafarul-Islam Khan, an Islamic scholar and editor of The Milli Gazette, a popular Muslim newspaper.

"The law clearly says any action under compulsion or in a state of intoxication has no effect. The case of someone uttering something while asleep falls under this category and will have no impact whatsoever," Khan told Reuters.

Copyright 2006 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2006, 10:35:22 AM »

LOL Good one.
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2006, 10:38:36 AM »

Hey does this work outside of muslim religion??  Grin  I think there's going to be mass-conversion to India.... Wink  
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2006, 10:41:56 AM »

I always found the Muslim procedure of divorce to be amusing in and of itself; this just proves that Islam has no boundaries in the realm of absurdity.
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2006, 12:21:06 PM »

can someone say "Fruedian slip"?  Cheesy

lol
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2006, 09:31:37 PM »

Tom, I normally love the articles you post - but this one is totally beyond that, probably the best one I've seen so far - just really funny stuff.  Thanks man!
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2006, 12:34:50 AM »

You and every arab on our campus.  I can't tell you how many people recieved e-mails from our arab friends on campus who found and sent this article to like everyone and their mother... Wink
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2006, 12:11:55 PM »

Yeah, let's all have a good laugh at those crazy Muslims. Maybe some day they'll be as good as we Westerners about that whole divorce thing. We make it so hard to get a divorce, and our divorce rates are so much lower.   Tongue Roll Eyes Grin
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2006, 12:33:20 PM »

Yeah, let's all have a good laugh at those crazy Muslims. Maybe some day they'll be as good as we Westerners about that whole divorce thing.

A western divorce is more holy than a moslem marriage.
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2006, 12:43:17 PM »

Probably true, I was mostly commenting on how we might want to get the speck out of our eye rather than laugh at the log in somone else's. Or, maybe our own situation should disgrace us enough that we would not make fun of the divorce practices in another place or culture.
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2006, 01:06:48 PM »

Probably true, I was mostly commenting on how we might want to get the speck out of our eye rather than laugh at the log in somone else's. Or, maybe our own situation should disgrace us enough that we would not make fun of the divorce practices in another place or culture.

I would normally agree with you; but, as I'm sure you're all too aware, I have this thing about Islam Wink
« Last Edit: March 29, 2006, 01:07:04 PM by greekischristian » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2006, 03:34:36 PM »

I've never heard of a western court forcing the husband to go through with his dream-state statements about divorce.  Have you? (genuinly interested in knowing if anyone has, i'd love to read the case... Smiley  )
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2006, 05:03:02 PM »

Yeah, let's all have a good laugh at those crazy Muslims. Maybe some day they'll be as good as we Westerners about that whole divorce thing. We make it so hard to get a divorce, and our divorce rates are so much lower. ÂÂ  Tongue Roll Eyes Grin

What's going on Asteriktos? Ever since you have apparently become agnostic, your logic has gone down-hill.

First of all, I thought this forum was called orthodoxchristianity.net, not thewesternworld.net; so please drop your consistent (yes, consistent, because you have tried it elsewhere) attempt to compare the beliefs/values/practises/norms of the Islamic religion to the beliefs/values/practises/norms of a particular society or culture that is not governed by Orthodox authorities enacting Orthodox principles; your arguments are clearly hanging on false analogies.

As far as I know, the Church only allows divorce in circumstances where one spouse has committed adultery or apostatised from the faith; these seem like very reasonable grounds to allow for a divorce. According to Islam, a man can divorce his wife for whatever reason he wants, whenever he wants; all he has to do, is say those three words. Islam has always been legalistic, so I'm not suprised that uttering those three words unconsciously or without intention, nonetheless qualifies for a valid divorce under Islam, even against the subjective will of both partners.

So unless you can explain to me why I, as a memeber of the Orthodox Christian Faith, am being hypocritical for mocking this obvious absurdity promoted and dictated by the laws and practises of the Islamic Faith, then I really see no valid basis to your charge.
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2006, 10:14:00 PM »

I have been agnostic for quite a while, it is only recently that I've been honest with myself and others Wink I'm not sure who is using false anologies... er, I'm not sure who is using analogies at all. Could you tell me the definition of the word analogy, and explain in what way I used one? Smiley Anyway, I merely pointed out that Christians generally have the same divorce rates as non-Christians. Some people (e.g., Fr. John Mack) like saying "OH HO! But not in traditional Orthodox societies!"   Well, yeah, that's true. It's also a red herring. I don't live in a "traditional Orthodox society" (e.g., 17th century Russia). I live in America. This board is mostly populated by Americans, or at least westerners. Maybe 5% live in nations which are predominantly Orthodox today (and having a majority officially Orthodox certainly does not even mean that the culture/society is Orthodox).

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As far as I know, the Church only allows divorce in circumstances where one spouse has committed adultery or apostatised from the faith;

This was not wholly true in past centuries, though it was the standard view. It certainly is not true today. I very seriously doubt that any priest today would condemn a woman as having committed a serious sin (which divorce is if not justified), for divorcing a man who is beating her and molesting their children. Of course, you could argue that such a man has apostacized from the faith, but that merely begs the question, who gets to decide how immoral one has to be to have apostacized? Can a man who spends half the income of the family and hours a day on gambling or booze or internet porn be considered an apostate and therefore potentially divorcable? You see, no one today follows this strict Biblical view that you seem to be asserting that the Orthodox Church follows. It's all bluster, what you are saying has absolutely no basis in reality.

Don't believe me? Call 10 priests in your area, and ask them if they would grant a divorce for something other than adultery and apostasy. I would be suprised if even 1 said those were the only two reasons. And if any do answer no, it's probably only because they take apostacy to be a catch-all term which could include dozens if not hundreds of different immoral and destructive acts.
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2006, 06:13:12 AM »

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I have been agnostic for quite a while, it is only recently that I've been honest with myself and others


When you truly convince yourself, then try and convince me.

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I'm not sure who is using false anologies... er, I'm not sure who is using analogies at all. Could you tell me the definition of the word analogy, and explain in what way I used one?

I intend the plain and general definition of “analogy”; there is nothing special or peculiar about how I use the term. Apparent ambiguity may lie in the manner you have employed it, as you have done so implicitly and indirectly; nonetheless you have surely employed a false analogy. It’s a rare occasion when one has to explain to another his or her own argument, but in this case, since you have asked so kindly, I shall.

You are attempting to argue that those ridiculing, mocking, and criticising the Muhammedians upon the basis of the case narrated in the article of the OP, are in fact being hypocrites. However, one may only qualify as a hypocrite if the facts or issues of the case being ridiculed, mocked and critisised, are analogous to the facts or issues of their own situation. If you admit to there being no implicit analogy at all, then you admit to there being no basis to your hypocrisy charge; you in fact refute your own argument. However, clearly there is an underlying analogy which you attempt to purport in support of your hypocrisy charge; it is simply a false one. The analogy in question is between divorce in the West and divorce in Islam. In case the structure of your own argument isn’t clear to you yet, allow me to break it down in simple terms:

“An Orthodox Christian is being hypocritical in mocking Islam for the fact that (X) the Islamic faith compels a man who utters ‘talaq’ three times unconsciously and without intention, to divorce his wife, since in (Y) the Orthodox Christian’s socio-cultural setting, divorce occurs frequently.”

Implicit analogy is between:

(X) Islamic faith compelling a man to divorce his wife on absurd grounds, and (Y) western society allowing for frequent divorce.

Relevant and significant dissimilarity:

(X) Relates to the values of a faith/religion, (Y) relates to society/culture irrelevant to the Orthodox Christian’s faith/religious values.

When an analogy is made between two objects for the purpose of supporting a particular argument, yet those two objects are dismilar in ways relevant and significant to the argument being made, then the analogy so attempted, is a false analogy.

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I very seriously doubt that any priest today would condemn a woman as having committed a serious sin (which divorce is if not justified), for divorcing a man who is beating her and molesting their children. Of course, you could argue that such a man has apostacized from the faith, but that merely begs the question, who gets to decide how immoral one has to be to have apostacized? Can a man who spends half the income of the family and hours a day on gambling or booze or internet porn be considered an apostate and therefore potentially divorcable? You see, no one today follows this strict Biblical view that you seem to be asserting that the Orthodox Church follows.

All you have proven via the examples you have mentioned, is that no one follows a legalistic view of Biblical regulations. That is a different thing to saying that the Church does not take the regulations as being seriously significant or relevant to the day; if exceptions are made in circumstances where such regulations would be to the detriment of the spiritual life of a particular spouse, or child, then that is a prudent and wise choice on behalf of the Church; a godly choice based upon a principle with Biblical precedent.

So let’s see where your logic leads us on this point:

“The Church of the Orthodox Christian makes wise and prudent exceptions to Biblical regulations, based upon principles grounded in Biblical precedent, for the sake of avoiding a legalistic application of such regulations that may, in those circumstances for which the exception is called, cause much harm and injustice to the parties in question, therefore, an Orthodox Christian is hypocritical in mocking a Muslim’s legalistic application to a regulation of the Islamic faith, which undoubtedly leads to evident absurdity, and in turn causes harm and injustice to the parties in question.”

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight……………………………..

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Don't believe me? Call 10 priests in your area, and ask them if they would grant a divorce for something other than adultery and apostasy.

I don’t know how relaxed the EO Church is about divorce; but I challenge you to call any and every priest or Bishop of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and I will guarantee you that they will make no general exceptions to divorce unless it be upon those that are Biblically regulated. If you try to posit hypothetical circumstances of an extremely special or peculiar nature (like the one’s you mentioned above) where our common sense of justice compels us to strongly consider making an exception, you will probably get a mix of answers, because such issues are simply not black and white. The fact of the matter is, however, that no general exception may be derived from such cases, since they are of such a peculiarly complex nature, and the Church will certainly not grant divorce for reasons like: "we've grown out of love", "we don't get along anymore, we argue all the time", "there's no chemistry between us, we have grown to hate eachother's personalities" etc. etc.
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2006, 12:13:04 PM »

Er, ok. You win. Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2006, 10:59:27 AM »

Ok, I'm prideful, so I'm going to take back my concession for a moment. Prideful people can't stand to think they're being misunderstood, don't you know!  You (EK) were putting words in my mouth. I did not say that the two situations were on equal playing fields, or were of equal moral badness. All I said was that the Christian side had it's own problems, which should be enough to make it think twice before casting stones at someone else. It might be like someone stealing $25 in office supplies from work, and then harshly rebuking or poking fun at the boss for embezzling $25,000 from the company. Yeah, the person could do that to the boss, but you'd think his own immoral behavior would be magnified (at least in his own mind) by the immoral activity of the boss, and he would remain ashamedly silent. That was basically my point, not that Christians are just as immoral or absurd, but that they are immoral or absurd enough as a community to prevent them from casting stones. Aftera all, Jesus didn't say "Let he who has no really really large sin, cast the first stone". And btw, I think you've done more damage to the Coptic Church than anyone else here, so stop acting like I'm attacking you, ok? Your comments about the rigidity of your beliefs (e.g., regarding divorce) cast a far worse light on you than I ever could.  And there are no Coptic churches around here; your people use our Eastern Orthodox parishes to attend and commune.  Tongue Anyway, I now reinstate the concession, for whatever it is worth.
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2006, 06:35:13 PM »

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Prideful people can't stand to think they're being misunderstood, don't you know!

I hope that you realise after reading this post that it would have looked better for your position had you just accepted whatever intentions you allege have been falsely imputed as being of your own, by virtue of the fact that those intentions at least dictate a valid structure of argument in theory, albeit a valid argument exercised invalidly (as the argument is not appropriate to the facts).

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You (EK) were putting words in my mouth.

No, not exactly. I was assuming that you were a logical person, with logical reasons underlying your remarks. My argument was thus with respect to the inapplicability of that logic to the facts. As you have made it quite clear however, it was wrong for me to assume that you were logical; my bad. I now have to deal with faulty logic faultily applied to the facts. Gotcha.

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I did not say that the two situations were on equal playing fields, or were of equal moral badness.

That’s nice to know. Would you like to know what may be nicer to know? How about the fact I never implied that that had to be case? Better yet, how about the fact I expressly stated that what was needed was simply a relevant similarity? For example, ummm…ummm…like, a similarity regarding the source of the values/principles promoting the problem in question (religion vs. culture vs. society).

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All I said was that the Christian side had it's own problems, which should be enough to make it think twice before casting stones at someone else.

Ohhhhhhh…we’re talking about Christianity now, and not Western society. I’m glad you’ve decided to change your line of argument. But wait a second, I already exposed the absurdity of basing your argument on religious grounds anyway, when I said:

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So let’s see where your logic leads us on this point:

“The Church of the Orthodox Christian makes wise and prudent exceptions to Biblical regulations, based upon principles grounded in Biblical precedent, for the sake of avoiding a legalistic application of such regulations that may, in those circumstances for which the exception is called, cause much harm and injustice to the parties in question, therefore, an Orthodox Christian is hypocritical in mocking a Muslim’s legalistic application to a regulation of the Islamic faith, which undoubtedly leads to evident absurdity, and in turn causes harm and injustice to the parties in question.”

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight……………………………..

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It might be like someone stealing

No it’s nothing like that. Your example is merely based on an act X which is of exactly the same kind as act Y, yet greater in magnitude than act Y. I am telling you, that there is simply no relationship whatsoever between divorce Orthodox style and divorce Islamic style in principle or nature. Try again buddy.

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And btw, I think you've done more damage to the Coptic Church than anyone else here

I’m sure H.H. Pope Shenouda III appreciates your concern.

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so stop acting like I'm attacking you, ok?

And when did I do that, exactly? Enlighten me, please.

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Your comments about the rigidity of your beliefs (e.g., regarding divorce) cast a far worse light on you than I ever could.

Hey, they’re just the facts buddy, you can interpret those facts as you will; that is neither my problem nor my concern — I honestly couldn’t care less. Those facts will remain facts, and is it upon the basis of them being facts that I relay them and not any other. I have a lady attending my parish who has been "separated" from her husband for 6 years now, because the Church won't grant her a divorce; she left her husband because of financial and fertility issues. If you don't like how the Coptic Orthodox Church dealt with this situation, then good for you! When the Coptic Orthodox Church starts to care about what other people think, i'll make sure they take into account the review of an EO turned agnostic.
   
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And there are no Coptic churches around here your people use our Eastern Orthodox parishes to attend and commune.

Well that’s unfortunate for them, but one’s gotta do what one’s gotta do. What is your point?

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Anyway, I now reinstate the concession, for whatever it is worth.

Why man? Because you don’t want to be “prideful”? Come on, you’re an agnostic now; where did your God prescribe virtues of humility? Don’t cop-out on me now. The only basis upon which I would advise you to avoid being prideful, is not that it’s bad for your soul, but rather that your arguments suck i.e. you have nothing to be prideful about.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 06:36:40 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
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