OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 27, 2014, 08:35:54 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Messianic Judaism?  (Read 8243 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mathetes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Believer
Jurisdiction: MJAA
Posts: 161



« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2006, 02:00:47 AM »

Actually, it's neither western nor new, but was the view of all of Christianity from about 70 AD forward. I suppose that once the Temple was destroyed, and the Jewish people were scattered and exiled all over the near east, it wasn't that hard to get the Jews (probably most of them Greek Jews) that were left to go along with a more Hellenized form of Christianity. After all, many of Paul's words can be used to show that there wasn't a superiority in Jewish custom anyway, so why go through all the bother?

If, as an agnostic, you doubt God's existence, a thread about Messianic Judaism may seem bothersome.  As an inquirer and Bible-believer, however, I look to the apostles and Scripture as authoritative and infallible, and I want to follow their guidance as regards questions raised in this thread: How did the apostles view and treat those Jews who, while believing in Jesus, were zealous for the Law or Torah?  How should we view and treat people who today identify themselves as Messianic Jews?  If they are spiritually kin to the early Jewish believers, should we treat them as the apostles did?

I'm not alone in considering these questions.  When Fr. Peter Hocken of the Roman Catholic Church visited my hometown last year, he addressed some of these things.  Unless I'm mistaken, the RCC is renouncing Replacement Theology and reaching out to Messianic Jews.  You or other readers of this thread may want to check out Fr. Hocken's article The Rise of "Messianic Judaism."

In Christ,
Mathetes

P.S. Since the apostles hardly used the term "Christian," why do you think the true faith was known as Christianity in A.D. 70?

 ÃƒÆ’‚Â
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 02:16:21 AM by mathetes » Logged

"Iron sharpens iron, and a man sharpens the countenance of his friend" (Proverbs 27:17 OSB).

"The future isn't what it used to be" (Yogi Berra).
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,237


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2006, 04:52:45 AM »

Quote
If, as an agnostic, you doubt God's existence, a thread about Messianic Judaism may seem bothersome.

If it was bothersome, I wouldn't be reading or posting Wink

Quote
I want to follow their guidance as regards questions raised in this thread: How did the apostles view and treat those Jews who, while believing in Jesus, were zealous for the Law or Torah?

By all accounts, with great respect. In fact, even the (religious) Jews treated such Christian Jews with great respect in the Apostolic age, as seems to be implied by the circumstances surrounding martyrdom of James, the half-brother of Jesus. Nonetheless, shortly after the Apostolic age things clearly changed direction drastically. Things like the hours of prayer, liturgy, psalms, etc. were retained, but other things such as praying at the synagogue (in additional to Christian house meetings) quickly fell into disuse, or was purposely abandoned.  Some, like Elaine Pagels, would go much further in their beliefs on the matter, though I would disagree.

Quote
How should we view and treat people who today identify themselves as Messianic Jews?

I'm not sure what you mean by "treat them" here. Obviously they should be respected as human beings, given a fair hearing, allowed to express themselves as they want, and so forth. On the other hand, if by "treat them" you mean ecclesiastically, then I don't see why Orthodox would treat them as Orthodox, or Catholics as Catholic, or Lutherans as Lutheran. For better or worse, certain Jewish aspects of Christianity have not been practiced for nineteen hundred years, and being an older tradition or custom does not make it better, and more worthy of practicing or belief. To be frank, ecclesiastically (not personally), I would treat a Messianic Jew as a Jewish fellow who sincerely wanted to follow the person he thinks is the Messiah, but is doing so in a decidedly low-church Protestantesque ("let's read some books and try to recreate the Apostolic age") type of way.

Quote
P.S. Since the apostles hardly used the term "Christian," why do you think the true faith was known as Christianity in A.D. 70?

I don't know that it was called Christianity then, but I do know that the term was around by then, and that by the end of the first century it was in common use among at least some prominent Christians (such as Ignatius, who uses the term in many of his letters, such as his Epistle to the Ephesians). In Acts the Church is called "the way," but I don't think that it matters much what you call it, or when it was called what.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 04:53:55 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

"I haven't done anything wrong, and I won't be hounded by you and your soulless minions of orthodoxy! I haven't broken any laws... except perhaps the laws of nature." - Dr. Elias Giger
MBZ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 160


« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2006, 10:00:36 AM »

Hi all

Quote from: SouthSerb99
Hey, slow down, Mister "I'm in Israel getting ready for bed".  It's only 11am in NYC!!! Not even SS99, the glutton, eats that early! Tongue

Oops...oh yeah...that 7 hour difference...sorry!

So...how'd it go? Smiley

Quote from: StBrigid
How is blasphemy defined?  Wouldn't, for example, belief in the Trinity constitute blasphemy?

I don't think so, at least not in my book.  Blasphemy would be insulting God, denying His omnipotence & omniscience, etc.  I kinda doubt that my Eastern Orthodox friends go in for that kind of stuff much!

Quote from: mathetes
Not all Jewish people reject Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism.

Not everything that any given Jew says or believes is necessarily a part of, or necessarily jibes with, traditional, normative (i.e. orthodox) Judaism.  Because a Jew says/believes it, doesn't necessarily make it Judaism.

Quote from: mathetes
Reformed Rabbi Dan Cohn-Sherbok...

This proves my point.  "Reform" Judaism is heresy.  Do you let heretics define the normative beliefs of your faith?  This man may call himself "Rabbi" and some "Reform" rabbinical college may have seen fit to confer that title on him but neither makes him a Rabbi.

Quote from: mathetes
...may help us see whether Jews who trusted in Christ should be regarded as no longer Jewish.

Just as you are fully entitled to decide who is a Christian or not, we will decide who is a Jew or not.  A Jew who trusts in Christ is still a Jew (provided his birthmother was a Jew or he underwent an orthodox conversion); he is a heretic, but he is still a Jew.  However his beliefs are not Judaism.

Howzat?

Be well!

MBZ
Logged

"Peace, peace to him that is far off and to him that is near." [Isaiah 57:19]

"Gather your wits and hold on fast..." [The Who]

"Lose your dreams and you could lose your mind." [The Rolling Stones]

http://tinyurl.com/bvskq

[url=htt
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2006, 12:06:52 PM »

Hi all

Oops...oh yeah...that 7 hour difference...sorry!

So...how'd it go? Smiley
I didn't get a chance to enthral them with my new knowledge, because David wasn't present and he is usually the best one to talk to about these things.  To give you an idea, Michael (another partner) was complaining that he "can't eat lobster at his passover Sader".  You get the idea, right?  Shocked

Quote
This proves my point.  "Reform" Judaism is heresy.  Do you let heretics define the normative beliefs of your faith?  This man may call himself "Rabbi" and some "Reform" rabbinical college may have seen fit to confer that title on him but neither makes him a Rabbi.
Yes, quoting a "reform Rabbi" as being dispositive of Judaism is a bit like quoting one of these "Orthodox in name only" Churches as being dispositive of Orthodox Christianity.

For example, we used to have an "Orthodox" poster here, who attended an "Orthodox Church" which ordained women as priests etc...  Certainly not at all Orthodox.

Further example of this... another attorney here told me that when he went to Michael's reform synagogue (for his son's Bar Mitzvah), the Rabbi called up two men, to announce their union to the congregation, which culminated with a big ole SMOOCH, right there in the synagogue.  Again, not something I think the average Orthodox Jew would think was a part of the fabric of Judaism.

Quote
Just as you are fully entitled to decide who is a Christian or not, we will decide who is a Jew or not.  A Jew who trusts in Christ is still a Jew (provided his birthmother was a Jew or he underwent an orthodox conversion); he is a heretic, but he is still a Jew.  However his beliefs are not Judaism.
Agreed!
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
mathetes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Believer
Jurisdiction: MJAA
Posts: 161



« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2006, 06:24:12 AM »

Let us suppose that there was an organization started with fliers and billboards and ads and people showing up at churches called: "Christians for Mohammed".  Since the declaration that Mohammed is the Prophet of God and the final word is part of the formal conversion to Islam and it denies that Jesus is the Son of God, such a group would not be counted as "Christian".

Would that be a possibly similar idea?

You mean like "Christian Science"?   Wink
Logged

"Iron sharpens iron, and a man sharpens the countenance of his friend" (Proverbs 27:17 OSB).

"The future isn't what it used to be" (Yogi Berra).
mathetes
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Believer
Jurisdiction: MJAA
Posts: 161



« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2006, 07:23:43 AM »

Just as you are fully entitled to decide who is a Christian or not, we will decide who is a Jew or not.  A Jew who trusts in Christ is still a Jew (provided his birthmother was a Jew or he underwent an orthodox conversion); he is a heretic, but he is still a Jew.  However his beliefs are not Judaism.

Howzat?

Of course, the ultimate decision on who's who and who's what belongs to God.  Whatever He decides will stand, no matter how we have identified or classified ourselves.  He will separate the sheep from the goats, expose the wolves in sheep's clothing, and distinguish truth from error.

When it comes to identifying our Lord's disciples, I can eliminate people whose gross speech and conduct deny the Lord; but I can't be sure about all the people who claim to follow Him.  St. Paul taught, "Some men's sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later" ( 1 Timothy 5: 24, New King James Version ).

By God's grace, our overseers must decide which people to admit, ordain, discipline, or excommunicate.  During our sojourn here, however, these decisions are effective only within the groups overseen.  Regardless what our elders decide, outsiders and sometimes a few insiders may disagree.  So, it's not unusual to find different opinions on who's a Christian and what's Christianity.

I think the same holds true for decisions on who's Jewish and what's Judaism.  As a believer in the New Testament, I again follow St. Paul, who taught, "... He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision os that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [ "Jew" means praise ] is not from men but from God" ( Romans 2: 28, 29 ibid ).  The Orthodox Study Bible here comments:

Quote
2: 29  The name Jew is from "Judah," which means "the Lord be praised."  A true Jew seeks only praise ... from God.  ( A Gentile who keeps the natural law of the conscience is righteous and counted as a Jew.)  The legalist's goal is vainglory, praise from men; the spiritual man, Jew or Gentile, has the goal of pleasing God.  True circumcision, and true baptism, is of the heart, in the Spirit, leading from repentance to obedience.

Because I agree with all that and believe that Jesus is the Christ, I would say that Messianic Jews can live to God's praise and glory and that their doctrines and practices can be classified as a kind of Judaism.  Of course, my opinions have no force.

When it comes to the terms "Orthodox Judaism," "Conservative Judaism," "Reform Judaism," "Reconstructionist Judaism," and "Messianic Judaism"; I think we're dealing with retronyms, new words coined for an object or concept that's no longer unique.  So, I wouldn't say that Messianic Judaism is Reform or Orthodox Judaism, but I do consider it a kind of Judaism.

In Christ,
Mathetes



 
Logged

"Iron sharpens iron, and a man sharpens the countenance of his friend" (Proverbs 27:17 OSB).

"The future isn't what it used to be" (Yogi Berra).
MBZ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 160


« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2006, 10:26:30 AM »

Hi all!

Quote from: SouthSerb99
To give you an idea, Michael (another partner) was complaining that he "can't eat lobster at his Passover Seder".  You get the idea, right? Shocked

Gotcha.  ("can't eat lobster at the Passover Seder" Ohfercryinoutloud... Roll Eyes )

Quote from: SouthSerb99
Further example of this... another attorney here told me that when he went to Michael's reform synagogue (for his son's Bar Mitzvah), the Rabbi called up two men, to announce their union to the congregation, which culminated with a big ole SMOOCH, right there in the synagogue.

Why doesn't OC.net have a little barfing smiley?

Quote from: SouthSerb99
Again, not something I think the average Orthodox Jew would think was a part of the fabric of Judaism.

Uh...no, not at all. Smiley

Quote from: mathetes
Of course, the ultimate decision on who's who and who's what belongs to God...I think the same holds true for decisions on who's Jewish and what's Judaism.

Only God can decide who merits what in the hereafter.  But as far as "Who's a Jew?", while I acknowledge your opinion, I must respectfully disagree.  We believe that there are many things that God has given/delegated to our Sages to decide; see Deuteronomy 17:8-11 & 30:11-14.

I suppose that we'll have to (amicably!) file this one under "Agree-to-disagree".

Be well!

MBZ
Logged

"Peace, peace to him that is far off and to him that is near." [Isaiah 57:19]

"Gather your wits and hold on fast..." [The Who]

"Lose your dreams and you could lose your mind." [The Rolling Stones]

http://tinyurl.com/bvskq

[url=htt
Truth_or_Bust
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 63



« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2006, 11:39:19 AM »

M777,

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  As a result of working in an office where I'm the only non-Jewish attorney I can offer some of the things I have heard.  While only one of the other attorneys I would categorize as a "real" practicing Jew, the rest pretty much tow the same line of belief, which I suppose is a part of the "fabric" of growing up Jewish.

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  I know the guys in my office have a deep rooted dislike for Messianic Jews, because in their eyes, those Jews are following a false prophet and therefore are committing blasphemy against God.

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  To the traditional Jew it is not a fulfillment of God's promise, rather a fabrication against the promise.  In traditional Jewish circles, they anxiously await the "first coming" of the Moshiach.  I don't know how well versed you might be in Judaism, but let me throw a recent name at you; Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  He was the leader of a sect of Hasidic Judaism called Chabad Lubavitch or Lubavitchers (kind of slang).  They are amongst the most evangelical Jews I've ever met.  We have two young Lubavitchers come to our office every Friday, before Shabbat, to ask the other lawyers if they want to put on tfillin and say prayers.

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  In any event, when Rabbi Schneerson died, many with in the Lubavitcher community were convinced that he was the Moshiach, and starting putting forward that belief.  In fact, so strong was this belief, many Lubavitchers picked up and moved to the neighborhood where he was buried, so that they could be near Moshiach.  Quite interesting is the fact that the neighborhood was primarily African American prior to his death, and is almost exclusively comprised of Lubavitcher Jews.

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  My point is this... Jews are anxiously awaiting the arrival of the Messiah, that any notion that another person worships He who has already come, is blasphemous and worth of being ostracized.  In fact, they will go to extreme lengths to protect this value.

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  I remember years back, Jews for Jesus attempted to have themselves included in "Jewish events" (gatherings, religious events etc..).  It ultimately wound up in a New York State Court, with traditional Jews basically arguing that "Jews for Jesus" weren't Jewish at all.  While the Court never addressed the issue of whether or not they were Jews, proper, the Court did find that their beliefs differed sufficiently that "traditional" Jews were not required to include them in their events.  So, I'm not sure if this answers your question, but hopefully it adds some insight.

What makes this item even more interesting is that a hard core group of the Chabadniks say that Rabbi Schneerson will have a "second coming"!  I have seen debates between these hard cores and other Hassids and the second coming issue that the Chabadniks put forth really gets the opposing side quite upset because that argument can be applied to Christ!  I learned of this from the listening in on the Jewish "Anti-Missionaries" section on paltalk.com
Logged
MBZ
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 160


« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2006, 04:35:44 PM »

Hi all!

Quote from: M777
What makes this item even more interesting is that a hard core group of the Chabadniks say that Rabbi Schneerson will have a "second coming"!  I have seen debates between these hard cores and other Hassids and the second coming issue that the Chabadniks put forth really gets the opposing side quite upset because that argument can be applied to Christ!

Hence the bad joke among orthodox Jews that Chabad is the religion closest to Judaism.

These "hard cores" have gone off their Jewish rockers & have let their enthusiasm for their late teacher carry them into heresy.

Be well!

MBZ
Logged

"Peace, peace to him that is far off and to him that is near." [Isaiah 57:19]

"Gather your wits and hold on fast..." [The Who]

"Lose your dreams and you could lose your mind." [The Rolling Stones]

http://tinyurl.com/bvskq

[url=htt
Jetavan
Argumentum ad australopithecum
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Science to the Fourth Power
Jurisdiction: Ohayo Gozaimasu
Posts: 6,580


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2014, 11:59:35 AM »

Quote
LAWTON: Because of his spirituality and popularity, some Chabad followers saw Schneerson himself as a potential Messiah, and that belief persists in some quarters.

TELUSHKIN: To be truthful, there are some Chabadniks, some people within his movement, who believe that he will return from the dead. They’re hoping that when the dead are revived, he’ll be one of them and he’ll be revealed as the Messiah. I don’t see that affecting peoples’, any peoples’ behaviors on a day-to-day basis. When that day will come that the Messiah comes, we’ll find out. But I think it has greatly receded in significance.

-------------

"Did the Rebbe Identify Himself as the Messiah—and What Do His Hasidim Believe Today?"

"Telushkin goes on to explain. Maimonides, he says, provides criteria for a presumed messiah and for a definite messiah (a messiah “beyond all doubt” in Telushkin’s formulation). Since the definite messiah must gather all Jews to Israel and rebuild the Temple, it should be obvious that the Rebbe did not attain this status. What, then, do Lubavitch  Hasidim mean when they call him the messiah? The answer is that they mean only that he was the potential messiah for his generation. How, then, do some continue to believe that he is the messiah even after his passing? The answer is that they found a few sources legitimating the belief in a messiah who returns after his death to fulfill his mission."
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 12:04:34 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Tags: Messianic Judaism 
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.074 seconds with 38 queries.