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Author Topic: No kissing before marriage?  (Read 19142 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2006, 12:40:53 AM »

it seems like you're prone to always take an extreme view of what is being said, and it is affecting the direction of this conversation.  there isn't anything wrong with this per se, but I think this tendency is being read into other people's comments (like mine) where it isn't intended.  tell me if I'm wrong on this observation.
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« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2006, 12:51:00 AM »

it seems like you're prone to always take an extreme view of what is being said, and it is affecting the direction of this conversation. ÂÂ

Though you haven't claimed that kissing before marriage is wrong, others have. As far as I know, I would agree more with you than others.

Peace.
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« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2006, 12:52:43 AM »

Eh, what can I say.  What is nice about the site is you're able to get the whole spread of opinion, and use it to help your own.  But as I said, the real progress on a very personal issue like this will be made with the person in question, your spiritual guide, and lots of prayer.
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« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2006, 01:02:55 AM »

What is nice about the site is you're able to get the whole spread of opinion, and use it to help your own. ÂÂ

Exactly. I wouldn't have posted this thread if I were to ignore the opinions of fellow Orthodox youth.

 But as I said, the real progress on a very personal issue like this will be made with the person in question, your spiritual guide, and lots of prayer.

That is good advice, something I will do as soon as possible.

Peace.
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« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2006, 10:31:36 AM »

Exactly. I wouldn't have posted this thread if I were to ignore the opinions of fellow Orthodox youth.

Yeah. You will find a great deal of wisdom in youth ?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2006, 02:06:32 PM »

I'm always disappointed/amused to see Christians trying to basically justify sexual foreplay outside of the confines of marriage.  While a chaste peck on the cheek is one thing, toying with anything beyond this is quite another matter.  If I'm way off base here folks, tell me - would you "french kiss" your mother?  Your sister?  The Priest after Liturgy?  Such sexual acts, even if they don't end in "genital activity" are proper to marriage.  Goodness knows, I'm sure more than a few Priests have had to hear confessions from young people whose sad tale begins with "well, it just started with some kissing."

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« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2006, 02:15:23 PM »

Matthew,

Quote
Kissing is a good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way, there is nothing inherently sinful about it.

How exactly is this different than the social degenerates who teach that it's good for unmarried people to see if they're "sexually compatable" before getting married?

Goodness, young people are so self deceptive in these matters (and not just the young either) - believe me Matthew, if a young couple are basically normal, love each other, and get married, they will have no problems sharing affection in a healthy way.  This "sex stuff" is not exactly new, y'know.

Quote
Not kissing because you refrain from pre-marital sex is like starving yourself from food out of fear of overeating.

No, it's more like not playing with matches next to a gas pump.  Besides, what are you "starving" from?  You do realize that the virtue of chastity in the unmarried is lived in the exact same way (ideally) as it is in those sworn to perpetual celibacy, no?  I know you OO's have monks, so this isn't a mystery to you.

Quote
If you are going to make the claim that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'd hope that you can back it up.

Simple - sexual kissing isn't appropriate.  And if you want a definition of just what that is (lest you be tempted to fool yourself), here it is - kissing someone in a way that you know full well wouldn't be appropriate (and just plain gross) if you were kissing your mother or your sister.
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« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2006, 02:18:10 PM »

Aurelia,

Quote
Trust me, if you don't at least try to kiss her, she's going to think you don't really like her.

Perhaps, if she doesn't understand her boyfriend's faith, and is used to associating such advances with genuine affection.

Quote
And yes there is a HUGE difference between romantic or even pretty passionate kissing and getting to the point where you really should get a room.

Ummm...what exactly?  Maybe it could be I'm simply "too good" at this for my own good (ask the wife) to see anything but a difference in degree, not kind.

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« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2006, 02:20:29 PM »

EnkhristosAnesti,

Quote
Like I said earlier, save yourself for your wife, completely, and she'll truly appreciate it. My fiancee and I always joke around about who loved the other first, in a competitive sense, but now I realise, that she truly loved me first, because she loved me before she even met me.

Very beautiful words my friend.  I guess we can say we agree on something here after all. Smiley

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« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2006, 02:32:22 PM »

TomS,

Quote
If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

Believe it or not, I agree with you here.  However, everything has a time and a place, if we're going to be children of God.

For example, it's also "natural" to be aggitated and feel violent passions when we are sorely challenged and threatened.  In some contexts, those feelings may serve us well (ex. we're being attacked by someone who intends to do us harm.)  However, this is sadly where the whole "fallen humanity" thing comes in - our "feelings" are not always in line or proportional with circumstances.  The same is true with sexual desire; otherwise, we'd only have to contend with such feelings after we say the "I do's"; in the same way, we'd never hear about people losing control of themselves and murdering one another over triffles.

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« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2006, 03:34:53 PM »

I'm always disappointed/amused to see Christians trying to basically justify sexual foreplay outside of the confines of marriage.

I hope you realize how extreme that sounds.

Kissing /=/ Sexual foreplay

Peace.
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« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2006, 03:40:14 PM »

I hope you realize how extreme that sounds.

Kissing /=/ Sexual foreplay

Peace.

Kissing in general is not. However, Augustine created a distinction between different types of kissing. By removing that distinction, you have misquoted his arguement.
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« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2006, 03:42:28 PM »

French kissing is not inherently sinful. I don't know why I'm still even discussing this. I'm going to go to a friend's house to watch gangster films.

Peace.
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« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2006, 03:53:51 PM »

French kissing is not inherently sinful. I don't know why I'm still even discussing this.

Well, then, besides marriage(/dating too if you wish), what purpose does it have?
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« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2006, 03:54:16 PM »

Quote
French kissing is not inherently sinful
I do not believe in a set of rules and a laundry list when it comes to orthodox practice of their faith, whether it appears in a life of purity, in a theological argument or whether it manifests itself in a virtue. The fruits come from a good tree, such is the golden rule for christianity.

If a person cannot discern whether french kissing (outside marriage) is sinful or not, and still believes he/she is orthodox while being lustful, he/she better checks the foundation again that brought such fruits. The fruits speaks volumes of the corruption of the values. This is still a better situation than actually acknowledging the error, yet choosing to defend the wrong point of view because one cannot overcome his/her passions, choosing therefore to try to make it "legal" and acceptable.
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« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2006, 04:13:35 AM »

Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time. I am the worst of all sinners and therefore, hope to learn whatever I must learn to avoid sin. But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it? If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Peace.
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« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2006, 05:37:25 AM »

Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time. I am the worst of all sinners and therefore, hope to learn whatever I must learn to avoid sin. But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it? If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Peace.

It is quite possible to enjoy life and follow Christ at the same time. There are also a number of ways one activity can exclude another. But I am still wondering what use French kissing has outside of marriage. If you find a use, perhaps then you will have a reasonable case for it.
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« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2006, 05:45:55 AM »

Pop quiz:

Threads created by Matthew get so popular because:

a) He's a popular guy.
b) His topics are hot.
c) He just never gets it.
d) No one else ever gets it.
e) He doesn't want to ever get it.
f) No one else ever wants to get it.
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« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2006, 05:52:11 AM »

But I am still wondering what use French kissing has outside of marriage.

What use does driving a mini-van have outside of marriage?
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« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2006, 05:53:51 AM »

What use does driving a mini-van have outside of marriage?

Transporting people. What does a mini-van have to do with marriage anyways? I think you're stereotyping....
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« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2006, 05:55:29 AM »

e)
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« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2006, 06:12:31 AM »

Here's the way I look at this stuff --

If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

All of these taboos were created by Men who saw their daughters simply as bargaining chips in order to obtain wealth and power. "Damaged goods" are worth nothing in the marketplace.


So we can throw out most of the Bible's prohibitions, because they're all man made! Shocked
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« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2006, 06:13:58 AM »

Theology IS ALL ABOUT debates!
Theology is about truths and defending them. You seem to think that long held truths are man-made
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« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2006, 06:15:24 AM »

Kissing will obviously feel different with someone you like more than a friend, more than you would a sister. When first dating someone, when you share your first kiss, it is a very good way to gauge whether you like that person more than a friend, whether you want to continue dating that person. It will obviously feel different. It's also good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way.

Peace.

That's assuming that it's healthy, and it's not... given that Jesus says one shouldn't be lustful before marriage.
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« Reply #114 on: March 28, 2006, 06:19:41 AM »

Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time. I am the worst of all sinners and therefore, hope to learn whatever I must learn to avoid sin.
Where in the Bible does it say "Let there be fun?" (certainly it can't be 'fun' if it's at the expense of your soul)

But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it?
You've already decided this, yet at the same time 'not', as you give it the means of testing someone's own feelings - and also to protect yourself from being labelled gay.

These are ulterior motives. If it's just 'innocent' why don't you try it with the next person you meet on a bus or train... see if it has any connotations.

If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Peace.
You've already done this by giving into your desires to test your 'potential mate's' own reactions.
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« Reply #115 on: March 28, 2006, 06:29:37 AM »

Matthew,

Though i've given up on you, i thought i'd give you one last shot; hopefully the words of a Bishop will have some weight for you. H.G Bishop Youssef was asked the following question by a certain youth:

Is it sinful for a female to kiss a male even if it feels good, satisfying and would be considered by me as a sign of affection and not sex?

To which he answered:

If kissing did not feel good no one would have the desire to do it. Like everything else in life there is a time and a season for everything. Kissing a guy who is not your husband is definitely wrong no matter how good it felt. Since you felt good this implies that you would not mind doing it again! And when you do it again, this ‘affection’ will not stop at kissing but you will desire more intimacy and as St. James says, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14).

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« Reply #116 on: March 28, 2006, 10:01:42 AM »

Theology is about truths and defending them. You seem to think that long held truths are man-made

Yes, I do.

So we can throw out most of the Bible's prohibitions, because they're all man made! Shocked

Not necessarily. Basic rules such as treat people well, do not kill, etc. are common tenants of a civilized sociery - They are relevant. However, passages and Church canons that related to a specific time in societal evolution are not.
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« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2006, 01:35:14 PM »

Matthew,

Quote
I hope you realize how extreme that sounds.

Kissing /=/ Sexual foreplay

No, what I said was "sexual kissing" = foreplay.  Nice try though... however, don't try and b.s. a b.s'er.

...And don't even try telling me it's not "sexual" - if it weren't you wouldn't be so antsy to do it.

Quote
French kissing is not inherently sinful. I don't know why I'm still even discussing this.

There's really no "nice" or "modest" way of putting this, but I'll try nonetheless.

Replace "french kissing" in that sentence with something obviously "(married!) adults only" [ here ] and see just how silly you sound.

"[ BEEP! ] is not inherently sinful.  I don't know why I'm still even discussing this."

As for why you're still discussing this, that's easy - either because you love to just stir "stuff", or because you're trying to convince yourself of something.  Fortunately, I think your conscience may be in better shape than some here have allowed you to convince them of.

Quote
Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time.

(putting the "let's see how dumb Matt sounds filter on")

"Sometimes, people are a little too 'Orthodox", not realizing that one can have lots of care free and consensual sex with many people, and love Christ at the same time."

Quote
But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it?

In the way you're referring to, within marriage, yes.

Quote
If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Yes, but the very nature/purpose of the act you're describing is to excite the passions (otherwise people wouldn't!) - which apart from the embrace of spouses is unlawful, precisely it cannot licitly end in a moral/God-pleasing end.  And even when it stays "just a kiss", it still involves a level of familiarity and potential future intimacies which are wholly unlawful to any save a man and woman married to one another.
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« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2006, 11:52:31 PM »

Yes, I do.
My prayers go out to you, then
Not necessarily. Basic rules such as treat people well, do not kill, etc. are common tenants of a civilized sociery - They are relevant. However, passages and Church canons that related to a specific time in societal evolution are not.
You sort of betray yourself by qualifying those groups as 'civilised'. You're sort of half arguing against any absolutes, but saying that there are (within the qualification of a particular group of societies).
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« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2006, 12:02:14 AM »

montalban,

A society or culture need not believe something absolutely for it to be binding on the entire society. You are saying that Tom is "sort of" this and "sort of" doing that and maybe saying this and maybe half arguing that. Why don't you just ask him, instead of assuming what he's saying? If Tom is saying what I think he's saying, I would agree with him completely, and it would not be a double standard in accepting or denying absolutes.
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« Reply #120 on: March 29, 2006, 12:25:26 AM »

Though i've given up on you

That's very good. There is no reason for you to worry over me. Enjoy your life and walk in the Lord's path.

hopefully the words of a Bishop will have some weight for you.

The words of one bishop do not necessarily provide the consensus of the Church as a whole, something that I've been hoping to see. I thank you for sharing and hope the best for you and your bride. Marriage honestly scares me, especially having a father like mine, and I find your devotion to your boo to be commendable.

Tonight, I went to a lady's house to watch Goodfellas. She offered me a ride home so I gave her a peck on the cheek before leaving the car. She thanked me. What's there to thank me for? If I had just shaked her hand, her reaction may have been different. I've actually ended dates with handshakes before and it's always unexpected, like I did something uncool or wrong.

Peace.
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« Reply #121 on: March 29, 2006, 02:43:51 AM »

montalban,

A society or culture need not believe something absolutely for it to be binding on the entire society. You are saying that Tom is "sort of" this and "sort of" doing that and maybe saying this and maybe half arguing that. Why don't you just ask him, instead of assuming what he's saying? If Tom is saying what I think he's saying, I would agree with him completely, and it would not be a double standard in accepting or denying absolutes.
I am quite happy to continue to posit what I believe him to be saying. If he wished to correct me, then he's merely correcting my perception.

And as it stands I disagree with what seems to be an idea that Christian truth is relative.
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« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2006, 11:45:06 AM »

Quote
I am quite happy to continue to posit what I believe him to be saying.

Yeah, that's so much more in line with a truth seeker and lover of knowledge than actually asking someone for clarification of what they believe  Grin  Roll Eyes

Quote
If he wished to correct me, then he's merely correcting my perception.

But the point is, he shouldn't have to correct you. It's a dirty debating tactic. You leave a charge or accusation out there, and then if he doesn't respond people are more likely to remember the charge than to remember that silence doesn't validate the charge. It's sort of like someone asking "Did you get off welfare yet?" If the person doesn't answer, and there could be many reasons that they would not answer, then the impression left with the audience will be "I guess he didn't". However, this is not necessarily true. Similarly, you leave this charge out there, and then basically are trying to force Tom to answer you, or otherwise you will consider yourself correct. This is intellectually dishonest.

I might also add another logical irregularity that has been bugging me on OC.net among all these mighty debaters  Grin Roll Eyes  Someone using an ad hominem does not mean that a person must have a weak argument. Whoever thinks this needs to get a refund for their Philosophy 101 course that they're taking, because it's not doing much good (other than teaching them to be filled with strife, an unChristian characteristic the last time I read Paul's epistles). Someone might use an ad hominem if their position is weak or untenable, but there is nothing whatsoever preventing a person with a very strong position from also using an ad hominem. Indeed, if you read the Fathers, they often make ad hominem attacks (e.g., positing evil intentions in heretics, not just sincere but wrong beliefs...)  Launching an ad hominem most times has nothing to do with the weakness or strength of an argument, but with the mindset of the person doing the launching. Sometimes, for example, no matter how strong the argument, a person nonetheless can't resist taking a personal jab at a particularly antagonistic person who thinks they're all that.

Quote
And as it stands I disagree with what seems to be an idea that Christian truth is relative.

Well, Christian truth would be contextual, not relative, and not absolute. Just like any other truth.
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« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2006, 03:32:38 PM »

Nice article, who wrote it?  
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« Reply #124 on: March 29, 2006, 11:49:44 PM »

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Tonight, I went to a lady's house to watch Goodfellas. She offered me a ride home so I gave her a peck on the cheek before leaving the car. She thanked me. What's there to thank me for? If I had just shaked her hand, her reaction may have been different. I've actually ended dates with handshakes before and it's always unexpected, like I did something uncool or wrong.

Hmmm...a peck in the cheek is way different from french kissing if you ask me.  I don't find anything wrong with a simple peck in the cheek of your own gf, since it's no different than what you do to your own mother.

However, if she expects you to french kiss, then it's no different than people who look at you weird if you don't go to bed with them, even during engagement.

God bless.

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« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2006, 12:12:54 AM »

It was my own thoughts, some of which closely related to Tom's, which is why I thought I'd re-enter the fray at this point.

I do apologize to Montalban for being rude earlier. I don't know what to say other than it was a bad day (as the rest of my posts today show), and I admit that I was being obnoxious.
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« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2006, 02:03:07 AM »

However, if she expects you to french kiss, then it's no different than people who look at you weird if you don't go to bed with them, even during engagement.

I'd wait until at least the third date to french kiss and sex, until marriage, would be out of the question. This isn't about falling to societal pressure but a matter of personal preference. Preferences, however, can be changed.

Peace.
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« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2006, 02:19:20 AM »

Sex isn't really that important. It's just important because we make it important in our heads. We think we will be fulfilled through it. I guess maybe you will be. But you can also learn to get fulfillment and joy out of other activities.
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« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2006, 02:25:06 AM »

Yeah, that's so much more in line with a truth seeker and lover of knowledge than actually asking someone for clarification of what they believe
You're championing a non-cause.
But the point is, he shouldn't have to correct you. It's a dirty debating tactic. You leave a charge or accusation out there, and then if he doesn't respond people are more likely to remember the charge than to remember that silence doesn't validate the charge. It's sort of like someone asking "Did you get off welfare yet?" If the person doesn't answer, and there could be many reasons that they would not answer, then the impression left with the audience will be "I guess he didn't". However, this is not necessarily true. Similarly, you leave this charge out there, and then basically are trying to force Tom to answer you, or otherwise you will consider yourself correct. This is intellectually dishonest.
If I said "You said this..." it is different from saying "My understanding of what you say is this", only you can't see the difference.
I might also add another logical irregularity that has been bugging me on OC.net among all these mighty debaters  ÃƒÆ’‚ Someone using an ad hominem does not mean that a person must have a weak argument. Whoever thinks this needs to get a refund for their Philosophy 101 course that they're taking, because it's not doing much good (other than teaching them to be filled with strife, an unChristian characteristic the last time I read Paul's epistles). Someone might use an ad hominem if their position is weak or untenable, but there is nothing whatsoever preventing a person with a very strong position from also using an ad hominem. Indeed, if you read the Fathers, they often make ad hominem attacks (e.g., positing evil intentions in heretics, not just sincere but wrong beliefs...)  Launching an ad hominem most times has nothing to do with the weakness or strength of an argument, but with the mindset of the person doing the launching. Sometimes, for example, no matter how strong the argument, a person nonetheless can't resist taking a personal jab at a particularly antagonistic person who thinks they're all that.
Irony going on about ad homs just after words about me being dishonest etc.
You need to find yourself another cause bellum
Well, Christian truth would be contextual, not relative, and not absolute. Just like any other truth.
Christian truth is absolutely true. That's why I'm a Christian. Your article starts off correctly, 'we' are all fallible. However God is not. God says "I am" and that is true. It is true absolutely.
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« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2006, 02:49:58 AM »

Further to Asteriktos' anti-(traditionalist) Christian stance, Jesus Christ promised that the body of the Church would be without error, and we Orthodox hold that this is true. It is absolutely true, because the Church is the Body of Christ here on earth.
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« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2006, 02:58:04 AM »

I'd wait until at least the third date to french kiss and sex, until marriage, would be out of the question. This isn't about falling to societal pressure but a matter of personal preference. Preferences, however, can be changed.

Peace.

If it's really about "personal preference," you shouldn't have even mentioned how weird woman think of you when you don't do it. Wink

Secondly, sometimes you have to admit that personal preference is sometimes the wrong preference if not guided by spiritual guidance and Tradition.

God bless you.
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« Reply #131 on: March 30, 2006, 03:10:15 AM »

Sex isn't really that important.

Of course, which is precisely why pre-marital sex isn't worth the risks.

Peace.
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« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2006, 03:16:56 AM »

If it's really about "personal preference," you shouldn't have even mentioned how weird woman think of you when you don't do it. Wink

That's part of it, obviously. Unless a man at least tries to kiss a woman, she'll feel uncertain as to whether he finds her attractive. Kissing, in that respect, is where I'd draw the line. A woman should also know that I respect her enough to not dump on her the baggage that comes with pre-marital sex.

Peace.
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« Reply #133 on: March 30, 2006, 04:29:21 AM »

Sex isn't really that important. It's just important because we make it important in our heads. We think we will be fulfilled through it. I guess maybe you will be. But you can also learn to get fulfillment and joy out of other activities.
Ah the destruction of real truths and the creation of relative truths. Of course a statement about there being no real truths is itself to make a paradox.




What is truth?" inquired Pilate of the incarnate Truth, wanting to hear with his own ears that which he did not perceive with his eyes, as though it was not the same soul that was hearing through his ears and seeing through his eyes. The God-man Christ is the Truth, not as word, neither as teaching nor as concrete energy, but as a most perfect and eternally living divine-human Hypostasis. It is only as a theanthropic Personality that He is the criterion of truth. It is for this reason that the God-man not only said, "I am the Truth," but also that, "I am the Way" (Jn. 14:6), that is, He is the way to Truth itself, the criterion of Truth itself, the essence of Truth itself. The criterion of Truth is the Truth itself, and the Truth is the God-man Christ. Thus, whatever does not come from Him is not from the Truth. The Truth cannot ontologically exist outside of his divine-human personality. Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ by Fr. (St.) Justin Popovich
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« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2006, 06:57:52 AM »

That's part of it, obviously. Unless a man at least tries to kiss a woman, she'll feel uncertain as to whether he finds her attractive. Kissing, in that respect, is where I'd draw the line. A woman should also know that I respect her enough to not dump on her the baggage that comes with pre-marital sex.

Peace.


Maybe you hang around with dumb women - I only say this because I think women are a lot smarter than what you seem to think; able to pick up on whether you're interested in them - even if you don't kiss them
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