OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 01, 2014, 02:21:12 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: No kissing before marriage?  (Read 18942 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2006, 02:37:45 AM »

"Romance" with touching is not allowed before marriage.  It's part of what St. Paul says "due affection."

Try not to give in to society's pressures or your own human weaknesses.  Overcoming them shows your true side as an Orthodox Christian (or a Christian in general).

God bless.

Mina
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2006, 02:37:59 AM »

Seriously, if you were in front of me, and you tried to tell me that I don't really know if I love my wife-to-be, in spite of the sacrifices made and the risks taken just to get engaged, by virtue of the fact I haven't kissed her on the lips yet, i'd probably be tempted to hit you.
 

Wouldn't this be different for different couples? I'd have to right to tell you what you and your female do and do not have. You most likely have something that most young people could only dream of.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2006, 02:38:49 AM »

True, but the danger lies when one appeals to the weakness of our human nature as an excuse to justify their flawed actions (which is the impression i got from the arguments made by Asteriktos). The weakness of our fallen humanity, is at most, merely an explanation accounting for the occurence of such flawed actions.

This is in fact what Matthew777 is appealing to; you need to show you're not gay by kissing. An appeal to please (or change the perceptions of) others
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2006, 02:40:51 AM »

Wouldn't this be different for different couples? I'd have to right to tell you what you and your female do and do not have. You most likely have something that most young people could only dream of.

Peace.

When Christ conquered temptation on the mountain, and suffered whips and nails, is that something that we can only "dream of," or is it something we train ourselves to look forward to?

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:41:03 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2006, 02:41:32 AM »

Try not to give in to society's pressures or your own human weaknesses.

I don't think the desire to kiss someone is a weakness and neither do societal pressures matter when it comes to love and dating. As far as I've seen, this issue isn't black and white and should be judged on a case by case basis.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2006, 02:42:49 AM »

In saying that kissing is a "flawed action", you might as well claim that five fingers are four. I will discuss with my priest about this matter.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:43:35 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2006, 02:43:19 AM »

I don't think the desire to kiss someone is a weakness and neither do societal pressures matter when it comes to love and dating. As far as I've seen, this issue isn't black and white and should be judged on a case by case basis.

But you're making it a necessity to prove people around you, including your own girlfriend that you're not gay/asexual.

God bless.

Mina
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2006, 02:45:17 AM »

But you're making it a necessity to prove people around you, including your own girlfriend that you're not gay/asexual.

God bless.

Mina

Kissing obviously feels different if with a lover rather than a sister. How do you know you are romantically interested in someone without kissing? Some people may be able to but it's something I've never seen nor thought of. If you kiss for the first time and it doesn't feel right, like it is not the right person for you, then you've definitely learned something.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:46:22 AM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2006, 02:51:53 AM »

Kissing obviously feels different if with a lover rather than a sister. How do you know you are romantically interested in someone without kissing? Some people may be able to but it's something I've never seen nor thought of.

Well, that's why there's the concept of dating.  To talk and get to know who you are going out with, and to frequently date to understand one another's love and to share one another's life.  The concept may be hard for you to accept because you're surrounded by those who do not have such a concept, which doesn't excuse kissing before marriage.  If a city is full of promiscuous people who cannot fully understand how someone is romantic without sex on the first date, are you to allow sex simply because of society's inability to understand true romance and love in the spiritual aspect before marriage?

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:52:32 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2006, 03:01:00 AM »

I don't think the desire to kiss someone is a weakness and neither do societal pressures matter when it comes to love and dating. As far as I've seen, this issue isn't black and white and should be judged on a case by case basis.
Yet your illustration that a man might be seen to be gay if he didn't contradicts this. You need to make up your mind Huh
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2006, 03:02:29 AM »

Well, that's why there's the concept of dating.  To talk and get to know who you are going out with, and to frequently date to understand one another's love and to share one another's life.  The concept may be hard for you to accept because you're surrounded by those who do not have such a concept, which doesn't excuse kissing before marriage.  If a city is full of promiscuous people who cannot fully understand how someone is romantic without sex on the first date, are you to allow sex simply because of society's inability to understand true romance and love in the spiritual aspect before marriage?

God bless.

Mina
Indeed. I think a woman would get the 'clue' that the guy's interested in her by the candles at dinner!  Roll Eyes

Maybe Matthew777 thinks women aren't that perceptive and that unless your tounge's half-way down her throat she won't know.
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2006, 03:08:21 AM »

Indeed. I think a woman would get the 'clue' that the guy's interested in her by the candles at dinner!  Roll Eyes

lol...indeed...you wouldn't do that to a mere sister Cheesy.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2006, 03:17:06 AM »

lol...indeed...you wouldn't do that to a mere sister Cheesy.

Except in Tasmania

(sorry, it's an Australian joke)
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
montalban
Now in colour
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 1,813



« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2006, 03:19:04 AM »

Kissing obviously feels different if with a lover rather than a sister. How do you know you are romantically interested in someone without kissing? Some people may be able to but it's something I've never seen nor thought of. If you kiss for the first time and it doesn't feel right, like it is not the right person for you, then you've definitely learned something.

I'd still like to know what exactly your position is. You've mentioned perceptions of gayness; this sounds more like insecurity.

Aren't the absolute standards and morals that you believe in; that regardless of whether people feel that they are 'funny', you'd still stand by them?
Logged

Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2006, 10:31:33 AM »

I'm speaking of romantic love. How do you know if you romantically love someone without kissing? Self-sacrifice is not just characteristic of a romantic relationship but platonic friendship also. ÂÂ

   I have always known I was romantically in love with a girl partly because it "feels different" just being with her than with other girls. Your DESIRE to kiss her is evidence enough that you're already romantically interested. Would you also have to have sex with her before you KNEW you wanted to have children with her? What would be the use of quoting canons and Scriptures when Christian common sense should be enough to see through the world's seductive siren song?
   We can know whether we love a girl without adopting the world's standards of dating and marriage, but we can only love God through obedience to His standards. If you want to dispute the fact that the Church as our spiritual Mother has always had strict standards regarding pre-marital physical intimacy, then the burden of proof does not lie with those who defend the traditional teaching but with those who question it. Honestly, did you come to the Church to "fix" everything you think is wrong with her or to be fixed of the things that are wrong with you?

In Christ,
Rd. David
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2006, 11:00:11 AM »

Here's the way I look at this stuff --

If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

All of these taboos were created by Men who saw their daughters simply as bargaining chips in order to obtain wealth and power. "Damaged goods" are worth nothing in the marketplace.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 11:07:33 AM by TomS » Logged
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2006, 11:15:07 AM »

Honestly, I'm not sure whether there is much more to discuss. Unless you are able to prove that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'm not going to give it up. I am more than happy with giving up sex, especially with all the crazy dangers out there, but not kissing.

Peace.


 ÃƒÆ’‚  At the risk of sounding too harsh:

 ÃƒÆ’‚  Please, Matthew, don't sound so smug. You've only proven that you are a lonely twenty-something who is willing to go through mental gymnastics to justify doing something you already know the Church says not to do in order to keep the pleasure without the guilt. We shouldn't approach the moral teachings of the Church with a superior attitude but with humility. Yet, whenever someone gives a reason for the Church's stand on something you are ready to pick it apart with worldly "wisdom". If you're going to do something anyway, just do it. By constructing intellectual-sounding arguments to justify your choices you will only make it harder to repent later when you are older and wiser.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  Here's something to ask your Father Confessor that should clear this up sufficiently:
"Father, I really want to live a God-pleasing life and not to follow my own will- as a single Christian, is french kissing and making out compatible with what the Church teaches regarding chastity or not? If I am serious about growing in Christ as an Orthodox Christian is this something I can fell free to do or should I avoid it?"
 ÃƒÆ’‚ That's really as hard as finding the answer needs to be................

In Christ,
Rd. David
 
Logged
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2006, 11:29:26 AM »

Here's the way I look at this stuff --

If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

All of these taboos were created by Men who saw their daughters simply as bargaining chips in order to obtain wealth and power. "Damaged goods" are worth nothing in the marketplace.



  I get it- a man who is chaste is treating women as bargaining chips, one who is not is simply being natural. And all the Scriptures which enjoin chastity, purity (even in our thoughts), fidelity, etc. are man-made taboos? Tom, television and the movies are not the best place to be forming our values from........

  As for the stranded couple on the island- they can pray to be rescued. And I am sure if they fall in love and "marry" as best they can, the Church will have some type of economia that will cover their UNIQUE situation. If we try to make common norms from such one-of-a-kind situations we destroy any ability to know anything. As a matter of fact, I think I remember the Church excercizing this kind of economia in regards to people who lived in the wilderness of Alaska and other places. They came together as husband and wife and regularized their marriage as soon as they were able, sometimes years after the fact due to their remoteness from society.

In Christ,
Rd. David
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,973


black metal cat


« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2006, 12:43:03 PM »

Sometimes I think people argue here just to win debates, regardless of how absurd or impractical their position is Roll Eyes
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2006, 12:49:41 PM »

Sometimes I think people argue here just to win debates, regardless of how absurd or impractical their position is Roll Eyes

Theology IS ALL ABOUT debates!
Logged
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2006, 01:39:20 PM »

Sometimes I think people argue here just to win debates, regardless of how absurd or impractical their position is Roll Eyes

I agree- and I have noticed that what seems "absurd or impractical" is largely a matter of of perspective based both on experience and one's presuppositions. The situation E.A. shared regarding he and his fiance or that of many other pious couples I have met makes perfect sense when one's starting point is Scripture, Tradition, the historic stance of the Church and a firm belief that with God's help all things are possible. It's also very practical and doable. Faith makes it so.
  If one does not start with the fullness of the Faith as the place to get our answers from then, of course, those answers wil seem absurd to some. The Scripture says that we will look like fools to the world.
   Conversely, to one who is steeped in Scripture and Tradition, the world's ways of deciding what is right and wrong will seem absurd as well..........

In Christ,
Rd. David
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2006, 01:59:01 PM »

 If one does not start with the fullness of the Faith as the place to get our answers from then, of course, those answers wil seem absurd to some. The Scripture says that we will look like fools to the world.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  Conversely, to one who is steeped in Scripture and Tradition, the world's ways of deciding what is right and wrong will seem absurd as well..........

Did you write this without laughing? 'Cause I certainly cannot read it without laughing.

If this is about Faith and Scriputure - explain to me the cultures who did not come out of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Have you researched ancient cultures (and by ancient, I don't mean BYZANTIUM!) and even current cultures that hold these types of "sex taboos"?

It is all about property and the idea that females are not "fully developed" creatures who cannot make decisions on their own.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:00:45 PM by TomS » Logged
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2006, 02:05:42 PM »

Did you write this without laughing? 'Cause I certainly cannot read it without laughing.

If this is about Faith and Scriputure - explain to me the cultures who did not come out of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Have you researched ancient cultures (and by ancient, I don't mean BYZANTIUM!) and even current cultures that hold these types of "sex taboos"?

It is all about property and the idea that females are not "fully developed" creatures who cannot make decisions on their own.


Pull yourself together, Tom. This thread was started by Matthew's question whether Christians can engage in passionate kissing before marriage. So we only need to concentrate on the basis of Christianity's specific stand on this issue for now. And, since Matthew is asking the question we are specifically discussing a man practicing chastity according to Christian norms.

   Oh, and thank you for proving my point on presuppositions and stances............
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 02:08:40 PM by DavidH » Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2006, 03:13:23 PM »

Did you write this without laughing? 'Cause I certainly cannot read it without laughing.

If this is about Faith and Scriputure - explain to me the cultures who did not come out of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Have you researched ancient cultures (and by ancient, I don't mean BYZANTIUM!) and even current cultures that hold these types of "sex taboos"?

It is all about property and the idea that females are not "fully developed" creatures who cannot make decisions on their own.


And cultures that believed in God only did so to gain power over the people. Roll Eyes

God bless.

Mina
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Haile
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 11


« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2006, 03:23:46 PM »

Theology IS ALL ABOUT debates!

Dude, you crack me up! Who said theology is all about debates? If one sees your claim from the participants of this forum  perspective that will probably make perfect sense. How ever, if  what you had in mind was the theology in true Christianity, your claim is out of touch, to say the least.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 03:24:57 PM by Haile » Logged


The Arc of the Covenant Axum, Ethiopia
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2006, 03:54:25 PM »

I'd still like to know what exactly your position is.

Kissing will obviously feel different with someone you like more than a friend, more than you would a sister. When first dating someone, when you share your first kiss, it is a very good way to gauge whether you like that person more than a friend, whether you want to continue dating that person. It will obviously feel different. It's also good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way.

Peace.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 04:13:58 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2006, 03:58:37 PM »

You've only proven that you are a lonely twenty-something who is willing to go through mental gymnastics to justify doing something you already know the Church says not to do in order to keep the pleasure without the guilt.

I'm not usually lonely. I am rather involved with the Church, my school, and circle of friends. Even when I'm alone in my room, I have the Karamazovs to keep me company. I'm not trying to see how far I can go without getting in trouble, which is most definitely a middle school mentality, but what the clear rules are on this matter. If it isn't so black and white, then that's tough for me because I usually see the world in black and white terms.

Peace.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 04:06:05 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2006, 05:21:28 PM »

I'm not usually lonely. I am rather involved with the Church, my school, and circle of friends. Even when I'm alone in my room, I have the Karamazovs to keep me company. I'm not trying to see how far I can go without getting in trouble, which is most definitely a middle school mentality, but what the clear rules are on this matter. If it isn't so black and white, then that's tough for me because I usually see the world in black and white terms.

Peace.


   I apologize for saying this WAS your motivation (as if I know your heart). I should have asked WHETHER it was- and that in a private message.
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2006, 05:53:12 PM »

Basically, as far as I see it, this issue should be treated on a case by case basis. While some may feel comfortable in kissing before marriage, so long as it doesn't lead to pre-marital sex, others do not. There is nothing inherently sinful about kissing, as long as you don't allow it to go to far. It can be a healthy way of gauging what your feelings are for a person and expressing those feelings.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2006, 06:12:04 PM »

I think that if you are kissing someone, you already knew beforehand that you liked them in a romantic way. But, to clarify, are you saying you are comfortable with the occasional brief affectionate kiss or sitting and "necking"? I myself find nothing wrong with the former (although I admire and find nothing wrong with abstaining even from that), but with the latter- I am sure that the universal Christian tradition before the "sexual revolution" would condemn it. Is there any evidence to the contrary?
 As for setting myself up against the universal Christian belief or practice on ANY level- theologically or morally- I hope I never find myself THAT "mature" because "pride cometh before a fall"...........
   And, yes, there are many things that can be decided on a case by case basis pastorally in union with your confessor. The extent to fast if you have weaknesses prohibitting you to fast fully, for example. But in the realm of basic Christian morality- I don't see that that can be changed on a case by case basis any more than dogma can be changed. Something is either true or false, it is either right or wrong, but in e.g. fasting: THIS is the ideal for the average Christian but because of weakness, we allow YOU to do this...............
Logged
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2006, 06:19:55 PM »

But, to clarify, are you saying you are comfortable with the occasional brief affectionate kiss or sitting and "necking"?

I'm not sure yet, I like both. I'll have to discuss this with my confessor. Thank you for your time.

Peace.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 06:20:17 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2006, 06:29:25 PM »

May God grant you wisdom as you seek His perfect will.

In Christ,
Rd. David
Logged
coptic orthodox boy
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 447


« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2006, 07:45:34 PM »

Matthew

I think the best thing to do is talk it over with your FoC.  Perhaps as a side note, from personal experience, use forums just for theology.  Anything that you do personally (how and what you pray, how late in the day you break your fast, etc.) I would suggest keep between you and your spiritual director.

With that said, I think Timos makes a wonderful point.  There are clearly different types of kissing, some are a very minute but strong outward sign of feelings, and I personally believe between unmarried couples is completly acceptable.  There are of course, "deeper" kisses that should be left for marriage.  I know I'm probably going to get shot down for my advice, since now I am clearly struggling keeping the Orthodox faith.  

Anyways, I hope all is well  Smiley

shawn
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,377


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2006, 07:58:30 PM »

Like I said, kissing is necessary to tell whether you like someone more than you would a friend. I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Peace.

I don't want to bring this back, but I would be remiss if I didn't put my 2 cents in  Wink

If the girl doesn't understand that you want to be pure because of CHRIST then i'm not sure if that's the best girl for you.  

Trust me I know how ignorant that may seem to you.  I also don't want to disclose my escapades on the internet, but i've had my more than fair share of "relationships" so I know how impossible it may seem to not kiss a girl.  But I know that the gf that I have now is perfect because I know that if I had never kissed her she still would have loved me and wanted to be my partner for life.  We did kiss and still do, but it usually tends to not be the nice hey how you doing kiss...i'll leave it there...
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,377


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2006, 08:05:51 PM »


Maybe Matthew777 thinks women aren't that perceptive and that unless your tounge's half-way down her throat she won't know.

You know, i'm sorry to tell you but every girl i've ever "dated" or gone on 1 date with has NEVER IN MY LIFE appreciated little signals.  no girl has even said THANK YOU for me opening a door for her.  And that's a common courtesy.  No girl has ever said THANK YOU or realized what was going on when I took her to SUPER fancy restaurants, or made dinner MYSELF.

Sorry to bring up personal experiences but i've had too many girls screw up my image of "being a good guy" to let people think that stereotypes still exist today.  I've never in my life met a girl (present example excluded) that appreciated these things.  I had to become the "bad-guy" in order to even date!!!  

This is why I said that if the girl doesn't understand chastity, etc. then maybe she's not for you.  All my relationships didn't work because the girl either didn't get it, was uncouth, or I just picked a girl with whom things would DEFINATELY not work out in the future, but was focused on the short-term.  
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2006, 08:25:47 PM »

If the girl doesn't understand that you want to be pure because of CHRIST then i'm not sure if that's the best girl for you. ÂÂ

Purity and physical sharing of affection can co-exist. For the first time of my life, I've decided to date not just "for fun" but hopefully, to grow in the Lord with a member of the opposite sex, to help lead each other to salvation. If kissing isn't allowed in that equation, that's something I'll have to deal with. I'm sorry I've shared too much of my personal life.

Peace.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 08:26:52 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2006, 08:44:24 PM »

If you can keep your mind and intentions pure while kissing, go with God.  If not, then it won't matter whether you're kissing or not - lust doesn't require physical contact.  In the end, the ongoing battle for purity in a monogamous relationship is one that will be fought with the help of your other, spiritual guide, guardian angel, et al.

As for "shared too much" - you should feel comfortable enough in an Orthodox dialogue environment to share, just be warned that some here are not as mature as others and will take the opportunity to poke fun/be immature about it.  It is probably best then to not divulge too much (and thus not lead them into temptation) but rather enough that people see your perspective/predicament.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2006, 08:59:07 PM »

In the end, the ongoing battle for purity in a monogamous relationship is one that will be fought with the help of your other, spiritual guide, guardian angel, et al.

If it's such a battle where one must constantly worry about falling into temptation, I hope there is still joy to be found in dating. Otherwise, perhaps we should teach ourselves to be asexual.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2006, 09:24:25 PM »

If you can keep your mind and intentions pure while kissing, go with God.

Apart from my argument that one cannot trust their own introspective conscious on these matters, since one may easily under-estimate the effects that such physical activity may have, or equally over-estimate their ability to resist any temptations inspired by such activity, I would also like to point out the fact that one is also accountable for whatever temptations or sins they may lead their partner into. Let's assume for arguments sake, that one is capable of kissing a girl without there being anything sinful provoked, whether in the mind or the flesh, nor any temptation inspired; can that person be assured that they will not in turn provoke or inspire such things in the one whom they intend to kiss? I don't think that's possible.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 09:36:06 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2006, 09:37:37 PM »

That's another good point EA has made- St. Paul laid down this principle of conduct in 1 Corinthians in dealing with a different subject. He said that he would never do anything that could cause scandal or lead another believer into sin. We ARE our brother's (and sister's) keepers.........
Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2006, 11:14:33 PM »

Well, then, I am curious as to what you would think St. Paul meant when he said that he would not allow a man to "touch" a woman.  What does "touch" mean to you, or what did St. Paul mean?  What to the Holy Fathers say?

God bless.

Mina
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2006, 11:25:59 PM »

Well, then, I am curious as to what you would think St. Paul meant when he said that he would not allow a man to "touch" a woman.  What does "touch" mean to you, or what did St. Paul mean?  What to the Holy Fathers say?

God bless.

Mina

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.          Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
(1 Corinthians 7:1-2)

I fail to see how kissing is fornication.

Peace.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 11:26:27 PM by Matthew777 » Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,655


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2006, 11:45:09 PM »

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband." (v. 3)

What does "due affection" mean?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2006, 12:16:01 AM »

If it's such a battle where one must constantly worry about falling into temptation, I hope there is still joy to be found in dating. Otherwise, perhaps we should teach ourselves to be asexual.

Peace.

Honestly, why wouldn't there be?  There is nothing that says one cannot find joy in life, even while fighting against temptation.  Avoiding sin is less about "worrying" - which can lead into more sin than what was possible in the first place - and more about putting oneself in a positive direction towards God.  He'll take care of the rest.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Matthew777
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,497

Seek and ye shall find


WWW
« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2006, 12:31:41 AM »

 There is nothing that says one cannot find joy in life, even while fighting against temptation. ÂÂ

If kissing itself is giving into temptation, then I might as well stay home and eat peanuts rather than date. Please forgive me if that sounds immature.

Peace.
Logged

He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
www.aramaicpeshitta.com
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm
Tags: First Kiss Marriage Abstinence 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.131 seconds with 73 queries.