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Author Topic: No kissing before marriage?  (Read 19093 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: March 23, 2006, 09:20:16 PM »

In the world be live in, sexual abstinence isn't just religious dogma but good sense. It is not something that I'd dispute nor want to. But not all physical contact between persons is necessarily sinful. Take kissing, for example. If one allows the passions to take control, kissing can go too far. But it can be a greeting between neighbors and friends (of the same or opposite sex) or an expression of love between a dating couple.
If kissing is seen by some as an inherently sexual act that must be saved for marriage, perhaps that is a reaction to our oversexualized culture.
A 25-year-old couple can still have "puppy love", kissing and showing affection for each other without it leading to pre-marital sex. It's hard for me to see that as unnatural or wrong.

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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2006, 09:39:52 PM »

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If kissing is seen by some as an inherently sexual act that must be saved for marriage, perhaps that is a reaction to our oversexualized culture.

I personally don't see a problem with kissing of any kind. However, there is clearly a difference between giving a "kiss of peace" at Church, and kissing your girlfriend/boyfriend for 5 minutes while on a date. Past Orthodox have given penances for kissing (and playing footsie, and all sorts of other things). Perhaps the 15th century Russians were oversexualized? Wink In any case, people know when they are crossing the line and not crossing it. And each person can (with their partner) create that line. For some, french kissing might be way too big a temptation, or others any kisses while alone might be a temptation, etc. For others, they might be able to french and feel no sexual attraction whatsoever (I know that sounds wierd, but it's true for some, it depends on what turns you on).
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2006, 09:44:50 PM »

For others, they might be able to french and feel no sexual attraction whatsoever

There is a difference between having sex appeal and being sex-obsessed. In choosing a marital partner, one common reason is that we feel sexually attracted to that person. There is nothing wrong with having sexual desires, it is how God made us. The problem is in when we allow those desires to consume us, leading to sexual sin.
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2006, 10:20:10 PM »

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And each person can (with their partner) create that line.

Never trust the introspective conscious when it comes to matters of sexuality. Furthermore, the temptation to cross the line will always be there, and it will only build up the further one pushes that line.

Save your first kiss for your wife Matthew; she'll appreciate it. Trust me.

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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2006, 11:42:58 PM »

Save your first kiss for your wife Matthew; she'll appreciate it. Trust me.

I've kissed probably five or six women in a romantic way. The thought of not kissing anyone until marriage sounds very ultra-conservative and backward to me. Could you please explain your rationale?
Kissing is a good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way, there is nothing inherently sinful about it.

Peace.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2006, 03:31:30 AM »

Not kissing because you refrain from pre-marital sex is like starving yourself from food out of fear of overeating. It seems that this idea is going a little too far. If you are going to make the claim that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'd hope that you can back it up. Kissing of a good way to see whether a person is able to show affection in a healthy way. If you can quote a Bible verse against it, please do so.

Peace.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 06:17:12 AM »

I personally don't see a problem with kissing of any kind. However, there is clearly a difference between giving a "kiss of peace" at Church, and kissing your girlfriend/boyfriend for 5 minutes while on a date.
Doh! No wonder the priest looked angry at me!
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 08:34:29 AM »

Trust me, if you don't at least try to kiss her, she's going to think you don't really like her.

And yes there is a HUGE difference between romantic or even pretty passionate kissing and getting to the point where you really should get a room.
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2006, 09:10:06 AM »

Do you people like, ever read the Bible, or something?

If mere lustful thoughts fall under the category of adultery, then how much more so would actual physical activity? And any guy who thinks that the physical activity of kissing a girl doesn't really arouse any lustful passions, inspire further lustful thoughts, or increase one's susceptibility to temptation to further lustful activity, then they must have pulled an Origen or something. Just because you don't need a condom to kiss, that doesn't mean it's any more acceptable than sex.

I'm no Saint; God knows my past, and I am not inclined to reveal it over the internet, but I can at least say on a personal level, that my fiancee has never even hugged a guy before in her life. And no, that's not because she's fat and ugly; she's actually the most beautiful Copt i've ever seen in my life. She has fair skin and blue eyes (a one in a million chance outcome for a full-blooded Egyptian), and has been hit on enough times to really boil my blood, especially considering that she continues to be hit on during our engagement. The point is however, that she is one of those people who actually decided to save themselves--all of themselves, completely and perfectly--for their future spouse. She went through the effort of resisting those who offered her opportunities, and avoiding circumstances where temptation would have been potentially quite strong, and you can't imagine how much it means to me that she did that, and how ashamed of myself I feel that I couldn't do the same for her.

Like I said earlier, save yourself for your wife, completely, and she'll truly appreciate it. My fiancee and I always joke around about who loved the other first, in a competitive sense, but now I realise, that she truly loved me first, because she loved me before she even met me.
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2006, 04:35:22 PM »

Trust me, if you don't at least try to kiss her, she's going to think you don't really like her.

Does that include the first date?

Peace.
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2006, 04:38:43 PM »

my fiancee has never even hugged a guy before in her life.

There is a difference between sexual purity and sexual repression. Know what I mean?

Peace.
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2006, 04:50:44 PM »

Do you people like, ever read the Bible, or something?

If mere lustful thoughts fall under the category of adultery, then how much more so would actual physical activity? ......Like I said earlier, save yourself for your wife, completely, and she'll truly appreciate it. My fiancee and I always joke around about who loved the other first, in a competitive sense, but now I realise, that she truly loved me first, because she loved me before she even met me.

   Very, very well put! Honestly, would any Christian who was pure with his intended before marriage ever regret it? I hear very often people saying they wish they had not been as physically intimate before they got married but I have never heard of a Christian couple say they wish they had made out more. Waiting shows a loving respect that can only strengthen a marriage later on.
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2006, 04:56:19 PM »

There is a difference between sexual purity and sexual repression. Know what I mean?

Peace.


   It sounds to me like the young lady is not repressed but transfigured. Saving herself for the
the love of her life to that extent is a beautiful testimony to the operation of God's grace in her life.
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2006, 06:46:57 PM »


 ÃƒÆ’‚  It sounds to me like the young lady is not repressed but transfigured. Saving herself for the
the love of her life to that extent is a beautiful testimony to the operation of God's grace in her life.
I agree
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2006, 08:35:12 PM »

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Never trust the introspective conscious when it comes to matters of sexuality. Furthermore, the temptation to cross the line will always be there, and it will only build up the further one pushes that line.

Either that or one or both of the people will get so tired of trying to live like puritans that they'll dump the person and move on. All because a smooch was too lustful. If someone can go on in life like your fiancee then that's wonderful. Most people wouldn't be able to handle it however, and the thing that is more likely than your slippery slope scenario, is that most people would fail very quickly when trying to begin with such a rigid gameplan as you suggest people should. As for reading the Bible, I've read some of it, and what I see is stuff about how we shouldn't lust, and yet Abraham and all sorts of other saints pick their wives based on looks (though sometimes are too drunk to notice in the dark tent that the father-in-law has given them the less pretty girl). Wink Same thing in the Fathers. I'm not advocating the free expression of every urge that comes to mind, just some bending rather than trying to remain rigid and ending up breaking. For the record, my wife and I kissed and maybe even went a bit further, and believe it or not we still entered marriage two 20-something virgins.
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2006, 09:56:32 PM »

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Either that or one or both of the people will get so tired of trying to live like puritans that they'll dump the person and move on.

Such an outcome is probably for the best, for the both of them. Although we are engaged, my fiancee and I have yet to even kiss, as we have mutually agreed to save it until we are officially married; in fact, due to our circumstances (the fact I have yet to graduate from university inter alia), we will not be able to get married till at least another three years. If the fact that I won’t have the chance to kiss her for another three years were a thing that could possibly challenge my commitment to her, then I wouldn’t be engaged to her, nay, I shouldn’t be engaged to her.

Quote
Most people wouldn't be able to handle it however

I fail to see how what most people would or wouldn’t do is relevant to a discussion regarding the morality, appropriateness, and idealness of the very acts in question. Most people in today’s society not only have sex before marriage, but they even have sex before the legal age; would you like to suggest that an Orthodox Christian relax the rules regarding pre-marital sex upon the basis of this observation?

Quote
most people would fail very quickly when trying to begin with such a rigid gameplan

Again, I fail to see the relevance of whether or not most people would achieve this ideal and moral gameplan, to the fact that that it is the ideal and moral gameplan. Most people also fail to perfectly observe the command to love one’s neighbour, but we are nonetheless called upon to follow it, perfectly (Matthew 5:48).

You don’t really have any arguments here; you’re just copping-out and trying to make excuses.

Quote
and what I see is stuff about how we shouldn't lust, and yet Abraham and all sorts of other saints pick their wives based on looks

Do I really need to spell out the distinction between attraction and lust? If physical attraction constitutes a primary criterion for some, then so be it; that is their individual choice relative to their cultural or social context, or simply just a reflection of their own personal attitude irrespective of the cultural or social setting. I think you will be hard-pressed however to not consider the essential relevance of culture and society when it comes to discussing Abraham or certain post-NT Saints.

Furthermore, even assuming Abraham excercised lust in the wife-picking process, I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where we are called upon to follow the Patriarchs or Prophets as if they were perfect moral examples. The sins of the prophets were many. You allude to one of these many sins yourself in the following statement:

Quote
(though sometimes are too drunk to notice in the dark tent that the father-in-law has given them the less pretty girl).


We are only to follow the examples set by prophets insofar as they are commended (directly or indirectly), and not according to those things for which they are rebuked or condemned (directly or indirectly). I find the comments of 19th century Jewish Sage, Rabbi Shimshon Raphael Hirsch, to be quite enlightening on this issue:

"The Torah is not an 'anthology of paragons.'  It relates events not because they are worthy of emulation but simply because they took place.

The Torah does not attempt to hide from us the faults, errors and weaknesses of our great men and precisely thereby it places the stamp of credibility upon the happenings it relates. ÂÂ The fact that we are told about their faults and weaknesses does not detract from our great men; indeed, it adds to their stature and makes their life stories even more instructive. ÂÂ Had they all been portrayed to us as models of perfection, we would have believed that they had been endowed with a higher nature not given to us to attain. ÂÂ Had they been presented to us as free of human passions and inner conflicts, their nature would seem to us merely the result of a loftier predisposition, not a product of their personal merit, and certainly no model we could ever hope to emulate. ÂÂ Take, for instance, the humility of Moses. ÂÂ If we did not know that he was also capable of flying into a rage, this humility would seem to us an inborn trait not within our capacity to emulate. ÂÂ It is precisely his outburst (“Here now, you rebels!” Num. 20:10) that lends to his humility its true greatness, for it shows us his humility as the product of a mighty labor of self-control and self-refinement which we should all emulate because it is within our capacity to do so. ÂÂ Also, the Torah relates no sin or error without telling us also of its consequences, great or small...We must never attempt to whitewash the spiritual and moral heroes of our past. They are not in need of our apologies, nor would they tolerate such attempts on our part."
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2006, 10:09:45 PM »

A lot of girls would consider it weird for a guy to not try to kiss while dating. But then again, many probably think that sexual abstinence is weird too.
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2006, 10:29:34 PM »

Matthew, your arguments never cease to amaze me.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2006, 10:31:40 PM »

Basically, I just said that even though your argument sounds weird and lame, it may be correct and valid.

Peace.
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2006, 10:40:29 PM »

Belief in God sounds weird and lame for many. Unless you think you're too cool for school (in this case, that would be basic Christian morality), then I don't see what problem this poses.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2006, 10:44:42 PM »

Belief in God sounds weird and lame for many. Unless you think you're too cool for school (in this case, that would be basic Christian morality), then I don't see what problem this poses.

I'm just not certain if no kissing before marriage is so 'basic' of Christian morality. It sounds ultra-conservative to me, even if it is the safest option.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 10:52:22 PM »

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It sounds ultra-conservative to me

If that's the case, then i'm curious as to how, according to your standards, you would describe Christ's classification of the engagement in lustful thoughts as adultery?

Quote
even if it is the safest option

"Better to be safe than sorry": far from being a lame cliche, I believe it's a Biblically grounded principle.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 10:54:14 PM »

I'll have to think about that, I really will.

Peace.
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2006, 01:06:01 AM »

Belief in God sounds weird and lame for many. Unless you think you're too cool for school (in this case, that would be basic Christian morality), then I don't see what problem this poses.

That's it exactly. Who really cares if someone claims that following God sounds weird? Some people argue that just having belief in God is weird.

When we look to the Garden of Eden - when they ate of the fruit, there was nothing inherently wrong with the fruit (it wasn't poisonous), therefore the prohibition on eating it wasn't for the physical health of Adam and Eve. The sin was disobedience, and not putting one's trust in God. Same with a lot of moral laws. I might feel desires for certain pleasures, but I am not to be the ultimate judge of what's right and wrong for me; God is.
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2006, 01:09:43 AM »

Honestly, I'm not sure whether there is much more to discuss. Unless you are able to prove that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'm not going to give it up. I am more than happy with giving up sex, especially with all the crazy dangers out there, but not kissing.

Peace.
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2006, 01:16:16 AM »

Matthew777 may I introduce you to Matthew 5:28?
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2006, 01:27:39 AM »

I consider myself quite traditional (and 'o'rthodox) for someone under 20 and I really don't see the problem with a kiss during dating. What exactly do you mean by kissing?

a. A peck on the cheek?
b. A quick kiss on the lips?
c. french kiss?
d. smooching til its like slobering?

If its only a, then, get help. This type of kiss is for your family members, your very close friends, ppl of the same nationality who kiss you twice (or three times if your Lebanese or Russian I think) on each cheek.

I think b is appropriate for people who have been dating for a long time, ie. the engagement period.

Anything beyond that in my world would definitely be reserved for marriage.

To some people, a certain hand hold or 'stance'/action hold can arouse them more than a quick kiss.
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2006, 01:31:28 AM »

c. french kiss?

...and I don't think it should be reserved for marriage.

Peace.
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2006, 01:49:27 AM »

Not kissing because you refrain from pre-marital sex is like starving yourself from food out of fear of overeating.

Actually, I would personally think of it as like fasting before a feast.  Eating eggs is not sinful, but it's recommended not to eat them before Christmas or Easter, etc.

Or as Montalban said, if you're told not to eat from the tree, don't eat it.  St. Paul said "not to touch."  I think this simply means to save affectionate relation until after marriage.  

You're overthinking it my friend.  True devotion is not proven by a kiss.

God bless.

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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2006, 01:53:58 AM »

True devotion is not proven by a kiss.

Do you realize that the average woman would think a man is either asexual or gay for not kissing her? Kissing is often necessary to tell whether you like a person more than you would a friend.

Peace.
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« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2006, 01:56:11 AM »

Do you realize that the average woman would think a man is either asexual or gay for not kissing her? Kissing is often necessary to tell whether you like a person more than you would a friend.

Peace.

I do realize that, and that's because society is ignorant.  This is no excuse for not kissing someone.  Besides, why would you care about society if your own girlfriend should understand?

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2006, 01:58:17 AM »

 Besides, why would you care about society if your own girlfriend should understand?

Like I said, kissing is necessary to tell whether you like someone more than you would a friend. I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Peace.
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« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2006, 01:59:58 AM »

Like I said, kissing is necessary to tell whether you like someone more than you would a friend. I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Peace.

I disagree.  It's not necessary.  If you HAVE to kiss someone to show how much you love them, then you do not understand what love is.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2006, 02:01:15 AM »

I disagree.  It's not necessary.  If you HAVE to kiss someone to show how much you love them, then you do not understand what love is.

No, not just to show how much you love them but to know. Kissing obviously feels different if with someone you honestly have feelings for.

Peace.
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2006, 02:03:42 AM »

If you HAVE to kiss someone to show how much you love them, then you do not understand what love is.

Definitely.

There is nothing necessary about kissing your partner before marriage. That has to be the worst argument made so far.
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2006, 02:05:06 AM »

No, not just to show how much you love them but to know.

What a load of BS.
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2006, 02:06:00 AM »

I'd say it's necessary to know whether you like someone as a partner are just as a sister. Kissing is a good way of gauging each other's feelings. Wouldn't you agree that kissing obviously would feel different?
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2006, 02:08:07 AM »

The way to know how much you love someone is not by kissing, but what you do for them, especially ultimate self-sacrifice.

1 Cor. 7 shows that it is GOOD for a man not to touch a woman, and due affection is to be done between husband and wife.

Again, before marriage, it is best that you "fast" from being bodily affection.  It all the more should make the relationship stronger, not weaker.  When you fast from foods, you are making your own spirituality stronger as well.

God bless.

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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2006, 02:10:31 AM »

The way to know how much you love someone is not by kissing, but what you do for them, especially ultimate self-sacrifice.

I'm speaking of romantic love. How do you know if you romantically love someone without kissing? Self-sacrifice is not just characteristic of a romantic relationship but platonic friendship also. ÂÂ
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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2006, 02:11:40 AM »

Quote
I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Hmmm... you've already stated here that you have never dated anyone longer than two weeks.  I don't think you have to worry about long term relationships anytime soon.  

 We're putting you on post moderation for two weeks because of inflammatory comments you've made to M777.  It'll only be 2 wks, however, since your tone HAS gone down as of late.
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« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2006, 02:15:54 AM »

Kissing is a good way of gauging each other's feelings.

Yeah; the type that our basic Christian morality condemns, remember?

Seriously, if you were in front of me, and you tried to tell me that I don't really know if I love my wife-to-be, in spite of the sacrifices made and the risks taken just to get engaged, by virtue of the fact I haven't kissed her on the lips yet, i'd probably be tempted to hit you.

Quote
Wouldn't you agree that kissing obviously would feel different?


I would agree with that; but that's a different thing to saying that you need to kiss them in order to know (which logically implies that you cannot possibly know unless you kiss them). If you want to know what true love is, have a read of 1 Corinthians 13; use that as your guideline and criterion.
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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2006, 02:22:18 AM »

Just as a side observation, I've seen many conservative protestant and LDS couples date without kissing - so if they can do it (and often with great success!) it isn't impossible.  OTOH human being are human beings.    

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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2006, 02:27:09 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8541.msg113091#msg113091 date=1143354138]OTOH human being are human beings.[/quote]

True, but the danger lies when one appeals to the weakness of our human nature as an excuse to justify their flawed actions (which is the impression i got from the arguments made by Asteriktos). The weakness of our fallen humanity, is at most, merely an explanation accounting for the occurence of such flawed actions.
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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2006, 02:35:35 AM »

Do you realize that the average woman would think a man is either asexual or gay for not kissing her? Kissing is often necessary to tell whether you like a person more than you would a friend.

It seems you are arguing for 'right' based on what people think, or perceive.

SO if people might perceive you to be gay you need to show you're not; that you're a real man!
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2006, 02:37:14 AM »

I'm speaking of romantic love. How do you know if you romantically love someone without kissing? Self-sacrifice is not just characteristic of a romantic relationship but platonic friendship also. ÂÂ

You mean you can only tell once you've kissed them?

Here's some thoughts on kissing...

"In our days, as in pre-revolutionary times in Russia, this propagation has the definite goal of corrupting contemporary society. This is an old method. History is filled with examples of nations which perished from the spread of depravity; The Lord turned Sodom and Gomorrah. Babylon fell. The Roman Empire perished. The free West could be subjected to this same corruption... What do we see in the life which surrounds us? Indecency and shamelessness in clothing; shameless kissing and embracing on the streets and in public places; shameless advertisements, filthy pornographic literature... All of this dissoluteness and perversion pours into life in an immense wave. Truly, there is no less shamelessness now, if not more, than in pagan times when the Holy Apostles and their successors had to exhort Christians with especial zeal in the observance of modesty."
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/modestyandwill.aspx
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« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2006, 02:37:45 AM »

"Romance" with touching is not allowed before marriage.  It's part of what St. Paul says "due affection."

Try not to give in to society's pressures or your own human weaknesses.  Overcoming them shows your true side as an Orthodox Christian (or a Christian in general).

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2006, 02:37:59 AM »

Seriously, if you were in front of me, and you tried to tell me that I don't really know if I love my wife-to-be, in spite of the sacrifices made and the risks taken just to get engaged, by virtue of the fact I haven't kissed her on the lips yet, i'd probably be tempted to hit you.
 

Wouldn't this be different for different couples? I'd have to right to tell you what you and your female do and do not have. You most likely have something that most young people could only dream of.

Peace.
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« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2006, 02:38:49 AM »

True, but the danger lies when one appeals to the weakness of our human nature as an excuse to justify their flawed actions (which is the impression i got from the arguments made by Asteriktos). The weakness of our fallen humanity, is at most, merely an explanation accounting for the occurence of such flawed actions.

This is in fact what Matthew777 is appealing to; you need to show you're not gay by kissing. An appeal to please (or change the perceptions of) others
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« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2006, 02:40:51 AM »

Wouldn't this be different for different couples? I'd have to right to tell you what you and your female do and do not have. You most likely have something that most young people could only dream of.

Peace.

When Christ conquered temptation on the mountain, and suffered whips and nails, is that something that we can only "dream of," or is it something we train ourselves to look forward to?

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2006, 02:41:32 AM »

Try not to give in to society's pressures or your own human weaknesses.

I don't think the desire to kiss someone is a weakness and neither do societal pressures matter when it comes to love and dating. As far as I've seen, this issue isn't black and white and should be judged on a case by case basis.
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« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2006, 02:42:49 AM »

In saying that kissing is a "flawed action", you might as well claim that five fingers are four. I will discuss with my priest about this matter.
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« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2006, 02:43:19 AM »

I don't think the desire to kiss someone is a weakness and neither do societal pressures matter when it comes to love and dating. As far as I've seen, this issue isn't black and white and should be judged on a case by case basis.

But you're making it a necessity to prove people around you, including your own girlfriend that you're not gay/asexual.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2006, 02:45:17 AM »

But you're making it a necessity to prove people around you, including your own girlfriend that you're not gay/asexual.

God bless.

Mina

Kissing obviously feels different if with a lover rather than a sister. How do you know you are romantically interested in someone without kissing? Some people may be able to but it's something I've never seen nor thought of. If you kiss for the first time and it doesn't feel right, like it is not the right person for you, then you've definitely learned something.
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« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2006, 02:51:53 AM »

Kissing obviously feels different if with a lover rather than a sister. How do you know you are romantically interested in someone without kissing? Some people may be able to but it's something I've never seen nor thought of.

Well, that's why there's the concept of dating.  To talk and get to know who you are going out with, and to frequently date to understand one another's love and to share one another's life.  The concept may be hard for you to accept because you're surrounded by those who do not have such a concept, which doesn't excuse kissing before marriage.  If a city is full of promiscuous people who cannot fully understand how someone is romantic without sex on the first date, are you to allow sex simply because of society's inability to understand true romance and love in the spiritual aspect before marriage?

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2006, 03:01:00 AM »

I don't think the desire to kiss someone is a weakness and neither do societal pressures matter when it comes to love and dating. As far as I've seen, this issue isn't black and white and should be judged on a case by case basis.
Yet your illustration that a man might be seen to be gay if he didn't contradicts this. You need to make up your mind Huh
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« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2006, 03:02:29 AM »

Well, that's why there's the concept of dating.  To talk and get to know who you are going out with, and to frequently date to understand one another's love and to share one another's life.  The concept may be hard for you to accept because you're surrounded by those who do not have such a concept, which doesn't excuse kissing before marriage.  If a city is full of promiscuous people who cannot fully understand how someone is romantic without sex on the first date, are you to allow sex simply because of society's inability to understand true romance and love in the spiritual aspect before marriage?

God bless.

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Indeed. I think a woman would get the 'clue' that the guy's interested in her by the candles at dinner!  Roll Eyes

Maybe Matthew777 thinks women aren't that perceptive and that unless your tounge's half-way down her throat she won't know.
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« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2006, 03:08:21 AM »

Indeed. I think a woman would get the 'clue' that the guy's interested in her by the candles at dinner!  Roll Eyes

lol...indeed...you wouldn't do that to a mere sister Cheesy.
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« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2006, 03:17:06 AM »

lol...indeed...you wouldn't do that to a mere sister Cheesy.

Except in Tasmania

(sorry, it's an Australian joke)
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« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2006, 03:19:04 AM »

Kissing obviously feels different if with a lover rather than a sister. How do you know you are romantically interested in someone without kissing? Some people may be able to but it's something I've never seen nor thought of. If you kiss for the first time and it doesn't feel right, like it is not the right person for you, then you've definitely learned something.

I'd still like to know what exactly your position is. You've mentioned perceptions of gayness; this sounds more like insecurity.

Aren't the absolute standards and morals that you believe in; that regardless of whether people feel that they are 'funny', you'd still stand by them?
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« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2006, 10:31:33 AM »

I'm speaking of romantic love. How do you know if you romantically love someone without kissing? Self-sacrifice is not just characteristic of a romantic relationship but platonic friendship also. ÂÂ

   I have always known I was romantically in love with a girl partly because it "feels different" just being with her than with other girls. Your DESIRE to kiss her is evidence enough that you're already romantically interested. Would you also have to have sex with her before you KNEW you wanted to have children with her? What would be the use of quoting canons and Scriptures when Christian common sense should be enough to see through the world's seductive siren song?
   We can know whether we love a girl without adopting the world's standards of dating and marriage, but we can only love God through obedience to His standards. If you want to dispute the fact that the Church as our spiritual Mother has always had strict standards regarding pre-marital physical intimacy, then the burden of proof does not lie with those who defend the traditional teaching but with those who question it. Honestly, did you come to the Church to "fix" everything you think is wrong with her or to be fixed of the things that are wrong with you?

In Christ,
Rd. David
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« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2006, 11:00:11 AM »

Here's the way I look at this stuff --

If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

All of these taboos were created by Men who saw their daughters simply as bargaining chips in order to obtain wealth and power. "Damaged goods" are worth nothing in the marketplace.

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« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2006, 11:15:07 AM »

Honestly, I'm not sure whether there is much more to discuss. Unless you are able to prove that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'm not going to give it up. I am more than happy with giving up sex, especially with all the crazy dangers out there, but not kissing.

Peace.


 ÃƒÆ’‚  At the risk of sounding too harsh:

 ÃƒÆ’‚  Please, Matthew, don't sound so smug. You've only proven that you are a lonely twenty-something who is willing to go through mental gymnastics to justify doing something you already know the Church says not to do in order to keep the pleasure without the guilt. We shouldn't approach the moral teachings of the Church with a superior attitude but with humility. Yet, whenever someone gives a reason for the Church's stand on something you are ready to pick it apart with worldly "wisdom". If you're going to do something anyway, just do it. By constructing intellectual-sounding arguments to justify your choices you will only make it harder to repent later when you are older and wiser.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  Here's something to ask your Father Confessor that should clear this up sufficiently:
"Father, I really want to live a God-pleasing life and not to follow my own will- as a single Christian, is french kissing and making out compatible with what the Church teaches regarding chastity or not? If I am serious about growing in Christ as an Orthodox Christian is this something I can fell free to do or should I avoid it?"
 ÃƒÆ’‚ That's really as hard as finding the answer needs to be................

In Christ,
Rd. David
 
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« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2006, 11:29:26 AM »

Here's the way I look at this stuff --

If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

All of these taboos were created by Men who saw their daughters simply as bargaining chips in order to obtain wealth and power. "Damaged goods" are worth nothing in the marketplace.



  I get it- a man who is chaste is treating women as bargaining chips, one who is not is simply being natural. And all the Scriptures which enjoin chastity, purity (even in our thoughts), fidelity, etc. are man-made taboos? Tom, television and the movies are not the best place to be forming our values from........

  As for the stranded couple on the island- they can pray to be rescued. And I am sure if they fall in love and "marry" as best they can, the Church will have some type of economia that will cover their UNIQUE situation. If we try to make common norms from such one-of-a-kind situations we destroy any ability to know anything. As a matter of fact, I think I remember the Church excercizing this kind of economia in regards to people who lived in the wilderness of Alaska and other places. They came together as husband and wife and regularized their marriage as soon as they were able, sometimes years after the fact due to their remoteness from society.

In Christ,
Rd. David
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« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2006, 12:43:03 PM »

Sometimes I think people argue here just to win debates, regardless of how absurd or impractical their position is Roll Eyes
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« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2006, 12:49:41 PM »

Sometimes I think people argue here just to win debates, regardless of how absurd or impractical their position is Roll Eyes

Theology IS ALL ABOUT debates!
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« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2006, 01:39:20 PM »

Sometimes I think people argue here just to win debates, regardless of how absurd or impractical their position is Roll Eyes

I agree- and I have noticed that what seems "absurd or impractical" is largely a matter of of perspective based both on experience and one's presuppositions. The situation E.A. shared regarding he and his fiance or that of many other pious couples I have met makes perfect sense when one's starting point is Scripture, Tradition, the historic stance of the Church and a firm belief that with God's help all things are possible. It's also very practical and doable. Faith makes it so.
  If one does not start with the fullness of the Faith as the place to get our answers from then, of course, those answers wil seem absurd to some. The Scripture says that we will look like fools to the world.
   Conversely, to one who is steeped in Scripture and Tradition, the world's ways of deciding what is right and wrong will seem absurd as well..........

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« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2006, 01:59:01 PM »

 If one does not start with the fullness of the Faith as the place to get our answers from then, of course, those answers wil seem absurd to some. The Scripture says that we will look like fools to the world.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  Conversely, to one who is steeped in Scripture and Tradition, the world's ways of deciding what is right and wrong will seem absurd as well..........

Did you write this without laughing? 'Cause I certainly cannot read it without laughing.

If this is about Faith and Scriputure - explain to me the cultures who did not come out of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Have you researched ancient cultures (and by ancient, I don't mean BYZANTIUM!) and even current cultures that hold these types of "sex taboos"?

It is all about property and the idea that females are not "fully developed" creatures who cannot make decisions on their own.
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« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2006, 02:05:42 PM »

Did you write this without laughing? 'Cause I certainly cannot read it without laughing.

If this is about Faith and Scriputure - explain to me the cultures who did not come out of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Have you researched ancient cultures (and by ancient, I don't mean BYZANTIUM!) and even current cultures that hold these types of "sex taboos"?

It is all about property and the idea that females are not "fully developed" creatures who cannot make decisions on their own.


Pull yourself together, Tom. This thread was started by Matthew's question whether Christians can engage in passionate kissing before marriage. So we only need to concentrate on the basis of Christianity's specific stand on this issue for now. And, since Matthew is asking the question we are specifically discussing a man practicing chastity according to Christian norms.

   Oh, and thank you for proving my point on presuppositions and stances............
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« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2006, 03:13:23 PM »

Did you write this without laughing? 'Cause I certainly cannot read it without laughing.

If this is about Faith and Scriputure - explain to me the cultures who did not come out of Judeo-Christian beliefs. Have you researched ancient cultures (and by ancient, I don't mean BYZANTIUM!) and even current cultures that hold these types of "sex taboos"?

It is all about property and the idea that females are not "fully developed" creatures who cannot make decisions on their own.


And cultures that believed in God only did so to gain power over the people. Roll Eyes

God bless.

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« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2006, 03:23:46 PM »

Theology IS ALL ABOUT debates!

Dude, you crack me up! Who said theology is all about debates? If one sees your claim from the participants of this forum  perspective that will probably make perfect sense. How ever, if  what you had in mind was the theology in true Christianity, your claim is out of touch, to say the least.
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« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2006, 03:54:25 PM »

I'd still like to know what exactly your position is.

Kissing will obviously feel different with someone you like more than a friend, more than you would a sister. When first dating someone, when you share your first kiss, it is a very good way to gauge whether you like that person more than a friend, whether you want to continue dating that person. It will obviously feel different. It's also good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way.

Peace.
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« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2006, 03:58:37 PM »

You've only proven that you are a lonely twenty-something who is willing to go through mental gymnastics to justify doing something you already know the Church says not to do in order to keep the pleasure without the guilt.

I'm not usually lonely. I am rather involved with the Church, my school, and circle of friends. Even when I'm alone in my room, I have the Karamazovs to keep me company. I'm not trying to see how far I can go without getting in trouble, which is most definitely a middle school mentality, but what the clear rules are on this matter. If it isn't so black and white, then that's tough for me because I usually see the world in black and white terms.

Peace.
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« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2006, 05:21:28 PM »

I'm not usually lonely. I am rather involved with the Church, my school, and circle of friends. Even when I'm alone in my room, I have the Karamazovs to keep me company. I'm not trying to see how far I can go without getting in trouble, which is most definitely a middle school mentality, but what the clear rules are on this matter. If it isn't so black and white, then that's tough for me because I usually see the world in black and white terms.

Peace.


   I apologize for saying this WAS your motivation (as if I know your heart). I should have asked WHETHER it was- and that in a private message.
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« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2006, 05:53:12 PM »

Basically, as far as I see it, this issue should be treated on a case by case basis. While some may feel comfortable in kissing before marriage, so long as it doesn't lead to pre-marital sex, others do not. There is nothing inherently sinful about kissing, as long as you don't allow it to go to far. It can be a healthy way of gauging what your feelings are for a person and expressing those feelings.

Peace.
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« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2006, 06:12:04 PM »

I think that if you are kissing someone, you already knew beforehand that you liked them in a romantic way. But, to clarify, are you saying you are comfortable with the occasional brief affectionate kiss or sitting and "necking"? I myself find nothing wrong with the former (although I admire and find nothing wrong with abstaining even from that), but with the latter- I am sure that the universal Christian tradition before the "sexual revolution" would condemn it. Is there any evidence to the contrary?
 As for setting myself up against the universal Christian belief or practice on ANY level- theologically or morally- I hope I never find myself THAT "mature" because "pride cometh before a fall"...........
   And, yes, there are many things that can be decided on a case by case basis pastorally in union with your confessor. The extent to fast if you have weaknesses prohibitting you to fast fully, for example. But in the realm of basic Christian morality- I don't see that that can be changed on a case by case basis any more than dogma can be changed. Something is either true or false, it is either right or wrong, but in e.g. fasting: THIS is the ideal for the average Christian but because of weakness, we allow YOU to do this...............
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« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2006, 06:19:55 PM »

But, to clarify, are you saying you are comfortable with the occasional brief affectionate kiss or sitting and "necking"?

I'm not sure yet, I like both. I'll have to discuss this with my confessor. Thank you for your time.

Peace.
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« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2006, 06:29:25 PM »

May God grant you wisdom as you seek His perfect will.

In Christ,
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« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2006, 07:45:34 PM »

Matthew

I think the best thing to do is talk it over with your FoC.  Perhaps as a side note, from personal experience, use forums just for theology.  Anything that you do personally (how and what you pray, how late in the day you break your fast, etc.) I would suggest keep between you and your spiritual director.

With that said, I think Timos makes a wonderful point.  There are clearly different types of kissing, some are a very minute but strong outward sign of feelings, and I personally believe between unmarried couples is completly acceptable.  There are of course, "deeper" kisses that should be left for marriage.  I know I'm probably going to get shot down for my advice, since now I am clearly struggling keeping the Orthodox faith.  

Anyways, I hope all is well  Smiley

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« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2006, 07:58:30 PM »

Like I said, kissing is necessary to tell whether you like someone more than you would a friend. I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Peace.

I don't want to bring this back, but I would be remiss if I didn't put my 2 cents in  Wink

If the girl doesn't understand that you want to be pure because of CHRIST then i'm not sure if that's the best girl for you.  

Trust me I know how ignorant that may seem to you.  I also don't want to disclose my escapades on the internet, but i've had my more than fair share of "relationships" so I know how impossible it may seem to not kiss a girl.  But I know that the gf that I have now is perfect because I know that if I had never kissed her she still would have loved me and wanted to be my partner for life.  We did kiss and still do, but it usually tends to not be the nice hey how you doing kiss...i'll leave it there...
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« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2006, 08:05:51 PM »


Maybe Matthew777 thinks women aren't that perceptive and that unless your tounge's half-way down her throat she won't know.

You know, i'm sorry to tell you but every girl i've ever "dated" or gone on 1 date with has NEVER IN MY LIFE appreciated little signals.  no girl has even said THANK YOU for me opening a door for her.  And that's a common courtesy.  No girl has ever said THANK YOU or realized what was going on when I took her to SUPER fancy restaurants, or made dinner MYSELF.

Sorry to bring up personal experiences but i've had too many girls screw up my image of "being a good guy" to let people think that stereotypes still exist today.  I've never in my life met a girl (present example excluded) that appreciated these things.  I had to become the "bad-guy" in order to even date!!!  

This is why I said that if the girl doesn't understand chastity, etc. then maybe she's not for you.  All my relationships didn't work because the girl either didn't get it, was uncouth, or I just picked a girl with whom things would DEFINATELY not work out in the future, but was focused on the short-term.  
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« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2006, 08:25:47 PM »

If the girl doesn't understand that you want to be pure because of CHRIST then i'm not sure if that's the best girl for you. ÂÂ

Purity and physical sharing of affection can co-exist. For the first time of my life, I've decided to date not just "for fun" but hopefully, to grow in the Lord with a member of the opposite sex, to help lead each other to salvation. If kissing isn't allowed in that equation, that's something I'll have to deal with. I'm sorry I've shared too much of my personal life.

Peace.
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« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2006, 08:44:24 PM »

If you can keep your mind and intentions pure while kissing, go with God.  If not, then it won't matter whether you're kissing or not - lust doesn't require physical contact.  In the end, the ongoing battle for purity in a monogamous relationship is one that will be fought with the help of your other, spiritual guide, guardian angel, et al.

As for "shared too much" - you should feel comfortable enough in an Orthodox dialogue environment to share, just be warned that some here are not as mature as others and will take the opportunity to poke fun/be immature about it.  It is probably best then to not divulge too much (and thus not lead them into temptation) but rather enough that people see your perspective/predicament.
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« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2006, 08:59:07 PM »

In the end, the ongoing battle for purity in a monogamous relationship is one that will be fought with the help of your other, spiritual guide, guardian angel, et al.

If it's such a battle where one must constantly worry about falling into temptation, I hope there is still joy to be found in dating. Otherwise, perhaps we should teach ourselves to be asexual.

Peace.
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« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2006, 09:24:25 PM »

If you can keep your mind and intentions pure while kissing, go with God.

Apart from my argument that one cannot trust their own introspective conscious on these matters, since one may easily under-estimate the effects that such physical activity may have, or equally over-estimate their ability to resist any temptations inspired by such activity, I would also like to point out the fact that one is also accountable for whatever temptations or sins they may lead their partner into. Let's assume for arguments sake, that one is capable of kissing a girl without there being anything sinful provoked, whether in the mind or the flesh, nor any temptation inspired; can that person be assured that they will not in turn provoke or inspire such things in the one whom they intend to kiss? I don't think that's possible.
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« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2006, 09:37:37 PM »

That's another good point EA has made- St. Paul laid down this principle of conduct in 1 Corinthians in dealing with a different subject. He said that he would never do anything that could cause scandal or lead another believer into sin. We ARE our brother's (and sister's) keepers.........
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« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2006, 11:14:33 PM »

Well, then, I am curious as to what you would think St. Paul meant when he said that he would not allow a man to "touch" a woman.  What does "touch" mean to you, or what did St. Paul mean?  What to the Holy Fathers say?

God bless.

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« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2006, 11:25:59 PM »

Well, then, I am curious as to what you would think St. Paul meant when he said that he would not allow a man to "touch" a woman.  What does "touch" mean to you, or what did St. Paul mean?  What to the Holy Fathers say?

God bless.

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I fail to see how kissing is fornication.

Peace.
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« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2006, 11:45:09 PM »

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband." (v. 3)

What does "due affection" mean?
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« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2006, 12:16:01 AM »

If it's such a battle where one must constantly worry about falling into temptation, I hope there is still joy to be found in dating. Otherwise, perhaps we should teach ourselves to be asexual.

Peace.

Honestly, why wouldn't there be?  There is nothing that says one cannot find joy in life, even while fighting against temptation.  Avoiding sin is less about "worrying" - which can lead into more sin than what was possible in the first place - and more about putting oneself in a positive direction towards God.  He'll take care of the rest.
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« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2006, 12:31:41 AM »

 There is nothing that says one cannot find joy in life, even while fighting against temptation. ÂÂ

If kissing itself is giving into temptation, then I might as well stay home and eat peanuts rather than date. Please forgive me if that sounds immature.

Peace.
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« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2006, 12:40:53 AM »

it seems like you're prone to always take an extreme view of what is being said, and it is affecting the direction of this conversation.  there isn't anything wrong with this per se, but I think this tendency is being read into other people's comments (like mine) where it isn't intended.  tell me if I'm wrong on this observation.
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« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2006, 12:51:00 AM »

it seems like you're prone to always take an extreme view of what is being said, and it is affecting the direction of this conversation. ÂÂ

Though you haven't claimed that kissing before marriage is wrong, others have. As far as I know, I would agree more with you than others.

Peace.
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« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2006, 12:52:43 AM »

Eh, what can I say.  What is nice about the site is you're able to get the whole spread of opinion, and use it to help your own.  But as I said, the real progress on a very personal issue like this will be made with the person in question, your spiritual guide, and lots of prayer.
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« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2006, 01:02:55 AM »

What is nice about the site is you're able to get the whole spread of opinion, and use it to help your own. ÂÂ

Exactly. I wouldn't have posted this thread if I were to ignore the opinions of fellow Orthodox youth.

 But as I said, the real progress on a very personal issue like this will be made with the person in question, your spiritual guide, and lots of prayer.

That is good advice, something I will do as soon as possible.

Peace.
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« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2006, 10:31:36 AM »

Exactly. I wouldn't have posted this thread if I were to ignore the opinions of fellow Orthodox youth.

Yeah. You will find a great deal of wisdom in youth ?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2006, 02:06:32 PM »

I'm always disappointed/amused to see Christians trying to basically justify sexual foreplay outside of the confines of marriage.  While a chaste peck on the cheek is one thing, toying with anything beyond this is quite another matter.  If I'm way off base here folks, tell me - would you "french kiss" your mother?  Your sister?  The Priest after Liturgy?  Such sexual acts, even if they don't end in "genital activity" are proper to marriage.  Goodness knows, I'm sure more than a few Priests have had to hear confessions from young people whose sad tale begins with "well, it just started with some kissing."

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« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2006, 02:15:23 PM »

Matthew,

Quote
Kissing is a good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way, there is nothing inherently sinful about it.

How exactly is this different than the social degenerates who teach that it's good for unmarried people to see if they're "sexually compatable" before getting married?

Goodness, young people are so self deceptive in these matters (and not just the young either) - believe me Matthew, if a young couple are basically normal, love each other, and get married, they will have no problems sharing affection in a healthy way.  This "sex stuff" is not exactly new, y'know.

Quote
Not kissing because you refrain from pre-marital sex is like starving yourself from food out of fear of overeating.

No, it's more like not playing with matches next to a gas pump.  Besides, what are you "starving" from?  You do realize that the virtue of chastity in the unmarried is lived in the exact same way (ideally) as it is in those sworn to perpetual celibacy, no?  I know you OO's have monks, so this isn't a mystery to you.

Quote
If you are going to make the claim that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'd hope that you can back it up.

Simple - sexual kissing isn't appropriate.  And if you want a definition of just what that is (lest you be tempted to fool yourself), here it is - kissing someone in a way that you know full well wouldn't be appropriate (and just plain gross) if you were kissing your mother or your sister.
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« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2006, 02:18:10 PM »

Aurelia,

Quote
Trust me, if you don't at least try to kiss her, she's going to think you don't really like her.

Perhaps, if she doesn't understand her boyfriend's faith, and is used to associating such advances with genuine affection.

Quote
And yes there is a HUGE difference between romantic or even pretty passionate kissing and getting to the point where you really should get a room.

Ummm...what exactly?  Maybe it could be I'm simply "too good" at this for my own good (ask the wife) to see anything but a difference in degree, not kind.

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« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2006, 02:20:29 PM »

EnkhristosAnesti,

Quote
Like I said earlier, save yourself for your wife, completely, and she'll truly appreciate it. My fiancee and I always joke around about who loved the other first, in a competitive sense, but now I realise, that she truly loved me first, because she loved me before she even met me.

Very beautiful words my friend.  I guess we can say we agree on something here after all. Smiley

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« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2006, 02:32:22 PM »

TomS,

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If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

Believe it or not, I agree with you here.  However, everything has a time and a place, if we're going to be children of God.

For example, it's also "natural" to be aggitated and feel violent passions when we are sorely challenged and threatened.  In some contexts, those feelings may serve us well (ex. we're being attacked by someone who intends to do us harm.)  However, this is sadly where the whole "fallen humanity" thing comes in - our "feelings" are not always in line or proportional with circumstances.  The same is true with sexual desire; otherwise, we'd only have to contend with such feelings after we say the "I do's"; in the same way, we'd never hear about people losing control of themselves and murdering one another over triffles.

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« Reply #100 on: March 27, 2006, 03:34:53 PM »

I'm always disappointed/amused to see Christians trying to basically justify sexual foreplay outside of the confines of marriage.

I hope you realize how extreme that sounds.

Kissing /=/ Sexual foreplay

Peace.
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« Reply #101 on: March 27, 2006, 03:40:14 PM »

I hope you realize how extreme that sounds.

Kissing /=/ Sexual foreplay

Peace.

Kissing in general is not. However, Augustine created a distinction between different types of kissing. By removing that distinction, you have misquoted his arguement.
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« Reply #102 on: March 27, 2006, 03:42:28 PM »

French kissing is not inherently sinful. I don't know why I'm still even discussing this. I'm going to go to a friend's house to watch gangster films.

Peace.
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« Reply #103 on: March 27, 2006, 03:53:51 PM »

French kissing is not inherently sinful. I don't know why I'm still even discussing this.

Well, then, besides marriage(/dating too if you wish), what purpose does it have?
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« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2006, 03:54:16 PM »

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French kissing is not inherently sinful
I do not believe in a set of rules and a laundry list when it comes to orthodox practice of their faith, whether it appears in a life of purity, in a theological argument or whether it manifests itself in a virtue. The fruits come from a good tree, such is the golden rule for christianity.

If a person cannot discern whether french kissing (outside marriage) is sinful or not, and still believes he/she is orthodox while being lustful, he/she better checks the foundation again that brought such fruits. The fruits speaks volumes of the corruption of the values. This is still a better situation than actually acknowledging the error, yet choosing to defend the wrong point of view because one cannot overcome his/her passions, choosing therefore to try to make it "legal" and acceptable.
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« Reply #105 on: March 28, 2006, 04:13:35 AM »

Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time. I am the worst of all sinners and therefore, hope to learn whatever I must learn to avoid sin. But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it? If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Peace.
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« Reply #106 on: March 28, 2006, 05:37:25 AM »

Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time. I am the worst of all sinners and therefore, hope to learn whatever I must learn to avoid sin. But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it? If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Peace.

It is quite possible to enjoy life and follow Christ at the same time. There are also a number of ways one activity can exclude another. But I am still wondering what use French kissing has outside of marriage. If you find a use, perhaps then you will have a reasonable case for it.
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« Reply #107 on: March 28, 2006, 05:45:55 AM »

Pop quiz:

Threads created by Matthew get so popular because:

a) He's a popular guy.
b) His topics are hot.
c) He just never gets it.
d) No one else ever gets it.
e) He doesn't want to ever get it.
f) No one else ever wants to get it.
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« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2006, 05:52:11 AM »

But I am still wondering what use French kissing has outside of marriage.

What use does driving a mini-van have outside of marriage?
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« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2006, 05:53:51 AM »

What use does driving a mini-van have outside of marriage?

Transporting people. What does a mini-van have to do with marriage anyways? I think you're stereotyping....
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« Reply #110 on: March 28, 2006, 05:55:29 AM »

e)
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« Reply #111 on: March 28, 2006, 06:12:31 AM »

Here's the way I look at this stuff --

If you put a male and a female on a desert island with no other influences or past experiences, anything that will occur between them could not possibly be sinful. Romance, kissing, sex would occur as natural God created acts. There is nothing sinful in them - by themselves.

All of these taboos were created by Men who saw their daughters simply as bargaining chips in order to obtain wealth and power. "Damaged goods" are worth nothing in the marketplace.


So we can throw out most of the Bible's prohibitions, because they're all man made! Shocked
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« Reply #112 on: March 28, 2006, 06:13:58 AM »

Theology IS ALL ABOUT debates!
Theology is about truths and defending them. You seem to think that long held truths are man-made
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« Reply #113 on: March 28, 2006, 06:15:24 AM »

Kissing will obviously feel different with someone you like more than a friend, more than you would a sister. When first dating someone, when you share your first kiss, it is a very good way to gauge whether you like that person more than a friend, whether you want to continue dating that person. It will obviously feel different. It's also good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way.

Peace.

That's assuming that it's healthy, and it's not... given that Jesus says one shouldn't be lustful before marriage.
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« Reply #114 on: March 28, 2006, 06:19:41 AM »

Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time. I am the worst of all sinners and therefore, hope to learn whatever I must learn to avoid sin.
Where in the Bible does it say "Let there be fun?" (certainly it can't be 'fun' if it's at the expense of your soul)

But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it?
You've already decided this, yet at the same time 'not', as you give it the means of testing someone's own feelings - and also to protect yourself from being labelled gay.

These are ulterior motives. If it's just 'innocent' why don't you try it with the next person you meet on a bus or train... see if it has any connotations.

If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Peace.
You've already done this by giving into your desires to test your 'potential mate's' own reactions.
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« Reply #115 on: March 28, 2006, 06:29:37 AM »

Matthew,

Though i've given up on you, i thought i'd give you one last shot; hopefully the words of a Bishop will have some weight for you. H.G Bishop Youssef was asked the following question by a certain youth:

Is it sinful for a female to kiss a male even if it feels good, satisfying and would be considered by me as a sign of affection and not sex?

To which he answered:

If kissing did not feel good no one would have the desire to do it. Like everything else in life there is a time and a season for everything. Kissing a guy who is not your husband is definitely wrong no matter how good it felt. Since you felt good this implies that you would not mind doing it again! And when you do it again, this ‘affection’ will not stop at kissing but you will desire more intimacy and as St. James says, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death" (James 1:14).

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« Reply #116 on: March 28, 2006, 10:01:42 AM »

Theology is about truths and defending them. You seem to think that long held truths are man-made

Yes, I do.

So we can throw out most of the Bible's prohibitions, because they're all man made! Shocked

Not necessarily. Basic rules such as treat people well, do not kill, etc. are common tenants of a civilized sociery - They are relevant. However, passages and Church canons that related to a specific time in societal evolution are not.
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« Reply #117 on: March 28, 2006, 01:35:14 PM »

Matthew,

Quote
I hope you realize how extreme that sounds.

Kissing /=/ Sexual foreplay

No, what I said was "sexual kissing" = foreplay.  Nice try though... however, don't try and b.s. a b.s'er.

...And don't even try telling me it's not "sexual" - if it weren't you wouldn't be so antsy to do it.

Quote
French kissing is not inherently sinful. I don't know why I'm still even discussing this.

There's really no "nice" or "modest" way of putting this, but I'll try nonetheless.

Replace "french kissing" in that sentence with something obviously "(married!) adults only" [ here ] and see just how silly you sound.

"[ BEEP! ] is not inherently sinful.  I don't know why I'm still even discussing this."

As for why you're still discussing this, that's easy - either because you love to just stir "stuff", or because you're trying to convince yourself of something.  Fortunately, I think your conscience may be in better shape than some here have allowed you to convince them of.

Quote
Sometimes, people are a little too "Orthodox", not realizing that one can enjoy life and love Christ at the same time.

(putting the "let's see how dumb Matt sounds filter on")

"Sometimes, people are a little too 'Orthodox", not realizing that one can have lots of care free and consensual sex with many people, and love Christ at the same time."

Quote
But kissing is supposed to be innocent and good, isn't it?

In the way you're referring to, within marriage, yes.

Quote
If you let your passions take control, then it has gone too far.

Yes, but the very nature/purpose of the act you're describing is to excite the passions (otherwise people wouldn't!) - which apart from the embrace of spouses is unlawful, precisely it cannot licitly end in a moral/God-pleasing end.  And even when it stays "just a kiss", it still involves a level of familiarity and potential future intimacies which are wholly unlawful to any save a man and woman married to one another.
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« Reply #118 on: March 28, 2006, 11:52:31 PM »

Yes, I do.
My prayers go out to you, then
Not necessarily. Basic rules such as treat people well, do not kill, etc. are common tenants of a civilized sociery - They are relevant. However, passages and Church canons that related to a specific time in societal evolution are not.
You sort of betray yourself by qualifying those groups as 'civilised'. You're sort of half arguing against any absolutes, but saying that there are (within the qualification of a particular group of societies).
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« Reply #119 on: March 29, 2006, 12:02:14 AM »

montalban,

A society or culture need not believe something absolutely for it to be binding on the entire society. You are saying that Tom is "sort of" this and "sort of" doing that and maybe saying this and maybe half arguing that. Why don't you just ask him, instead of assuming what he's saying? If Tom is saying what I think he's saying, I would agree with him completely, and it would not be a double standard in accepting or denying absolutes.
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« Reply #120 on: March 29, 2006, 12:25:26 AM »

Though i've given up on you

That's very good. There is no reason for you to worry over me. Enjoy your life and walk in the Lord's path.

hopefully the words of a Bishop will have some weight for you.

The words of one bishop do not necessarily provide the consensus of the Church as a whole, something that I've been hoping to see. I thank you for sharing and hope the best for you and your bride. Marriage honestly scares me, especially having a father like mine, and I find your devotion to your boo to be commendable.

Tonight, I went to a lady's house to watch Goodfellas. She offered me a ride home so I gave her a peck on the cheek before leaving the car. She thanked me. What's there to thank me for? If I had just shaked her hand, her reaction may have been different. I've actually ended dates with handshakes before and it's always unexpected, like I did something uncool or wrong.

Peace.
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« Reply #121 on: March 29, 2006, 02:43:51 AM »

montalban,

A society or culture need not believe something absolutely for it to be binding on the entire society. You are saying that Tom is "sort of" this and "sort of" doing that and maybe saying this and maybe half arguing that. Why don't you just ask him, instead of assuming what he's saying? If Tom is saying what I think he's saying, I would agree with him completely, and it would not be a double standard in accepting or denying absolutes.
I am quite happy to continue to posit what I believe him to be saying. If he wished to correct me, then he's merely correcting my perception.

And as it stands I disagree with what seems to be an idea that Christian truth is relative.
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« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2006, 11:45:06 AM »

Quote
I am quite happy to continue to posit what I believe him to be saying.

Yeah, that's so much more in line with a truth seeker and lover of knowledge than actually asking someone for clarification of what they believe  Grin  Roll Eyes

Quote
If he wished to correct me, then he's merely correcting my perception.

But the point is, he shouldn't have to correct you. It's a dirty debating tactic. You leave a charge or accusation out there, and then if he doesn't respond people are more likely to remember the charge than to remember that silence doesn't validate the charge. It's sort of like someone asking "Did you get off welfare yet?" If the person doesn't answer, and there could be many reasons that they would not answer, then the impression left with the audience will be "I guess he didn't". However, this is not necessarily true. Similarly, you leave this charge out there, and then basically are trying to force Tom to answer you, or otherwise you will consider yourself correct. This is intellectually dishonest.

I might also add another logical irregularity that has been bugging me on OC.net among all these mighty debaters  Grin Roll Eyes  Someone using an ad hominem does not mean that a person must have a weak argument. Whoever thinks this needs to get a refund for their Philosophy 101 course that they're taking, because it's not doing much good (other than teaching them to be filled with strife, an unChristian characteristic the last time I read Paul's epistles). Someone might use an ad hominem if their position is weak or untenable, but there is nothing whatsoever preventing a person with a very strong position from also using an ad hominem. Indeed, if you read the Fathers, they often make ad hominem attacks (e.g., positing evil intentions in heretics, not just sincere but wrong beliefs...)  Launching an ad hominem most times has nothing to do with the weakness or strength of an argument, but with the mindset of the person doing the launching. Sometimes, for example, no matter how strong the argument, a person nonetheless can't resist taking a personal jab at a particularly antagonistic person who thinks they're all that.

Quote
And as it stands I disagree with what seems to be an idea that Christian truth is relative.

Well, Christian truth would be contextual, not relative, and not absolute. Just like any other truth.
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« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2006, 03:32:38 PM »

Nice article, who wrote it?  
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« Reply #124 on: March 29, 2006, 11:49:44 PM »

Quote
Tonight, I went to a lady's house to watch Goodfellas. She offered me a ride home so I gave her a peck on the cheek before leaving the car. She thanked me. What's there to thank me for? If I had just shaked her hand, her reaction may have been different. I've actually ended dates with handshakes before and it's always unexpected, like I did something uncool or wrong.

Hmmm...a peck in the cheek is way different from french kissing if you ask me.  I don't find anything wrong with a simple peck in the cheek of your own gf, since it's no different than what you do to your own mother.

However, if she expects you to french kiss, then it's no different than people who look at you weird if you don't go to bed with them, even during engagement.

God bless.

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« Reply #125 on: March 30, 2006, 12:12:54 AM »

It was my own thoughts, some of which closely related to Tom's, which is why I thought I'd re-enter the fray at this point.

I do apologize to Montalban for being rude earlier. I don't know what to say other than it was a bad day (as the rest of my posts today show), and I admit that I was being obnoxious.
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« Reply #126 on: March 30, 2006, 02:03:07 AM »

However, if she expects you to french kiss, then it's no different than people who look at you weird if you don't go to bed with them, even during engagement.

I'd wait until at least the third date to french kiss and sex, until marriage, would be out of the question. This isn't about falling to societal pressure but a matter of personal preference. Preferences, however, can be changed.

Peace.
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« Reply #127 on: March 30, 2006, 02:19:20 AM »

Sex isn't really that important. It's just important because we make it important in our heads. We think we will be fulfilled through it. I guess maybe you will be. But you can also learn to get fulfillment and joy out of other activities.
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« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2006, 02:25:06 AM »

Yeah, that's so much more in line with a truth seeker and lover of knowledge than actually asking someone for clarification of what they believe
You're championing a non-cause.
But the point is, he shouldn't have to correct you. It's a dirty debating tactic. You leave a charge or accusation out there, and then if he doesn't respond people are more likely to remember the charge than to remember that silence doesn't validate the charge. It's sort of like someone asking "Did you get off welfare yet?" If the person doesn't answer, and there could be many reasons that they would not answer, then the impression left with the audience will be "I guess he didn't". However, this is not necessarily true. Similarly, you leave this charge out there, and then basically are trying to force Tom to answer you, or otherwise you will consider yourself correct. This is intellectually dishonest.
If I said "You said this..." it is different from saying "My understanding of what you say is this", only you can't see the difference.
I might also add another logical irregularity that has been bugging me on OC.net among all these mighty debaters  ÃƒÆ’‚ Someone using an ad hominem does not mean that a person must have a weak argument. Whoever thinks this needs to get a refund for their Philosophy 101 course that they're taking, because it's not doing much good (other than teaching them to be filled with strife, an unChristian characteristic the last time I read Paul's epistles). Someone might use an ad hominem if their position is weak or untenable, but there is nothing whatsoever preventing a person with a very strong position from also using an ad hominem. Indeed, if you read the Fathers, they often make ad hominem attacks (e.g., positing evil intentions in heretics, not just sincere but wrong beliefs...)  Launching an ad hominem most times has nothing to do with the weakness or strength of an argument, but with the mindset of the person doing the launching. Sometimes, for example, no matter how strong the argument, a person nonetheless can't resist taking a personal jab at a particularly antagonistic person who thinks they're all that.
Irony going on about ad homs just after words about me being dishonest etc.
You need to find yourself another cause bellum
Well, Christian truth would be contextual, not relative, and not absolute. Just like any other truth.
Christian truth is absolutely true. That's why I'm a Christian. Your article starts off correctly, 'we' are all fallible. However God is not. God says "I am" and that is true. It is true absolutely.
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« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2006, 02:49:58 AM »

Further to Asteriktos' anti-(traditionalist) Christian stance, Jesus Christ promised that the body of the Church would be without error, and we Orthodox hold that this is true. It is absolutely true, because the Church is the Body of Christ here on earth.
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« Reply #130 on: March 30, 2006, 02:58:04 AM »

I'd wait until at least the third date to french kiss and sex, until marriage, would be out of the question. This isn't about falling to societal pressure but a matter of personal preference. Preferences, however, can be changed.

Peace.

If it's really about "personal preference," you shouldn't have even mentioned how weird woman think of you when you don't do it. Wink

Secondly, sometimes you have to admit that personal preference is sometimes the wrong preference if not guided by spiritual guidance and Tradition.

God bless you.
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« Reply #131 on: March 30, 2006, 03:10:15 AM »

Sex isn't really that important.

Of course, which is precisely why pre-marital sex isn't worth the risks.

Peace.
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« Reply #132 on: March 30, 2006, 03:16:56 AM »

If it's really about "personal preference," you shouldn't have even mentioned how weird woman think of you when you don't do it. Wink

That's part of it, obviously. Unless a man at least tries to kiss a woman, she'll feel uncertain as to whether he finds her attractive. Kissing, in that respect, is where I'd draw the line. A woman should also know that I respect her enough to not dump on her the baggage that comes with pre-marital sex.

Peace.
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« Reply #133 on: March 30, 2006, 04:29:21 AM »

Sex isn't really that important. It's just important because we make it important in our heads. We think we will be fulfilled through it. I guess maybe you will be. But you can also learn to get fulfillment and joy out of other activities.
Ah the destruction of real truths and the creation of relative truths. Of course a statement about there being no real truths is itself to make a paradox.




What is truth?" inquired Pilate of the incarnate Truth, wanting to hear with his own ears that which he did not perceive with his eyes, as though it was not the same soul that was hearing through his ears and seeing through his eyes. The God-man Christ is the Truth, not as word, neither as teaching nor as concrete energy, but as a most perfect and eternally living divine-human Hypostasis. It is only as a theanthropic Personality that He is the criterion of truth. It is for this reason that the God-man not only said, "I am the Truth," but also that, "I am the Way" (Jn. 14:6), that is, He is the way to Truth itself, the criterion of Truth itself, the essence of Truth itself. The criterion of Truth is the Truth itself, and the Truth is the God-man Christ. Thus, whatever does not come from Him is not from the Truth. The Truth cannot ontologically exist outside of his divine-human personality. Orthodox Faith and Life in Christ by Fr. (St.) Justin Popovich
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« Reply #134 on: March 30, 2006, 06:57:52 AM »

That's part of it, obviously. Unless a man at least tries to kiss a woman, she'll feel uncertain as to whether he finds her attractive. Kissing, in that respect, is where I'd draw the line. A woman should also know that I respect her enough to not dump on her the baggage that comes with pre-marital sex.

Peace.


Maybe you hang around with dumb women - I only say this because I think women are a lot smarter than what you seem to think; able to pick up on whether you're interested in them - even if you don't kiss them
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« Reply #135 on: March 30, 2006, 12:30:22 PM »

montalban

Quote
Ah the destruction of real truths and the creation of relative truths. Of course a statement about there being no real truths is itself to make a paradox.

Lol, I attempted to deal with both the "relative" thing, and the paradox charge in my thoughts linked to above. Since I'm leaving for work in about 8 minutes, I'll just cut and paste the relevant parts...

Quote
In practice, we should all be contextualists, in both beliefs and morals; but we normally gravitate towards defending subjectivism or absolutism in argument.  In this life we neither have any absolute understanding, nor apply things completely relatively, yet people resist the middle ground of dealing with each situation as it arises. Whatever people may want, they are normally forced to deal with reality as it really is, which means a moderate, contextual approach.
 
The relativist can be shown to not really be a relativist by asking any number of questions, such as asking whether it is wrong to rape a five year old girl repeatedly, until she dies. Obviously any sane person would answer that such a thing is certainly wrong. On the other hand, the absolutist can be shown to be wrong by pointing out that he cannot know anything infallibly, and thus absolutely, since he is a fallible being, and so at most can only claim to have "personally assured knowledge". Though there is an absolute and infallible true knowledge, this does not mean that a fallible human being is capable of understanding that true knowledge in it's entirety and profundity. Perhaps we only understand a miniscule fraction of that true knowledge, but that is enough for us to realise that, for one example, raping a five year old girl to death is wrong.
 
The would-be relativist thinks of truth as true personally for them but not for others, regardless of context; the would-be absolutist thinks of truths they affirm as true for everyone, regardless of context. In reality, they are not holding to truth itself, but just opinions....

(The exceptions arise when humanity generally agrees in their opinion. But this is not absolute truth, but just agreement in opinion that humanity finds important enough to attribute binding status to. An example of this is the belief that murder is a wrongful action, and should be punished.)

....This is not to denigrate opinion, since personal knowledge is all we have to go on as individuals. The problem is in trying to make our personal knowledge binding on others, when it should not be so. It is perfectly acceptable to say that "you shall not murder". However, it is not acceptable to say "You shall worship the Sun, or we will murder you."

Quote
Put simply, we can't unerringly know whether what we believe is absolutely true. We can come to have a more and more reliable understanding, but if what is being sought is infallible understanding, then that is not possible. Certainty or full assurance simply does not exist. While it would be impossible to go so far as to call this as an inviolate rule--since an infinite, infallible being might have such infallible understanding-- nonetheless as fallible humans we can never fully and with one-hundred percent assurance know that we are absolutely right. Fallible beings have no business claiming to know anything absolutely (ie. infallibly).
 
As an aside, when absolutists hear arguments like this, they often retort "Are you absolutely sure there are no absolutes?" It is a good paradoxical question, so far as it goes. However, if presented with this particular question, the answer given would simply be in the negative: no, we aren't sure absolutely that there are no absolutes. However, this lack of assurance is not a mark against any particular belief system, since the same answer applies to all belief systems, since all belief systems have been created, passed on, and are now interpreted by human beings, which most certainly are not infallible.

I'm also not sure how truths that are not absolute can be said to be necessarily not "real". Are you actually saying that a truth must be absolute or it is not real? because you seem to be using real and absolute truth as though they mean the same thing. Anyway, as to this...

Quote
Further to Asteriktos' anti-(traditionalist) Christian stance, Jesus Christ promised that the body of the Church would be without error, and we Orthodox hold that this is true. It is absolutely true, because the Church is the Body of Christ here on earth.

 
I'll be dealing with this relatively soon. I have hinted on this forum at various cracks that I've spotted in the whole "Trust us!" approach, but I've left a lot unsaid. I expect that I'll soon be saying a lot more. However, since this is orthodoxchristianity.net and not critiquechristianity.net, I'll probably post most of it off site.
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« Reply #136 on: March 30, 2006, 09:10:38 PM »

Maybe you hang around with dumb women - I only say this because I think women are a lot smarter than what you seem to think; able to pick up on whether you're interested in them - even if you don't kiss them

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.
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« Reply #137 on: March 31, 2006, 02:37:28 AM »

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.
You strongly suggest it because without kissing, you say, they won't know that you're interested. So the flowers, taking them out on a date, and saying "I really like you", won't do.
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« Reply #138 on: March 31, 2006, 02:40:57 AM »

montalban

Lol, I attempted to deal with both the "relative" thing, and the paradox charge in my thoughts linked to above. Since I'm leaving for work in about 8 minutes, I'll just cut and paste the relevant parts...
It's truly gladdening that you can tear yourself away from time to time to grant us a gleaning of your wisdom.
I'm also not sure how truths that are not absolute can be said to be necessarily not "real". Are you actually saying that a truth must be absolute or it is not real? because you seem to be using real and absolute truth as though they mean the same thing. Anyway, as to this...
No. I said there are absolute truths. Christianity speaks with these. You say Christian truth is 'contextual' and then you don't adddress the rest where I accepted that man is flawed, but God is not. But I can understand as you're in a hurry.
I'll be dealing with this relatively soon.
Thanks in advance, then
I have hinted on this forum at various cracks that I've spotted in the whole "Trust us!" approach, but I've left a lot unsaid. I expect that I'll soon be saying a lot more. However, since this is orthodoxchristianity.net and not critiquechristianity.net, I'll probably post most of it off site.
Great ploy. The old "I can argue, but I'm not allowed, but do be assured I'll post it 'somewhere'"

You've convinced me with that blistering attack
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« Reply #139 on: March 31, 2006, 02:42:20 AM »

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.

Oh, and other people are dumb too! Because without kissing a girl, they'll think you're gay Roll Eyes
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« Reply #140 on: March 31, 2006, 01:51:09 PM »

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.

And not kissing is unhealthy in a pre-marital relationship. Roll Eyes

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #141 on: April 01, 2006, 01:50:39 PM »

minasoliman,

I don't think that's what Mathew was talking about.  I'm not sure if we can just throw exact opposites at people and expect that to be the rebutle to their statements.  (not that i'm one to talk...)  

I think mathew was talking to what IS healthy, and to just say "well if this IS, then this MUST be NOT"  which doesn't really help to answer the question.  But who knows, maybe some people can get something out of statements like that... Smiley

Mathew,  

Here is a really interesting article where a guy talks about differences between Western understanding of love and intimacy, versus Eastern (Indian/Budhist) understanding of it.  It actually brings up really great points.  On the link, click on the section that says " showing affection" which I think has a lot of correlation to questions you bring up..

http://www.berzinarchives.com/buddhism_world_today/introduction_buddhist_sexual_ethics.html#contents

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« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2006, 12:45:31 AM »

minasoliman,

I don't think that's what Mathew was talking about.  I'm not sure if we can just throw exact opposites at people and expect that to be the rebutle to their statements.  (not that i'm one to talk...) ÂÂ

Matthew's quite welcome to explain himself here, but as far as I'm concerned he's largely ignored my posts when I've asked him about how kissing is important
a) to stop people thinking you're gay
and
b) to ensure women 'get' the message - as if there's no other way.
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« Reply #143 on: April 02, 2006, 01:51:43 AM »

Tomorrow morning, I will talk with my priest on the rightness or wrongness of kissing before marriage. I'll share his understanding of the matter with you.

Peace.
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« Reply #144 on: April 02, 2006, 11:07:56 AM »

Quote
Great ploy. The old "I can argue, but I'm not allowed, but do be assured I'll post it 'somewhere'"

Here you go.

And no no no, there's no need to thank me. The warm and charitable tone of your posts is Christian gratefulness enough!  Grin
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« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2006, 05:39:30 PM »

Tomorrow morning, I will talk with my priest on the rightness or wrongness of kissing before marriage. I'll share his understanding of the matter with you.

Peace.

A wise thing to do Smiley
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« Reply #146 on: April 25, 2006, 02:35:17 AM »

I don't know if this is legit or not, but check this out:

""To Touch A Woman." First, we want to understand what the phrase "to touch a woman" means. The phrase "to touch a woman" is an idiom that referred to "sexual relations." In fact, the Greek word that Paul uses for "to touch" is APTO. It has the sense of "touch," "cling," and "take hold of." It also has the sense of "light or kindle" such as "to kindle a fire." It was also used to refer to sexual relations between a man and a woman. In short, APTO can mean anything from a simple touch to having sexual relationships."
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00164.html

Peace.
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« Reply #147 on: April 25, 2006, 10:43:49 AM »

Dear Matthew,

Christ is risen!

I don't know if this is any helpful to you.  But I've talked with a good friend who happened to have repented from a life of adultery, and has been a great example in our church.

I asked him concerning passionate kissing, and he said that would be "playing with fire", because it's hard to separate the two, sexual feelings and passionate kiss.  There's nothing wrong with a peck on the lips or cheeks, but he would rather save passionate kisses until after marriage.

I know one Coptic bishop, HG Bishop Youssef, goes far in saying that even holding hands is considered "touching before marriage."  He is obviously a bishop who was a monk before, but it is of bishopric authority and wishes that we keep all "fuzzy" stuff until after marriage.  I guess you can look at it as "fasting before feasting."  If you find the perfect Orthodox girlfriend who understands that, this is an exercise that is quite commendable and is encouraged to be done.

God bless.

Mina

PS  Have you talked with your priest yet?
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« Reply #148 on: April 25, 2006, 10:47:41 AM »

I would venture to say, based on the website's explanation on "not touching" is that it is not only a physical thing, but a mental thing.  So even if a simply kiss causes sexual thoughts, then that also is "touching" according to St. Paul.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #149 on: April 25, 2006, 03:47:46 PM »

Here is a thought.  I met my husband when I was just 14 and I knew little to nothing of the fire that could be ignited-cept from health class and protestant folks that measured how far apart boys and girls sat in chapel.  Grin  As if that helped lessen the teen pregnancy rate.

IN a society so inundated with free sex, any little bit of excitement is going to set some guy in the direction intended in releasing all that fire being built up.  This isn't a century ago. Guys aren't nearly as are purely idealed as they used to be, and to be fair neither are the gals.
 The more a man is ignited, tv, movies, porn, internet, whatever-even a kiss is a big deal. It doesn't take much to get most younger men going. Heck, still doesn't take much for my man to get going and he is middle age.  
You gotta ask, is kissing something that you would do if Christ accompanied you on your date?  Maybe, if it was a gentlemanly kiss goodnight.  But I doubt that is the kinda kissin ya'll are referencing, eh? Wink
Ya'll are basically asking whether or not it's right to just sample a little bit. But if you aren't intent on marrying the lady you are with, then you are sampling some other man's wife.  Just a thought from someone that wishes she only had memories of the man she met at 14... hindsight is 20/20 you know
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« Reply #150 on: April 25, 2006, 06:56:41 PM »

 If you find the perfect Orthodox girlfriend...

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.

Peace.
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« Reply #151 on: April 25, 2006, 07:12:46 PM »

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.

Or you could just find a non-Orthodox girl who's right in every other respect and get to work converting her.  One of my former priests was a fan of evangelism by matrimony (and I've seen it happen several times at my parish).
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« Reply #152 on: April 25, 2006, 08:59:30 PM »

I've been trying to convert an atheist to the Christian faith because she visited our church one morning and I thought it was a sign from God. But lately I've been thinking that she may be too far gone. Oi vay.

Peace.
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« Reply #153 on: April 26, 2006, 10:08:34 AM »

church shopping?  Just walk into any Serbian church and you'll find the right girl within minutes.  Make sure you walk in after the Gospel, no one comes before then.   Wink

then you gota worry about their crazy idiosyncracies.  But the kissing's gona be amazing  Wink Wink  

Sorry about the craziness, Pascha always makes me giddy.   Grin
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« Reply #154 on: April 26, 2006, 10:48:51 AM »

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.

Peace.

Well, unless you want to suffer in that hell for the rest of your life trying to convert a woman with clear differences (not to mention the problems you will have with children) rather than resting on that one snowball that God may find you.

I've talked to a guy whose father is Coptic and mother is Catholic, and he advises us all if we were to marry, we should marry within our own church.  It's annoying for a child to choose between his mother and father's church.

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« Reply #155 on: April 26, 2006, 12:46:24 PM »

Or you could just find a non-Orthodox girl who's right in every other respect and get to work converting her.  One of my former priests was a fan of evangelism by matrimony (and I've seen it happen several times at my parish).

I've seen this done quite often at my church.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.  I've seen men and women convert in order to marry an Orthodox Christian and deepen their own Orthodox faiths and be very active in my parish.  (In the marriage of one couple that I really admire for making this work, the Orthodox man actually didn't propose marriage to his girlfriend until he made sure she embraced the Orthodox faith in her own convictions and not just to marry him.)

I've also seen those who converted to marry an Orthodox Christian only to never really grow in the faith and end up apostasizing.  (Can someone truly apostasize after never having become truly Orthodox?  I really don't know.  Baptism, Chrismation, and first Communion don't make someone truly Orthodox without the inner conversion of true repentance.)  One of my close friends married a man who converted just to marry her; they divorced after he apostasized.
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« Reply #156 on: April 26, 2006, 12:52:39 PM »

I can't think of any conversions before marriage that I've observed.  All the ones that come to mind are where it started as a mixed marriage and then the non-Orthodox spouse eventually converted.
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« Reply #157 on: April 26, 2006, 01:52:46 PM »

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.
Matthew, have you tried eharmony.com or something similar (but eharmony seems to be the best for Christians)?  You can specify a preference for Orthodox Christian matches, or widen the net a bit.  My boyfriend and I found each other online.  I was Protestant but ripe for conversion.  Smiley
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« Reply #158 on: April 26, 2006, 02:35:02 PM »

I've been trying to convert an atheist to the Christian faith because she visited our church one morning and I thought it was a sign from God. But lately I've been thinking that she may be too far gone. Oi vay.

Too far gone?  or might you be trying too hard or going at it the wrong way?  Maybe you aren't the right person to "convert" her.  Maybe she is feeling like "prey".  Do you know *why* she came to your church?  

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« Reply #159 on: April 26, 2006, 05:07:56 PM »

Too far gone?  or might you be trying too hard or going at it the wrong way?  Maybe you aren't the right person to "convert" her.  Maybe she is feeling like "prey".  Do you know *why* she came to your church?  

Ebor

By "prey", you mean "prey for one's own mating desires"?  In this case, "trying too hard" may actually be termed "coming on too strong".
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« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2006, 05:23:25 PM »

By "prey", you mean "prey for one's own mating desires"?  In this case, "trying too hard" may actually be termed "coming on too strong".

That is one way that the woman might feel like prey, and that might indeed be seen as "coming on too strong". Another is, might she feel like she is to be another 'notch on the belt' for someone who is trying to convert people?  

Ebor  

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« Reply #161 on: April 27, 2006, 12:29:13 AM »

 Do you know *why* she came to your church? ÂÂ

Her next-door neighbor invited her but she doesn't feel ready to make a faith commitment.
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« Reply #162 on: April 27, 2006, 01:12:52 AM »

maybe she was invited just for you?  Wink

Honestly though, you never know...

I would say keep talking to her as a girl, not as a convert, that way you have something BEFORE religion...not that religion shouldn't be a foundation, if not THE foundation.

I've just found it easier to talk about normal things with non-believers before I start cracking open the Bible or St. Athanasios' "On the Incarnation" etc.  
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« Reply #163 on: April 27, 2006, 08:15:52 PM »

I would say keep talking to her as a girl, not as a convert, that way you have something BEFORE religion...not that religion shouldn't be a foundation, if not THE foundation.

She asked me to stop talking to her, mostly because I'm too much into religion and she isn't ready for it. I'm still praying for her salvation though.

Peace.
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« Reply #164 on: April 27, 2006, 08:26:53 PM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!

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« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2006, 10:56:17 PM »

I converted to Orthodoxy in my junior year of high school, my parents were not involved.
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« Reply #166 on: April 28, 2006, 01:05:26 AM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!

Good point.  I bet you could find someone though, if you were willing to look outside Greek circles.  
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« Reply #167 on: April 28, 2006, 01:10:53 AM »

Good point.  I bet you could find someone though, if you were willing to look outside Greek circles. ÂÂ

Yeah, but how many of these would be psychologically stable? Take the seminary here for example, many people go to Church regularly, some even twice a day (or so I'm told by those who believe I should be in Church more), but I fear none of them could be properly considered psychologically stable Wink
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« Reply #168 on: April 28, 2006, 01:14:01 AM »

I'm not going near that one.  Wink
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« Reply #169 on: April 29, 2006, 08:15:51 AM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!


What's a yiayia? In looking it up I've found this site...
http://yiayia.org/
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« Reply #170 on: April 29, 2006, 07:20:53 PM »

Yiayia means "grandma" in Demotic Greek.

FYI: The proper accent is on the final syllable.
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« Reply #171 on: April 29, 2006, 08:04:46 PM »

Yiayia means "grandma" in Demotic Greek.

FYI: The proper accent is on the final syllable.
Ah, thanks you. That now makes sense.
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« Reply #172 on: April 30, 2006, 07:00:49 PM »

In Greek the first sylable is actually what we would consider the last sylable in a world.  Or in technical terms the ante-penalt.  

Also anyone who thinks that going to church all the time is a waste of time obviously has never been to church all the time.  If they had, then they would clearly know the benefits of being in the church all the time.  

Any girl who is willing to go to church all the time is either
1) obedient to her parents = a good thing
2) obedient to the church = a good thing
3) genuinly wants to be in church = a good thing

So hey, why not go for that kind of girl.  Plus they're usually the fun ones anyway  Wink
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« Reply #173 on: May 01, 2006, 12:14:19 AM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!




lol, that's a cute one Zoe. Yiayia knows best  Grin
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« Reply #174 on: May 19, 2006, 01:38:44 PM »

Forgive me for resurrecting the topic, but something came accross to me.

In American Protestant marriages, it seems to me all of the pastors end with the sentence to the man:  "You may now kiss the bride."  What does that signify in traditional American circles, and has that tradition been lost now that many seeing kissing as not the same thing as consummating a marriage?

God bless.

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« Reply #175 on: May 19, 2006, 02:18:30 PM »

What's a yiayia? In looking it up I've found this site...
http://yiayia.org/

Haha, that gave me a well-needed laugh.  Thanks Smiley
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