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Author Topic: No kissing before marriage?  (Read 19741 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: March 23, 2006, 09:20:16 PM »

In the world be live in, sexual abstinence isn't just religious dogma but good sense. It is not something that I'd dispute nor want to. But not all physical contact between persons is necessarily sinful. Take kissing, for example. If one allows the passions to take control, kissing can go too far. But it can be a greeting between neighbors and friends (of the same or opposite sex) or an expression of love between a dating couple.
If kissing is seen by some as an inherently sexual act that must be saved for marriage, perhaps that is a reaction to our oversexualized culture.
A 25-year-old couple can still have "puppy love", kissing and showing affection for each other without it leading to pre-marital sex. It's hard for me to see that as unnatural or wrong.

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2006, 09:39:52 PM »

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If kissing is seen by some as an inherently sexual act that must be saved for marriage, perhaps that is a reaction to our oversexualized culture.

I personally don't see a problem with kissing of any kind. However, there is clearly a difference between giving a "kiss of peace" at Church, and kissing your girlfriend/boyfriend for 5 minutes while on a date. Past Orthodox have given penances for kissing (and playing footsie, and all sorts of other things). Perhaps the 15th century Russians were oversexualized? Wink In any case, people know when they are crossing the line and not crossing it. And each person can (with their partner) create that line. For some, french kissing might be way too big a temptation, or others any kisses while alone might be a temptation, etc. For others, they might be able to french and feel no sexual attraction whatsoever (I know that sounds wierd, but it's true for some, it depends on what turns you on).
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2006, 09:44:50 PM »

For others, they might be able to french and feel no sexual attraction whatsoever

There is a difference between having sex appeal and being sex-obsessed. In choosing a marital partner, one common reason is that we feel sexually attracted to that person. There is nothing wrong with having sexual desires, it is how God made us. The problem is in when we allow those desires to consume us, leading to sexual sin.
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2006, 10:20:10 PM »

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And each person can (with their partner) create that line.

Never trust the introspective conscious when it comes to matters of sexuality. Furthermore, the temptation to cross the line will always be there, and it will only build up the further one pushes that line.

Save your first kiss for your wife Matthew; she'll appreciate it. Trust me.

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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2006, 11:42:58 PM »

Save your first kiss for your wife Matthew; she'll appreciate it. Trust me.

I've kissed probably five or six women in a romantic way. The thought of not kissing anyone until marriage sounds very ultra-conservative and backward to me. Could you please explain your rationale?
Kissing is a good way to see whether a person is able to share affection in a healthy way, there is nothing inherently sinful about it.

Peace.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2006, 03:31:30 AM »

Not kissing because you refrain from pre-marital sex is like starving yourself from food out of fear of overeating. It seems that this idea is going a little too far. If you are going to make the claim that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'd hope that you can back it up. Kissing of a good way to see whether a person is able to show affection in a healthy way. If you can quote a Bible verse against it, please do so.

Peace.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 06:17:12 AM »

I personally don't see a problem with kissing of any kind. However, there is clearly a difference between giving a "kiss of peace" at Church, and kissing your girlfriend/boyfriend for 5 minutes while on a date.
Doh! No wonder the priest looked angry at me!
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 08:34:29 AM »

Trust me, if you don't at least try to kiss her, she's going to think you don't really like her.

And yes there is a HUGE difference between romantic or even pretty passionate kissing and getting to the point where you really should get a room.
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2006, 09:10:06 AM »

Do you people like, ever read the Bible, or something?

If mere lustful thoughts fall under the category of adultery, then how much more so would actual physical activity? And any guy who thinks that the physical activity of kissing a girl doesn't really arouse any lustful passions, inspire further lustful thoughts, or increase one's susceptibility to temptation to further lustful activity, then they must have pulled an Origen or something. Just because you don't need a condom to kiss, that doesn't mean it's any more acceptable than sex.

I'm no Saint; God knows my past, and I am not inclined to reveal it over the internet, but I can at least say on a personal level, that my fiancee has never even hugged a guy before in her life. And no, that's not because she's fat and ugly; she's actually the most beautiful Copt i've ever seen in my life. She has fair skin and blue eyes (a one in a million chance outcome for a full-blooded Egyptian), and has been hit on enough times to really boil my blood, especially considering that she continues to be hit on during our engagement. The point is however, that she is one of those people who actually decided to save themselves--all of themselves, completely and perfectly--for their future spouse. She went through the effort of resisting those who offered her opportunities, and avoiding circumstances where temptation would have been potentially quite strong, and you can't imagine how much it means to me that she did that, and how ashamed of myself I feel that I couldn't do the same for her.

Like I said earlier, save yourself for your wife, completely, and she'll truly appreciate it. My fiancee and I always joke around about who loved the other first, in a competitive sense, but now I realise, that she truly loved me first, because she loved me before she even met me.
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2006, 04:35:22 PM »

Trust me, if you don't at least try to kiss her, she's going to think you don't really like her.

Does that include the first date?

Peace.
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2006, 04:38:43 PM »

my fiancee has never even hugged a guy before in her life.

There is a difference between sexual purity and sexual repression. Know what I mean?

Peace.
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2006, 04:50:44 PM »

Do you people like, ever read the Bible, or something?

If mere lustful thoughts fall under the category of adultery, then how much more so would actual physical activity? ......Like I said earlier, save yourself for your wife, completely, and she'll truly appreciate it. My fiancee and I always joke around about who loved the other first, in a competitive sense, but now I realise, that she truly loved me first, because she loved me before she even met me.

   Very, very well put! Honestly, would any Christian who was pure with his intended before marriage ever regret it? I hear very often people saying they wish they had not been as physically intimate before they got married but I have never heard of a Christian couple say they wish they had made out more. Waiting shows a loving respect that can only strengthen a marriage later on.
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2006, 04:56:19 PM »

There is a difference between sexual purity and sexual repression. Know what I mean?

Peace.


   It sounds to me like the young lady is not repressed but transfigured. Saving herself for the
the love of her life to that extent is a beautiful testimony to the operation of God's grace in her life.
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2006, 06:46:57 PM »


 ÃƒÆ’‚  It sounds to me like the young lady is not repressed but transfigured. Saving herself for the
the love of her life to that extent is a beautiful testimony to the operation of God's grace in her life.
I agree
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2006, 08:35:12 PM »

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Never trust the introspective conscious when it comes to matters of sexuality. Furthermore, the temptation to cross the line will always be there, and it will only build up the further one pushes that line.

Either that or one or both of the people will get so tired of trying to live like puritans that they'll dump the person and move on. All because a smooch was too lustful. If someone can go on in life like your fiancee then that's wonderful. Most people wouldn't be able to handle it however, and the thing that is more likely than your slippery slope scenario, is that most people would fail very quickly when trying to begin with such a rigid gameplan as you suggest people should. As for reading the Bible, I've read some of it, and what I see is stuff about how we shouldn't lust, and yet Abraham and all sorts of other saints pick their wives based on looks (though sometimes are too drunk to notice in the dark tent that the father-in-law has given them the less pretty girl). Wink Same thing in the Fathers. I'm not advocating the free expression of every urge that comes to mind, just some bending rather than trying to remain rigid and ending up breaking. For the record, my wife and I kissed and maybe even went a bit further, and believe it or not we still entered marriage two 20-something virgins.
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2006, 09:56:32 PM »

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Either that or one or both of the people will get so tired of trying to live like puritans that they'll dump the person and move on.

Such an outcome is probably for the best, for the both of them. Although we are engaged, my fiancee and I have yet to even kiss, as we have mutually agreed to save it until we are officially married; in fact, due to our circumstances (the fact I have yet to graduate from university inter alia), we will not be able to get married till at least another three years. If the fact that I won’t have the chance to kiss her for another three years were a thing that could possibly challenge my commitment to her, then I wouldn’t be engaged to her, nay, I shouldn’t be engaged to her.

Quote
Most people wouldn't be able to handle it however

I fail to see how what most people would or wouldn’t do is relevant to a discussion regarding the morality, appropriateness, and idealness of the very acts in question. Most people in today’s society not only have sex before marriage, but they even have sex before the legal age; would you like to suggest that an Orthodox Christian relax the rules regarding pre-marital sex upon the basis of this observation?

Quote
most people would fail very quickly when trying to begin with such a rigid gameplan

Again, I fail to see the relevance of whether or not most people would achieve this ideal and moral gameplan, to the fact that that it is the ideal and moral gameplan. Most people also fail to perfectly observe the command to love one’s neighbour, but we are nonetheless called upon to follow it, perfectly (Matthew 5:48).

You don’t really have any arguments here; you’re just copping-out and trying to make excuses.

Quote
and what I see is stuff about how we shouldn't lust, and yet Abraham and all sorts of other saints pick their wives based on looks

Do I really need to spell out the distinction between attraction and lust? If physical attraction constitutes a primary criterion for some, then so be it; that is their individual choice relative to their cultural or social context, or simply just a reflection of their own personal attitude irrespective of the cultural or social setting. I think you will be hard-pressed however to not consider the essential relevance of culture and society when it comes to discussing Abraham or certain post-NT Saints.

Furthermore, even assuming Abraham excercised lust in the wife-picking process, I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where we are called upon to follow the Patriarchs or Prophets as if they were perfect moral examples. The sins of the prophets were many. You allude to one of these many sins yourself in the following statement:

Quote
(though sometimes are too drunk to notice in the dark tent that the father-in-law has given them the less pretty girl).


We are only to follow the examples set by prophets insofar as they are commended (directly or indirectly), and not according to those things for which they are rebuked or condemned (directly or indirectly). I find the comments of 19th century Jewish Sage, Rabbi Shimshon Raphael Hirsch, to be quite enlightening on this issue:

"The Torah is not an 'anthology of paragons.'  It relates events not because they are worthy of emulation but simply because they took place.

The Torah does not attempt to hide from us the faults, errors and weaknesses of our great men and precisely thereby it places the stamp of credibility upon the happenings it relates. ÂÂ The fact that we are told about their faults and weaknesses does not detract from our great men; indeed, it adds to their stature and makes their life stories even more instructive. ÂÂ Had they all been portrayed to us as models of perfection, we would have believed that they had been endowed with a higher nature not given to us to attain. ÂÂ Had they been presented to us as free of human passions and inner conflicts, their nature would seem to us merely the result of a loftier predisposition, not a product of their personal merit, and certainly no model we could ever hope to emulate. ÂÂ Take, for instance, the humility of Moses. ÂÂ If we did not know that he was also capable of flying into a rage, this humility would seem to us an inborn trait not within our capacity to emulate. ÂÂ It is precisely his outburst (“Here now, you rebels!” Num. 20:10) that lends to his humility its true greatness, for it shows us his humility as the product of a mighty labor of self-control and self-refinement which we should all emulate because it is within our capacity to do so. ÂÂ Also, the Torah relates no sin or error without telling us also of its consequences, great or small...We must never attempt to whitewash the spiritual and moral heroes of our past. They are not in need of our apologies, nor would they tolerate such attempts on our part."
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2006, 10:09:45 PM »

A lot of girls would consider it weird for a guy to not try to kiss while dating. But then again, many probably think that sexual abstinence is weird too.
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2006, 10:29:34 PM »

Matthew, your arguments never cease to amaze me.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2006, 10:31:40 PM »

Basically, I just said that even though your argument sounds weird and lame, it may be correct and valid.

Peace.
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2006, 10:40:29 PM »

Belief in God sounds weird and lame for many. Unless you think you're too cool for school (in this case, that would be basic Christian morality), then I don't see what problem this poses.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2006, 10:44:42 PM »

Belief in God sounds weird and lame for many. Unless you think you're too cool for school (in this case, that would be basic Christian morality), then I don't see what problem this poses.

I'm just not certain if no kissing before marriage is so 'basic' of Christian morality. It sounds ultra-conservative to me, even if it is the safest option.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 10:52:22 PM »

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It sounds ultra-conservative to me

If that's the case, then i'm curious as to how, according to your standards, you would describe Christ's classification of the engagement in lustful thoughts as adultery?

Quote
even if it is the safest option

"Better to be safe than sorry": far from being a lame cliche, I believe it's a Biblically grounded principle.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 10:54:14 PM »

I'll have to think about that, I really will.

Peace.
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2006, 01:06:01 AM »

Belief in God sounds weird and lame for many. Unless you think you're too cool for school (in this case, that would be basic Christian morality), then I don't see what problem this poses.

That's it exactly. Who really cares if someone claims that following God sounds weird? Some people argue that just having belief in God is weird.

When we look to the Garden of Eden - when they ate of the fruit, there was nothing inherently wrong with the fruit (it wasn't poisonous), therefore the prohibition on eating it wasn't for the physical health of Adam and Eve. The sin was disobedience, and not putting one's trust in God. Same with a lot of moral laws. I might feel desires for certain pleasures, but I am not to be the ultimate judge of what's right and wrong for me; God is.
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2006, 01:09:43 AM »

Honestly, I'm not sure whether there is much more to discuss. Unless you are able to prove that kissing before marriage is wrong, I'm not going to give it up. I am more than happy with giving up sex, especially with all the crazy dangers out there, but not kissing.

Peace.
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2006, 01:16:16 AM »

Matthew777 may I introduce you to Matthew 5:28?
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2006, 01:27:39 AM »

I consider myself quite traditional (and 'o'rthodox) for someone under 20 and I really don't see the problem with a kiss during dating. What exactly do you mean by kissing?

a. A peck on the cheek?
b. A quick kiss on the lips?
c. french kiss?
d. smooching til its like slobering?

If its only a, then, get help. This type of kiss is for your family members, your very close friends, ppl of the same nationality who kiss you twice (or three times if your Lebanese or Russian I think) on each cheek.

I think b is appropriate for people who have been dating for a long time, ie. the engagement period.

Anything beyond that in my world would definitely be reserved for marriage.

To some people, a certain hand hold or 'stance'/action hold can arouse them more than a quick kiss.
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2006, 01:31:28 AM »

c. french kiss?

...and I don't think it should be reserved for marriage.

Peace.
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2006, 01:49:27 AM »

Not kissing because you refrain from pre-marital sex is like starving yourself from food out of fear of overeating.

Actually, I would personally think of it as like fasting before a feast.  Eating eggs is not sinful, but it's recommended not to eat them before Christmas or Easter, etc.

Or as Montalban said, if you're told not to eat from the tree, don't eat it.  St. Paul said "not to touch."  I think this simply means to save affectionate relation until after marriage.  

You're overthinking it my friend.  True devotion is not proven by a kiss.

God bless.

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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2006, 01:53:58 AM »

True devotion is not proven by a kiss.

Do you realize that the average woman would think a man is either asexual or gay for not kissing her? Kissing is often necessary to tell whether you like a person more than you would a friend.

Peace.
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« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2006, 01:56:11 AM »

Do you realize that the average woman would think a man is either asexual or gay for not kissing her? Kissing is often necessary to tell whether you like a person more than you would a friend.

Peace.

I do realize that, and that's because society is ignorant.  This is no excuse for not kissing someone.  Besides, why would you care about society if your own girlfriend should understand?

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2006, 01:58:17 AM »

 Besides, why would you care about society if your own girlfriend should understand?

Like I said, kissing is necessary to tell whether you like someone more than you would a friend. I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Peace.
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« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2006, 01:59:58 AM »

Like I said, kissing is necessary to tell whether you like someone more than you would a friend. I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Peace.

I disagree.  It's not necessary.  If you HAVE to kiss someone to show how much you love them, then you do not understand what love is.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2006, 02:01:15 AM »

I disagree.  It's not necessary.  If you HAVE to kiss someone to show how much you love them, then you do not understand what love is.

No, not just to show how much you love them but to know. Kissing obviously feels different if with someone you honestly have feelings for.

Peace.
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« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2006, 02:03:42 AM »

If you HAVE to kiss someone to show how much you love them, then you do not understand what love is.

Definitely.

There is nothing necessary about kissing your partner before marriage. That has to be the worst argument made so far.
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2006, 02:05:06 AM »

No, not just to show how much you love them but to know.

What a load of BS.
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2006, 02:06:00 AM »

I'd say it's necessary to know whether you like someone as a partner are just as a sister. Kissing is a good way of gauging each other's feelings. Wouldn't you agree that kissing obviously would feel different?
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2006, 02:08:07 AM »

The way to know how much you love someone is not by kissing, but what you do for them, especially ultimate self-sacrifice.

1 Cor. 7 shows that it is GOOD for a man not to touch a woman, and due affection is to be done between husband and wife.

Again, before marriage, it is best that you "fast" from being bodily affection.  It all the more should make the relationship stronger, not weaker.  When you fast from foods, you are making your own spirituality stronger as well.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2006, 02:10:31 AM »

The way to know how much you love someone is not by kissing, but what you do for them, especially ultimate self-sacrifice.

I'm speaking of romantic love. How do you know if you romantically love someone without kissing? Self-sacrifice is not just characteristic of a romantic relationship but platonic friendship also. ÂÂ
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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2006, 02:11:40 AM »

Quote
I don't think I'd date someone for very long who wouldn't ever kiss me.

Hmmm... you've already stated here that you have never dated anyone longer than two weeks.  I don't think you have to worry about long term relationships anytime soon.  

 We're putting you on post moderation for two weeks because of inflammatory comments you've made to M777.  It'll only be 2 wks, however, since your tone HAS gone down as of late.
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« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2006, 02:15:54 AM »

Kissing is a good way of gauging each other's feelings.

Yeah; the type that our basic Christian morality condemns, remember?

Seriously, if you were in front of me, and you tried to tell me that I don't really know if I love my wife-to-be, in spite of the sacrifices made and the risks taken just to get engaged, by virtue of the fact I haven't kissed her on the lips yet, i'd probably be tempted to hit you.

Quote
Wouldn't you agree that kissing obviously would feel different?


I would agree with that; but that's a different thing to saying that you need to kiss them in order to know (which logically implies that you cannot possibly know unless you kiss them). If you want to know what true love is, have a read of 1 Corinthians 13; use that as your guideline and criterion.
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« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2006, 02:22:18 AM »

Just as a side observation, I've seen many conservative protestant and LDS couples date without kissing - so if they can do it (and often with great success!) it isn't impossible.  OTOH human being are human beings.    

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« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2006, 02:27:09 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8541.msg113091#msg113091 date=1143354138]OTOH human being are human beings.[/quote]

True, but the danger lies when one appeals to the weakness of our human nature as an excuse to justify their flawed actions (which is the impression i got from the arguments made by Asteriktos). The weakness of our fallen humanity, is at most, merely an explanation accounting for the occurence of such flawed actions.
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« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2006, 02:35:35 AM »

Do you realize that the average woman would think a man is either asexual or gay for not kissing her? Kissing is often necessary to tell whether you like a person more than you would a friend.

It seems you are arguing for 'right' based on what people think, or perceive.

SO if people might perceive you to be gay you need to show you're not; that you're a real man!
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« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2006, 02:37:14 AM »

I'm speaking of romantic love. How do you know if you romantically love someone without kissing? Self-sacrifice is not just characteristic of a romantic relationship but platonic friendship also. ÂÂ

You mean you can only tell once you've kissed them?

Here's some thoughts on kissing...

"In our days, as in pre-revolutionary times in Russia, this propagation has the definite goal of corrupting contemporary society. This is an old method. History is filled with examples of nations which perished from the spread of depravity; The Lord turned Sodom and Gomorrah. Babylon fell. The Roman Empire perished. The free West could be subjected to this same corruption... What do we see in the life which surrounds us? Indecency and shamelessness in clothing; shameless kissing and embracing on the streets and in public places; shameless advertisements, filthy pornographic literature... All of this dissoluteness and perversion pours into life in an immense wave. Truly, there is no less shamelessness now, if not more, than in pagan times when the Holy Apostles and their successors had to exhort Christians with especial zeal in the observance of modesty."
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/modestyandwill.aspx
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