OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 25, 2014, 12:30:56 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why is a bombed mosque major news, while bombed churches are ignored?  (Read 2976 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« on: March 20, 2006, 03:20:13 PM »

This story is a bit old, but I didn't see it posted earlier.

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/060226

Mary Mostert
February 26, 2006


The front page of my local paper last Thursday was taken up with color pictures and the Los Angeles Time article about the bombing of the Shiite Golden Dome Mosque of Samarra, Iraq and the repercussions of that bombing — presumably by radical Sunni Muslims.

According to the media, this battle between Muslim sects may lead to civil war. I haven't written about it because I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why the bombing of one mosque in Iraq in 2006 is a worldwide news event, but the bombing of more than 150 Serbian Christian Churches and monasteries in Kosovo by Albanian Muslims didn't even make it to the back pages of most American and European newspapers?

FAR more is being reported about the bombing of this one Shiite Mosque in Samarra than has been reported in US and European media about the Albanian Muslim attacks on 150 Serbian Orthodox Christian Churches that have been bombed, or set afire and vandalized in Kosovo?

Kosovo has been under the governmental control of NATO since the 1999 bombing of Kosovo and Belgrade ordered by President Clinton. In 2004, under the watchful eyes of NATO troops, from March 17-20, Albanian Muslims totally destroyed or badly vandalized 30 Christian Churches in Kosovo. Twelve Christian Churches in Prizren, the only ones that had not been destroyed by Albanian Muslims in the previous 4 year of NATO control, were blown up or torn down during those 4 days.

In Samarra, the fire was still smoldering at the Muslim Shiite Mosque when President Bush led the Western nations in condemning the attack on the Shiite Mosque and promised to provide funds to rebuild it. In Kosovo, not only have those Serb Churches, many of which contained historic art, not been rebuilt, the international community seems to be getting ready to reward the Albanians for their vandalism by taking Kosovo away from the Serbs and GIVING it to the Albanians, although most of them are actually from Albania — not Kosovo. Over a million Albanians fled their country when its economy collapsed in the early 1990s.

What will happen to the remaining Serbs in Kosovo if the Albanians who burned down their churches are in control and NATO withdraws? Rev. Archimandrite, a Greek Orthodox priest in Boise, Idaho who is President of the Relief Fund for the Decani Monastery in Kosovo, predicts the following after a visit to Kosovo:

"If Kosovo and Metohija becomes independent and the UN withdraws it's shall then be end of the lives of the Serbian people, as all property including homes, land, and farms, as well as hospitals and schools, all will be lost. Apparently all the blame is put on the Serbians and no one else! Why are the Serbian people all to blame and who told the world that it's the fault of the Serbian people? When shall the hour of truth be revealed? The reality is that Kosovo and Metohija is falling before our eyes and we pay no attention to this fact, but we judge just the Serbians and no one else. Enough! Let the Serbian people be free too! Let the Serbian people live among their brothers! Serbia within the Providence of Kosovo and Methojia desires not to hear the words of Independence.

"When we speak of the losses of Kosovo we must include the Serbian Orthodox monasteries (for both nuns and monks), churches, and cemeteries. Martyrdom is rampart and bodies are not found, as was the situation with the Hieromartyr Hariton the New Martyr of Serbia, who himself was buried in the sacred grounds of Kosovo without his head.

"Everything Serbian will be excluded in this new call for independence. All Serbian language and culture will be extinguished from Kosovo. Already we are finding blacked out signs written in Serbian along the road sides, even those directing the faithful to the Decani Monastery?

"Death will be rampart, the loss of lives will be too high to count and no one will pay attention to this factor in the media. ...This independence is not for the Serbians but for the non-Serbian, Albanian Muslims, intent on taking over the sacred fields as they continue to pressure the free world.

"It is unbelievable to me that so many people talk about how Kosovo and Metohija should live. Even today some think that the best way to accomplish independence for Kosovo and Metohija is simply to banish the Serbian population from the region. To this day it is well known that more than 250,000 Kosovo Serbians have left the region, being forced out by the atrocities perpetrated upon them by the ethnic Albanian populations. Yet even in light of this forced exile so many western politicians and religious leaders lend their groundless opinions and keep offering their ideas, but they never realize that Kosovo and Metohija are simply Serbia!

"Why are we hearing every day that Serbians better leave now or that it's their last hour?

"Why are we hearing every day that even the electricity is shut off, does anyone really realize how freezing it is in Kosovo and Metohija in winter!

"Why is there barbed wire surrounding towns and villages to protect Serbians, because if these barbed wires come down it's the last hour for the Serbians!

"Why have we seen constantly UN Peace Keeping forces in these same said regions, because if they leave at the hour, again it's the last hour for the Serbians!

"Why have soup kitchens been set up in these regions? Because the Serbians cannot go about getting food, because once they go beyond a certain border, rocks and gun fire occurs at the hour, and the lost of lives which no one really hears about in the media.

"Why does no one care or pay attention to the fact that more then 150 Serbian Orthodox Churches and Monasteries have been destroyed, and that one or two are repaired just to make someone look good?

"Why is it that the Serbian population has pre-fabricated homes, while other non-Serbian homes have beautiful three story brick houses!

"Why is it that the Serbian population cannot simply come home, and live in their homes, and on their farms that belonged to them in the first place?

"Why is that so many refuse to hear the truth of the Serbian Orthodox Cemeteries that have been destroyed? Is it because of how truly tearful we would be reeling in shock as the number keeps rising and rising? I saw these graves myself. The number I was quoted by a local Bishop was 126 cemeteries."

..."Is this the type of independent Kosovo that should currently exist?"

Is it, indeed? Why, indeed, have we so shabbily treated our valiant World War II ally, the Serbian people, who saved the lives of more than 500 American pilots who were shot down when Yugoslavia was occupied by the Nazis? Who are we listening to? Could it be we are listening to the wrong people — those who burn down churches and behead Christians?

How can we get so upset over one Shiite Mosque and totally ignore 150 Serbian Christian Churches and monasteries that have been bombed?

For pictures of some of the destroyed churches, which never appeared in the US media, go to http://www.kosovo.com/churchdamaged1.html
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2006, 03:56:47 PM »

Why did noone care when Churches in Nazi Germany were bombed?  Why didn't people raise much moral objection to the fire-bombing of Tokyo?  I think when you can answer those, you'll also be able to answer why when Serb churches are destroyed there is no large outcry.

As to why this particular Mosque is such a big deal - perhaps it has to do with the possibility of it sparking greater fighting in an already very unstable war in which America is at the center (it would make sense for the Western media to cover events dealing with the Western super-power, wouldn't it?).
Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2006, 04:51:19 PM »

Here goes the typical Nektarios response of equating Serbs to Nazi Germans and the Japanese of WWII.

Good job. Roll Eyes
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2006, 05:12:01 PM »

Do you mourn for for Croat and Muslim civillians that died as the result of Chetnik attacks?  

My position on this is far too nuanced to say that I am equating Serbs with Nazis (the two are not compatible either - i.e one would have to compare Serbs to Germans and Nazis to a regime/ political idealogy and military).  But it does actually have an interesting comparison  - most of the Germans living in Dresden had little to no complicity with Nazi crimes, yet the world didn't mourn upon their death.  Likewise I tend to believe that most Serbs are not complicit in war crimes committed by Serb military and paramilitary forces.  The fact remains though that there is little world sympathy for legitimate victims if their regime has committed horrible crimes.  Since there is no massive outpouring of sympathy and support for those hurt by Serbs, why should the world care about Serb victims?  

To save you the time here is SouthSeb99's response:

But all Albanians are Islamic extremists and are ethnically cleansing Serbs out of Kosovo.  

My response:

Trust ye not in the princes and sons of men (or communist nationalists who are manipulating the church to their own political ends), in whom there is no salvation.  
Logged
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2006, 05:19:06 PM »

Quote
Do you mourn for for Croat and Muslim civillians that died as the result of Chetnik attacks?
I mourn for all the innocent lives lost.

Quote
To save you the time here is SouthSeb99's response:
Please don't, I prefer to speak for myself.

Quote
But all Albanians are Islamic extremists and are ethnically cleansing Serbs out of Kosovo.
Although true, I wasn't going to raise it, but since you did, should I remind you about two of my murdered great grandfathers, or would that just be more Serb propoganda?

Since Nektarios responded for me, let me do so for him...

"Well, when I was at Holy Mt. Athos, I saw nothing in the scriptures which obsolved the Serbs from culpability, therefore, they must be guilty." (or it could be a whole host of other Mt. Athos stories).

My response would be...

 Roll Eyes
Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2006, 05:38:18 PM »

Quote
should I remind you about two of my murdered great grandfathers, or would that just be more Serb propoganda?

And your point?  I have a whole slew of family members murdered by Germans and Russians.  Does that mean I think Poland should wage war that would kill thousands of innocent Germans and Russians?  At least Poles aren't so stupid as to embrace thier communist occupiers and think they are protecting the church.  

Logged
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,753



« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2006, 06:42:06 PM »

While I agree that we should mourn and try to get the world to recognize the wrongness of any house  of worship being destroyed, period.  The destruction of this site is the fourth holiest shrine of Shite Islamaist. It would be equivalent of The Church of the Nativity or the Church of the Annunciation in Palestine being destroyed as they would likely be the third and fourth Holiest Sites to Orthodox Christians. The  Church of the Resurrection being equivalent to  Mecca.

This may explain why the outcry was so great.  It is not just Holy to the Iraqis but to the whole Shia sect of Islam.

In Christ,
Thomas
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 09:06:00 PM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2006, 07:22:14 PM »

Repeat after me:

"Its OK to kill Christians
 Its OK to burn and blow up their churches
 But Its not OK to kill Muslims
 And Its not OK to blow up mosques".

Wasnt that easy?  

Isnt this the fifth commandment of the U.N.?
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2006, 07:23:48 PM »

While I agree that we should mourn and try to get the world to recognize the wrongness of any house  of worship being destroyed, period.  The destruction of this site is the fourth holiest shrine of Shite Islamaist. It woyld be equivalent of The Church of the Nativity or the Church of the Annunciation in Palestine being destroyed as they would likely be the third and fourth Holiest Sites to Orthodox Christians. The  Church of the Resurrection being equivalent to  Mecca.

This may expalin why the outcry was so great.  It is not just Holy to the Iraqis but to the hold Shia sect of Islam.

No, I would say that the City of Constantinople and particularly the Great Cathedral Hagia Sophia would be the Holiest Site in Christianity. But it happens to be occupied by the Turks and a Divine Liturgy has not been celebrated there for over 550 years. So why should I, or any Christian, mourn when when one of the 'holy sites' of the conquerors is destroyed? Since #4 has been destroyed I suggest we move on to #'s 3, 2, and 1.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,205


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2006, 09:12:42 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8513.msg112487#msg112487 date=1142890698]
And your point?  I have a whole slew of family members murdered by Germans and Russians.  Does that mean I think Poland should wage war that would kill thousands of innocent Germans and Russians?  At least Poles aren't so stupid as to embrace thier communist occupiers and think they are protecting the church. ÂÂ
[/quote]

How distanced are these relatives?  Have you seen them die in front of you?  Our relatives are dying in front of our eyes, in our time, and you're trying to logically disuade people from having passion about the subject?  I'm sorry my friend, but you're talking to the wrong group of people.  
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,753



« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2006, 09:53:25 PM »

GIC,

Without starting an arguement, the priority of Sacred Christian Shrines usually start with the Sites  attached with the Life of Christ and are only then followed by the physical sites of the Church such as Hagia Sophia and Constantinople. I am sure that most in the Old Roman (Byzantium) Empire would have agreed to this in view of the special effort to build the Shrine Churches and gain control of the sacred sites of Christ in the Holyland. The Loss of Constantinople, Hagia Sophia, and simarly the local Churches and Holy sites in Orthodox Jurisdictions is always regretable and should indeed be protested and brought to world attention. However the loss of the Primary Sacred Shrines and Pilgrimage sites of the Orthodox Christian in the Holyland  would be a graver loss and in reality are currently more threatened as their access is already being limited by both the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority alike.

PS> I have done my part for the restoration of Hagia Sophia by signing the petition and writing to my Congressional  Delegation. However as one of the  delegation posed this question---What churches are the Greek Orthodox in Constantinople going to give up as the entire population of Orthodox Christians would fill Hagia Sophia and leave the other churches empty?

To Serb:

I am doing my part sending e-mails and letters to my congressional delgates protesting the prejudicial handling of Servia and Kosovo by the US Goverment and their KFOR allies. ÂÂ The loss of the sacred sites there are a direct result of their failure to protect the sacred sites and  Churches/onasteries as well as the need to grant full accessibility to the Orthodox Christians there.


In Christ,
Thomas
« Last Edit: March 20, 2006, 10:34:52 PM by Thomas » Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2006, 10:52:29 PM »

GIC,

Without starting an arguement, ...

Too late. You already directed the question to him!  Cheesy
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2006, 11:06:43 PM »

Without starting an arguement, the priority of Sacred Christian Shrines usually start with the Sites  attached with the Life of Christ and are only then followed by the physical sites of the Church such as Hagia Sophia and Constantinople. I am sure that most in the Old Roman (Byzantium) Empire would have agreed to this in view of the special effort to build the Shrine Churches and gain control of the sacred sites of Christ in the Holyland. The Loss of Constantinople, Hagia Sophia, and simarly the local Churches and Holy sites in Orthodox Jurisdictions is always regretable and should indeed be protested and brought to world attention. However the loss of the Primary Sacred Shrines and Pilgrimage sites of the Orthodox Christian in the Holyland  would be a graver loss and in reality are currently more threatened as their access is already being limited by both the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority alike.

I think it depends alot on the Era, in the fourth and fifth centuries, you'd be correct Jeursalem would have been held in higher esteem as a site of religious significance...but in the fourteenth or fifteenth centuries? I'm not so sure, from what I have read from that era (which admittedly isn't too much, as most of what we have is in Patristic Greek...and the rest is in french, which I can read better than patristic Greek, but not much) I would tend to think that Constantinople and Her Holy Sites were held in the Highest of Regard...especially Hagia Sophia.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2006, 12:07:26 AM »

re: Ranking Christian holy sites

Maybe its the closet ecumenist in me, but I see Jerusalem having more universal importance in Christendom.  Constantinople is important in a more specific sense to people of the Byzantine rite in a similar way that Rome is held in higher esteem by Catholics.  Whereas Jerusalem is place of pilgrimage for Orthodox, Catholics and even protestants.  

Quote
How distanced are these relatives?

Closer than the ones mentioned by SouthSerb99.

Quote
Our relatives are dying in front of our eyes, in our time, and you're trying to logically disuade people from having passion about the subject?  I'm sorry my friend, but you're talking to the wrong group of people.  

Where does it end?  If you are justified in impassioned belief (and by extension a form a hyper-nationalism) isn't a Bosnian Muslim who had relatives murdered at Srebrenica also justified in being passionate and vile towards Serbs?  Or what of a Croat whose ancestors were murdered by ÄŒetniks? If people in other parts of the world can reach a relative state of peace with their neighbors, I'd think that even inhabitants of the former Yugoslavia could as well - probably not in this generation, but it's worth hoping that - If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be always children of God and love one another. We should remember the words of St. Paul: "If it be possible, as much as lies in you, live peaceably with all men - and I know you know the source of that quote.  
Logged
AncientFaith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 85


« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2006, 12:27:45 AM »

I have to confess that I haven't followed the events in Serbia in the past few years (I used to visit the cybermonk's site many years ago when I was first introduced to Orthodoxy).  Perhaps one of the knowledgeable folk could propose this as a story idea:

STORY SUGGESTIONS
        Dateline NBC
        30 Rockefeller Plaza
        New York, NY 10112

They might ignore it, but a well written idea might just make it on air.
Logged

---
Patrick
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,205


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2006, 12:33:21 AM »

You know you're right on a lot of levels.  I think you should know where i'm comming from though.  I have had personal experience with issues pertaining to what we are talking about.  i'd really rather no go into the details.  This is where some of the emotion comes from so please forgive my shortness, i've just seen too much to let some things slide.

I would also like to let you know that I went through a grueling many year personal pilgrimage, on my own, in order to find peace with myself and the situations with Serbia in the last 10 years.  Needless to say, where i've arived isn't perfect, but I DEFINATELY am more willing to see things objectively instead of pulling out a knife with no questions attatched. ÂÂ

My point is, I am MORE THAN WILLING to say that BOTH sides made mistakes, both sides killed, etc.  I'm not trying to take the blame off of Serbs.  I know and saw what my people did, so you don't have to prove anything there. ÂÂ

My problem is that you seemingly brush off any emotionally charged yet important questions by logic and coldness that can only give you one side of the story.  I'm sure you have your end of the story to give, but this is what i'm seeing.  I'm deeply sorry if I characterized you incorrectly or for that matter, for characterizing you at all.  I would be remiss, however, if I did not speak my mind on this subject and your (or my perception) handling of it. ÂÂ
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,477


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2006, 01:45:14 PM »

Repeat after me:

"Its OK to kill Christians
 Its OK to burn and blow up their churches
 But Its not OK to kill Muslims
 And Its not OK to blow up mosques".

Wasnt that easy?  

Isnt this the fifth commandment of the U.N.?

Whereas I don't like the emotional style of the above quote, I do agree to a large extent with the quote's substance.  The Western culture that determines to our media what's newsworthy has become very anti-Christian.  As a general rule, our people consider religion and spirituality to be very important and view all religions (including Islam, even in spite of its exclusivity of other religions) to be of equal value.  So of course people of our culture are going to deem the bombing of a Muslim mosque very newsworthy.

However, most Westerners don't afford this same respect to Christianity.  In the minds of the majority of Westerners, Christianity is a "religion" to be scorned.  So who cares if hundreds of churches are destroyed?

Does anyone remember how President Clinton refused to bomb a Muslim country during their month of Ramadan yet had no problem starting a bombing campaign against Serbia during Orthodox Holy Week, the holiest of holy days for Serbia's Orthodox majority (not to mention the entire Orthodox world)?
Logged
PhosZoe
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 346

One foot in the cradle


« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2006, 03:03:29 PM »

Because brown people are way more interesting and exotic than white people.  Roll Eyes

Big media tends to lump all Christians into two baskets Roman Catholic and Protestant. Why is this? The fact of the matter is that BOTH have PR reps who are not afraid to use media (TV, magazines, internet, blogs etc etc. ) to express a particular view. Both groups also have their OWN television stations that are in direct and indirect competition with secular media.

Sarcasm aside, if it is considered to be "newsworthy" or generate more viewers by tugging at the most heartstrings  therefore it is major news. A team of journalists wants to show a particular "angle" or side of a story, they sit down with their editors to discuss the angle they go out get some quotes and call it a story. I'm willing to bet that the biggest topic prior to airing or publishing is going to be whether or not this story will generate readership, viewers or awards.

Plain and simple, the media does not care about anything but the end result.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 03:18:20 PM by PhosZoe » Logged
AncientFaith
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 85


« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2006, 05:26:37 PM »

Whereas I don't like the emotional style of the above quote, I do agree to a large extent with the quote's substance.  The Western culture that determines to our media what's newsworthy has become very anti-Christian.  As a general rule, our people consider religion and spirituality to be very important and view all religions (including Islam, even in spite of its exclusivity of other religions) to be of equal value.  So of course people of our culture are going to deem the bombing of a Muslim mosque very newsworthy.

However, most Westerners don't afford this same respect to Christianity.  In the minds of the majority of Westerners, Christianity is a "religion" to be scorned.  So who cares if hundreds of churches are destroyed?

Does anyone remember how President Clinton refused to bomb a Muslim country during their month of Ramadan yet had no problem starting a bombing campaign against Serbia during Orthodox Holy Week, the holiest of holy days for Serbia's Orthodox majority (not to mention the entire Orthodox world)?

I suspect the problem lies in that the press, and the politicians, style themselves Christian, when in fact they are, in most cases, barely observant protestants or rebellious catholics.  Since, in this case, Holy Week is hardly important to most protestants - and Easter is sort of (but not nearly as important as Christmas to the average secular Christian), he figures it can't be that important to the rest of the Christian world.  IOW, since I'm a Christian and X isn't important to me, it shouldn't be to other Christians - or, since I'm a Christian and I believe X, then all other Christians should accept this point of view.
Logged

---
Patrick
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2006, 08:19:30 PM »

I think I have learned, since converting to Orthodoxy and becoming a member of an OCA parish with a mix of people of various eastern european descent (carpatho-russians, ukranians, slovakians, bulgarians and serbians; the plaque on the building says " Russian Orthodox" but most are not of russian descent) that generally, the west takes eastern europe and its people for granted.

Here in Pittsburgh, they were just considered "mill hunkies" by the western european majority and were somewhat marginalized.

I think that attitude prevails in the so-called multi-cultural, politically correct, media. They are not self-critical enough ( and probably just too freaking arrogant) to recognize their inherent "of western european descent" sense of self-superiority.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 08:20:41 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2006, 08:27:28 PM »

I think I have learned, since converting to Orthodoxy and becoming a member of an OCA parish with a mix of people of various eastern european descent (carpatho-russians, ukranians, slovakians, bulgarians and serbians; the plaque on the building says " Russian Orthodox" but most are not of russian descent) that generally, the west takes eastern europe and its people for granted.

Here in Pittsburgh, they were just considered "mill hunkies" by the western european majority and were somewhat marginalized.

I think that attitude prevails in the so-called multi-cultural, politically correct, media. They are not self-critical enough ( and probably just too freaking arrogant) to recognize their inherent "of western european descent" sense of self-superiority.

You should push your parish to remove "Russian" from the sign name, as it hinders unity.
Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2006, 08:32:31 PM »

it is some sort of historical society sign

the building has been designated a historical site

trust me, I am one of the most vociferous advocates of ONE Orthodox Church in the USA -- so much so that I am giving serious consideration to, as a mild form of protest agains the current situation, dropping the term " jurisdiction" from my voacbulary and inserting the term "denomination" as in "to which Orthodox denomination do you belong?"
Logged
PhosZoe
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 346

One foot in the cradle


« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2006, 10:23:04 AM »

I think I have learned, since converting to Orthodoxy and becoming a member of an OCA parish with a mix of people of various eastern european descent (carpatho-russians, ukranians, slovakians, bulgarians and serbians; the plaque on the building says " Russian Orthodox" but most are not of russian descent) that generally, the west takes eastern europe and its people for granted.

Here in Pittsburgh, they were just considered "mill hunkies" by the western european majority and were somewhat marginalized.

I think that attitude prevails in the so-called multi-cultural, politically correct, media. They are not self-critical enough ( and probably just too freaking arrogant) to recognize their inherent "of western european descent" sense of self-superiority.



I am from NW Indiana which is culturally very similiar to Pittsburgh. Eastern Europeans of the early-mid 20th century are the Mexicans of today. While I agree that the West takes the East for granted, I'm not exactly sure I would call it superiority but ignorance. More like " They sort of look like us, therefore they must be exactly like us". Speaking as someone of Serbian descent, I know that this is completely untrue.
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,477


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2006, 01:13:12 PM »

Does anyone remember how President Clinton refused to bomb a Muslim country during their month of Ramadan yet had no problem starting a bombing campaign against Serbia during Orthodox Holy Week, the holiest of holy days for Serbia's Orthodox majority (not to mention the entire Orthodox world)?

Adding to my own post:  I should mention that even the Bishop of Rome, Pope John Paul II, urged the President to NOT bomb Serbia during the Orthodox Holy Week.
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,205


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2006, 02:41:34 PM »



 More like " They sort of look like us, therefore they must be exactly like us". Speaking as someone of Serbian descent, I know that this is completely untrue.

I'm sorry what does that mean?  Can you explain the sentence in quotes, i'm not quite getting it.  Thanks!   Cheesy
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
PhosZoe
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 346

One foot in the cradle


« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2006, 03:44:49 PM »

I'm sorry what does that mean?  Can you explain the sentence in quotes, i'm not quite getting it.  Thanks!   Cheesy

Meaning Serbs are white, therefore they must be just like the Germans, French or English?
Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,205


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2006, 05:10:32 PM »

Thanks!  That makes a lot more sense now.  I also totally agree with you!  Ignorance seems to be something that is very decisevely done in America.  People chose what they will ignore and what they won't ignore.  I don't think people in Eastern Europe are that judicious about it.  But I could see examples of where I might be wrong...
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
SouthSerb99
Archbishop of Shlivo, Patriarch of All Vodkas & Defender Against All Overstepping!
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 2,800


Now Internet Forum Friendly


WWW
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2006, 05:34:34 PM »

How to Survive 600 Years of Terrorism and 60 Years of Communism
By: Mary Mostert, Analyst, Banner of Liberty http://www.bannerofliberty.com/BOL-06MQC/3-20-2006.1.html

March 20, 2006

For the past 10 years I have been writing, off and on, about the disintegration of Yugoslavia and that has led to me having a large and growing number of Serb readers. I got interested in the Serb part of the story because I noticed, during the Bosnian war, that CNN never, NOT ONCE, ever had a Serb spokesman on any news program. That struck me as rather odd, since it was the Serbs who were our ONLY allies in the Balkans during World War 1, when approximately half the Serbian male population was killed, and World War II, when, according to the Holocaust Museum, over a million Serbs, Jews and Roma (gypsies) were slaughtered in Croatian concentration camps, such as Jasenovac.

The cruelty of the Ustashe guards horrified even the Germans, who used the more humane killing method of poison gas than was used on the Serbs. After the war German domination was merely traded for Soviet domination. This happened largely because a British double agent fed lies about who was REALLY on the Allied side to Winston Churchill. At Yalta Churchill insisted on the Allies supporting Josip Broz Tito, a communist, in spite of eye-witness accounts by hundreds of American Air Force pilots and crewmen who knew which group was really supporting the Americans and British. When shot down over Yugoslavia during WWII, over 500 American airmen were saved by the Serbs under General Mihailovich.

Muslims ruled the area for more than 600 years under the Ottoman Turkish Empire, while often trying to force the Serbian Orthodox population to convert to Islam. The rulers of the Austrian Empire often tried to force the Serbs to recognize the Pope. Yet, most of the Serbs maintained their loyalty to the Serbian Orthodox Church throughout hundreds of years of persecution, without trying to force others into their religion when they came to power.

In 1996, the latest chapter in the misinformation about Serbs was being written when President Bill Clinton, OK'ed Terrorist Financed Weapons to Bosnia Muslims. Our media was bombarding us with stories about how the Serbs were killing Albanians – but never told the Americans that the Kosovo Liberation Army, (KLA) until 1998 when Clinton took it off, was on the U.S. State Department list of the major terrorist organizations in the world.

By 1999, the KLA, which was trained and armed by Iran and Osama bin Laden was the source of the stories that Milosevic, and the Serbs, were committing genocide. Also the Albanian lobby in Washington, which appears to have been financed largely by the drug trade in Kosovo and some wealthy Albanian-Americans, was circulating false stories to the media about the “Serbs killing 100,000” Albanians in Kosovo. Based on those reports, American airplanes bombed Belgrade and Kosovo for 78 days.

After the bombing, scores of forensic experts were sent to Kosovo to unearth mass graves containing the bodies of those 100,000 to 200,000 Albanians were buried in. No mass graves were found. The leader of the Spanish forensic team reported after a thorough investigation: "I calculate that the final figure of dead in Kosovo will be 2,500 at the most, including lots of strange deaths that can't be blamed on anyone."

Yet, with the death of Slobodan Milosevic we still are getting cartoons and stories about the “200,000 people” that Milosevic supposedly killed. Only - no one could find the bodies. On the other hand, in Iraq, where the media never even TALKED about genocide, so far 300,000 bodies HAVE been found in mass graves. Meanwhile the media tells us Saddam Hussein wasn't all that bad because he didn’t have “weapons of mass destruction” and the Democrats want to impeach President Bush because there was no reason to invade Iraq. It was a good thing that we bombed Belgrade for 78 days over 2500 deaths but 300,000 bodies in mass graves in Iraq is no big deal?

In ten years of communicating with Serbs from all over the world, I have often tried to get them to give me more background to try to figure out how they have managed to hold fast to their faith during 600 years of Muslim persecution, the Holocaust and 60 years of Communism. Most of them seem puzzled by my questions. But, from their answers it appears that their faith in both their God and their nation has been nurtured and has survived within their strong family units, in SPITE of what was happening in their country. Except for a brief period of time between the fall of Turkish domination and the rise of communism, they have never lived in a nation that had freedom of religion. Yet, their churches and their faith have survived.

Finally, this week, following the death of their last communist president, Slobodan Milosevic, one of my readers, Alex, who lives in Belgrade, wrote a succinct history of Serb experience in living with terrorism for hundreds of years. In this time of rising worldwide terrorism, this is a story the American people need to hear. Neither Alex or any of the other Serbs I've communicated with in the past 10 years EVER seemed to cast themselves in the role of "victim" which has become so common among minorities and special interest groups in the USA and among Bosnian Muslims and Albanians who have e-mailed me. Yet, no group of Americans or the Albanians and Bosnian Muslims who claim to be "victims" of persecution EVER had to face the kind of persecution the Serbs have experienced, from both radical Muslims and radical Christians, and even from America when we destroyed most of the infrastructure of their country based on misinformation and outright lies. Would we be so calm about it if we lost OUR freedom of religion? Alex wrote:

“Serbs have had plenty of experience in dealing with radical Islam, what Americans now call Islamic Terror. Americans tragically lost some 3,000 lives and several buildings on Sept. 11, and promptly wanted to turn the world upside down and intervene in other countries, in pursuit of justice.

“Yet, the Serbs - who have suffered a million times more, for centuries, have not been allowed to fight the same type of terror in their own country.

“For almost 500 years the Turks had beheaded our best men, raped our prettiest women, taken our male babies and young boys and raised them as Turks - these were the yanissaries, they were even more brutal than the ordinary Turks; taken our girls to the sultan's harem, taken our lands, our harvest, our livestock, our food, burned our churches and turned them into mosques or horse stables, placed our men on sticks so that they die a suffering death...

“To give you an idea of how horrific the Turks were, here is a photo of the Cele-kula located in the southern Serbian city of Nis - Serbia's second biggest city after Belgrade. The Turks had beheaded (decapitated) our men after a battle in 1809, and had made a tower out of 952 of their skulls, as a warning to the Serbs to end their rebellion. Some of the sculls had fallen out over time, but some still remain, to date. This is now a historic, cultural and sacred monument protected by the state, but also a brutal reminder of what Serbia had gone through.

“And, instead of America understanding us and supporting us, what does it do? It punishes us in every way possible and then rewards our enemies - Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo, who have ties with the very Al Qaeda the Americans are fighting. Isn't that a bit strange? Yes, very.

”Unfortunately, our Catholic and other Christian neighbors did things just as bad as the Islamists. The Croats had performed genocide of Serbs during WW 1, WW 2 (especially WW 2, for example, the death camp at Jasenovac) and again in the 1990s (for example: Operation Storm). Hitler had no better ally, than the Croatian Ustashi. The Hungarians killed us, tortured us, hanged us and mutulated us (in Macva) and placed our people under a freezing river (in the city of Novi Sad, 1942). The Germans had put us in forced labor camps, prisons, death camps, and in front of firing squads (one example: in the city of Kragujevac as many as 7,000 residents were shot in a single day).

“We also suffered greatly under the atheists - communists. It's no secret that Soviet troops had raped many women when they and Tito's partisans liberated Serbia in 1945, only to introduce us to communist terror in which the highest price was paid by Serbs.

“Serbia has had the misfortune to be placed right at the place where Europe meets the Middle East, where two Christian religions clash (Roman Catholic and Orthodox) and where Christianity in general and Islam clash. And we have survived it all, including the betrayal and attacks by what were supposed to be our historical allies.”

Distribute this among your friends and neighbors and especially to your members of Congress. It is time that we begin to learn some of the history of past terrorism experienced by other people and other places. The Serbs have survived – but their numbers have been cut dramatically by hundreds of years of terrorism. When you read media stories about Kosovo being given to the Albanians who lied to America about a "genocide" - think about what that would really mean. Do we really want to strip Kosovo, the Serb Jerusalem, from the Serbs and give it to a group of people who have poured into Kosovo, from across the border, and used terrorism to kill or drive out its Serb population over the past 60 years? That seems to be about where the Kosovo talks are headed.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2006, 05:35:19 PM by SouthSerb99 » Logged

"Wherever you go, there you are."
 Guy from my office

Orthodox Archbishopric of Ohrid
Hungry? Click Here
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2006, 12:31:02 AM »

thanks Southserb
I went to that web site and there are lots of interesting articles there

who the western media decides will be the "good guys" and who will be the "bad guys" is a mystery. It seems almost like they sit down and say, this is how we tell the "story" of this conflict. These will be the good guys and those the bad guys; it seems arbitrary and to have been done by "central casting"

another group who, although not made out to be bad guys, but rather are completely ignored and forgotten are Palestinian Christians. They suffer as much as muslim Palestinians, but they aren't fighting a hoy war against Israel, nor are they suicide bombers. In fact they suffer more because they are a religious minority among the muslims in their own territories. Oh, but that's right, we don't consider the sufferings of Christians in the western media. Chalk another one up for the "lions" I guess.
Logged
DavidH
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 531



WWW
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2006, 01:15:12 AM »

I believe many politically incorrect things about Islam which I am fully convinced are backed up by objective history. AND I also believe that in many ways the current "War on Terror" is an encore performance of the militant  expansion exhibited in much of Islam's history (until their cultures stagnated technologically and the West surpassed them, putting a practical stop on their jihad. Yet, when I had heard of the Sunni attack on the Shiite mosque, my first thought was, "Oh no! What a loss! How can anyone destroy something that can never be replaced like that!" Of course, I had the same feeling when the Taliban destroyed the ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan..........perhaps I am far from the piety recommended in the Old Testament where the kings who destroyed the Asherah poles were praised and love too much history/ archaeology- but at that time these were still temptations towards still living religions and not yet historical treasures...............
   Still, I wonder how many Muslims are sad at the loss of centuries-old churches in the same way I was sad at the loss of a centuries-old mosque?.........
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2006, 01:28:48 AM »

Quote
Oh, but that's right, we don't consider the sufferings of Christians in the western media

Another minorty Christian group ignored in all the turmoil of war are Christian Albanians...
Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2006, 09:24:31 AM »

" Still, I wonder how many Muslims are sad at the loss of centuries-old churches in the same way I was sad at the loss of a centuries-old mosque?........."

I think there are many radical secularists AND muslims that wouldn't lose a second's sleep over the destruction and loss of many many historic churches, cathedrals and Christian shrines. The secularists might pause for a moment over the loss of some historic architecture or art, but then would quickly get over it as part of the necessary collateral damage needed in expunging Christianity from the collective mnidset.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.143 seconds with 58 queries.