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Psalti Boy
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« on: March 20, 2006, 01:28:32 AM »

Has anyone heard of the Matthewites?  I stumbled on their website, http://orthodox-christianity.net/.
I never heard of them and was wondering who they are.  We really need to get to work on uniting all the Orthodox in America.
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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2006, 01:39:02 AM »

As a rule of thumb, whenever someone uses the words 'Genuine' or 'True' in the official name of their Church...RUN!!!
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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2006, 01:55:48 AM »

As a rule of thumb, whenever someone uses the words 'Genuine' or 'True' in the official name of their Church...RUN!!!

I prefere 'ignore', but yes, that is the prudent answer.

I remember seeing a list on some website of pretty much all vagante/pseudo/schismatic/etc. "Orthodox" groups out there and they all had pretentious sounding or really long names.  Would be humorous if it wasn't so sad.
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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2006, 02:00:41 AM »

the group 's name made me think of Emily Latella on old SNL episodes
"We really have to do something about an Orthodox group that calls itself the Mathey Whites.Are they some kind of white supremicist Orthodox group? And who is Mathey? I've heard of Matthew, but not Mathey"

Anchor interrupts: "Emily, that's Matthew- ITES, not Mathey- whites. It's Mattew-ites!"

Emily: "Oh, never mind"
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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2006, 02:13:08 AM »

So does that mean that anyone can proclaim him/herself Archbishop and start their own Orthodox church?
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2006, 02:20:14 AM »

Psalti
I don't think anyone really wants to admit to the D-word.

As much as we proclaim One Church, there are a bunch of Denominations within Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2006, 02:26:39 AM »

Psalti
I don't think anyone really wants to admit to the D-word.

As much as we proclaim One Church, there are a bunch of Denominations within Orthodoxy.

Yeah I know.  

I guess I should start working on building my self-proclaimed Metropolis of Lactaid and see if I can get a following.  I recently found an old church for sale upstate . . . hhmmm.
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2006, 03:11:45 AM »

Yeah I`ve heard of Mattewites.
 They are spoiled, middle class, self loathing Caucasians and Matthew 777 is their Patriarch !!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2006, 03:40:06 AM »

Yeah I`ve heard of Mattewites.
 They are spoiled, middle class, self loathing Caucasians and Matthew 777 is their Patriarch !!!!!!!!!!


Wait a monent. I may be self-loathing, if only for my sinful nature, but I am not spoiled!  Cool
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2006, 04:42:19 AM »

As much as we proclaim One Church, there are a bunch of Denominations within Orthodoxy.

I would say, rather, there are a bunch of denominations which claim to be within Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2006, 08:59:43 AM »

Say what you want, but if you are a Presbyterian or a Baptist or a Methodist and you see Greek Orthodox (of several varieties), Russian Orthodox (of several varieties), Serbian Orthodox, Albanian Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, these all APPEAR to be different denominations.

And, sorry to say, FUNCTIONALLY, they ARE.
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2006, 09:06:51 AM »

the Catholic writer, Scott Hahn, who I went to theological school with when we were both earnest Calvinists, when he was moving away from that, he initially looked into Orthodoxy and was attracted to the worship.

But, to him, at that point in his journey, he viewed the various Orthodox jurisdictions as "warring brothers" who were divided because they hadn't been brought together under one "holy father." So he ultimately became a Latin.(I am not endorsing his view, just roughly quoting what he wrote in his book about his conversion).

So, the various Orthodox denominations maybe cost us the loss of one of the better theological thinkers and communicators of this generation.

 
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2006, 09:08:42 AM »

LOL to replies # 7 and 8! Grin
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2006, 09:22:56 AM »

Quote
Has anyone heard of the Matthewites?  I stumbled on their website, http://orthodox-christianity.net/. I never heard of them and was wondering who they are.

The Matthewites were started by, odd as it may seem, a Greek guy named Matthew. He was a monk from Athos, and like most monks on Athos he wasn't taking the calendar change very well. He eventually decided to break off from the state Church, which he deemed schismatic, and without sacramental grace. He was a properly consecrated bishop, though his later actions perhaps led him into schism; the Matthewites are probably the most aloof of the Orthodox Greek Old Calendarists, at least in their ecclesiological stances and rhetoric.  However, (to make a very long story short) he found himself the lone bishop of his group, which was not as small as some of his detractors might hope or think that it was. Since two or three bishops are needed to consecrate new bishops, he obviously had a big problem. He decided that the rest of Orthodoxy was schismatic, and thus he was forced to bend the rules and consecrate new bishops alone. While it is indeed within the scope of the powers of a bishop to bend the rules in such a way (ie. a bishop decides how and when canons will be applied), such bending also invites other Orthodox bishops to weigh in and say whether the bending of the rules was justified. A bishop can bend the rules (economia), but he can't out and out break them. Just about everyone in Orthodoxy thought that Matthew had broken the rules; obviously the Matthewites did not.

In the mid-70's, the Matthewites opened up communications with ROCOR, and there was almost communion. Both sides understood what was happening in a different way, however. The Matthewites, being decieved by the most extreme members of ROCOR, thought that ROCOR believed as they did: that the rest of Orthodoxy was without grace, that the calendar change was a schismatic act, etc.. ROCOR on the other hand apparently looked on the Matthewites in much the same way that they looked on the followers of Met. Chrysostom of Florina, another Greek Old Calendarist group which ROCOR had recently helped out and entered into communion with. When the Matthewites and ROCOR met, a laying on of hands was performed, and this also is of disputed meaning. ROCOR says that it was to make proper (ie. to fix) the uncanonical consecrations of Bp. Matthew. The Matthewites never (officially) admitted that their consecrations needed fixing, however, so they obviously did not find this idea very agreeable. In any event, within a few years both Greek Old Calendarist groups had broken off communion with ROCOR anyway.

Quote
We really need to get to work on uniting all the Orthodox in America.

I'm afraid the uncanonical situation is a world-wide issue, and really a historical issue. Even in the Bible there is talk about divisions, divisions, divisions.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2006, 09:32:13 AM »

The Matthewites are an Old Calendarist Synod, which puts them in a different category from "vaganteism."  Occasionally on the internet one hears the idea expressed that vagantes and Old Calendarists are the same but in reality this is not true.  Compare www.ind-movement.org and a good exposition of the Old Calendarist movement and one will immediately see the differences.  A few brief points of note would be as poster Serge has often noted, vagantes do not usualy have multi-generational members and real churches as a starter.  Vagantes often blend Anglo Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Catholicism.  Vagantes often ordain women and have no theological rigidity. Old Calendarists on the other hand have real Churches, real clergy, multi-generational members, real monasteries, a theology based in Orthodoxy not in amalgamations, etc.  The aim of Old Calendarism is to preserve the Orthodox faith in the sight of ecumenism, modernism, etc.  Vaganteism has no unified aim.

Now to the specifics.  All Old Calendarist groups use the title, "Gnissios" or true in their title because they wished to distinguish themselves from the people who were using the police to beat them, torch their churches, shave their priests and disrobe them, etc. all because they refused to stop using the patristic calendar and submit to the theological innovations of Patriarch Meletios and company.  Some posters here will inevitably disagree as to whether these were real issues, big enough issues to separate over, etc.  It is not my intent to debate these issues as I already have many times.  But instead I simply wish to underscore what provoked these people to begin to use the term Gnissios as a distinguishing term.

The Matthewites' position within Old Calendarism is at the extreme end.  They have a light switch view of ecclesiology: 1924, Calendar Change, New Calendarists have no grace.  Other Old Calendarists have a much more moderate and nuanced view of the situation.  Matthewites will argue they are the only consistent ones but so be it; I'd rather be inconsistent and allow for the obvious fact that there have been holy people in the New Calendar Church post 1924!

The Matthewites are not very large, and in the opinion of many in my Synod (Archbishop Chrysostomos II) they are fanatical and have caused us undue problems.  Their break from us (they of course argue the reverse) is what precipitated the divisions in the Old Calendar Church which have made us so unappealing to others and have basically caused us to become stagnant.

Thankfully, instead of trying to woo the Matthewites back to us as we did in the past, we are now more interested in trying to dialogue with the State Church of Greece and effect an end to the Calendar and ecumenism schism rather than becoming ever more insular and parochial.  Make no mistake about it--I would not be part of an Old Calendarist synod if I did not believe them to be absolutely right on the doctrinal points--but I believe that the Matthewites and other elements of the Old Calendar movement have done us more harm than good and I am quite willing to be self-critical.

As a down-to-earth example: many New Calendarists see people in the WCC and think "why do they have to do that?!"  Many of us Old Calendarists see Matthewites saying all sorts of unseasoned things and think "Why do they have to do that!?"

Anastasios
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2006, 09:41:28 AM »

He was a properly consecrated bishop,

So, was he consecrated by 3 bishops?   Or did he consecrate himself?
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2006, 09:45:59 AM »

He was consecrated in the typical Orthodox fashion. However, a proper consecration is not all that goes into being a proper Orthodox bishop. And neither is an invalid consecration a guarantee that you are not Orthodox.
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2006, 10:59:35 AM »

Anastasios said: "The Matthewites are not very large."

Actually, they have 7 priests in the U.S., and I believe one or two more are coming over very soon, so they will have 8-9.  They are growing rapidly in the U.S. (no clue about in Greece, but I would guess the second-largest of the OC's in Greece, as they have been around for a long time).  Talks of ordaining a bishop for the U.S. have happened too (although to no fruit yet, but in time, with the rapid growth that I at least am told of, a bishop probably being ordained isn't too far off). ÂÂ

But yes, compared to GOC-Chrysostom II, the Matthewites are small, you are right Wink, but they are growing.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2006, 11:11:50 AM »

To be 100% fair (I don't want to get into any arguments, but I do want to make some clarifications), +Matthew did consider Germanos of Cyclades Orthodox, but he was in prison at the time (kinda hard to do ordinations when you are in jail, when the State Church is persecuting you Wink).  

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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2006, 11:13:47 AM »

That is no excuse to ordain.  There was no need for more bishops at that time.  Germanos was out of prison rather soon thereafter anyway.

Anastasios
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2006, 11:24:13 AM »

Oh well, whatever the history is, how is Metr. PAVLOS doing?  I saw him in your avatar, and have been curious.
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2006, 11:42:37 AM »

The Matthewite situation troubles me.  For instance, I have a very high regard for Fr Anthony Gavalas. Save for the priests at St Markella's and the monks at our monastery, I have not met anyone more "legit" than Fr Anthony.  That he is a Matthewite troubles me. That I am a "Chrysostomite" probably troubles him. Schisms are so evil!

Met Pavlos is slowly waking up from sedation and it is unclear when he will be "awake." But he is breathing on his own and out of immediate danger. Thank you for asking!

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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2006, 11:45:03 AM »

The Matthewite situation troubles me.  For instance, I have a very high regard for Fr Anthony Gavalas. Save for the priests at St Markella's and the monks at our monastery, I have not met anyone more "legit" than Fr Anthony.  That he is a Matthewite troubles me. That I am a "Chrysostomite" probably troubles him. Schisms are so evil!

Met Pavlos is slowly waking up from sedation and it is unclear when he will be "awake." But he is breathing on his own and out of immediate danger. Thank you for asking!

Anastasios

Yes, I have talked with Fr. Anthony too, he seems to be a wonderful priest, very spiritual and loving. ÂÂ

Oh, I'm sorry to hear he hasn't fully recovered yet.  Hopefully he will recovery quickly!  How old is he anyways?  I thought I heard he was only in his 50's (too young to have stuff like this happen to him).

P.S. Is Bp. Christodoulos acting bishop for now? (EDIT, I should maybe say, acting Metropolitan)
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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2006, 11:50:50 AM »

He will take months to recover--the stroke was so massive.  He is 50 going on 51.  The reason that he had this happen so early is that he has very bad diabetes and due to the difficulties of being a bishop and travelling all the time was unable to keep the weight down consistently (he kept the monastic fast all the time but breads and pastas can get to you after awhile with all those carbs).

Bp Christodoulos is currently overseeing things, yes.

Anastasios

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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2006, 11:53:33 AM »



Do you think Metr. PAVLOS will have to retire?  I hope not, I have heard good things about him lately, and seems to love his flock. ÂÂ

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« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2006, 12:43:43 PM »

It is too soon to tell and such speculation is idle anyway. Just pray for him and God will do His will in His time.

Anastasios
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« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2006, 08:54:29 PM »

It is too soon to tell and such speculation is idle anyway. Just pray for him and God will do His will in His time.

Anastasios

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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2006, 12:14:14 AM »

...was unable to keep the weight down consistently (he kept the monastic fast all the time but breads and pastas can get to you after awhile with all those carbs).

I pray the archbishop will recover quickly.

However, whats the point of having this monastic fast if it will kill you or harm you? Isn't it better for monastics to have a little bit of extra protein and vegetables instead of substituting these with carbs? Wouldn't God be happier with us if we took care of our bodies, not just our souls?- not that I've been doing any excessive fasting any time, but I'm just wondering why orthodox (esp monastics) are expected to keep a fast which, today can easily lead to weight gain.
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2006, 12:27:47 AM »

I am inclined to agree with Timos
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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2006, 12:34:57 AM »

I pray the archbishop will recover quickly.

However, whats the point of having this monastic fast if it will kill you or harm you? Isn't it better for monastics to have a little bit of extra protein and vegetables instead of substituting these with carbs? Wouldn't God be happier with us if we took care of our bodies, not just our souls?- not that I've been doing any excessive fasting any time, but I'm just wondering why orthodox (esp monastics) are expected to keep a fast which, today can easily lead to weight gain.

I don't know if it is just the monastic fast that hurt him, but also all the travelling (correct me if I am wrong Anastasios).  The travelling may have put alot of stress on him.  It seems like I am always reading about (well, not lately obviously, but in the past, when he was healthier) on the HOTCA website that PAVLOS went to this parish for this feast, or went to this Monastery, or visited this parish for something else, or is doing something with the youth, etc.  He has been very active in the life of his metropolis, so thus, this may have added stress (possibly leading to increased weight, just a guess).
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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2011, 05:14:15 PM »

Matthewites are struggling true Orthodox Christians who resisted the innovation of the new calendar schismatics. Today the situation is worse with ecumenism.
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« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2011, 07:29:18 AM »

Matthewites are struggling true Orthodox Christians who resisted the innovation of the new calendar schismatics. Today the situation is worse with ecumenism.

Are you a "Matthewite" then?  If so, which group are you with who claims the name  (Abp Nicholas's, Met Kyrikos, Met Chrysostomos of Thebes, etc.)?  If you are a "Matthewite", it would be interesting to know why you believe your "Matthewite" group to be the true "Matthewite" group rather than the others, and what your position is regarding 1) the other "Matthewite" groups that you are not in communion with, and 2) other Old Calendarist groups in general that you are not in communion with (do you consider them schismatics or heretics, and why).
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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2011, 07:39:54 AM »

Matthewites are struggling true Orthodox Christians who resisted the innovation of the new calendar schismatics. Today the situation is worse with ecumenism.

Are you a "Matthewite" then?  If so, which group are you with who claims the name  (Abp Nicholas's, Met Kyrikos, Met Chrysostomos of Thebes, etc.)?  If you are a "Matthewite", it would be interesting to know why you believe your "Matthewite" group to be the true "Matthewite" group rather than the others, and what your position is regarding 1) the other "Matthewite" groups that you are not in communion with, and 2) other Old Calendarist groups in general that you are not in communion with (do you consider them schismatics or heretics, and why).

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« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2011, 09:21:44 AM »

Matthewites are struggling true Orthodox Christians who resisted the innovation of the new calendar schismatics. Today the situation is worse with ecumenism.

Are you a "Matthewite" then?  If so, which group are you with who claims the name  (Abp Nicholas's, Met Kyrikos, Met Chrysostomos of Thebes, etc.)?  If you are a "Matthewite", it would be interesting to know why you believe your "Matthewite" group to be the true "Matthewite" group rather than the others, and what your position is regarding 1) the other "Matthewite" groups that you are not in communion with, and 2) other Old Calendarist groups in general that you are not in communion with (do you consider them schismatics or heretics, and why).

I'm Spartacus!  No, I'm Spartacus! etc. Roll Eyes

I'm Catholic! No, I'm (Orthodox) Catholic! etc. Wink
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« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2011, 09:56:55 AM »

Matthewites are struggling true Orthodox Christians who resisted the innovation of the new calendar schismatics. Today the situation is worse with ecumenism.

Since this is an old thread, I think it is fair to note that of course, from the point of view of the canonical Orthodox Churches, (that is, the overwhelming majority of the Orthodox in the world) , they are the hopelessly divided schismatics.....
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Tags: Old Calendarists traditionalist HOTCA Matthewites schism GOC 
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