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Author Topic: St. Patrick and Coptic Orthodox Christianity  (Read 10095 times) Average Rating: 0
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EkhristosAnesti
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Pope St Kyrillos VI


« on: March 18, 2006, 08:28:09 AM »

Patrick and Coptic Christianity

The Egyptian "Coptic" Orthodox Church was one of the  first established Christian Churches, together with the Churches of Jerusalem and Antioch.    In the first centuries of Christianity, the Egyptian Church was very active and was working to spread Christianity, beyond Egypt.  Egyptian monks and laymen,  were everywhere. This was well documented by historians and the history of the church.

The Connection to France

A community of  Coptic monks went to Gaul  where they founded a community  on an island called "Lerins" in the Mediterranean Sea . The island was nearGaul.  

 David Marshall, Ph.D. of the University of Hull, England, has written a book which discusses   the strong connection between the St. Patrick  and the Coptic Monks in  Lerins.

In "Liturgics"  Fr. Dmitri Ross, OSJ . SSBM. MA. Th. L. EM;  discussed  the Celtic Church.  Fr. Dmiti Ross, of St. Dunstan of Canterbury Orthodox Parish, Cromwell, New Zealand,  also has  written of  how monasticism strongly influenced the Celtic Church and was a reason for   its quick  success.  Ross tells how  monastisicism came  to the Celtic Church from the Egyptian Church, "Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria".  The connection  came  through Gaul,( France), where a good number of  Egyptian monks were living  including those  in  the Monastery at Lerins.

History

During this time , there were not many  Christians in Ireland and the British Isles in general, but Christianity was foundt there that is,  before the time of St. Patrick.    The  writers and philosophers, Origan and Hippoluus of the third century, wrote that of  those who attended the First Ecumenical Council, "Nicea Council", there were people from the British Isles.  
This  was also  recorded by St.  Athanasius himself who  was an Egyptian deacon and  a key organizer of that council.  He  introduced the "Orthodox Creed", at that council, and also   defended  the faith against Arianism.  Athanasius  was  later the Pope of Alexandria.  

The Connection

 The Egyptian Church had  many   monks in Lerins.    St. Patrick,  of the Celtic Church, was born in Britain and was  a Roman citizen
he later  became a corner stone of Christianity in the British Isles. St. Patrick  wrote his autobiography, Confession.  When he was  sixteen, the army of the Irish King Niall,   attacked  the Britons.  Patrick was captured.     He   was then  taken then to Ireland and was enslaved.  Later, he was able to escape and  sailed to Gaul . Later  he went to the
Island of Lerins,  where the Egyptian Coptic monks  lived.  

St. Patrick  lived with these monks learning  the "Coptic Christianity of Egypt". The Coptic Church originated directly  from the Church of Jerusalem, rather than  from Rome and was also not like the Byzantine Church.

Dr. David Marshall  writes  that the "Celtic Christianity owes something to the Copts."   Patrick's residency  with the Coptic monks on the Island of Lerins, "accounted for his independence of Rome. St. Patrick prefered follow true orthodoxy.

Patrick  returned eventually  to Ireland.   Amator Bishop Auxerre ordained Patrick  a priest and the church prospered during his life.  After the death of St. Patrick  Rome turned against the Celtic Church,   because he had organized it according to  Coptic teaching. Were  in the Liturgy and Baptism because  the Egyptians  followed the Church of Jerusalem and not Rome.

Features the Celtic Church shared with the Coptic Church were :

The priest faces the altar [to the East]

Married Priesthood.

Bishops officiate in vestments of oriental character:  in gold and silver.

fasting occurs  on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Daily prayers, Mattins, Vespers etc.

Monks stay in separate cells.

Baptism is by immersion.

These are  known  as the rules of "Columba".

Rome held   these practices  to be  unacceptable Irish customs and  strongly  attacked the Celtic Church.   Rome was worried   about  the
rapid  growth of  the Celtic Church in Ireland and Britain and its  expansion  to Europe.  The Roman Pope  sent Augustine and eighty Benedictine monks to the south of  England  in order to  counter the Celtic movement. By mid 598AD, Augustine had established a base in Canterbury. Thousands from the Celtic Church were rebaptized again- in the Church of Rome.

Source: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~er719/patrick.html#Main
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« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2006, 08:28:59 AM »

On the Trail of the Seven Monks of Egypt
 

The Coptic Orthodox Church has long known of the historic links between the British Isles and Christian Egypt, but documentation and solid evidence is thin on the ground for these early centuries of church history. There are learned articles by Monique Blanc-Ortolan of the Musee des Arts dE9coratifs, Paris, and Pierre du Bourguet of the Louvre on 'Coptic and Irish Art' and by Joseph F.T. Kelly of John Carroll University, Cleveland, Ohio, on 'Coptic Influences in the British Isles' in the Coptic Encyclopedia which are worth consulting. Other works, like Shirley Toulson's The Celtic Year, which asserts that "rather than adhere to the ruling of the Council [of Chalcedon], some of the most dedicated adherents of Monophysitism fled from Egypt, and some of them most surely travelled west and north to Ireland", in their enthusiasm to establish a link, make up what is lacking in hard evidence with sheer conjecture and fantasy.

The late Archdale King noted the links between Celtic Ireland and Coptic Egypt. He suggests that much of the contact took place before the Muslim Conquest of 640. There exists evidence of a Mediterranean trade in a single passage in the life of St. John the Almsgiver (Ioannes III Eleemon), Greek Patriarch of Alexandria between 610-621, in which reference is made to a vessel sailing to Alexandria from Britain with a cargo of tin, doubtless come from Cornwall or Somerset.

King observes that the kind of asceticism associated with the Desert Fathers was especially congenial to the Irish but refers to Dom Henri Leclercq's suggestion that Celtic monasticism was directly derived from Egypt, as an "unsubstantiated hypothesis". No serious historian, however, would deny that first-hand knowledge of the Desert Fathers was brought directly to the South of Gaul by St. John Cassian and that the links between the British and Gallican churches were especially strong at this period. King nevertheless admits that the grouping together of several small churches within a cashel or fortified enclosure seems to support Leclercq's view.

King mentions an Ogham inscription on a stone near St. Olan's Well in the parish of Aghabulloge, County Cork, which scholars interpret as reading: 'Pray for Olan the Egyptian.' Professor Stokes tells us5 about the Irish monk Dicuil, who around 825 wrote his Liber de Mensure orbis terre describing the pyramids as well as an ancient precursor of the Suez Canal. It would seem that Egypt was often visited by pilgrims to the Holy Land. Stokes instances the Saltair Na Rann, an anthology of biblical poems attributed to Oengus the Culdee, but containing the sixth or seventh century Book of Adam and Eve, composed in Egypt and known in no other European country except Ireland.

King also notes that one of the commonest names for townlands or parishes is Disert or 'Desert': a solitary place in which anchorites were established. Presumably the same etymology gives us the Scottish Dysart, just north of Kirkcaldy, and the Welsh Dyserth, to the south of Prestatyn ? This would then present a consistent picture common to Celtic Christianity. The Martyrology of Oengus the Culdee, an early ninth century monastic bishop of Clonenagh (Co. Offaly) and later of Tallaght, has a litany invoking 'Seven monks of Egypt in Disert Uilaig, I invoke unto my aid, through Jesus Christ.' [Morfesseor do manchaib Egipr(e) in disiurt Uilaig]. The Antiphonary of Bangor (dating from between 680-691) also contains the text:

" ... Domus deliciis plena Super petram constructa Necnon vinea vera Ex Aegypto transducta ..."

which is translated as:

" ... House full of delight Built on the rock And indeed true vine Translanted from Egypt ..."

Providence undoubtedly put me in touch with Fr. Feargal Patrick McGrady, priest of Ballymena, County Antrim in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Down and Connor. As well as being a native of Downpatrick (the burial place of St. Patrick), Father Feargal is enthusiastic about the Eastern churches and holds His Holiness Pope Shenouda in high esteem. He was delighted to assist with my enquiries and very soon made contacts with local historians, who are the real source of the information we need.

Dr. Cahal Dallat, Genealogist and Historical Consultant, of Ballycastle, County Antrim, identified Disert Ilidh or Uilaigh with Dundesert, near Crumlin, county Antrim, which is to the north-west of Belfast, the capital of Northern Ireland, between Belfast International Airport and Templepatrick.

Mr. Bobbie Burns, a local historian living in Crumlin, was another link in the chain. He produced a report in the Belfast Telegraph of 13th July 1936 under the headline "Unique Once Famous Ulster Church: Neglected Crumlin Ruins", which showed the ruins of the medieval church built on the site of an earlier shrine. The local historical group is taking a renewed interest in the site and the local Protestant landowner has given permission for them to come and go freely to the site. It is hoped that they might obtain a grant to restore the dilapidated ruins but they are excited by its more ancient and possible Coptic connections. The site is approached by a path along the side of a grazing field 200-300 metres from Poplar Road. It is on the steep bank of the Crumlin River, which is a large free-flowing river, but is more than 100 metres from the water. Access is easy in dry weather, but not pleasant after heavy rain. The terrain inside the enclosure is very rough. The ground is strewn with boulders which have either fallen or been removed from the medieval walls. Parts of the medieval walls, in places three feet thick and covered in ivy, survive on the east (or gable) and south sides. The east wall contains two arched recesses or sedilia, now only about four feet in height but probably much higher if their foundations were cleared of the extensive in-fill of stones and earth. The gable rises to around thirty feet in height but a number of stones have already been removed and were any more to go it would be undermined and likely to collapse. What remains of the wall at the other end is much lower. It is likely that the whole structure would have been removed long ago but for the difficulties of dislodging stone from the walls and the problem of transportation to the road.

We are grateful for the efforts of these local enthusiasts for having preserved these ancient ruins and look forward to making further discoveries about the last resting place of the seven monks of Egypt.

Abba Seraphim

Source: http://www.britishorthodox.org/ireland.php
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2006, 10:29:16 AM »

Thanks for these resources. I have found the Celtic Church to be a wonderful cultural connection to Orthodoxy for myself. I am a convert of English, Scotch-Irish, Norman (French) and German descent. I do not even know if any of my ancestors go back far enough on the British Isles to have been members of the Celtic Church, but when converting from the Western Church to the Eastern Church and into a congregation of mostly eastern Europeans, it was helpful to have the Celtic connection to sort of "hang my hat" on.

In actual fact, it is more likely, being English and Norman, that my ancestors came into the Church after the Synod of Whitby, but at least they were a part of the Church prior to the Great Schism. So for me there is still an EO connection.

I know that for you Ekhristos, the real schism, for OO, occurred 500 years before that. I am only stating some observations of my personal journey and I appreciate these resources on the Celticn Church. I have known of the Egyptian monastic connection in Ireland. Many say that the Celtic designs show alot of similiarity to Egyptian designs.
So once again thank you for this info, following the feast of St.Patrick!
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2006, 04:58:18 PM »

I appreciate these posts, too, and have an experience much similar to Brother Aidan's.  It is gratifying for me to be learning the faith from the same source that my Celtic ancestors did.

Holy St. Patrick, Enlightener of Ireland, pray for us.
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 10:05:43 PM »

bumping this thread on St Patrick's day.

Glory to the Holy Trinity
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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 10:44:27 PM »

If anyone is interested in the Celtic saints I can recommend "Celtic Daily Prayer" by the Northumbrian Community. They seem to be a community of Evangelicals, Anglicans, Catholics, maybe some Orthodox. I do not accept all that they posit but there is a lot of good information about the various Celtic saints.
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2008, 01:47:18 AM »


Saint Partick was Catholic, and not Coptic by any stretch of the imagination.

Saint Patrick was Catholic.

First,

Christianity in Britain can be traced back as far as the third century. The bishops of London, York and Lincoln were present at the Catholic Council of Arles in 314, and signed the acts. [Mansi 2:476-7].

Saint Athanasius, in the opening of his "Apology" against Arias, also alludes to certain British bishops who participated at the Catholic Council of Sardica. [PG 25:249].

Saint Prosper's "Chronicle" [440] relates that the deacon Palladius was ordained by Pope Celestine, and sent as first bishop to the Irish believing in Christ. [PL 51, 595]. This text was often presented in Irish sources, for example the Annals of Innisfallen. [RHS 2: (unpaginated), ad annum 431].

From the "Tripartite Life":

"As the holy man [St. Patrick] was animated, and stirred by the Holy Spirit to obtain the conversion of the Irish, being already thirty years of age, he determined first to go to Rome, the citidel and mistress of Christian faith and doctrine, so as to receive draughts of true wisdom and orthodox discipline from the wellspring...". [Ed. Whitley Stokes, Rolls Series 89:25].

When Pope Celestine sent Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes to combat the Pelagian heresy in Britain, Patrick went with them. Germanus thought Patrick would make a good apostle to the Irish, and sent him to Rome.

An Irish writer called the "Scholiast of St. Fiacc 's hymn" depicts Patrick as studying the sacred canons under Germanus. Germanus told him:

"Go then to the successor of Peter. that is, Celestine, so that he may ordain you, for that office belongs to him." [Ed. J. Colgan, Trias Thaumaturga, Louvain 1647, p.5].

That Patrick went to the Pope in Rome under the order of Germanus, is confirmed by a ninth century Frankish monk named Hericus of Auxerre.[Bollandists, Acta Sanctorum IuIii 7:259].

Later sources contain similar remarks. The Vita Quarta of St. Patrick states that Germanus sent Blessed Patrick to Rome to seek permission from the Pope, and it says Patrick wanted to visit Rome. [ Ed. Bieler, SLH 8:77, 130-31].

In the last century, the Bollandists published a codex from Brussels containing Mauirchu's Life of St. Patrick. Chaper four mentions how Patrick went out "to visit and honor the Apostolic See [Rome], the head of all the churches of the entire world." [Ed. E. Hogan. AB 1 (1882), 552].

Saint Patrick prached the Catholic faith for six decades in Ireland.

Irish annals mention St. Patrick's mission from the Apostolic See [Rome].

The Four Masters writes: "St. Patrick was ordained to the episcopate by the holy Pope Celestine I, who ordained him to come to Ireland to preach, and give the Irish precepts of faith and religion." [ RHS 3:98].

The Annals of Ulster note that in 431 "Palladius was ordained bishop of the Irish by Celestine, bishop of Rome...in 432, Patrick reached Ireland [in the first year] of Pope Sixtus [432-440], forty-second bishop of the Roman Church..." [ RHS 4:1].

The Historia Britonum, generally attributed to Nemesius [c. 800 AD.] states Patrick went to Rome and stayed there a long time to study. [Nenni Historia Britonum, 50-51. English Historical Society, 1838, pp.41-42].

The Book of Armagh depicts Patrick as giving this exhortation to the new concerts of Ireland:

"From the world, you have passed on to paradise. Thanks be to God. Church of the Irish, indeed if the Romans, in order that you be Christians as the Romans are, at every hour it behooves you to sing that praiseworthy phraise: Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison". (Lord, have mercy, Christ have mercy)...[liber Ardmachanus, fol.9].

Probus, author of a medieval Life os St. Patrick says the latter went to see the Pope. [SLH 8:196-7].

The Book of Armagh includes this canon to Patrick:

"If any extemely difficult case arise..let it be referred...to the chair of the archbishop of the Irish...if however such a case cannot be settled in that see...we have decreed that it should be sent to the Apostolic See, that is, to the Chair of Peter, having authority of the city of Rome..."[liber Ardmachanus, fol. 21, verso].

This canon was repeated by an Irish synod [630], according to one of its members Cummian the hermit. [PL 87:973-4].



Saint Athanasius in his "Apology" against the Arians, also alluded to certain British bishops who participated at the Council of Sardica. [PG 25:249]. This council accured in the year 341.

Also, in the early fifth century, when the Pelagian heresy threatened to spread to Britain, Pope Celestine gave Saint Germanus, bishop of Auxerre, the mission to safeguard orthodoxy there.

Describing the mission of Germanus, St. Prosper of Aquitaine wrote:

"At the bidding of deacon Palladius, Pope Celestine sent Germanus, bishop of Auxerre, in his place to drive out the heretics and guide the Britons to the Catholic faith." [Chron, PL 51:594-5].

In another works, Saint Prosper added:

"With no less care [Pope Celestine] freed Britain from the disease when he banished from the remote island certain enemies of grace, natives of the country, and having ordered a bishop for the Irish, while he labored to keep a Roman island in the Catholic faith, he even made a barbarous island Christian." [Contra Coll., 21. PL 51:271].



About 700 A.D., an Irish collection of canons was compiled. Book XX, chapter 5 states:


Roman synod: if any province questions arise and the clergy cannot agree, let them be referred to the greater see... St. Patrick: If any grave questions arise in this island, let them be referred to the Apostolic See..." [Wasserschleben. Die Irische Kanonensammlung, 61].
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2008, 01:49:37 AM »


The author of this thread gave a link to a website [a secondary source]. Notice I used primary sources.
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2008, 02:19:15 AM »

Saint Partick was Catholic, and not Coptic by any stretch of the imagination.

Saint Patrick was Catholic.

First,

Christianity in Britain can be traced back as far as the third century. The bishops of London, York and Lincoln were present at the Catholic Council of Arles in 314, and signed the acts. [Mansi 2:476-7].

Umm..... Do you have any idea what you're talking about? What's this distinction between "Coptic" and "Catholic" in the fifth century?
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2008, 03:26:20 AM »

Umm..... Do you have any idea what you're talking about? What's this distinction between "Coptic" and "Catholic" in the fifth century?


Better yet, how about Orthodox? I don't think Euthymios has a good handle on that to start.
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2008, 12:56:43 PM »

Patrick and Coptic Christianity

.....................
Features the Celtic Church shared with the Coptic Church were :

The priest faces the altar [to the East]

Married Priesthood.

Bishops officiate in vestments of oriental character:  in gold and silver.

fasting occurs  on Wednesdays and Fridays.

Daily prayers, Mattins, Vespers etc.

Monks stay in separate cells.

Baptism is by immersion.

These are  known  as the rules of "Columba".

Rome held   these practices  to be  unacceptable Irish customs and  strongly  attacked the Celtic Church.   Rome was worried   about  the
rapid  growth of  the Celtic Church in Ireland and Britain and its  expansion  to Europe.  The Roman Pope  sent Augustine and eighty Benedictine monks to the south of  England  in order to  counter the Celtic movement. By mid 598AD, Augustine had established a base in Canterbury. Thousands from the Celtic Church were rebaptized again- in the Church of Rome.

Source: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~er719/patrick.html#Main

I distrust this source because this part mainly.  These practices were all practices of Rome.  Facing toward the altar(east) was the practice in Rome and all of the western churches until the 1960's.
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2008, 02:54:32 PM »

I distrust this source because this part mainly.  These practices were all practices of Rome.  Facing toward the altar(east) was the practice in Rome and all of the western churches until the 1960's.

Not quite accurate Jimmy.  Not sure how things are in the eastern US, but I know of many pre-1960's Roman Catholic churches in the western US whose altars are not (nor were they ever) oriented towards the east - the 100+ year old Cathedral Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Denver being a prime example.
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2008, 03:52:51 PM »

Not quite accurate Jimmy.  Not sure how things are in the eastern US, but I know of many pre-1960's Roman Catholic churches in the western US whose altars are not (nor were they ever) oriented towards the east - the 100+ year old Cathedral Basilica of the Immaculate Conception in Denver being a prime example.

Yes, the church itself might not be oriented toward the east in many cases.  St. Peter's itself is facing west I think.  But generally even in the west it is the tradition to have it facing east.  And even when the Church itself was oriented toward the west the priest himself was still facing the altar(away from the people).  This was true up until very recently.
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2008, 11:09:14 AM »

We read in St Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English Church and People that the Celtic mission failed on two major points; the date of Easter and the correct form of tonsure. Bede admitted the holiness of many of the Celtic missionaries including St Aidan and others including St Columba (one can visit the sites of their lives at Lindisfarne and Iona to this day). I recommend all who are interested in Celtic christianity to read this book.

It is said, and I'm too lazy to rake out sources at the moment, that Southern Ireland where St Patrick was active came around to the Roman view of the Paschal reckoning quickly, but that diehards holding on to the Columban view persisted for a while further north. The biographer of St Columba, St Adomnan, writing over a hundred years after his subject's death, brought his community on Iona to the Roman practise.

I am interested in factual information about this time and hope that scholarship brings more facts to light rather than romantic fiction about oppressed Celts.

In Christ
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« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2008, 02:57:18 AM »

Yes, the church itself might not be oriented toward the east in many cases.  St. Peter's itself is facing west I think.  But generally even in the west it is the tradition to have it facing east.  And even when the Church itself was oriented toward the west the priest himself was still facing the altar(away from the people).  This was true up until very recently.

Sometimes buildings are purchased from other communions and the only place for the altar is somewhere other than east. Then the orientations becomes "liturgical east."

It is possible that due to physical restaints or other reasons certain churches were constructed with the altar somewhere other than east and so, liturgical east will have to do.

In my house I have a perfect place physically for my "icon corner" that happens to face due west. I consider it liturgical east when I pray there.

Then again, maybe the parish in Denver was taking Christopher Columbus very seriously and felt that by orientating west they ultimately were orientating themselves east.  laugh

Maybe the discovery of a round earth (rather than a flat one) properly makes all of this more symbolic than literal anyway!

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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2014, 04:18:40 PM »

When is the Orthodox church going to become evangelist to the irsh traveller-gypsy community. They need the orthodox faith.
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2014, 04:59:21 PM »

I'm working on it John. And God is calling you to help.
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2014, 02:51:45 PM »

Thanks Fr peter im just trying to get a little more support from the wider orthodox family. I all have e=mailed you

Yours in Christ
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 11:34:44 PM »

Fascinating topic!  I agree with Jim, that the fact they mentioned practices like "facing east" seem to indicate the author has little understanding of Western Church history.  That doesn't mean the information in the article is false.  This idea that Patrick was Orthodox seems to get raised a lot in recent times and although I am American, I am 100% Irish blood so this topic is very interesting to me.  What ever tradition that St Patrick followed, I don't think it makes much of a difference.  I imagine it was very close to the OO and the RCC of the time.  The monastic link is interesting as that was a huge part of the Celtic church.  I still believe Patrick was from the Western Church, but I am open to new information and facts on the topic.  What would really be telling is if Coptic Church artifacts were found in Ireland. 

What does the Archaeology say about the topic?  Has anyone here on the message board researched this before?

On a side note, recent DNA seems to indicate that the Irish are not Celtic but rather Basque people.  I find this interesting as well! 

There are few Saints who have had as big an impact on the Church as St. Patrick.  He must have been one persuasive evangelist!  I think it would be very appropriate for all of us who regard him as a saint to ask for his intercession for unity and for the truth of his origins in Ireland. 
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2014, 09:58:49 PM »

I still believe Patrick was from the Western Church, but I am open to new information and facts on the topic.  What would really be telling is if Coptic Church artifacts were found in Ireland.  

I was under the impression that some evidence (what, I'm not sure) was discovered attesting to the Coptic presence in Ireland.  Anyway, at that early age, would there really have been distinctively Coptic artifacts that would've been brought to/manufactured in Ireland? 
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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2014, 10:14:43 PM »

With the Church of Hippo so sadly extinct, how can we know what can/could be considered Coptic as opposed to  or in comparison with the Church further west, both being North African?
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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2014, 12:10:49 AM »

I still believe Patrick was from the Western Church, but I am open to new information and facts on the topic.  What would really be telling is if Coptic Church artifacts were found in Ireland.  

I was under the impression that some evidence (what, I'm not sure) was discovered attesting to the Coptic presence in Ireland.  Anyway, at that early age, would there really have been distinctively Coptic artifacts that would've been brought to/manufactured in Ireland? 

Good question!  I was thinking perhaps a Coptic Cross because I thought that it;s a ancient style cross.  What about Coptic Manuscripts?  I know that's a long shot with Ireland weather but their must be something!  I petition OrthodoxChristianity.net to hire a full time Biblical Archologist to investigate these things!  Cheesy Cheesy

With the Church of Hippo so sadly extinct, how can we know what can/could be considered Coptic as opposed to  or in comparison with the Church further west, both being North African?

Also a good question!  I would think Liturgical Items would differ at this point in history.  Hopefully someone on this bored has some knowledge on the subject.
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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 01:50:47 AM »

With the Church of Hippo so sadly extinct, how can we know what can/could be considered Coptic as opposed to  or in comparison with the Church further west, both being North African?
Not exactly: there is quite a gulf between Alexandria and West of Cyrenaica.
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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2014, 01:55:56 AM »

I was concerned that you only cited a secondary source, but then noticed the link at the end, which turned-out to be invalid, perhaps unbeknownst to you. I want to respond to some of your claims.


A community of Coptic monks went to Gaul  where they founded a community on an island called "Lerins" in the Mediterranean Sea . The island was nearGaul.
.

That may be true, but can you cite any primary sources supporting the claim?

  David Marshall, Ph.D. of the University of Hull, England, has written a book which discusses the strong connection between the St. Patrick and the Coptic Monks in  Lerins.
.

I wonder if he has any primary sources supporting his thesis.

During this time , there were not many Christians in Ireland and the British Isles in general, but Christianity was foundt there that is, before the time of St. Patrick.  

At the time of St. Patrick, the Pelagian heresy was in Britain. When Pope Celestine sent Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes to combat the Pelagian heresy in Britain, St. Patrick went with them. Germanus thought Patrick would make a good apostle to the Irish, and sent him to Rome.

 
 The  writers and philosophers, Origan and Hippoluus of the third century, wrote that of  those who attended the First Ecumenical Council, "Nicea Council", there were people from the British Isles.

Christianity in Britain can be traced back as far as the third century. The bishops of London, York and Lincoln were present at the Council of Arles in 314, and signed the acts. [Mansi 2:476-7].

Saint Athanasius, in the opening of his "Apology" against Arias, also alludes to certain British bishops who participated at the Council of Sardica. [PG 25:249].

Saint Prosper's "Chronicle" [440] relates that the deacon Palladius was ordained by Pope Celestine, and sent as first bishop to the Irish believing in Christ. [PL 51, 595].

 
The Egyptian Church had many  monks in Lerins.

I wonder if there are primary sources supporting the claim.

quote author=EkhristosAnesti link=topic=8481.msg112156#msg112156 date=1142684889] St. Patrick, of the Celtic Church, was born in Britain and was a Roman citizen  he later  became a corner stone of Christianity in the British Isles. St. [/quote]

St. Patrick was born of a British father, the deacon Calpurnius, and a Gallic mother at Bonavem Taburniae, the precise location is disputed. At age 16, Patrick was abducted to Ireland, but escaped after six years. (Confessions, PL 53, 801 sq. Cf. Tripartite Life, Ed. Stokes, Rolls Series 89, p. 9 sq.).

Patrick  wrote his autobiography, Confession.  When he was  sixteen, the army of the Irish King Niall, attacked  the Britons.  Patrick was captured. He  was then  taken then to Ireland and was enslaved.  Later, he was able to escape and  sailed to Gaul . Later  he went to the  Island of Lerins,  where the Egyptian Coptic monks  lived.

What primary sources (if any) do you have showing that St. Patrick went to Lerins, and that there was an Egyptian Coptic presence there? I'm not saying this isn't true, I am just curious what your sources (if any) there are.

 
St. Patrick  lived with these monks learning  the "Coptic Christianity of Egypt". The Coptic Church originated directly  from the Church of Jerusalem, rather than from Rome and was also not like the Byzantine Church.

I am going to need primary sources supporting the claim that St. Patrick learned Coptic Christianity.

 
Dr. David Marshall  writes  that the "Celtic Christianity owes something to the Copts."  Patrick's residency  with the Coptic monks on the Island of Lerins, "accounted for his independence of Rome. St. Patrick prefered follow true orthodoxy.

St. Patrick was not independent of Rome. When Pope Celestine sent Germanus of Auxerre and Lupus of Troyes to combat the Pelagian heresy in Britain, Patrick went with them. Germanus thought Patrick would make a good apostle to the Irish, and sent him to Rome.

An Irish writer called the "Scholiast of St. Fiacc 's hymn" depicts Patrick as studying the sacred canons under Germanus. Germanus told him:

"Go then to the successor of Peter. that is, Celestine, so that he may ordain you, for that office belongs to him." [Ed. J. Colgan, Trias Thaumaturga, Louvain 1647, p.5].

That Patrick went to the Pope in Rome under the order of Germanus, is confirmed by a ninth century Frankish monk named Hericus of Auxerre.[Bollandists, Acta Sanctorum IuIii 7:259].

Later sources contain similar remarks. The Vita Quarta of St. Patrick states that Germanus sent Blessed Patrick to Rome to seek permission from the Pope, and it says Patrick wanted to visit Rome. [ Ed. Bieler, SLH 8:77, 130-31].

In the last century, the Bollandists published a codex from Brussels containing Mauirchu's Life of St. Patrick. Chapter four mentions how Patrick went out "to visit and honor the Apostolic See [Rome]"... [Ed. E. Hogan. AB 1 (1882), 552].

Saint Patrick prached the Catholic faith for six decades in Ireland.

Irish annals mention St. Patrick's mission from the Apostolic See [Rome].

The Four Masters writes: "St. Patrick was ordained to the episcopate by the holy Pope Celestine I, who ordained him to come to Ireland to preach, and give the Irish precepts of faith and religion." [ RHS 3:98].

The Annals of Ulster note that in 431 "Palladius was ordained bishop of the Irish by Celestine, bishop of Rome...in 432, Patrick reached Ireland [in the first year] of Pope Sixtus [432-440], forty-second bishop of the Roman Church..." [ Rerum Hibernicarum Scriptores 4:1].

The Historia Britonum, generally attributed to Nemesius [c. 800 AD.] states Patrick went to Rome and stayed there a long time to study. [Nenni Historia Britonum, 50-51. English Historical Society, 1838, pp.41-42].

The Book of Armagh depicts Patrick as giving this exhortation to the new concerts of Ireland:

"From the world, you have passed on to paradise. Thanks be to God. Church of the Irish, indeed if the Romans, in order that you be Christians as the Romans are, at every hour it behooves you to sing that praiseworthy phraise: Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison". (Lord, have mercy, Christ have mercy)...[liber Ardmachanus, fol.9].

Probus, author of a medieval Life of St. Patrick says the latter went to see the Pope. [SLH 8:196-7].

The Book of Armagh includes this canon to Patrick:

"If any extremely difficult case arise..let it be referred...to the chair of the archbishop of the Irish...if however such a case cannot be settled in that see...we have decreed that it should be sent to the Apostolic See, that is, to the Chair of Peter, having authority of the city of Rome..."[liber Ardmachanus, fol. 21, verso].

This canon was repeated by an Irish synod [630], according to one of its members Cummian the hermit. [PL 87:973-4].

If you are trying to give the impression that St. Patrick was not in communion with Rome, the sources do not support you. St. Patrick was a true Orthodox Catholic Christian who honored the bishop of Rome. But he was not a Roman Catholic in the Vatican 1 sense.

...After the death of St. Patrick  Rome turned against the Celtic Church,   because he had organized it according to  Coptic teaching. Were in the Liturgy and Baptism because  the Egyptians  followed the Church of Jerusalem and not Rome.

I am going to need some evidence for this claim. As a missionary accredited by Rome, St. Patrick urged the converts of Ireland to imitate Roman practice. The Book of Armagh depicts him giving this exhortation to his new converts:

"From the world, you have passed on to paradise. Thanks be to God. Church of the Irish, indeed if the Romans, in order that you be Christians as the Romans are, at every hour it behooves you to sing that praiseworthy phraise: Kyrie eleison, Christe eleison". (Lord, have mercy, Christ have mercy)...[liber Ardmachanus, fol.9].

Rome was worried   about  the  rapid  growth of  the Celtic Church in Ireland and Britain and its  expansion  to Europe.  The Roman Pope  sent Augustine and eighty Benedictine monks to the south of  England  in order to  counter the Celtic movement. By mid 598AD, Augustine had established a base in Canterbury. Thousands from the Celtic Church were rebaptized again- in the Church of Rome.

Really? Let me tell you about Rome and Irish Canon Law.

The Book of Armagh includes this canon to Patrick:

"If any extremely difficult case arise..let it be referred...to the chair of the archbishop of the Irish...if however such a case cannot be settled in that see...we have decreed that it should be sent to the Apostolic See, that is, to the Chair of Peter, having authority of the city of Rome..."[liber Ardmachanus, fol. 21, verso].

As I said above, this canon was repeated by an Irish synod [630], according to one of its members Cummian the hermit. [PL 87:973-4].



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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2014, 02:24:02 AM »


So is the guy you're responding to (he hasn't posted since 2012).  Tongue
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2014, 02:27:00 AM »

With the Church of Hippo so sadly extinct, how can we know what can/could be considered Coptic as opposed to  or in comparison with the Church further west, both being North African?
Not exactly: there is quite a gulf between Alexandria and West of Cyrenaica.

Huh? Not exactly? Not exactly what? I am well aware of the geography and am still impressed by similarities I have seen in YouTube Coptic liturgies and older Roman Catholic ones. Hippo was extremely influential in the west, hence my musings.
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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2014, 02:40:27 AM »

I am well aware of the geography and am still impressed by similarities I have seen in YouTube Coptic liturgies and older Roman Catholic ones. Hippo was extremely influential in the west, hence my musings.

What similarities do you see?  I worship at a Coptic church often enough to be comfortable with the Liturgy, and I attend the local Latin Mass parish whenever it's not Low Mass, and any similarities between the two are not immediately apparent to me.  I've got some guesses as to what you might have in mind, but that's about it.  The Coptic Liturgy, to me, seems like a unique mix of Byzantine and Syriac texts (and Egyptian compositions, of course) with uniquely Egyptian rites and order.  But I will grant you that "Roman rite" and "Coptic rite" in general share similarities and even a "similar philosophy" which the latter rite usually does not share with just about the rest of the East.   
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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2014, 03:12:14 AM »

I am well aware of the geography and am still impressed by similarities I have seen in YouTube Coptic liturgies and older Roman Catholic ones. Hippo was extremely influential in the west, hence my musings.

What similarities do you see?  I worship at a Coptic church often enough to be comfortable with the Liturgy, and I attend the local Latin Mass parish whenever it's not Low Mass, and any similarities between the two are not immediately apparent to me.  I've got some guesses as to what you might have in mind, but that's about it.  The Coptic Liturgy, to me, seems like a unique mix of Byzantine and Syriac texts (and Egyptian compositions, of course) with uniquely Egyptian rites and order.  But I will grant you that "Roman rite" and "Coptic rite" in general share similarities and even a "similar philosophy" which the latter rite usually does not share with just about the rest of the East.   

To which I would say you understand my impressions then.
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2014, 12:27:39 PM »

There are St Mena flasks found in the British Isles suggesting some pilgrims went to Egypt in the early period. We also know that Egyptian grain ships travelled to the British Isles (Life of St John the Almsgiver). We also know that seven monks made it from Egypt to Ireland.

I don't think there is much of a direct influence beyond these sort of contacts. The greater influence is Eastern monasticism mediated through St John Cassian, Lerin, etc etc. I don't think that requires a Coptic community at Lerin even if some Easterners living there.
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« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2014, 02:00:17 PM »

To which I would say you understand my impressions then.

OK.  Most of the similarities I've noted between the two traditions were "monastic" and I presumed it had to do with the influence of St John Cassian on Western monasticism, and Western monasticism's influence on Roman liturgy.  I never really thought about whether or not "North Africa" was a liturgical middleman between Rome and Alexandria.  Hmm...   
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