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Author Topic: Male emissions and communion  (Read 9839 times) Average Rating: 0
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SakranMM
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« on: March 15, 2006, 03:52:22 PM »

I know that the generally accepted idea is that if a man has a nocturnal emission, he should not commune the next day.  But it also is that case that sometimes throughout the day, some men experience minimal seminal discharge as a natural body function.  Hypothetically, would this prevent a man from communing?  (Of course, the final say would come from the spiritual father).  Thoughts?

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2006, 04:21:24 PM »

 ::)Sounds like "puritanism."  Does this mean that some people believe a married couple are also not to commune after having relations?  This stuff sounds like the whacko sects that developed in Russia and elsewhere in older times!  The hard working people in Europe maybe had no time or energy for marital relations except on Saturday nights!
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2006, 04:26:30 PM »

Actually, it is pretty clearly established in Orthodox tradition that one cannot have sex and then go to communion. Nothing puritanical about it; sex is not bad, but neither is a nice steak. Either way, you can't partake of these and then commune--you have to fast beforehand.

As for hardworking people in Europe, I'm not sure what they did but their culture is the one that came up with these rules! lol

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2006, 04:31:30 PM »

Most of the stuff I've read on this topic comes from traditionalist websites. ÂÂ I believe the consensus is that a married couple should not commune after having relations the night before. ÂÂ I understand the need for purity and spiritual focus when approaching the gifts. ÂÂ However, I see your point as far as the "puritanism" thing is concerned. ÂÂ I understand the issue of abstaining from marital relations before communion.  Specifically, though, how do men's involuntary emissions (nocturnal or otherwise) come into the picture?
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2006, 04:46:17 PM »

I'm going to have to agree with bergschlawiner here. These seem to be ideals of bodily uncleannes derived from an Aristotelian dichotomy between body and soul, manifested in rules generally developed in a monastic context by those living a monastic life. The bodily function cannot properly be regarded as unclean and if it occurs independent of unclean thoughts the source can not be regarded as unclean either.

Concerning marital relations before communion, I tend to oppose any such restrictions because I believe it contributes to an already Aristotelian understanding of the Body and Natural Functions as unclean by the laity, but if one wants to include such activity in the pre-communion fast along with food, fine, but the amount of time that one should abstain from sexual intercourse (with their spouse, of course) should be no longer than the amount of time they abstain from food prior to communion (6 hrs according to most bishops I've heard speak on the issue). And this, of course, following St. Paul's admonition should only be by mutual consent.

So there's my take on the matter from a general theological and philosophical perspective.
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2006, 05:16:08 PM »

The bodily function cannot properly be regarded as unclean and if it occurs independent of unclean thoughts the source can not be regarded as unclean either

Interesting...I never even took into account the motive behind such issues, whether coming from a lustful thought or action, or whether they were a consequence of nature.
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2006, 05:22:52 PM »

We pray for sins "voluntary and involuntary." Seems like emmissions could be "involuntary sins" in this vein; a result of fallen nature.

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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2006, 05:30:05 PM »

Do what you feel is right. Pay no attention to these man made laws.
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2006, 05:40:19 PM »

Do what you feel is right. Pay no attention to these man made laws.

What one "feels" is right usually leads to sadness.  That's why these laws were developed, partly given by God, partly given by the Church as a response to its pastoral knowledge.  2000 years of dealing with people and their ways has given the Church a much better insight into what makes people happy than "what I feel".

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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2006, 05:57:44 PM »

We pray for sins "voluntary and involuntary." Seems like emmissions could be "involuntary sins" in this vein; a result of fallen nature.

This is, of course, assuming these emissions are not a natural but, along with reproduction I would presume, a result of the fall. But I would argue that the body and bodily functions are not part of the fall, but rather part of man in his Created and Natural state; thus making the exersizing of these bodily functions not inherently wrong, but only wrong if accompanied by an actual sin (adultery or fornication or unclean thoughts and desires).
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2006, 06:10:59 PM »

I remember reading something about this that was written for monks; it said that emissions quite often result from some kind of sexual thoughts or stimulation during the day, therefore it was taken as somewhat of a sign that the monk had entertained impure thoughts and they resulted in an emission.  So it is the thoughts that were sinful, not the actual physical emission.  That could be no more sinful than digesting your food.  Impure thoughts, at least for a serious monk, ought very well to be a reason to abstain from communion, until they are confessed.

As for the layman...I wonder if wanting to abstain from communion may have more to do with a sense of guilt he might feel which would be a product of the society he lives in.  If we feel guilty about something, that could be a valid reason not to commune.  If there is no guilt, and a man knows he hasn't been impure but that it just happened, I see no reason to think oneself "unclean" and unfit for God.  Since when are emissions a product of the Fall?

This all can be applied to menstruating women too...
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2006, 06:44:06 PM »

I know that the generally accepted idea is that if a man has a nocturnal emission, he should not commune the next day.  But it also is that case that sometimes throughout the day, some men experience minimal seminal discharge as a natural body function.  Hypothetically, would this prevent a man from communing?  (Of course, the final say would come from the spiritual father).  Thoughts?

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Rdr. Michael

Forgive my bluntness . . . but if that's all I had to worry about, whether I was leaking during the day or while sleeping . . .

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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2006, 07:03:40 PM »

Forgive my bluntness . . . but if that's all I had to worry about, whether I was leaking during the day or while sleeping . . .

Exactly. It's nonsense.
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2006, 07:42:09 PM »

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6 hrs according to most bishops I've heard speak on the issue

It's 9 hours in the Coptic Church.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2006, 08:14:00 PM »

I know that the generally accepted idea is that if a man has a nocturnal emission, he should not commune the next day.

Do we still live under Levitican times? This has to be one of the lamest rules I've ever heard. Just take a shower before you go to liturgy, it should be okay.

Peace.
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2006, 08:36:15 PM »

Just take a shower before you go to liturgy, it should be okay.

Peace.
Grin  I'm sorry, but this was pretty funny.  Being "unclean" or "unpure" does not have to do with being "dirty" per se.
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2006, 09:45:16 PM »

It's 9 hours in the Coptic Church.

I was unaware of that, thank you. With the latins I believe they've narrowed it down to something around a half hour...but I expected that, if anything, the length of time would be longer, not shorter, for the Copts; you tend to be more strict that we are.
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2006, 10:51:51 PM »

I was unaware of that, thank you. With the latins I believe they've narrowed it down to something around a half hour...but I expected that, if anything, the length of time would be longer, not shorter, for the Copts; you tend to be more strict that we are.

Ya, that's true.  There's so many rules to follow regarding the Eucharist, one of which we also have is the present subject.  (RC's half an hour?  wow!  Imagine having some omelets, or beans in the fasting period, and a cup of coffee before going to church...lol)

I have to say though that if emissions were done sinfully (that is with sinful intentions) the night before the Eucharist, then it is probably the sinful thoughts behind it that makes one feel guilty partaking of the Eucharist the following day, especially since you didn't have time to repent.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2006, 12:34:46 AM »

I wish this thread were deleted.
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2006, 12:50:39 AM »

I don't see how Coptic fasting rules are stricter- not that I prefer or disdain them. I always hear Coptic people bragging about how they've got the lengthiest and hardest fast...they don't have to fast from oil and wine for the duration of the fast.

For 50 days after Easter, it is fast-free in the Coptic church- its only a week after which is fast free in the EO church. Other than that, its the same, wed. and fri. fast of apostles, dormition, advent. If anything the EO fast is more strenuous, not that that is something to be proud of or to disdain either.

As for liturgy, most parishes have a liturgy that is 1.5 hrs to 2.5 hours. And thats with the priest saying the majority of the prayers silently. imagine how long liturgy would be if all the prayers were chanted/said aloud!
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2006, 01:26:13 AM »

I wish this thread were deleted.

Why?  Just because several people disagree with you?  I seem to recall you saying this more than once before when the tide was against you.
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2006, 08:37:22 AM »

I wish this thread were deleted.

Look man, that's fine if you'd like that, but it's not going to happen.  The world doesn't revolve around your wishes.  Just do what others do when they come across annoying threads or annoying posters - ignore the thread, and don't read it.  That's all.  There are plenty of annoying posters here on oc.net - if each one of us were to read all the posts by them, we'd go nutz.
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2006, 08:57:41 AM »

...they don't have to fast from oil and wine for the duration of the fast.

On the other hand, we don’t have the shellfish exception (shrimp, lobster, scallops, crabs, clams, mussels, oysters…yummmmmm), nor can we eat cheeeeeeeese (remember the cheese?) and other dairy products during preparation week i.e. the Fast of Nineveh, nor can we eat any fish per se on the Feast of the Annunciation or Palm Sunday.

I'd swap with you in anyday; I could live off shrimp alone for the rest of my life.
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2006, 09:11:27 AM »

I know that the generally accepted idea is that if a man has a nocturnal emission, he should not commune the next day. ÂÂ

Never heard such a rubbish - in Roman church!
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2006, 09:47:27 AM »

I was unaware of that, thank you. With the latins I believe they've narrowed it down to something around a half hour...

In the Novus Ordo of the Latin Rite, it is 1 hour before the act of Communion (note, it is not one hour before the Mass begins).

In communities where the indult for the Tridentine Rite is in place, it has not been changed and the fast is still required from midnight the night befire receiving, which is what I have been taught is the case for the EO as well.
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2006, 10:03:51 AM »

Wo...you can eat seafood on lent?
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2006, 10:15:18 AM »

I would like to point out that despite what I wrote above, I do find the issue of emissions and communion to be troubling.  It would be nice if someone would do a study on it but that might seem kind of well, suspicious. Imagine, you are the editor of a presitgious Orthodox theological journal, and someone comes and says, "yes, I would like to submit my recent work on the history of nocturnal emissions exclusionary canons in the light of recent research into the field."

"Research into the field, you say?"

"Yes"

"What kind of research have you been conducting, man!"

Some customs, such as infrequent communion, are not Church traditions and are described as ancient errors by such luminaries as the Kollyvades Fathers.  But before we go and scrap the whole idea, I think we need to check the canons, check their context, check what else has been written, and see what the prayers that a priest is supposed to say if this happens to him the night before liturgizing say to get a theological feel for it.

Again, *I'm* not the one that's going to do this research but if anyone else feels the desire... er, need, er...oh darn it! lol

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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2006, 10:18:42 AM »

LOL Cheesy
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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2006, 11:04:49 AM »

We can have sea food which does not have a backbone. Technically in the Coptic church this would be the case also. We cannot have fish because that has a backbone. We can have shrimp, scallops, and squid. I'm not sure about the lobster though...
 
Plus, most people cannot afford to have these things on the dinner table frequently. Maybe only couple times in the fast.

Yes, cheese is allowed during prep. week but, after Ressurection, we don't have a 50 day long non-fasting period.

Do you know hard it is to go without oil during fasting? How do you expect to fry your potatoes???

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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2006, 11:33:23 AM »

Quote
Technically in the Coptic church this would be the case also.

No, no, no. Technically and non-technically, this is not the case in the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Quote
We can have shrimp, scallops, and squid. I'm not sure about the lobster though...

Lobsters don’t have backbones. Eat up!

Quote
Plus, most people cannot afford to have these things on the dinner table frequently.

Are you kidding me?

Quote
Yes, cheese is allowed during prep. week but, after Ressurection, we don't have a 50 day long non-fasting period.

Well, not fasting after the resurrection makes sense; it’s supposed to be a joyous season. We all know why you have a week of dairy though, and it certainly doesn’t make sense to me.

Quote
Do you know hard it is to go without oil during fasting? How do you expect to fry your potatoes???

I was under the impression that it was only olive oil that was prohibited.

In any event, you can have shrimp and baked potato, whereas I am left with….just potato  Sad.

Do you feel sorry for me yet? After all, I entered this debate upon the impression that it was a “who deserves more sympathy for being in the Church with the stricter fasting tules” debate, and I’d like to know if I’m winning.
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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2006, 11:53:11 AM »

Are you kidding me?

Last time I actually followed the lenten fast, I virtually lived off non-blood fish.

Quote
Well, not fasting after the resurrection makes sense; it’s supposed to be a joyous season. We all know why you have a week of dairy though, and it certainly doesn’t make sense to me.

The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch also has a 50 day fast free period after Pascha, but for the other Patriarchates it's only one week. The week of dary seems somewhat strange to me as well, especially since it's technically a week of feasting, and not fasting, just without meat. Go figure.

Quote
I was under the impression that it was only olive oil that was prohibited.

Technically this is the case, those who abstain from more bring it upon themselves so don't feel compelled to feel sorry for them on account of their voluntary asceticism Wink

Quote
Do you feel sorry for me yet? After all, I entered this debate upon the impression that it was a “who deserves more sympathy for being in the Church with the stricter fasting tules” debate, and I’d like to know if I’m winning.

You know, when I made the comment that started all this I wasn't actually even refering to technicalities in cutoms and canons, I was really just refering to the fact that the Copts tend to take these customs more seriously than others. (Says someone who had sausage and sauerkraut for dinner last night...which I dont believe is allowed no matter how you look at it Grin )
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« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2006, 01:03:54 PM »

GiC,

Quote
These seem to be ideals of bodily uncleannes derived from an Aristotelian dichotomy between body and soul, manifested in rules generally developed in a monastic context by those living a monastic life.

i) It would seem it's precisely because one believes the body and the soul are intimately interwoven (hence why death is a violent intrusion upon God's purposes for mankind), that would justify the customs being discussed here.  It would be a platonic "spirit-good-important/body-unworthy-unimportant" type rationale which would actually allow the idea that disturbances in either the body or the soul do not in meaningfully cross over from one to the other.

ii) The biggest difference between monastic life and "secular" life, is one of degree not kind - all Christians have the same essential calling, and all being human beings of a common nature, have the same basic set of dynamics at worth within them.

Quote
The bodily function cannot properly be regarded as unclean and if it occurs independent of unclean thoughts the source can not be regarded as unclean either.

I don't think anyone here is speaking about "uncleaness" in this sort of superficial way.  While it is obvious that people generally don't directly "will" a nocturnal emission (and if they do, they've got bigger problems than simply "wet dreams"), neither does Orthodoxy accept the essentially Roman Catholic definition of "sin".  While there is no place in Catholicism for the asking of forgiveness of sins "voluntary or involuntary", this is certainly the case in Orthodoxy, given that it fundamentally understands sin in the Biblical sense of "falling short", and fallen man as one who is ill.  That one has sexual dreams may not in itself be a direct act of the will, but it is very often a sign of where we are to be found wanting.

Quote
Concerning marital relations before communion, I tend to oppose any such restrictions because I believe it contributes to an already Aristotelian understanding of the Body and Natural Functions as unclean by the laity, but if one wants to include such activity in the pre-communion fast along with food, fine, but the amount of time that one should abstain from sexual intercourse (with their spouse, of course) should be no longer than the amount of time they abstain from food prior to communion (6 hrs according to most bishops I've heard speak on the issue). And this, of course, following St. Paul's admonition should only be by mutual consent.

Fasting has always been the normal preparation for receiving Holy Communion, and in Orthodoxy at least, fasting includes sexual abstinance.  This is not out of a spirit of revulsion for natural goods (esp. the ones we're describing, as lived by Christians - for our food is received with prayer and blessing, and the mystery of marriage is blessed by God), but out of a desire to put such things aside (if only temporarily) in favour of focusing upon the goods of the World to Come, which are eternal and imperishing (where as marriage and it's use ends for us individually in this life, and will come to an end for all at the Last Judgement.)

Quote
This is, of course, assuming these emissions are not a natural but, along with reproduction I would presume, a result of the fall. But I would argue that the body and bodily functions are not part of the fall, but rather part of man in his Created and Natural state; thus making the exersizing of these bodily functions not inherently wrong, but only wrong if accompanied by an actual sin (adultery or fornication or unclean thoughts and desires).

I think it's important to make correct distinctions here.  On one hand, you're right in so far as the way some unlearned people think of the fall, one would have to conclude that the fall of the first man (and his wife) involved some change to their nature.  I agree that this would be incorrect.  St.Athanasios states in his On the Incarnation that the "law of death" is in a sense natural - that sense being, that it is what will consequentially happen to beings seperated from God.

However this is not what God had in store for mankind in the beginning.  Adam and Eve were offered two paths, as it were - one which leads to blessedness and life, the other to misery and death.  But the two are not equivelent, nor are they to be portrayed as both being God-pleasing - for wherever God puts this kind of choice before us He always says "choose life".  The theme of the "two paths" is a very common one in early Christian literature (ex. the Didache, and if memory serves correctly, the Epistle of Barnabas).  While Adam had not yet inherited "Life" in Paradise, neither was he created in corruption either.  Sadly, he chose badly.

At the same time however, God has never left us completely unprepaired - even when we choose evil.  Thus, mankind did not simply "poof" out of existance with that original sin, but has continued.  Indeed, his ability to still continue (however painfully) is itself given by God - just as God gave our first parents the "garments of flesh" as they were exiled from Paradise.  This is why the Fathers who address this topic, seem pretty clear in saying that had they the chance, the manner of procreation which Adam and Eve would have enjoyed in Paradise would have been very different (as was pretty much everything else about their life in Eden) than what we experience.  Just as they would never have tasted death, neither would they have experienced the lustful feelings we do, which are intimately linked to our mortality.

Matrimony, most especially Christian marriage, is a redemption of this carnality.  It fuses it's expression to love and duty; the procreation of Godly offspring, and the fostering of intimate friendship between the spouses (and it also puts a definite limit upon the expression of sexual feelings; hence why marriage can rightly be called a form of chastity).

However, when the fallen state of our bodies (which will not be fully redeemed until the Ressurection) acts out in the way we're speaking of (and it even happens to those who are quite pious, sincere, and careful about guarding their eyes and thoughts), we have a very personal and bitter reminder that we are sinners.  So while such things in a way "natural" (to a bad state of affairs), this doesn't mean they are of no negative consequence, or that they do not war against everlasting Life.  Broadly speaking, a contrary understanding makes the ascetic struggle (which is an essential part of genuine Christianity) incomprehensible.

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MicahJohn
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« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2006, 02:41:18 PM »

Wow, I never thought of that...that Adam and Eve would not necessarily have experienced anything like our unquenchable desires for physical gymnastics.  That perhaps reproduction would have been quite a dispassionate thing...how blessed!  No different than sleeping or breathing.

But I don't know that it has really been established as to exactly why an emission ought to prevent one from communing.  It can't automatically mean the person has committed a sin.  Isn't it nothing more than a sign or reminder of our fallenness?

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This is why the Fathers who address this topic, seem pretty clear in saying that had they the chance, the manner of procreation which Adam and Eve would have enjoyed in Paradise would have been very different
Btw, Augustine, what Fathers you were speaking of in particular who have addressed this topic?  I'd like to read them myself.
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« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2006, 10:24:07 PM »

You know EA, I've already explained numerous times before why the cheese is allowed to be eaten but that seems to be a stumbling block for you. Again, the guy who wrote that we eat cheese to somehow overcome your supposed "heresy" -that was his opinion- NOT official church teaching, official doesn't even need to be in thee. Its not in there at all.

The reason is to move in to the fast gradually. As for the seafood, not everyone likes it. I don't mind it like twice a year, but I don't go crazy for it at all. And no I'm not kididng. I don't know what profession you have, but our family certainly doesn't have the bills to put seafood on thr table every single day! Other people might hate seafood but love vegetables and grains- in which case, the coptic fasting would be a breeze for him/her. It all depends. The reason some seafood is also allowed is because back in the day, seafood was very cheap and more readily available than other foods which might not be.

Yes you are winning the contest. I see its really important for you that your particular church outdoes everyone elses. O I'm sorry I didn't know that this was a debate. Thnx for the heads up.

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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2006, 12:15:22 AM »

Technically on days without oil and wine (monday - friday of lent) in the EO tradition one is allowed one meal per day (after sunset) of boiled vegtables and bread.  One the first week a meal is only to be eaten on Wednesday and Friday.  On Holy week a meal is eaten on Thursday and Saturday.  
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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2006, 02:55:38 AM »

back on topic about male emissions and communion.  There is actually a set of prayers to be read when you have such a nocturnal emmission.  I know of at least on ROCOR priest who actually stayed up all night to assure that he did not have one prior to Sunday Liturgy so he could serve the Liturgy. I got my copy of prayers at a Monastery but they might also be available from a more conservative Orthodox Press or even from Light and Life.

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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2006, 08:39:26 AM »

{ASIDE}

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8462.msg111951#msg111951 date=1142568922]
Technically on days without oil and wine (monday - friday of lent) in the EO tradition one is allowed one meal per day (after sunset) of boiled vegtables and bread.  One the first week a meal is only to be eaten on Wednesday and Friday.  On Holy week a meal is eaten on Thursday and Saturday.  
[/quote]

Technically, in the EO tradition, restrictions like this can only be imposed by a spiritual father on the laity.
And, there is no meal on Holy Saturday, because you're fasting all day for communion, another EO tradition (the ancient practice is, if there is liturgy at any point in the day, that you don't eat at all beforehand on that day).

{/aside}
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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2006, 09:31:21 AM »

You know, when I made the comment that started all this I wasn't actually even refering to technicalities in cutoms and canons

I had no idea what you were referring to actually, I just love to bait Timos, because, well, he seems to ask for it, and because it's fairly easy too.

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I was really just refering to the fact that the Copts tend to take these customs more seriously than others.

Where did you pull that one from?

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Says someone who had sausage and sauerkraut for dinner last night...which I dont believe is allowed no matter how you look at it

Please, if you’re going to break the fast, at least do it with style. Unless that sausage was cooked in red wine, and served coated with a fried egg, then I am not even remotely impressed.
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« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2006, 09:34:13 AM »

You know EA, I've already explained numerous times before why the cheese is allowed to be eaten but that seems to be a stumbling block for you. Again, the guy who wrote that we eat cheese to somehow overcome your supposed "heresy" -that was his opinion- NOT official church teaching, official doesn't even need to be in thee. Its not in there at all.

At least it was something in writing; all you have given us is hearsay. I don’t see how your explanation is any more valid, let alone official, than the one given by John Erickson, the Dean of St Vladimir’s Theological College.

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As for the seafood, not everyone likes it. I don't mind it like twice a year, but I don't go crazy for it at all.

You’re just weird. Everyone loves seafood.

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I don't know what profession you have, but our family certainly doesn't have the bills to put seafood on thr table every single day!

I don’t know where you live, but the price of seafood in Australia is most certainly affordable even for the low range income earners — maybe not for daily consumption, but at least a couple of times a week is good enough.

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Other people might hate seafood but love vegetables and grains- in which case, the coptic fasting would be a breeze for him/her.

No more of a breeze than Greek fasting, which as far as I know likewise permits vegetables and grains. It would simply be a matter of one not taking advantage of the luxurious shellfish exception.

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The reason some seafood is also allowed is because back in the day

But we are not back in the day, we are in today, and shall be in tomorrow.

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Yes you are winning the contest.

Yes!

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I see its really important for you that your particular church outdoes everyone elses.

That’s the plan! Why else do you think I was the first one to bother posting for the exclusive purpose of making a comparison between Coptic and EO fasting in a thread concerning male emissions? Oh, wait a second…that wasn’t me.

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O I'm sorry I didn't know that this was a debate.

Well, guess what…you lost!

*sighs*
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« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2006, 11:21:32 AM »

OK.  Now that we've run the "Male Emissions" topic into the ground . . . what about "Female Emissions"?  They don't get aroused??

[ just kidding ]

I think the horse has been beaten to death already.
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« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2006, 12:35:35 PM »

I'm going to have to agree with bergschlawiner here. These seem to be ideals of bodily uncleannes derived from an Aristotelian dichotomy between body and soul, manifested in rules generally developed in a monastic context by those living a monastic life. The bodily function cannot properly be regarded as unclean and if it occurs independent of unclean thoughts the source can not be regarded as unclean either.

Nocturnal emissions do result from unclean thoughts. They occur when one dreams of sex.
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« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2006, 12:37:37 PM »

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Technically, in the EO tradition, restrictions like this can only be imposed by a spiritual father on the laity.

Well what I posted is what is foudn in the Triodion, hence that is officially the fast.  Of course the vast majority either can't or won't follow that.  
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« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2006, 12:59:29 PM »

Nocturnal emissions do result from unclean thoughts. They occur when one dreams of sex.

RRRRRRRRight.
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« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2006, 12:26:11 AM »

EA, fine wutever. You won 1st prize. So now I'm a nestorian heretic and weird, wonderful. I wouldn't trust the Dean of St. Vlad's either. Holy Cross all the way. Besides Holy Cross' OCA chaplain is the coolest priest-monk I've ever talked to (Fr. Gerasimos Makris).

I was also shocked that you knew anything about St. Vlads, as you are an Aussie guy. Howz the rubbish keeping? Haha, wut a funny word. Here we use "garbage" or trash. Add them to your list of vocabulary to memorize.
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« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2006, 10:06:59 PM »

Nocturnal emissions do result from unclean thoughts. They occur when one dreams of sex.

STOP IT!!! You're making too much sense! You obviously haven't been reading your modern psychology manuals!
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