Topic: Nostra Aetate: Catholics and Moslems believe in the same god

[montalban]

Thanks for those generous sentiments

Try looking at the OP first, before commenting. Why not actually come up with an argument? In that you can actually state what it is you object to/agree with and why.

[The Wolf]

Probably the fact that Islam doesn't worship the same god as Christians do.

I don't know about you but I rather subscribe to the view that there is only one God to believe in. Therefore those who believe in God believe in God whether or not they have a good or a poor grasp of what God is.

[The Wolf]

Probably the fact that Islam doesn't worship the same god as Christians do.

What was said was Catholics and Muslims believe in one God and Eastern Orthodox Christian another God.
The suggesting being Catholics aren't Christians at all.
Is this your meaning?

[montalban]

I don't know about you but I rather subscribe to the view that there is only one God to believe in. Therefore those who believe in God believe in God whether or not they have a good or a poor grasp of what God is.

So Satanists worship God?
Jesus said “Not all who cry “Lord! Lord” will be saved”. That is, not all who claim to be doing God’s work are. Likewise not all who claim to be worshipping God are giving Him due homage. You disagree; all who do whatever they want are doing God’s work

What was said was Catholics and Muslims believe in one God and Eastern Orthodox Christian another God.
The suggesting being Catholics aren't Christians at all.
Is this your meaning?

No. I believe Catholics and Orthodox worship God. I believe Moslems worship a created being.

[Fr. George]

I think the general tenor is this:

1. Moslems claim to worship the same God as Christians;
2. Their beliefs about their god are so inconsistent with the Orthodox understanding of God that they must be speaking of a different deity - what we believe about our God and what they believe about their god are contradictory, and thus we must be worshipping different gods;
3. The Catholics, however, have said that they worship the same god as the Moslems.  This is unfortunate, considering point #2.

[nikolaos]

I think the general tenor is this:

1. Moslems claim to worship the same God as Christians;
2. Their beliefs about their god are so inconsistent with the Orthodox understanding of God that they must be speaking of a different deity - what we believe about our God and what they believe about their god are contradictory, and thus we must be worshipping different gods;
3. The Catholics, however, have said that they worship the same god as the Moslems.  This is unfortunate, considering point #2.

Good point!

[montalban]

I think the general tenor is this:

1. Moslems claim to worship the same God as Christians;
2. Their beliefs about their god are so inconsistent with the Orthodox understanding of God that they must be speaking of a different deity - what we believe about our God and what they believe about their god are contradictory, and thus we must be worshipping different gods;
3. The Catholics, however, have said that they worship the same god as the Moslems.  This is unfortunate, considering point #2.

Indeed, that is the very heart of the matter; the late Pope sucking-up to Moslems

[Deacon Lance]

Moslems believe in one God.  They believe they worship the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses.    They believe in daily prayer, fasting, alms giving.  All these things are good things. They are in error that do not worship the Trinity or recognize Jesus as God among other things.  I look on Mohammed much like I look on Arius, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, or any other person who takes basic Christian belief and twists it to suit their heresy and parts from the Truth.  They are in error and need the Gosepl.  That said, I don't belive it correct to say they worship a differrent God.  They believe wrongly about Him.  I don't recall during the Arian controversy any Church Father claimed they worshipped a differrent God.  Evangelization should start with points of common belief and practice and then pointing out their error.  How do you hope to evangelize them by approaching them with: "You worship Satan! Now let me enlighten you."?  It is much easier to approach them with: "We worship one God, but Christ and Mohammed have different claims and teachings.  Only one of them can be right."

Fr. Deacon Lance

[The Wolf]

Let us use a metaphor.
There are three chaps. A, B, and C.

C is a fine follow.
A knows C first hand  and understands what he is like.
B knows C only from gossip may up of half truths.
A, and B are talking together and see C in the distance. Both A & B claim some knowledge of C. And so both A & B believe in C, however A’s beliefs about C are correct, and  B’s beliefs about C are incorrect.

In the same way both Christians and Muslims believe in the same God but have different beliefs about God. Muslims have incorrect beliefs made up by Mohammed and Christians have the Truth from the mouth of the Lord.

[montalban]

Moslems believe in one God.

So do Hindus.

 They believe they worship the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses.

They believe Moses, et al were Moslems who gave the same message to the world that Muhammad did. It's akin to the T'ai-ping leader Hong Xiuquan after reading some Chinese translations of the Bible came to the conclusion that he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ. By your argument, he is still worshipping our God regardless of how wrong his interpretation is.

They believe in daily prayer, fasting, alms giving.

So do many other faiths

All these things are good things.

That is false. Nothing is good unto itself. If you don't do things for God, it's not 'good'.

They are in error that do not worship the Trinity or recognize Jesus as God among other things.

They also believe that Muhammad was the best example of a man, and he had sex with a nine year old.
They believe that killing for their god is good.
Their god is also one of deceit
It is NOT just a matter of the form of God (Triune, etc.) Their version of god is the antithesis of God.

I look on Mohammed much like I look on Arius, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell, or any other person who takes basic Christian belief and twists it to suit their heresy and parts from the Truth.

They're not the same. Arius and the others were from the Christian tradition. Your argument is one that by extension means that anyone, no matter who, no matter where who picks up a Bible and comes to any conclusion is a believer of God.

They are in error and need the Gospel.  That said, I don't believe it correct to say they worship a different God.  They believe wrongly about Him.

There's a better comparison at
http://www.answering-islam.org/lovesus.html
or
http://www.answering-islam.org/God/character.html

I don't recall during the Arian controversy any Church Father claimed they worshipped a different God.  Evangelization should start with points of common belief and practice and then pointing out their error.  How do you hope to evangelize them by approaching them with: "You worship Satan! Now let me enlighten you."?  It is much easier to approach them with: "We worship one God, but Christ and Mohammed have different claims and teachings.  Only one of them can be right."

Fr. Deacon Lance

In summary.
Nothing is of itself good.
Other religions also believe in one God, prayer, etc.
Jesus Himself said those are not with me are against me. He also said "Not all who cry Lord! Lord! will be saved"
They are not of the Judeo-Christian tradition; allowing for anyone outside the tradition to come to some kind of wrong conclusion, but say that they're still worshipping the same God (albeit in a false way) is too odd to countenance.

In short the difference is between me saying King John was a king of England and you saying King John was a patch of brown liquid I discovered under my chair last night. Your argument is that we both believe in King John, only one of us is wrong.

[montalban]

Let us use a metaphor.
There are three chaps. A, B, and C.

C is a fine follow.
A knows C first hand  and understands what he is like.
B knows C only from gossip may up of half truths.
A, and B are talking together and see C in the distance. Both A & B claim some knowledge of C. And so both A & B believe in C, however A’s beliefs about C are correct, and ÂÂ B’s beliefs about C are incorrect.

In the same way both Christians and Muslims believe in the same God but have different beliefs about God. Muslims have incorrect beliefs made up by Mohammed and Christians have the Truth from the mouth of the Lord.

No, a better metaphor is that they call a created evil being a god, and then claim that this is the same God we believe in, and Catholics accept it.

See link in above post that shows that their idea of a god and ours are not simply a matter that they don't believe in Jesus, or the Trinity

[The Wolf]

Indeed, that is the very heart of the matter; the late Pope sucking-up to Moslems

Alternatively, looked at from another point of view loving his neighbour. Helping to over come hostility and misunderstanding in order to pave the way for Muslims to be able to see Christianity without blinkers on and thereby come to the light of Christianity.
Is this not a good thing?
Is anyone helped by maintaining enmity?   

[montalban]

Alternatively, looked at from another point of view loving his neighbour. Helping to over come hostility and misunderstanding in order to pave the way for Muslims to be able to see Christianity without blinkers on and thereby come to the light of Christianity.

One can't love one's neighbour by telling them lies, and even lying to oneself.

Is this not a good thing?
Is anyone helped by maintaining enmity?   

Recognising Islam for what it is doesn't bother me. Muhammed molested a nine year old child, and Moslems think he's the best example of a man ever.

[The Wolf]

I have read the Koran I understand what Muslims believe and have said that it is incorrect.
Why make up some great scheme about other Gods?

I think you might like this link;
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

[Anastasios]

Deacon Lance,

Joseph Smith believed in the same God as us and came from a Christian tradition? I beg to differ. He was a Gnostic.  His hierarchical Gods theory was very similar to the Gnostic pleroma.

While I certainly agree with you that telling people right off the bat that they worship Satan is not a good idea, I think that we have to be honest with people that they are not worshipping God, even if they think they are, if their conception of him is so different as to make him utterly different from what we know him to be.  Arius and other Christian heretics were often called atheists in fact by the Fathers because by their heresy they ceased to have communion with God, and hence to know him.  Knowing God is more than having the right facts; it's having a relationship with him.  Are there pious Muslims that don't know any better and upon whom God will perhaps show mercy? I believe so.  But that doesn't mean we can extrapolate anything pertaining to the Muslim system as a whole, as Pope John Paul II and others did.

Anastasios

[The Wolf]

Did you know that Mohammed thought the Christian Trinity was God the Father, Jesus the Son, and Mary the Mother?
So easy to prove the Mohammed made it up himself.

The Koran.
5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?


  Just thought I post the reference. LOL

[Anastasios]

Alternatively, looked at from another point of view loving his neighbour. Helping to over come hostility and misunderstanding in order to pave the way for Muslims to be able to see Christianity without blinkers on and thereby come to the light of Christianity.
Is this not a good thing?
Is anyone helped by maintaining enmity?   

I agree with you that we should do everything in our power to break down barriers.  I used to regularly talk to Muslims at school and get to know them better, etc.  I really like Arab culture and Indian culture.  I enjoy a lot of aspects of these people in a true sense.  I show them respect and offer them friendship.  I have even been known to compare certain aspects of Islam and Christianity like fasting, etc.  But if asked, I will be very clear that I believe the only solution is for them to be baptized.  And they respect me for my honesty and clarity.

Anastasios

[The Wolf]

The Koran.
5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?

  Just thought I post the reference. LOL

[Sloga]

I do not understand once concept of Islam. They achknowledge Jesus as a prophet but not as God. What Kind of prophet of God would lie about being the Son of God???

[montalban]

I have read the Koran I understand what Muslims believe and have said that it is incorrect.
Why make up some great scheme about other Gods?

I think you might like this link;
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

I am aware of the annotated Koran. The annotated Bible component of that site I ignore.

The main problem I have with the Catholic apology for Moslem belief is it is the beginning of a tacit recognition of Islam as legitimately coming from the Judeo-Christian tradition; and they don't... given the fact that their notion of God is the opposite of ours; theirs being evil, vindictive, un-forgiving, prone to rage etc.

Although they might be descendant from Abraham, the line of prophets went through a different line.

[montalban]

I do not understand once concept of Islam. They achknowledge Jesus as a prophet but not as God. What Kind of prophet of God would lie about being the Son of God???

Not only that, whereas we believe Jesus was killed (and then rose again), Moslems deny even this happened. And they make their god out to be a deceiver because he 'caused' the people to believe Jesus had died (i.e. he tricked them).

Surah  An-Nisa
Ayah [157]      
  And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

They even state that Al-lah out-plotted/schemed those who intended to kill Jesus.

Surah  Al-'Imran
Ayah [54]      
  And they (disbelievers) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus)], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners.

[Anastasios]

I do not understand once concept of Islam. They achknowledge Jesus as a prophet but not as God. What Kind of prophet of God would lie about being the Son of God???

Out of fairness, they claim St Paul is the liar and that Jesus never said these things.  The best way to answer their claims is to show that St Paul is the reason we have a Gospel, and that you can't separate the Gospel from Paul.  There is no pre-Pauline tradition that he corrupted; no, you can't find anything beneath or behind Paul because his work was the Gospel itself.

Anastasios

[montalban]

Out of fairness, they claim St Paul is the liar and that Jesus never said these things.  The best way to answer their claims is to show that St Paul is the reason we have a Gospel, and that you can't separate the Gospel from Paul.  There is no pre-Pauline tradition that he corrupted; no, you can't find anything beneath or behind Paul because his work was the Gospel itself.

Anastasios

Straw-man argument exists in the Koran, too, where they re-construct the Christian understanding of the Trinity (even after the Trinity was well defined). They state that Christians believe in Father, Son and Holy Mother (obviously their god al-lah couldn't even tell what Christians actually believe). And then they argue against this false construction.

[JoeS]

First of all as an Orthodox Christian and from what I have seen so far of Islamic religion I would NOT want to believe in the same God as they do.  And as far as I am concerned we dont believe in the same God.

[montalban]

First of all as an Orthodox Christian and from what I have seen so far of Islamic religion I would NOT want to believe in the same God as they do.  And as far as I am concerned we dont believe in the same God.

I agree, their ideas (Islam's) of good and evil are the opposite of Christian ideas.

[francis-christopher]

In nomine Ieus I offer you all Peace,

I have spent several years in dialogue with Muslims apologists and I can say that they are very challenging opponents. We must be skilled in both Sacred Scripture and Tradition in order to defend our faith and articulate it with any possibility of eliciting conversion. Of course when those few do convert they are under a death sentence and even if such a sentence isn’t carried out with any real sense of seriousness they are completely cut off from their culture and families.

Last year I had the pleasure of witnessing the Baptism of a Muslim woman who married a Catholic man at our Parish and through her formation we all had an opportunity to share her lose of family and Muslim friends in Jordan and the real alienation such separation creates. I am prayerful that our Parish continue to give her the compassion and friendship those loses made in her life and in your identity as with give praise and thanksgiving for the life gained in Christ. Amen.

Catholics in the Middle-east are doing the 'real' Work of God my Christian friends and that work starts with ecumenical dialogue.

[montalban]

I have spent several years in dialogue with Muslims apologists and I can say that they are very challenging opponents. We must be skilled in both Sacred Scripture and Tradition in order to defend our faith and articulate it with any possibility of eliciting conversion. Of course when those few do convert they are under a death sentence and even if such a sentence isn’t carried out with any real sense of seriousness they are completely cut off from their culture and families.

Last year I had the pleasure of witnessing the Baptism of a Muslim woman who married a Catholic man at our Parish and through her formation we all had an opportunity to share her lose of family and Muslim friends in Jordan and the real alienation such separation creates. I am prayerful that our Parish continue to give her the compassion and friendship those loses made in her life and in your identity as with give praise and thanksgiving for the life gained in Christ. Amen.

Moslem to Catholic. That's a step in the right direction  

[francis-christopher]

Moslem to Catholic. That's a step in the right direction ÂÂ

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued Peace,

I personally welcome any and all involvment in ecumenical dialogue with Muslims by our Orthodox Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Truly such joint efforts would be helpful although I have not met any who are active in the Middle-east. Could you share with me any Orthodox missionaries which are active in or around Jordan?

[montalban]

I personally welcome any and all involvment in ecumenical dialogue with Muslims by our Orthodox Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Truly such joint efforts would be helpful although I have not met any who are active in the Middle-east. Could you share with me any Orthodox missionaries which are active in or around Jordan?

I have no problem in engaging Moslems in dialogue. The problems rest elsewhere, not least that they themselves are told in the Koran that Christians are out to lie to them.

If you mention a truth about Islam, such as Muhammed had sex with a nine year old you can be accused in this country (Australia) of slandering a minority, or in a Moslem nation of 'insulting the prophet'. There's very little opportunity for open and honest dialogue.

[francis-christopher]

I have no problem in engaging Moslems in dialogue. The problems rest elsewhere, not least that they themselves are told in the Koran that Christians are out to lie to them.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued Peace Brother,

Truly my friend what you say is true but I am here to tell you that dialogue is possible and at times profitable for Christ's Church. The Qur’an is a carefully orchestrated refutation of the orthodox Christian Faith with heavy influences by Gnostic heresies which surely played a role in influencing Abdullah Muhammad’s religious doctrine.

If you mention a truth about Islam, such as Muhammed had sex with a nine year old you can be accused in this country (Australia) of slandering a minority, or in a Moslem nation of 'insulting the prophet'. There's very little opportunity for open and honest dialogue.

I have found it ‘most’ profitable to spend one’s time addressing Muslim questions concerning Christianity not attacking their ‘prophet’. Let such attacks come from within once the true ‘light of Christ’ begins to reveal the errors. Let it be God’s work not our work. This is the right way of Christian apologetics. Focus on building not destroying. Anyone can destroy but only He can build that which is everlasting. Islam is a great wound in the side of Arabic culture and some are truly ready to be healed. They are the truly desert flowers.

[montalban]

You say some wise things here, but we still don't worship the same God (Moslems and Christians)

[francis-christopher]

You say some wise things here, but we still don't worship the same God (Moslems and Christians)

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued Peace Brother montalban,

I appreciate your kindness here but I think we are getting our threads crossed at this time. Perhaps this is how it should be since our conversation has largely been about Islam and not the Late John Paul II.

Unfortunately dear Brother it is very late where I live now and I most be off to sleep but I promise to address this further with you. I am very interested in dialoguing with you further on this matter and I will once I have so sleep.

For now Pardon me and May God's Mercy and Peace fall upon you as rain. Amen.

[montalban]

I appreciate your kindness here but I think we are getting our threads crossed at this time. Perhaps this is how it should be since our conversation has largely been about Islam and not the Late John Paul II.

Unfortunately dear Brother it is very late where I live now and I most be off to sleep but I promise to address this further with you. I am very interested in dialoguing with you further on this matter and I will once I have so sleep.

For now Pardon me and May God's Mercy and Peace fall upon you as rain. Amen.

Well, this is a thread about Islam as voiced by late Pope John Paul II