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Author Topic: Love towards JPII  (Read 1749 times) Average Rating: 0
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Armando
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« on: March 05, 2006, 08:49:43 AM »

First of all, the quote on the signature of my profile is not a claim to
Papal Supermacy but a reminder that the truth is somewhere between
the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox. As for the personalised
picture, it is the reason I am posting this.

I have yet to decide where I want to belong. Sometimes I choose
the Catholic Church and other times the Orthodox. But even if
I turn Orthodox I have to say I will never stop admiring, loving
and considering Pope John Paul the Great, a Saint of the One,
Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Is this wrong? Of course,
by saying it is I cannot possibly change my mind since he is
exactly what a Saint would be like.
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2006, 09:32:43 AM »

Armando,
Forgive me a sinner,
I remember when I became Orthodox I had a lot of trouble in oscillating between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  I loved Orthodoxy, but there were so many trappings in Catholicism.  Although, I do not think JPII deserves the title great and I disagreed with him on many issues (although, not personally.  I wasn't that special!  Wink ), I do think he is a good man.  Same thing about Padre Pio.  I do not know where they are today, but I harbour no resentment against them.  However, I also acknowledge that they were not part of the Orthodox Church cannocially.  Now, I have no desire to return to present Rome (and if I do I just step into the first five minutes of a Mass and that cures it), but for a long time it was very hard for me.  My suggestion is, go to as many Orthodox services as available.  You are in Greece, yes?  Then there should be little excuse for not doing so, especially in the plethora of Lenten services that are about to occur.  Finally, in Orthodoxy, just stick with it and get a spiritual advisor, or even a lay mentor, and go to.  He can help you better than we can.  And finally, remember, just because your are Orthodox doesn't mean you should stop loving John Paul II or anyone else for that matter.  Rather, it means that you should love them even more, with their ups and downs.  Just aslo remember, love is not always cow-eyed, kumbaya my Lord, but is also tough love.
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2006, 05:01:17 PM »

Armando,
Forgive me a sinner,
I remember when I became Orthodox I had a lot of trouble in oscillating between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.  I loved Orthodoxy, but there were so many trappings in Catholicism.  Although, I do not think JPII deserves the title great and I disagreed with him on many issues (although, not personally.  I wasn't that special!  Wink ), I do think he is a good man.  Same thing about Padre Pio.  I do not know where they are today, but I harbour no resentment against them.  However, I also acknowledge that they were not part of the Orthodox Church cannocially.  Now, I have no desire to return to present Rome (and if I do I just step into the first five minutes of a Mass and that cures it), but for a long time it was very hard for me.  My suggestion is, go to as many Orthodox services as available.  You are in Greece, yes?  Then there should be little excuse for not doing so, especially in the plethora of Lenten services that are about to occur.  Finally, in Orthodoxy, just stick with it and get a spiritual advisor, or even a lay mentor, and go to.  He can help you better than we can.  And finally, remember, just because your are Orthodox doesn't mean you should stop loving John Paul II or anyone else for that matter.  Rather, it means that you should love them even more, with their ups and downs.  Just aslo remember, love is not always cow-eyed, kumbaya my Lord, but is also tough love.


As a former RC myself, this was nicely stated.'

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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 06:25:36 AM »

First of all, the quote on the signature of my profile is not a claim to
Papal Supermacy but a reminder that the truth is somewhere between
the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox. As for the personalised
picture, it is the reason I am posting this.

I have yet to decide where I want to belong. Sometimes I choose
the Catholic Church and other times the Orthodox. But even if
I turn Orthodox I have to say I will never stop admiring, loving
and considering Pope John Paul the Great, a Saint of the One,
Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Is this wrong? Of course,
by saying it is I cannot possibly change my mind since he is
exactly what a Saint would be like.

I too am a former RC. The truth is fully within Orthodoxy, which is the one holy catholic* and apostolic church.

I don't mean to sound nasty, but I had no time for JPII (I saw him - when I was a Catholic, in 1986 when he visited Sydney). He stated that Moslems worship the same God which I don't believe at all; Muhammed's message is not of God.

*Catholic when it was first used in a Christian context meant complete - which the Western church changed to mean 'universal'.
[Middle English catholik, universally accepted, from Old French catholique, from Latin catholicus, universal, from Greek katholikos, from katholou, in general  : kat-, kata-, down, along, according to; see cata- + holou(from neuter genitive of holos, whole. See sol- in Indo-European Roots).]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=catholic
It thus means 'from the whole' or 'complete'. This is more easily recognised when we look to see where the term was first used...It first appears in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
"Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop.
 
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid"
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-21.htm#P2123_357530
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2006, 02:21:59 PM »

There is nothing wrong with having issues/differences with Church Hierarchy...St. Paul had them with St. Peter and yada yada yada, each church leader is called for a specific mission-s...blessed Pope John Paul II was a travelling evangelizer and a force against communism and other persecutions...but still a human and prone to weaknesses just as St. Peter and others, including us.

I tend to think of his positives...which to me out weigh the negatives.

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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2006, 02:46:26 PM »

Interesting views expressed here.

I must say that it was the pontifcate of John Paull II that ultimately pushed me into Orthodoxy. I knew Truth had to exist and he allowed me to find it in Holy Orthodoxy. It certainly wasn't in the Novus Ordo Missae!

John Paul's theology was at best mystical, at its worst nebulous. His intimacies with the clearly heterodox I found distressing, his alienation of traditional catholics I found baffling.

John Paul II was a creation of the media. A superstar without substance. Photogenic and congenial....therefore harmless and politically correct. Oh yeah, the media could overlook some of his more distasteful positions like his pro-life stance....after all, he was the kindly old uncle we were glad who showed up on holidays. So what if he had a few quirks.

John Paul the Great? Hardly.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 02:47:37 PM by Carpatho-Rusyn » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 03:41:10 AM »

There is nothing wrong with having issues/differences with Church Hierarchy...St. Paul had them with St. Peter and yada yada yada, each church leader is called for a specific mission-s...blessed Pope John Paul II was a travelling evangelizer and a force against communism and other persecutions...but still a human and prone to weaknesses just as St. Peter and others, including us.

I tend to think of his positives...which to me out weigh the negatives.

james

From an Orthodox perspective his 'weaknesses' (as you put them) were many;
'Dedicating' a mission against Russia (even after the fall of communism, whilst at the same time proclaiming peace towards Orthodoxy was one of these.
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2006, 10:38:54 PM »

In nomine Ieus I offer you all Peace,

I engage in a great deal of 'dialogue' with Muslims over the last four or five years and in that time I have meet some whom are extremely spiritual and in fact bear the 'fruit of true peace and deep charity' that I can only attribute to the inner work of the Holy Spirit. We one encounters such 'individuals' one can only have two reactions 'deep respect and love' or 'resentment' as one struggles to articulate a rationale why he or she is 'not as they appear'.

Because of these encounters I come to recognize that the late John Paul II was merely being honest when speaking of the remarkable 'individuals' throughout the world one can encounter in many faiths. Truly such is not always the case and truly one can argue that such maybe special cases or unique individuals but one cannot ignore or discard the encounters with grace one has with these individuals of other faiths.

So please forgive me if I don't share you chevalier attitude toward other faiths or your blanket assessments of their lack of salvific grace.

Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. — Romans 2:9-11

If such was the case for Jews, under the Law, and Greeks, without the Law, does that not suggest that God is without partiality? Is the New Covenant a license for vice? If it is not I dare say my dear Christian Brothers and Sisters that we should be so happy as to share the same aversion to sin which I have encountered among Muslims and orthodox Jews.

It is perhaps easy for us to chat with a certain sense of philosophical superiority with our fellow monotheists but I dare to offer a serious caution to us least we turn our freedom into an opportunity for the flesh and thus lose any merit found within it.

Sancta Maria immaculate concepta, ora pro nobis. Amen.
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2006, 10:58:24 PM »

I will never stop admiring, loving
and considering Pope John Paul the Great, a Saint of the One,
Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

God forgive me, but I attempt not to hate a single soul, but he will forever fall in my small list of individuals. Perhaps and most likely, you wont and can't understand why I feel the way I do about him, but if you knew everything I knew for 10 seconds, you would feel the same way I do, for the rest of your life. I wont go into detail, but Orthodox-Catholic reconciliation was only further gappened by him...atleast in the Balkans. You can probabally guess, but im referring to him that he had something to do with the Yugoslav conflict...which is true. Have you ever fallen in Love with someone and thought you would love them forever and then too find something out about them, to have your feelings crushed?
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2006, 11:00:41 PM »


I engage in a great deal of 'dialogue' with Muslims over the last four or five years and in that time I have meet some whom are extremely spiritual and in fact bear the 'fruit of true peace and deep charity' that I can only attribute to the inner work of the Holy Spirit. We one encounters such 'individuals' one can only have two reactions 'deep respect and love' or 'resentment' as one struggles to articulate a rationale why he or she is 'not as they appear'.

Because of these encounters I come to recognize that the late John Paul II was merely being honest when speaking of the remarkable 'individuals' throughout the world one can encounter in many faiths. Truly such is not always the case and truly one can argue that such maybe special cases or unique individuals but one cannot ignore or discard the encounters with grace one has with these individuals of other faiths.

So please forgive me if I don't share you chevalier attitude toward other faiths or your blanket assessments of their lack of salvific grace.

Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. — Romans 2:9-11

If such was the case for Jews, under the Law, and Greeks, without the Law, does that not suggest that God is without partiality? Is the New Covenant a license for vice? If it is not I dare say my dear Christian Brothers and Sisters that we should be so happy as to share the same aversion to sin which I have encountered among Muslims and orthodox Jews.

It is perhaps easy for us to chat with a certain sense of philosophical superiority with our fellow monotheists but I dare to offer a serious caution to us least we turn our freedom into an opportunity for the flesh and thus lose any merit found within it.


It is easy to mistake counterfeit spirituality for real spirituality. When one talks of Islam, the 'ideal' man for Moslems is one who had intercourse with a child, who oversaw the killing of PoWs, who applauded political killings.
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2006, 11:29:28 PM »

It is easy to mistake counterfeit spirituality for real spirituality. When one talks of Islam, the 'ideal' man for Moslems is one who had intercourse with a child, who oversaw the killing of PoWs, who applauded political killings.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued Peace,

Truly my friend I bare you no ill-will but our Lord Jesus Christ instructed us to ‘judge them by their fruits’ not by the location from where these fruits are grown. If our Heavenly Father could draw Sons of Abraham for pebbles surely he could draw them from the errors of Abdullah Muhammad. So although I recognize your valid criticism Brother please exercise the discernment to no judge all Muslims by the source from which it has grow. Truly my Christian Brother we as followers of our Lord Christ Jesus must treat every soul as a unique individual blessed with the true hope of union with Him. Know them by their fruit.

When we do as our Lord has taught us we see individuals by the virtue or vice in which they truly live with no partiality just as God exercises no partiality.

Like I said before my Brother-in-Christ when we encounter these remarkable 'desert flowers' we can only have two reactions "deep respect and love' or 'resentment and rejection' as one struggles to articulate a rationale why they are 'not what they seem'. I ask you Brother to exercise discernment in your judgement of others and where we find true 'goodness' we find 'God's favor'.

I leave you with these words to reflect upon because I humbly feel you are prejudging individuals by philosophic disagreements and not but the true fruits of their lives lived in faith to God. To attempt to direct this thread back on course my original statement was intended to give example as to why I for one appreciate and recognize the position the Late John Paul II held toward Jews, Muslims and in a certain sense Buddhist.

Do we have philosophical disagreements with these individual faith? Of course we do and in certain areas of the globe we are in bitter struggles with some of these groups but let us be clear that virtue is to be recognized and respected as a life in accord with God's moral compass and perhaps such lives do so from true salvific grace from our Lord Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2006, 12:17:01 AM »

Truly my friend I bare you no ill-will but our Lord Jesus Christ instructed us to ‘judge them by their fruits’ not by the location from where these fruits are grown.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If our Heavenly Father could draw Sons of Abraham for pebbles surely he could draw them from the errors of Abdullah Muhammad.
I agree that Moslems can be good, DESPITE Islam. You're saying that they worship the same God.
So although I recognize your valid criticism Brother please exercise the discernment to no judge all Muslims by the source from which it has grow. Truly my Christian Brother we as followers of our Lord Christ Jesus must treat every soul as a unique individual blessed with the true hope of union with Him. Know them by their fruit.
...
Given that their example of behaviour is to follow an evil man, then there is no good behind Islam.
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2006, 12:32:24 AM »

Antipope JPII taught that all people are saved now (ie not just in a future apocostasis) regardless of faith in Christ; albeit through the Incarnation; the grace of which is mediated through other religions. He is a heretic. VatI said that the pope is infallible "when" speaking ex cathedra; and at no other time. So he can become a heretic otherwise. This is the position of all Roman Catholic theologians prior to VatI; and the opinion of most afterwards. All theologians have said that a heretic cannot be pope, because one cannot be the head of that which he is not also a member of, so when he becomes a heretic he looses his office as pope.

St Robert Bellarmine, De Romano Pontifice II 30:
"A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction."

St Antoninus: "In the case in which the pope would become a heretic, he would find himself, by that fact alone and without any other sentence, separated from the Church.  A head separated from a body cannot, as long as it remains separated, be head of the same body from which it was cut off.  A pope who would be separated from the Church by heresy, therefore, would by that very fact itself cease to be head of the Church.  He could not be a heretic and remain pope, because, since he is outside of the Church, he cannot possess the keys of the Church." (Summa Theologica, cited in Actes de Vatican I. V. Frond pub.)

St Alphonsus, Bishop and Doctor of the Church: “If ever a Pope, as a private person, should fall into heresy, he would at once fall from the Pontificate.” (Oeuvres Complètes. 9:232)

St Francis De Sales, The Catholic Controversy, p 305-306 : "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church..."

The one exception to the princple prima sedes a nemine iudicatur (the first see cannot be judged by anyone) is nisi devius a fide deprehendatur (except when he is convicted of deviation from the faith). It is the obligation of the faithful to depose the pope when he falls into heresy. He is stripped of all rights. Granted some theologians, including Garrigou-Lagrange, have postulated that a false pope can still act as administrator, and if he is functioning as such, it might be beneficial to follow his direction in issues not pertaining to faith. But he is still not pope.

Please see the post in "Faith Issues" about JPII's involvement at Assisi.

LOL, good thing I am not a Traditional Roman Catholic, because then I would have to go to a legalistic and papistic Sedevacant or SSPX church. I believe that the Catholic and Orthodox churches constitute the One True Church; though the fullness of faith is found in the Orthodox church. This means that I do not have to believe the VatI dogma. Praise be to Jesus Christ! Your Church is Immaculate, even if the Roman pope is a heretic, for the Episcopate remains. Glory to God in the Highest!

PaulRomuald

« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 12:45:24 AM by romuald » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2006, 12:43:00 AM »

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

In nomine Ieus I offer you continued Peace,

If you don't mind me asking Brother are you perhaps an Orthodox Convert?

Quote
I agree that Moslems can be good, DESPITE Islam. You're saying that they worship the same God. Given that their example of behaviour is to follow an evil man, then there is no good behind Islam.

If we worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then truly we worship the 'same' God as the Jews and the Muslims. Please dear Brother don't mistake the fact that Muslims have a skewed understanding of God for a different God for it is the 'same' God only viewed through a lens which distorts and hinders their ability to comprehend the Trinity. Amen.

This is an important distinction that one must reach before 'real' dialogue can be achieved.
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2006, 01:11:41 AM »

Antipope JPII taught that all people are saved now (ie not just in a future apocostasis) regardless of faith in Christ; albeit through the Incarnation; the grace of which is mediated through other religions. He is a heretic. VatI said that the pope is infallible "when" speaking ex cathedra; and at no other time. So he can become a heretic otherwise. This is the position of all Roman Catholic theologians prior to VatI; and the opinion of most afterwards. All theologians have said that a heretic cannot be pope, because one cannot be the head of that which he is not also a member of, so when he becomes a heretic he looses his office as pope.

In nomine Ieus I offer you Peace,

If by 'now' you mean in that eternal now which is the proper domain of God Almighty then I too agree with the Late John Paul II's statement but I doubt such was ever articulated as 'regardless' of Christ's Death. Whither Christ's Salvific Death operates outside cognitive ascent of the mind of the individual appears to be the question under scrutiny by your post. While I too believe such questions are deeply challenging ones I don’t ultimately limit the effectual work of Christ’s Grace nor am I willing to restrain His Church (His Body) within ‘any’ physical institution or institutions as the case may be.

Such was the real hope of the Late John Paul II. Such hope, such trust in God’s Providence is at once challenging and scandalous to many. It is my hope that God’s Mercy will be shocking to us all. Anything less would not be ‘as looking through a glass darkly’.
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2006, 01:14:49 AM »

If you don't mind me asking Brother are you perhaps an Orthodox Convert?
Probably something best for PMs
If we worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then truly we worship the 'same' God as the Jews and the Muslims. Please dear Brother don't mistake the fact that Muslims have a skewed understanding of God for a different God for it is the 'same' God only viewed through a lens which distorts and hinders their ability to comprehend the Trinity. Amen.

This is an important distinction that one must reach before 'real' dialogue can be achieved.
It's not just that they have a skewed understanding of God. They also have on the 'prophets' such as Moses; whom they claim to be a Moslem.

Further they don't just deny the Trinity, to them al-lah was a god that deceives people. There's a great comparison at this site...
http://www.answering-islam.org/God/character.html

If someone comes up to you in the street and tells you that they've read the Bible and that they've worked out that God is a small second-hand car salesman who lives in the High Street in Bromley (England), then you might believe that they worship the same god too?

It might seem a strange analogy to make, so I'll give you a real example from history.  Hong Xiuquan was a bloke in China in the mid-1800s. He'd read some slithers of Bible verses that'd been translated into Chinese. He came to the revelation that he was Jesus Christ's younger brother. He lead a revolution that became the largest/bloodiest civil war in world history (known as the Taiping Rebellion (also spelled T'ai-ping)). By your reckoning the mere fact he based his beliefs on the Bible, he worshipped the same God as we do.

But as I've noted, and as you've ignored, their concepts of good and evil are topsy-turvy. They believe that killing non-believers is good. They believe killing yourself (and taking out a number of non-believers) assures your place in heaven - with 70+ virgins)
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