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Author Topic: Nostra Aetate: Catholics and Moslems believe in the same god  (Read 7372 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 14, 2006, 06:37:33 AM »

Nostra Aetate

"3. Islam
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,5 who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam is gladly linked, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, his virgin mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. Moreover, they look forward to the day of judgement when God will render their deserts to all those raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting."
http://www.j-cinstitute.org/ChurchStatements/Roman_Catholic_Nostra_Aetate1.htm
also cited
http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ec21na.htm

"The church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God.."
http://www.usccb.org/seia/brunett.htm
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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2006, 06:39:42 AM »

*Sigh*

They just don't get it.
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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2006, 10:00:10 PM »

*Sigh*

They just don't get it.

I don't understand what they think that's in Islam that makes it so. There you have a 'prophet' who kept changing his mind, having intercourse with a child, over-seeing the execution of PoWs, applauding the murder of people who made witty poems about him, etc.

They 'claim' to follow the same God, but as Jesus said, "not all who cry 'Lord! Lord!' will be saved"
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2006, 08:50:43 AM »

I'm glad to hear they think that the moslems believe in the same God... so apparently their god is two-faced, since he says in one instance to love one another, and in another to kill the Christians.  If this is the case, then it's we who don't believe in the same god as the Catholics and the Moslems.
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2006, 09:16:54 AM »

then it's we who don't believe in the same god as the Catholics and the Moslems.

This is increasingly becoming my opinion...
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2006, 09:20:00 AM »

It is the only logical conclusion to the statement...
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2006, 01:16:47 PM »

What about the above do you disagree with other than the esteem part?  The Muslims believe in the God of Abraham.  They believe incorrectly about Him as do the Jews and basically everyone that isn't Christian.  And even within Christendom are those who don't believe correctly, are we to believe they worship a different God as well?

Notice the documents says it esteems Muslims, i.e people,  and their beliefs and practices in as much as they reflect Christian belief (monotheism) and practice (daily prayer, fasting almsgiving).  If one is going to convert a Muslim would you not approach him and point out the similarities of our beliefs before you discuss the differences?  Otherwise on what basis are you going to have a dialogue with him.  telling him he is a demon worshipper and damned to hell certainly isn't going to get you very far.
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2006, 01:59:22 PM »

Quote
The Muslims believe in the God of Abraham.  They believe incorrectly about Him as do the Jews and basically everyone that isn't Christian.

Jews do not worship the God of Abraham.  They rejected Him on Great Friday.  The Trinity is the God of Abraham.  
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2006, 02:26:01 PM »

Quote
If one is going to convert a Muslim would you not approach him and point out the similarities of our beliefs before you discuss the differences? Otherwise on what basis are you going to have a dialogue with him.

In the real world, purporting that Muslims have the same God as the Christians, does much more harm to Christianity than it does good (if any at all). The statements in question in actual fact back-fire in their attempt to achieve the above stipulated goal; this is because the fact of the matter is that this lie (i.e. that Muslims worship the same God) actually gives them and their apologists a basis to have dialogue with us (as opposed to the other way around) - it is doctrinally relevant to them. It gives credence to the Quranic argument that Islam is simply the next logical step in the progressive revelation that gave rise to Judaism and then Christianity, such that their God is the God we have believed in since the beginning, and Muhammed is simply another prophet in a line of prophets, who has come to correct certain misconceptions that have arisen over time concerning this one true God, just as Christ did amongst the Jews. Consequently you get conversions to Islam, and not the other way around; I have seen it happen.

Quote
telling him he is a demon worshipper and damned to hell certainly isn't going to get you very far.


How about you avoid both extremes?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 02:30:00 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2006, 04:05:54 PM »

Quote
Jews do not worship the God of Abraham.  They rejected Him on Great Friday.  

Every Jew? For all time? Even the ones that weren't there? Even a Chinese or Indian or Yemeni Jew, or a modern young hip Israeli Jew in Tel Aviv, who has only the vaguest idea of what Christianity is?
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« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2006, 06:38:06 PM »

I'm glad to hear they think that the moslems believe in the same God... so apparently their god is two-faced, since he says in one instance to love one another, and in another to kill the Christians.

Muslims are not taught to kill Christians either by the Quran or by the Hadith of Muhammed. Christians are not taught to tell lies about Muslims either but some do don't they?


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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2006, 06:49:36 PM »

Muslims are not taught to kill Christians either by the Quran or by the Hadith of Muhammed. Christians are not taught to tell lies about Muslims either but some do don't they?

Choose not friends from them [unbelievers]. ... Take them and kill them wherever ye find them.--4:89

Take them [unbelivers] and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.--4:91

The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.--5:33

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.--5:51

And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.--5:14

And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!--9:30
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2006, 07:48:33 PM »

Muslims are not taught to kill Christians either by the Quran or by the Hadith of Muhammed. Christians are not taught to tell lies about Muslims either but some do don't they?

GiC beat me to it, but I would personally like to add something.

It gives me more faith as a Christian to see that there are moderate Muslims who turn a blind eye to the deeds of Mohammed and what is written in the Quran that terrorists/fundamentalists stay faithful to.  It just confirms what St. Paul said in the epistle to the Romans about the inner law in every human being.

God bless.

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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2006, 07:12:31 AM »

What about the above do you disagree with other than the esteem part?  The Muslims believe in the God of Abraham.  They believe incorrectly about Him as do the Jews and basically everyone that isn't Christian.  And even within Christendom are those who don't believe correctly, are we to believe they worship a different God as well?
The Muslim idea of god is one of a being who, although 'all-powerful' and a 'creator' (concepts we believe) is still vastly different from God.

Al-lah is a deceiver. His chief apostle, Muhammed celibarated the murder of PoWs, and the execution of people who made up witty poems about him. And Moslems hold this man as the most ideal of men who ever lived.

A good summation of the differences is at this (boo-hiss!) Protestant site...

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/god.htm

Notice the documents says it esteems Muslims, i.e people,  and their beliefs and practices in as much as they reflect Christian belief (monotheism) and practice (daily prayer, fasting almsgiving).  If one is going to convert a Muslim would you not approach him and point out the similarities of our beliefs before you discuss the differences?  Otherwise on what basis are you going to have a dialogue with him.  telling him he is a demon worshipper and damned to hell certainly isn't going to get you very far.

You mean we should tell them that believing in an evil being such as al-lah is okay?
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 07:20:55 AM »

Muslims are not taught to kill Christians either by the Quran or by the Hadith of Muhammed. Christians are not taught to tell lies about Muslims either but some do don't they?




Moslems are told to slay non-believers/make them submit to Islam. Moslems are told that Jews and Christians are liars, and that one shouldn't have us as close friends.

As for the later point...
The Koran says
 Surah  Al-'Imran
Ayah [118]      
  O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.  

Surah  Al-Ma'idah
Ayah [51]      
  O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).  

Surah  Al-Mumtahinah
Ayah [13]      
  O you who believe! Take not as friends the people who incurred the Wrath of Allah (i.e. the Jews). Surely, they have been in despair to receive any good in the Hereafter, just as the disbelievers have been in despair about those (buried) in graves (that they will not be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection).  

It is not permissible for a Muslim man or woman to take a male or female friend who is not a Muslim, because Allaah has forbidden us to love the kuffaar or take them as close friends and companions
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=69876&dgn=4
 
It is permissible for you to let your aunt stay with you so that you can call her to Islam and encourage her with wisdom and beautiful preaching, If she sees you and your good attitude and kind treatment, that may be a means of opening her heart to this great religion. Attitude and actions may often be more eloquent than words and preaching. So strive hard to do that, and if Allaah guides her at your hands, that will be better for you than this world and everything in it.  
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=70219&dgn=4
 
Question :
In the Quraan, it says that we can not take the Kuffaar as awliyaa, but what does that mean? I mean, to what degree? Can we do business with them still? If I'm at school, can we play basketball with them? Can we talk to them about basketball and stuff? Can we hang out with them as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves? The reason I ask is because someone I know does hang out with them in this way and it doesn't affect his beliefs, but I still tell him, "Why don't you hang out with the muslims instead?" He says that most or many of the Muslims drink and take drugs where they hang out and they have girlfriends and he's afraid that the sins of the Muslims will lure him, yet he's sure that the Kufr of the Kaafirs will not lure him because that's something that isn't attractive to him. So is hanging out with them, playing sports with them, and talking with them about sports considered as "taking them as awliyaa instead of the believers" keeping in mind that he is doing that for his own eemaan?.
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:  
Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=59879&dgn=4
You're not even considered a 'brother' of a Muslim
"Question: Does not brotherhood extend to all of mankind because it is established that Aadam was the forefather of everyone?
Response: This is not so. There is no doubt that everyone is from the offspring of Aadam but we do not say, "This is my brother," when referring to a disbeliever meaning by that within the brotherhood of man. We can only refer to him as brother when there is a relationship by descent or lineage.
http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000920_5.htm
Although this deals with marriage, the implications of 'mixing' with non-Muslims still arises...
"Question: What is your advice concerning some Muslim minorities marrying disbelieving women who do not believe in the existence of a Creator and what is the effect of that upon the children?
Response: My advice to all Muslims is that they should not marry anyone who is not a Muslim.
http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000822_5.htm


(the comments inside brackets within the Koranic verse are put there by Moslems themselves at quraan.com)
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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2006, 07:21:45 AM »

GiC beat me to it, but I would personally like to add something.

It gives me more faith as a Christian to see that there are moderate Muslims who turn a blind eye to the deeds of Mohammed and what is written in the Quran that terrorists/fundamentalists stay faithful to.  It just confirms what St. Paul said in the epistle to the Romans about the inner law in every human being.

God bless.

Mina
In effect you're saying that Moslems are good despite Islam. I agree with this.
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2006, 07:23:45 AM »

There's so many verses in the Koran urging Moslems to kill in the name of their faith...
"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)
"The believers who stay at home (apart from those that suffer a grave impediment) are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)
"Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)
"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:52:73)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'When the slave runs away from his master, his prayer is not accepted; he is an infidel.'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 32)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'Then go to the persons who do not join the congregational prayer and order their homes to be burnt...'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 234)
"Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 9:83:17)
"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)
"Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)
"Narrated Anas: 'Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet (Muhammed) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794)
 
There is no Islamic equivalent of ‘turn the other cheek’, or ‘blessed are the peacemakers’. What about ‘love thy neighbour’? (Mat 5:43)*
One of the closest texts you’ll find is Sura 8:61
“But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and (put your) trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.”
http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=8
This means, if your enemy has stopped fighting you, and you want to stop fighting, then okay, call a halt to hostilities.
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2006, 07:23:45 AM »

They believe incorrectly about Him as do the Jews and basically everyone that isn't Christian.  And even within Christendom are those who don't believe correctly, are we to believe they worship a different God as well?

Yes, that is exactly right. Example: If I have a blue ball, and call it a brown box, that doesn't change the fact that it is a blue ball. What a person calls God is not the issue, but rather the issue is what they really are worshipping. In fact, beliefs most often do (if not always) define what God a person worships.
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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2006, 07:24:59 AM »

Yes, that is exactly right. Example: If I have a blue ball, and call it a brown box, that doesn't change the fact that it is a blue ball. What a person calls God is not the issue, but rather the issue is what they really are worshipping. In fact, beliefs most often do (if not always) define what God a person worships.
Their idea of god is one who is cruel and deceptive. Their 'ideal' man (Muhammed) had sex with a child. He couldn't even keep his own rules (he had nine wives, not four).
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2006, 07:26:01 AM »

Yes, that is exactly right. Example: If I have a blue ball, and call it a brown box, that doesn't change the fact that it is a blue ball. What a person calls God is not the issue, but rather the issue is what they really are worshipping. In fact, beliefs most often do (if not always) define what God a person worships.

I also draw your attention to post #14 of this thread.
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2006, 07:53:52 AM »

I also draw your attention to post #14 of this thread.

Oh, indeed. Even more proof we worship a different God!
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2006, 08:56:23 AM »

We do worship a different God than they - now, this is not the way we would approach them in conversation about it, especially if we're concerned about their salvation!  We must be pastoral if we are to talk to them about our faith, and not beat them over the head with the raw truth.  But within our communities, to keep our people from being deceived, they must hear the truth - that the Allah of the Quran is a god of hatred, lies, etc. and the God of the Bible, revealed in the OT and further revealed in the NT, the God in Trinity, the God who So Loved the World - that He is a different God, a God of Love, Mercy, Hope, Faith, Kindness.

What saddens me are the "moderate" moslems, because by the standards of their own book and their own  faith they are the ones who are perverting Allah by comingling, comarrying, and living in harmony with the infidel.  They are the ones practicing what we think is ideal Islam, what we hope and pray is the true Islam - but these hopes are vain, until Islam gets some further superceding revalation that tells them so.
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2006, 09:14:45 AM »

I still maintain that the most damaging issue here with respect to asserting that Muslims believe in the same God as us, is not that it results in a false equation between the true God of Love, and the demonic god of hatred, but rather in that it validates a fundamental Islamic doctrine which constitutes the backbone of Islam's claim to validity i.e. that Islam "fulfills" the revelations that preceded it.

Muhammed consistently refers to the Gospels and the Torah, much in the same way that Christ pointed to the OT (except Muhammed, being obviously ignorant of both books, could not quote a single verse as Christ did), in his attempt to validate his position as the last of God's prophets. As you can imagine, it's quite an easy polemic against the validity of Islam, to prove that Muhammed miserably fails to fulfill or continue anything of the Judeo-Christian tradition (the obvious similiarities are superficial e.g. dietry regulations), and hence his god could not possibly have been the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.

Somehow I think that discrediting a fundamental Islamic doctrine, better serves a Muslim's interest and potential to convert, than to defend that fundamental Islamic doctrine (which is what the statements of the RCC, in effect do), but maybe that's just my own warped logic?
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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2006, 09:20:14 AM »

No, it makes perfect sense - if they are going to use the argument as a foundation of their personal belief in Islam, then that is where one must strike - with the understanding that there may be an initial (possibly violent) backlash, but after much time discrediting their belief, it will soften them and leave them open to joining the true faith.

Thanks for keeping us aware of this important issue EA.  I think because many of us have not had to make these arguments face-to-face with moslems themselves, we can sometimes be disconnected from very effective and necessary elements.
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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2006, 10:06:08 AM »

In effect you're saying that Moslems are good despite Islam. I agree with this.

Some Muslims  Wink, the "moderate" ones
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2006, 10:37:33 AM »

All the quotes prove that there is no injunction in the Quran or Hadith to kill Christians because they are Christians. If that was a Quranic instruction then there would have been no Dhimmi would there? People of the Book are not to be killed because of their faith. Christians are People of the Book therefore they are not killed because of their faith. Christians and Muslims kill each other in wars. That is the way wars go but to say that Muslims believe they have a divine mandate to kill Christians for their Christianity is false.

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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2006, 11:43:53 AM »

Quote
All the quotes prove that there is no injunction in the Quran or Hadith to kill Christians because they are Christians.

Actually, they do.

Quote
Christians are People of the Book therefore they are not killed because of their faith.

Please read Islamic literature in context. According to the Qur'an, Christians, the so-called "People of the Book", are also mushriqin (i.e. idolators), by virtue of their confession of the Divinity and Sonship of Christ and the Holy Trinity. According to Surat Al-kaffirun, we are also therefore, non-believers.

Quote
If that was a Quranic instruction then there would have been no Dhimmi would there?

There were Dhimmi because Muhammed had a brilliant new idea: he would keep non-Muslims alive in order that they may finance him! Since you are so informed on these issues, would you like to tell us what happened to the Dhimmi if they refused to pay the Jizyah?

Quote
People of the Book are not to be killed because of their faith.

The so-called people of the book were killed because of their faith (have you heard of a thing called h…i…s…t….o….r…y?), are killed because of their faith, and will be killed because of their faith. Please see the 1001 verses that have been referenced in this thread; if you cannot directly engage with the relevant evidence in context, then do not bother trying to make such wild, and unsubstantiated general remarks regarding what Islam does or does not teach.
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2006, 11:54:07 AM »

over-seeing the execution of PoWs, applauding the murder of people who made witty poems about him, etc.

Plenty of Orthodox saints oversaw the murder of POWs. The Romanian Orthodox Church glorified several for fighting against the Turks in ways that, according to contemporary notions of just warfare, would be barbaric.
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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2006, 01:24:20 PM »

"Somehow I think that discrediting a fundamental Islamic doctrine, better serves a Muslim's interest and potential to convert, than to defend that fundamental Islamic doctrine (which is what the statements of the RCC, in effect do), but maybe that's just my own warped logic?"

The Statement does not defend Islamic doctrine, but esteems what of the truth Muslims profess.  Certainly a Christian has common point of reference in monotheism with Jews, Muslims, and Zoroastrians for that matter.  Muslims have respect for Christ and His Mother, which is something to start evangelization with.  They believe in prayer, fasting, and almsgiving another thing to build from.  Truth does not become untruth because a non-Christian professes it.  All things find their fulfillment in Christ, and just as Socrates and other philosophers professed One God without knowing who that was they prepared the Greeks for the coming of Christianity.  I think we must look at other religions in the same way, what is good and truthful in them is preparing them to receive the Gospel and we must build upon that so we can fulfill our mandate to share the Gospel with them.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2006, 03:16:18 AM »

All the quotes prove that there is no injunction in the Quran or Hadith to kill Christians because they are Christians. If that was a Quranic instruction then there would have been no Dhimmi would there? People of the Book are not to be killed because of their faith. Christians are People of the Book therefore they are not killed because of their faith. Christians and Muslims kill each other in wars. That is the way wars go but to say that Muslims believe they have a divine mandate to kill Christians for their Christianity is false.


Sorry, but you missed the quotes that support violence to non-believers
Have a look at the Orthodox Genocide
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

And then see what the Koran says (I've already quoted the verses). Here's one...
"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)

For Moslems they believe that Christians and Jews have perverted the message of God. They accord us a special status because they recognise that God indeed sent us messengers. They call us 'people of the book' simply to formulate into law a special status of inequality. We are still 'unbelievers' to them. If we weren't then there'd be no need to categorise us into this lower status.*

It's in effect to ease their own efforts at using up all their resources. Once they've conquered us, and we've accepted this, then we're allowed to live on, so that the bulk of their resources are directed upon those yet to be conqueored.

*Lower status:
We are still deemed non-believers, but in one sense, a step above a mere pagan.

No Moslem can be convicted on the word of a Dhimmi.
"...the testimony of a non-Muslim was not allowed in a Muslim shari'ah court, so if a Jew or Christian had a case against a Muslim, he would have to get Muslim witnesses..."
http://www.secularislam.net/archives/000017.html
 
"Under Islamic law statutes, the testimony of a Christian or any other non-Muslim carries only half the legal weight of a Muslim witness in a sharia court. So al-Muhtadi insisted that the judge must count his testimony as a Muslim to be stronger evidence than anything testified by his Christian sister...."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005399.php
"Ibn Timiyya emphasizes forcefully in Volume 14,
 
"Nothing in the law of Muhammad states that the blood of the disbeliever is equal to the blood of the Muslim because faith is necessary for equality. The people of the Covenant (Jews or Christians) do not believe in Muhammad and Islam, thus their blood and the Muslim’s blood cannot be equal. These are distinctive texts which indicate that a Muslim is not to be put to death for (murdering) one of the people of the covenant or an unbeliever, but a free Muslim must be killed for a free Muslim, regardless of the race" (Vol. 14, p. 85)."
http://www.amefufuka.com/islam/btv4.php

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« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2006, 03:18:09 AM »

Plenty of Orthodox saints oversaw the murder of POWs. The Romanian Orthodox Church glorified several for fighting against the Turks in ways that, according to contemporary notions of just warfare, would be barbaric.
Name some. Are these people we're meant to follow? I've never heard of them.

Your relativist argument fails insofar as I'm concerned because Jesus is the one I follow, not these people you talk about, whom I've never heard of - which itself shows that they're not that much of an example

Thanks in advance for the evidence
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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2006, 04:33:29 AM »

Plenty of Orthodox saints oversaw the murder of POWs. The Romanian Orthodox Church glorified several for fighting against the Turks in ways that, according to contemporary notions of just warfare, would be barbaric.

Who? Off the top of my head I can only think of one Romanian saint that was glorified for his actions during the Turkish invasion and that was Stefan cel Mare, who was glorified for his faith and patronage of the Church, not his warfare. He certainly wasn't accused of barbaric methods either. Most of his contemporaries respected him greatly, the Pope gave him the title Athlete of Christ despite his defeat of two invading Roman Catholic powers, he had an alliance with a Muslim Khan who was also opposed to the Ottoman expansion and even the Sultan respected him though he was a thorn in his side. Please try to find an example of the Romanian Church glorifying a war criminal. It should be funny. You seem to suffer from a serious bias against all things Romanian as I've noticed on this forum before.

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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2006, 06:40:34 AM »

Who? Off the top of my head I can only think of one Romanian saint that was glorified for his actions during the Turkish invasion and that was Stefan cel Mare, who was glorified for his faith and patronage of the Church, not his warfare. He certainly wasn't accused of barbaric methods either. Most of his contemporaries respected him greatly, the Pope gave him the title Athlete of Christ despite his defeat of two invading Roman Catholic powers, he had an alliance with a Muslim Khan who was also opposed to the Ottoman expansion and even the Sultan respected him though he was a thorn in his side. Please try to find an example of the Romanian Church glorifying a war criminal. It should be funny. You seem to suffer from a serious bias against all things Romanian as I've noticed on this forum before.

James

There's lots of people who try relativist arguments in order to defend Islam
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2006, 07:15:57 AM »

There's lots of people who try relativist arguments in order to defend Islam

I know. Judging by some of CRCulver's previous posts in the forum, I suspect this particular relativist (and unevidenced) argument was less about defending Islam, though, than it was about attacking the Romanian Church.

James
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2006, 07:22:36 PM »

So we're still left with Catholics believing this horrendous person had ideals inspired by God.

It's like Americans believing Hitler was for democracy, and saying that there were 'shared values'
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« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2006, 01:35:03 AM »

So we're still left with Catholics believing this horrendous person had ideals inspired by God.

Breaking my lenten decision to not post on this board for a second............

NO. ÂÂ You may think that's what the Catholic Church teaches based on what you read into that quote, but that doesn't make it the Catholic Church's belief. ÂÂ  Read the appropriate section in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church - the whole section, not just the paragraph - if you want to form an idea of what the Catholic Church teaches on a subject. ÂÂ

To put it in unnuanced, black and white, truth and error terms, the Catholic Church believes that what's good in Islam (e.g. the things listed in NA) is a reflection of the truth (i.e. Catholicism), but that there are fundamental flaws in Islam which make it completely incorrect (e.g. "Jesus is a prophet, and Mohammed is the greatest of Prophets, among many others). ÂÂ This same principles would apply to paganism or other such things - there are good things in them which reflect the truth, but that doesn't make them the truth.   [if something I said is incorrect, I defer to Fr. Deacon Lance or other Catholic clergy]
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« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2006, 01:42:06 AM »

Breaking my lenten decision to not post on this board for a second............

NO. ÂÂ You may think that's what the Catholic Church teaches based on what you read into that quote, but that doesn't make it the Catholic Church's belief. ÂÂ  Read the appropriate section in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church - the whole section, not just the paragraph - if you want to form an idea of what the Catholic Church teaches on a subject. ÂÂ
What I've read say that Moslems and Catholics worship the same god.
To put it in unnuanced, black and white, truth and error terms, the Catholic Church believes that what's good in Islam (e.g. the things listed in NA) is a reflection of the truth (i.e. Catholicism), but that there are fundamental flaws in Islam which make it completely incorrect (e.g. "Jesus is a prophet, and Mohammed is the greatest of Prophets, among many others). ÂÂ This same principles would apply to paganism or other such things - there are good things in them which reflect the truth, but that doesn't make them the truth. ÂÂ  [if something I said is incorrect, I defer to Fr. Deacon Lance or other Catholic clergy]
No, that's totally different. The Catholic church does not say that pagans have some good ideas therefore pagans worship the same god. They don't say it of Hindus, either.

There is no good in Islam because it's inspired by Satan (evidenced by the very things I've already stated, such as what they consider to be the attributes of the best example of man).
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« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2006, 02:02:01 AM »

The Statement does not defend Islamic doctrine, but esteems what of the truth Muslims profess.  Certainly a Christian has common point of reference in monotheism with Jews, Muslims, and Zoroastrians for that matter.

Acknowledging the monotheistic conception of God in Islam, is a completely different story to acknowledging that you believe in the same God as the one proclaimed by Islam. The former would entail the identification of a particular secondary characteristic ascribed to the being of God, as a common point of reference in abstract theology, whereas the latter entails the identification of the very being of God as a common point of reference in faith, and consequently allegiance, worship etc. In so doing, the statement does in effect defend Islamic doctrine to the detriment of Christian doctrine, as explained per my previous posts.

Quote
I think we must look at other religions in the same way, what is good and truthful in them is preparing them to receive the Gospel and we must build upon that so we can fulfill our mandate to share the Gospel with them.


If you think I disagree with this, as if I need to be convinced of it, then you clearly misunderstand the nature of my argument. The Islamic doctrinal claim which the satement in question in effect defends, is one that is neither good nor truthful; it is a plain and simple lie i.e. that the God who inspired the Judeo-Christian tradition, and who thus became the object of faith and worship for the Jews and Christians, is the same God who extended this progressive revelation to the seventh century, hence bringing about the Islamic tradition under the alleged prophethood of Muhammed, and hence consequently becoming the very object of faith and worship for the Muslims.
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« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2006, 06:00:56 AM »

Acknowledging the monotheistic conception of God in Islam, is a completely different story to acknowledging that you believe in the same God as the one proclaimed by Islam. The former would entail the identification of a particular secondary characteristic ascribed to the being of God, as a common point of reference in abstract theology, whereas the latter entails the identification of the very being of God as a common point of reference in faith, and consequently allegiance, worship etc. In so doing, the statement does in effect defend Islamic doctrine to the detriment of Christian doctrine, as explained per my previous posts.
You've put your argument better than I can
 
If you think I disagree with this, as if I need to be convinced of it, then you clearly misunderstand the nature of my argument. The Islamic doctrinal claim which the satement in question in effect defends, is one that is neither good nor truthful; it is a plain and simple lie i.e. that the God who inspired the Judeo-Christian tradition, and who thus became the object of faith and worship for the Jews and Christians, is the same God who extended this progressive revelation to the seventh century, hence bringing about the Islamic tradition under the alleged prophethood of Muhammed, and hence consequently becoming the very object of faith and worship for the Muslims.
Moslems state that their god al-lah deceived Christians.

Surah  An-Nisa
Ayah [157]      
  And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

Thus Al-lah caused a deception

They also directly misrepresent Christianity. It's one thing to disagree with Christianity by having different views. They do this deception by claiming that the Trinity that we worship consists of Father, Son, and Mother.

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Surah 5:116]


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« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2006, 10:32:33 AM »

Muslims worshipping their god:

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« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2006, 02:59:11 PM »

Cool, we should do something like that.  
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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2006, 05:14:43 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8443.msg112289#msg112289 date=1142794751]
Cool, we should do something like that. ÂÂ
[/quote]

Moslems don't have a good track-record with women:
Another favourite 'truth' quoted is that men and women are equal, because they were created from the same stuff.
"Men have fear of your Lord, who created you from a single soul. From that soul He created its mate and through them He bestrewed the earth with countless men and women" (Sura 4:1)
This is in fact simply to mean that we come from the same source. For women, as wives, are there to serve their husband's needs...
"The prophet said: 'When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.'"(Sahih hadith, chapter 558) . This notion that a woman is to give herself over to her husband's desires is further reinforced... "The prophet of Allah said: When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven." Mishkat al-Masabih, English translation, Book I, Section 'Duties of husband and wife', Hadith No. 61. Not only that, she is admonished for not doing so; "The prophet said: 'When a man calls his wife to bed and she does not come, the husband spends the night being angry with her, and the angels curse her until morning. The one who is in heaven is displeased with her until the husband is pleased with her.'"(Sahih hadith, chapter 558).
 
And female genital mutilation, whilst not specific to Islamic communities can be seen to be condoned by Islam, for Muhammad never condemned it...
Abu Dawud Book 41, Number 5251:  Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
 

More of his attitudes can be found in hadith...

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:

Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.'

http://www.zawaj.com/articles/sahihbukhari.html

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, "If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse."

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

Allah's Apostle said, "If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house."

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:

Narrated Usama bin Zaid:

The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

(Ibid)

 

[6]

Martyrdom is highly praised

Surah  Al-Ahzab Ayah [23]      
  Among the believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah [i.e. they have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting), and showed not their backs to the disbelievers], of them some have fulfilled their obligations (i.e. have been martyred), and some of them are still waiting, but they have never changed [i.e.they never proved treacherous to their covenant which they concluded with Allah] in the least.

(note the insert of comments is from the Islamic site http://www.quraan.com, not me)

 

Houris are mentioned a number of times

Surah Ad-Dukhan: 44:54
So (it will be), and We shall marry them to Houris (female fair ones) with wide, lovely eyes.

 

Surah At-Tur: 52:20
They will recline (with ease) on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Houris (female, fair ones) with wide lovely eyes.

 

Surah Ar-Rahman: 55:72
Houris (beautiful, fair females) restrained in pavilions;

 

Surah Al-Waqi'ah: 56:22
And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious),

 

For women, their reward in heaven includes the privilege of remaining with their husbands.
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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2006, 05:31:30 PM »

*Sigh*

They just don't get it.

Really, what exactly don't we get?
 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2006, 05:33:28 PM »

I'm glad to hear they think that the moslems believe in the same God... so apparently their god is two-faced, since he says in one instance to love one another, and in another to kill the Christians.  If this is the case, then it's we who don't believe in the same god as the Catholics and the Moslems.

Thanks for those generous sentiments
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« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2006, 07:49:06 AM »

Really, what exactly don't we get?

Probably the fact that Islam doesn't worship the same god as Christians do.
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