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Author Topic: How does the Catholic Church see Orthodox positions?  (Read 16925 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mother Anastasia
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« Reply #135 on: April 30, 2006, 05:13:03 AM »

Quote from: BrotherAidan link=topic=8380.msg110603#msg110603 date=1141880815
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The division between east and west is so wearisome that sometimes I feel like I would like to accept JPII's view, stated above by Anastasios. They say that for the first several hundred years after the schism, at the lay and parish levels, no one felt divided and still felt they were all part of one Church. In some ways, maybe that is happening today; at work, at school, out on the street, if you meet a RC who is devout and takes his/her faith seriously, amidst all the pagans, you feel like you've met a brother or sister. I bet at this grass roots level more RC's would tell you God is loving and that Christ died as an example of love than would posit an Angry God whose Son had to die to appease the wrath of the Father. That view seems to be now just the domain of the fudamentalists and strict Calvinists although Orthodox converts from the RC's would know better than I.
[/color]

Thank you Brother Aidan for your perspective. I am new to this forum and wonder if there are other souls here who are grieved over the institutionally fomented divisions and exclusions created by strict adherence to  the Letter of the Law?

There is so much holiness and beauty in both Latin and Orthodox,  created by
the Holy Spirit in souls that continually said, "Yes." to God.  Have we the right to exclude them, or discount their holy examples and teachings because they are not correct according to our human standards?  Can we call unholy, what God Himself has made Holy?

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« Reply #136 on: April 30, 2006, 06:10:06 AM »

[/color]

Thank you Brother Aidan for your perspective. I am new to this forum and wonder if there are other souls here who are grieved over the institutionally fomented divisions and exclusions created by strict adherence to  the Letter of the Law?

There is so much holiness and beauty in both Latin and Orthodox,  created by
the Holy Spirit in souls that continually said, "Yes." to God.  Have we the right to exclude them, or discount their holy examples and teachings because they are not correct according to our human standards?  Can we call unholy, what God Himself has made Holy?

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One could say that there's much holiness and beauty in Hinduism
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« Reply #137 on: April 30, 2006, 02:10:54 PM »


One could say that there's much holiness and beauty in Hinduism


But then one would not be refering to the sacramental church begun by Christ in 33 A.D.,  would they?  

Perhaps you could find a good Hindu forum for your insights brother.
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« Reply #138 on: April 30, 2006, 02:13:39 PM »

One could say that there's much holiness and beauty in Hinduism

But then one would not be referring to the Sacramental Church begun by Christ in 33 A.D., would  they?

Perhaps you could find a good Hindu forum on which to share your insights brother.
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« Reply #139 on: April 30, 2006, 11:12:43 PM »

One could say that there's much holiness and beauty in Hinduism


But then one would not be refering to the sacramental church begun by Christ in 33 A.D.,  would they? ÂÂ

Perhaps you could find a good Hindu forum for your insights brother.
Indeed, not, but that still doesn't negate the sentence I made.
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« Reply #140 on: May 07, 2006, 04:41:41 PM »

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, a perspective from Re: Heresy - Jurisdiction 175

Some canonical Orthodox  are not in agreement about the stain of original sin being cleansed through Baptism.  I believe that the Holy Spirit in His profound condescension and humility, provided a grace to help verify this doctrine.   When Theotokos appeared to Bernadette and called herself the "Immaculate Conception", those who were closed to Him would not accept it,  so they had to discredit Lourdes, even though to this day the body of Bernadette remains under glass for all to see, incorrupt.  And the miracles from Lourdes continue.

Given the evidence,  it is apparent that this doctrine and manifestation have been testified to by God in His Divine and Miraculous Intervention and Providence.  If what I say here is factual, then all that oppose this doctrine and its repercussions, have not withstood the RCC, they have withstood God Himself, in His  merciful provision to bring the two Churches together in orthodox understanding.
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« Reply #141 on: May 07, 2006, 05:40:48 PM »

Some canonical Orthodox  are not in agreement about the stain of original sin being cleansed through Baptism. ÂÂ

Oh yah?  Like who?  

Quote
Given the evidence,  it is apparent that this doctrine and manifestation have been testified to by God in His Divine and Miraculous Intervention and Providence.

So one "appearance" to a person, which goes against a fuller understanding of the Theotokos which was hammered out in 2 of the Ecumenical councils is enough evidence??  Wow...that's a little problematic.  

Quote
If what I say here is factual, then all that oppose this doctrine and its repercussions, have not withstood the RCC, they have withstood God Himself, in His  merciful provision to bring the two Churches together in orthodox understanding.

I think if God had wanted to bring the 2 churches together he would have given a much greater sign than one signal (which is disputed) to one person.  But hey, I can't really speak for God...

My opinion is that he would have just stopped the pope and patrairch from excommunicating each other, but hey, men will be men (humans).  

And i'm not sure if going against this woman's vision is so much a blasphemy against God.  God put the vision there (hypothetically), and its up to us whether or not we're going to chose to accept it.  We make those kinds of decisions every day in terms of miraculous icons, etc.  Are we blaspheming an icon which may be a trick of the devil?  I think its a lot less clear-cut than you make it out to be...
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« Reply #142 on: May 07, 2006, 06:32:40 PM »

Serb1389:Oh yah?  Like who?   Sorry, I can't find it.  Since the threads have been moved around. But it was during a discussion on appartitions (it wasn't in the Medj thread) when someone said that in his Orthodox instruction, I believe in Yugoslavia, it was taught. Another contributor said that it was accepted in one of the councils)

So one "appearance" to a person, which goes against a fuller understanding of the Theotokos which was hammered out in 2 of the Ecumenical councils is enough evidence??  Wow...that's a little problematic.

It wasn't just one appearance, it was an event, with recurring apparitions, a miraculous spring,  hundreds of documented healings (now thousands), and the girl to whom these visions were given, became a nun, led an irreproachable life  and fell asleep in a holy manner.  Her body is preserved incorrupt.  

That should speak volumes about the importance to God of this doctrine.

   


I think if God had wanted to bring the 2 churches together he would have given a much greater sign than one signal (which is disputed) to one person.  But hey, I can't really speak for God...It takes time to change the hearts of men, God is gentle and works over time.  Look at the tensions that were eased by the appearance of The Virgin in Zeitun, Egypt.


My opinion is that he would have just stopped the pope and patriarch from excommunicating each other, but hey, men will be men (humans).  
[It seems that the gift of free will, brings with it the most painful consequences when abused, as well as the most glory to God when used rightly.

And i'm not sure if going against this woman's vision is so much a blasphemy against God. I never mentioned anything about blasphemy, I was just citing this example as evidence for God's position on the Immaculate Conception.  
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« Reply #143 on: May 07, 2006, 07:41:43 PM »

Quote
I was just citing this example as evidence for God's position on the Immaculate Conception.

And Allah works wonders in Islam.  Hindus claim that their gods work wonders.
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« Reply #144 on: May 07, 2006, 08:00:15 PM »

It wasn't just one appearance, it was an event, with recurring apparitions, a miraculous spring,  hundreds of documented healings (now thousands), and the girl to whom these visions were given, became a nun, led an irreproachable life  and fell asleep in a holy manner.  Her body is preserved incorrupt.
Personally, I think the "miraculous" manner of Bernadette's death may be a testament to her personal holiness and sanctity, but I don't see in this evidence for the truth of a dogma that was never believed "at all times, everywhere, and by all" until Pope Pius IX proclaimed it to be a dogma in 1854.  The Immaculate Conception dogma reeks of a soteriology that depends far too heavily on St. Augustine's definition of original sin.  What credit is given to how many of the Eastern Fathers viewed the sin of Adam and Eve?
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« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2006, 09:20:05 AM »

Sorry, I can't find it.  Since the threads have been moved around. But it was during a discussion on appartitions (it wasn't in the Medj thread) when someone said that in his Orthodox instruction, I believe in Yugoslavia, it was taught. Another contributor said that it was accepted in one of the councils)


I think you need to be much more specific here.  When you say "in Yugoslavia" I assume you are talking about the FORMER YUGOSLAVIA.  which constituted of several "regions" of which 2 were ultra-catholic.  The rest were either Islamic or Orthodox, so basing your assumption on such a diverse country, could lead to wrong assumptions.  This meaning, that if there was the theology of the immaculate conception comming out of Yugoslavia, then it was probobly out of CATHOLIC Croatia, so that would make sense.  This would also mean that there is no connection whatsoever to its use in an ORTHODOX country.  

Quote
It wasn't just one appearance, it was an event, with recurring apparitions, a miraculous spring,  hundreds of documented healings (now thousands), and the girl to whom these visions were given, became a nun, led an irreproachable life  and fell asleep in a holy manner.  Her body is preserved incorrupt.  

That should speak volumes about the importance to God of this doctrine.

I'm sorry, it doesn't speak volumes to me.  Dealing with the theotokos through mysticism is a very personal approach.  There is still the problem with this stuff contradicting the 2 Ecumenical councils.  Are you trying to say that the HS was not certain who to talk to??

Quote
I never mentioned anything about blasphemy, I was just citing this example as evidence for God's position on the Immaculate Conception.  

And I cited the Ecumenical councils.  So where does this leave us?  
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« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2006, 03:49:08 PM »

Personally, I think the "miraculous" manner of Bernadette's death may be a testament to her personal holiness and sanctity, but I don't see in this evidence for the truth of a dogma that was never believed "at all times, everywhere, and by all" until Pope Pius IX proclaimed it to be a dogma in 1854.  The Immaculate Conception dogma reeks of a soteriology that depends far too heavily on St. Augustine's definition of original sin.  What credit is given to how many of the Eastern Fathers viewed the sin of Adam and Eve?

Reply:

March 8, 2005
Patriarch Bartholomew on the “Immaculate Conception”
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/index.php?p=713

The Catholic Church found that it needed to institute a new dogma for Christendom about one thousand and eight hundred years after the appearance of the Christianity, because it had accepted a perception of original sin - a mistaken one for us Orthodox- according to which original sin passes on a moral stain or a legal responsibility to the descendants of Adam, instead of that recognized as correct by the Orthodox faith according to which the sin transmitted through inheritance the corruption, caused by the separation of mankind from the uncreated grace of God, which makes him live spiritually and in the flesh. Mankind shaped in the image of God, with the possibility and destiny of being like to God, by freely choosing love towards Him and obedience to his commandments, can even after the fall of Adam and Eve become friend of God according to intention; then God sanctifies them, as he sanctified many of the progenitors before Christ, even if the accomplishment of their ransom from corruption, that is their salvation, was achieved after the incarnation of Christ and through Him.

In consequence, according to the Orthodox faith, Mary the All-holy Mother of God was not conceived exempt from the corruption of original sin, but loved God above of all things and obeyed his commandments, and thus was sanctified by God through Jesus Christ who incarnated himself of her. She obeyed Him like one of the faithful, and addressed herself to Him with a Mother's trust. Her holiness and purity were not blemished by the corruption, handed on to her by original sin as to every man, precisely because she was reborn in Christ like all the saints, sanctified above every saint.

Her reinstatement in the condition prior to the Fall did not necessarily take place at the moment of her conception. We believe that it happened afterwards, as consequence of the progress in her of the action of the uncreated divine grace through the visit of the Holy Spirit, which brought about the conception of the Lord within her, purifying her from every stain.

As already said, original sin weighs on the descendants of Adam and of Eve as corruption, and not as legal responsibility or moral stain. The sin brought hereditary corruption and not a hereditary legal responsibility or a hereditary moral stain. In consequence the All-holy participated in the hereditary corruption, like all mankind, but with her love for God and her purity understood as an imperturbable and unhesitating dedication of her love to God alone she succeeded, through the grace of God, in sanctifying herself in Christ and making herself worthy of becoming the house of God, as God wants all us human beings to become. Therefore we in the Orthodox Church honor the All-holy Mother of God above all the saints, albeit we don't accept the new dogma of her Immaculate Conception. The non-acceptance of this dogma in no way diminishes our love and veneration of the All-holy Mother of God.
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« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2006, 03:38:32 AM »

Reply:

March 8, 2005
Patriarch Bartholomew on the “Immaculate Conception”
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/blog/index.php?p=713

The Catholic Church found that it needed to institute a new dogma...
If Patriarch Bartholomew, believes that his position is the correct one, I would hope and pray that he, seeing himself as a father with a deeper understanding of the mysteries of the faith, will rise above whatever antagonisms this may cause him and take the Catholic Church under his wing in intercessory prayer, as a mother hen cares for her chick.

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« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2006, 04:20:09 AM »

I think you need to be much more specific here.  When you say "in Yugoslavia" I assume you are talking about the FORMER YUGOSLAVIA.  which constituted of several "regions" of which 2 were ultra-catholic.  The rest were either Islamic or Orthodox, so basing your assumption on such a diverse country, could lead to wrong assumptions.  This meaning, that if there was the theology of the immaculate conception comming out of Yugoslavia, then it was probobly out of CATHOLIC Croatia, so that would make sense.  This would also mean that there is no connection whatsoever to its use in an ORTHODOX country. 
   
Re: Heresy?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2006, 10:48:07 PM »
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However, we, the Orthodox, still hold the dogma of the Original Sin, as stated in the canons of the Council of Carthage (418), later recieved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople; the said dogma wasn't even an issue between the East and the West until very recently. Growing up in an Orthodox country I've always been taught that the Holy Baptism washes away the Original ("Ancestral", how we call it in Romanian) sin.

    
Re: Heresy?
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2006, 11:35:34 PM »
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Quote
recieved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople;

Well.... the only problem with that is that the 6th Ecumenical Council sometimes accepted contradictory canons and principles, so acceptance of a Council (or collection of Canons of a Church Father) is by no means a precise and dogmatic acceptance of every single doctrine or belief within those sources. The sources accepted by the 6th Ecuemenical Council endorsed a number of different views towards the apocrypha/deuterocanonical, for example. Sometimes the people who originally wrote the canons didn't even follow their own canons (e.g., the principle established at the 1st Ecumenical Council that bishops were not to go from city to city).



    
Re: Heresy?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2006, 11:12:36 PM »
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Quote from: augustin717 on April 30, 2006, 10:58:28 PM
We also believe that we share in that first sin, in some way.
We had religion classes in school there, and that is how we were taught by the parish priest.
That is not to say that our parish priest is the ultimate theological authority, but just to get an idea what the a regular Orthodox priest teaches his flock, in a non-polemical environment.

We share in the consequences, but not the sin itself. It has often been called the "ancestral curse." Even the Bible establshed the principle:

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)


    
Re: Heresy?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2006, 11:15:11 PM »
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But those that die without having been baptized, even the babes, is generally taught that they cannot inherit God's Kingdom, being severed from Christ.

    

Re: Heresy?
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2006, 11:39:42 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
The Catechism of St. Philaret of Moscow clearly teaches the dogma of the Original sin.
It is revisionist theology what Kalomiros does in his "The River of Fire".


    
Re: Heresy?
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2006, 11:43:11 PM »
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Asteriktos,
Do you know that, within the OC, unbaptized children are not even allowed a Christian burial, in an Orthodox cemetery. Back in my little town, there were a section, in a remote corner of the cemetery reserved for those that commited suicide and unbaptized children. It is clerar then, that the OC is not very hopeful as to their lot.




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« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2006, 12:21:51 PM »

   
Re: Heresy?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2006, 10:48:07 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
However, we, the Orthodox, still hold the dogma of the Original Sin, as stated in the canons of the Council of Carthage (418), later recieved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople; the said dogma wasn't even an issue between the East and the West until very recently. Growing up in an Orthodox country I've always been taught that the Holy Baptism washes away the Original ("Ancestral", how we call it in Romanian) sin.


First of all I would like to say that I was speaking about Yugoslavia in the quote you provided.  In the reference above, you refer to Romania.  I don't know if that was on pupose, but they are two different countries, so i'm not sure where you were going with that...

Also, who are you quoting?  Also, can you provide the canon where the acception of Carthage happened?  Also, can you provide the canon of the Council of Carthage that talks about the acceptance of Original Sin?

 
   
Re: Heresy?
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2006, 11:35:34 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
Quote
recieved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople;

Well.... the only problem with that is that the 6th Ecumenical Council sometimes accepted contradictory canons and principles, so acceptance of a Council (or collection of Canons of a Church Father) is by no means a precise and dogmatic acceptance of every single doctrine or belief within those sources. The sources accepted by the 6th Ecuemenical Council endorsed a number of different views towards the apocrypha/deuterocanonical, for example. Sometimes the people who originally wrote the canons didn't even follow their own canons (e.g., the principle established at the 1st Ecumenical Council that bishops were not to go from city to city).

This quote disproves the above statements about the acceptance of original sin.  So, why did you provide it? 

Quote
We share in the consequences, but not the sin itself. It has often been called the "ancestral curse." Even the Bible establshed the principle:

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)

Catholic theology would make it more dichotomized and say that we do not just partake of the sin, it is "imbeded" into us (accentuation and quotes are mine).  It is a part of the hereditary things of this world, just like eyes, hair, etc.  (as far as my understanding goes)

Quote
But those that die without having been baptized, even the babes, is generally taught that they cannot inherit God's Kingdom, being severed from Christ.
 

I think God is a lot more loving than this makes Him out to be...

If this were true, with original sin, there would be millions of souls lost to a technicality and OUR legalism, not God's. 

Quote
The Catechism of St. Philaret of Moscow clearly teaches the dogma of the Original sin.
It is revisionist theology what Kalomiros does in his "The River of Fire".

I would love to see this catechism and see exactly how he "clearly teaches the dogma of original sin" 

Quote
Do you know that, within the OC, unbaptized children are not even allowed a Christian burial, in an Orthodox cemetery. Back in my little town, there were a section, in a remote corner of the cemetery reserved for those that commited suicide and unbaptized children. It is clerar then, that the OC is not very hopeful as to their lot.

Firstly, were you talking to Asterikos there?  Or were you QUOTING him?

Secondly, a practice of one graveyard = one priest, is not an authoritative practice which can then characterize the entire church. 
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« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2006, 04:05:31 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you all peace,

Why don't we draw our definition for Original Sin from the horse's mouth.

Original sin may be taken to mean: (1) the sin that Adam committed; (2) a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

From the earliest times the latter sense of the word was more common, as may be seen by St. Augustine's statement: "the deliberate sin of the first man is the cause of original sin" (De nupt. et concup., II, xxvi, 43). It is the hereditary stain that is dealt with here. As to the sin of Adam we have not to examine the circumstances in which it was committed nor make the exegesis of the third chapter of Genesis.
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« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2006, 11:41:30 PM »

The link you provided has a couple of points I wanted to bring up. 

Quote
Moreover, in the following canon are cited the words of the Council of Carthage, in which there is question of a sin contracted by generation and effaced by generation [Denz., n. 102 (66)].

So was there a proclamation of the dogma?  Or a question of the sin being contracted vs. it being effaced by generation?  Because those are two different issues. 

The problem with this particular canon is that Mother Anastasia said that the ORTHODOX confirmed this canon in Carthage.  Whereas, in your link it is expressed as a CATHOLIC council. 
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« Reply #152 on: May 10, 2006, 01:15:13 AM »

.Also, who are you quoting?

I just took those off this forum,  they were replies to me.
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« Reply #153 on: May 10, 2006, 01:20:09 AM »



Quote from: Mother Anastasia on May 07, 2006, 04:41:41 PM
Some canonical Orthodox  are not in agreement about the stain of original sin being cleansed through Baptism.

Oh yah?  Like who? 

Brother, I was just giving you the quotes you asked for, I didn't say the "ORTHODOX confirmed" anything.
The top quote is what I did say.
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« Reply #154 on: May 10, 2006, 10:43:09 AM »


Quote from: Mother Anastasia on May 07, 2006, 04:41:41 PM
Some canonical Orthodox  are not in agreement about the stain of original sin being cleansed through Baptism.

Brother, I was just giving you the quotes you asked for, I didn't say the "ORTHODOX confirmed" anything.
The top quote is what I did say.

I was trying to ask quickly because I had time.  Please forgive me for my terse questions. 

I was under the impression that all orthodox churches had the same dogmas and beliefs.  So that's why I was trying to figure out what you're talking about.  You still havn't really explained it to me, with specific examples....could you do that? 
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« Reply #155 on: May 10, 2006, 06:41:58 PM »

  You still havn't really explained it to me, with specific examples....could you do that? 

I forgive you Smiley

I'm sorry Serb, I just haven't got the time to research all these peoples backgrounds to explain to you where they are coming from,  but I did quote the thread, I think it starts at #20, Re:Heresy. 

Maybe you could get in touch with them and get some good answers.
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« Reply #156 on: May 10, 2006, 08:53:55 PM »

I had a tough time finding the exact location.  Is there any way you could give it to me as a link?  That would help greatly...
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« Reply #157 on: May 11, 2006, 01:50:03 AM »

I had a tough time finding the exact location.  Is there any way you could give it to me as a link?  That would help greatly...

It took me at least 30 minutes too:  Starts here:Page 2, Re-Heresy?/Author, the Wolf/Orthodox-Catholic discussion.

http://orthodoxchristianity.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=32&topic=8922.15
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« Reply #158 on: May 11, 2006, 02:07:48 PM »

Thank you SOOO much.   I really appreciate the hard work, it made the point a lot easier to understand. 

So, having said that, what did you want to say with those posts? 

That original sin (as it is in the RC) is exactly the same in the OC?? 
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