Author Topic: A liturgical shock  (Read 2822 times)

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Offline Krysostomos

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A liturgical shock
« on: March 08, 2006, 09:28:59 AM »
Once in the life I went in London to the Ukrainian cathedral with an English rc friend for the Holy Liturgy on Sunday.
Many times during the service he was wondering: "Is this a catholic church, is this really a catholic church..."
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Offline serb1389

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 12:26:58 PM »
you mean he thought that the Ukranian church and the Catholic church were the same liturgically??  
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Offline monkvasyl

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 01:34:15 PM »
I remember, while in grade school, going one Sunday to our Landlady's church (Ruthenian Greek Catholic), instead of my own parish (Roman Catholic).  Boy was I ever quizzed on Monday, since I wasn't sitting with my classmates, as was the rule.  I simply told them I went to another Catholic church where I received both the bread and wine on a spoon.  The kids said it wasn't a Catholic church.  When I told them when I spoke to the priest and his wife and that they were Catholic...all hell broke loose.  Thankfully the nun told them about the differences of rites in the Catholic church.  Now look at me, a hierodeacon in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  Even in a RC seminary it was strange how many of the seminarians didn't know anything about the Eastern rites.  To most Catholics their church was only Roman.
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline serb1389

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 03:24:19 PM »
Even changes from jurisdiction to jurisdiction within EO churches can be daunting.  I know that when I came from an ONLY Serbian church to Holy Cross (seminary) I almost had heart failure.  The sounds were so different!  No royal doors, no curtain (they had one but its not used), no Serbian!  Everything was mainly in Greek at that time, and some English, which I had never heard in church either.  At least I knew what a Great Entrance was!!!  :D
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Offline monkvasyl

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2006, 04:00:17 PM »
Imagine going to a parish that was under a "Greek" Hierarch and a Russian Spiritual Father.  Christ the Savior Brotherhood was a little confusing when they were under that kool, Pangratios, from Queens, NY.

I had a hard time controling my Polish/Ukie temper when Pangratios came to "consecrate" the church, and we had a vigil service the night before.  Pangratios kept changing the order of the service to "Greek" usage (or maybe it was his usage) and made the fatal mistake of saying:  "The way you do it is only done on Mount Athos and by the Russians, and the Russians don't know any better."  My guardian angel must have been working overtime because I didn't fly over the reader's stand to strangle him.
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline serb1389

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 05:02:51 PM »
My guardian angle almost suffered stroke because i'm not going to write a comment that would put your guardian angel into kemo-therapy (about certain bishops and their liturgical practices...he's already hyperventilating so I should stop)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 05:03:33 PM by serb1389 »
I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that

Offline monkvasyl

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 05:09:29 PM »
I guess the last word will be, "Thank God for our guardian angels!"   :o
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline serb1389

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2006, 05:18:30 PM »
I gota get back into touch with mine. He's been on vacation too long.  Oh how Lent shows our iniquities!  
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Offline monkvasyl

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2006, 05:27:00 PM »
This is the season that our angels work overtime!  But, then, mine is always working overtime.  
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline Krysostomos

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2006, 02:49:47 AM »
you mean he thought that the Ukranian church and the Catholic church were the same liturgically?? ÂÂ

I think that just the different liturgy was a little bit too much...He hadn´t got much experince in eastern way of warship.
Weel, later on we visited also Russian orthodox cathedrad for great vespers on Saturday evening...( vigilia they call it here in Finland)
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Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2006, 01:44:47 AM »
This is only my oppenion. But I think that the RC do there liturgy or Mass as the call it the same way we do ours. I bet the people would all in love with our Liturgy. Plus it would bring the Two Churches closer together as one Church and one liturgy

Offline The young fogey

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2006, 07:49:30 AM »
This is only my oppenion. But I think that the RC do there liturgy or Mass as the call it the same way we do ours. I bet the people would all in love with our Liturgy. Plus it would bring the Two Churches closer together as one Church and one liturgy

What?

If you mean the Roman Catholics should familiarise themselves with the Eastern Orthodox liturgy and make theirs its equivalent again I agree.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 07:50:38 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2006, 08:05:23 AM »
Imagine going to a parish that was under a "Greek" Hierarch and a Russian Spiritual Father.  Christ the Savior Brotherhood was a little confusing when they were under that kool, Pangratios, from Queens, NY.

I had a hard time controling my Polish/Ukie temper when Pangratios came to "consecrate" the church, and we had a vigil service the night before.  Pangratios kept changing the order of the service to "Greek" usage (or maybe it was his usage) and made the fatal mistake of saying:  "The way you do it is only done on Mount Athos and by the Russians, and the Russians don't know any better."  My guardian angel must have been working overtime because I didn't fly over the reader's stand to strangle him.

Hmm, and to think a) he claimed to have been ordained by Russians and b) he was grabbing little boys around the time he was saying this.

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2006, 09:34:40 AM »
Hmm, and to think a) he claimed to have been ordained by Russians and b) he was grabbing little boys around the time he was saying this.

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Are there any of his parish(es) left?
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Offline monkvasyl

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2006, 09:43:06 AM »
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Yes, I think there are some who still hang-out with him. 

He was also great for concelebrating with Roman Catholics.  When he "consecrated" my former Bishop, His Grace Savvas, of eternal memory, in looking at photos of the event I noticed an archimandrite who looked familar, he should have, he was a Franciscan from the group I was originally in.  Also, since he needed 3 bishops for the consecration, he received Bishop anthony, of eternal memory, from Melrose, MA, a Byzantine-Old Catholic.  Yes, that what I said.  I was received in at Vespers the night before.

I do know one of his bishops, left him after the scandal.  He just stopped pretending to be a bishop and remained with his cell-attendant (lover).  Thank God most left him and joined with the Sebs, or OCA.
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2006, 10:53:13 AM »
So Pangratios, erm, Mr Vrionis, never was an Orthodox bishop? He was a former Greek Orthodox priest, right? Left/was thrown out after his first sex crimes 30-some years ago? I think Melanie Jula Sakoda's Pokrov site says so.

I thought he could kinda-sorta claim to be a bishop from being consecrated by some Old Calendaristish types so he and his clergy could be received in their orders economically if they joined the commonly understood Orthodox communion.

Nope.

Somebody told me recently that when the Christ the Saviour Brotherhood joined the Orthodox churches the Pangratios-ordained clergy had to be re-ordained.

So my visiting services with the CSB in northern California eight years ago counts as an encounter with vagantes! (A Divine Liturgy perhaps unwittingly simulated by a non-priest.) It was hard to tell, though, as their services were exactly like Orthodox ones.

The kicker/deal-breaker, I now realise, is they weren't in the Orthodox communion, even though they looked like they were.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 10:56:16 AM by The young fogey »
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Offline monkvasyl

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2006, 11:00:51 AM »
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Yes, the priests had to be re-ordained.  From appearances they really did look Orthodox, I think that was thanks to the training that Fr. Herman gave them.  With all his problems, at least that is something to his credit, they didn't get any help from Pangratios.  Its remarkable that all the documents that Pangratios shows are all forgeries. 
The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl

Offline Starlight

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2006, 12:25:17 PM »
Thank God most left him and joined with the Serbs, or OCA.

Fr. Vasyl, since I have a great honor to know you personally, I should say that you are a format for the clergy and the level of your faith and dedication is incredibly high.

a) he claimed to have been ordained by Russians

So Pangratios, erm, Mr Vrionis, never was an Orthodox bishop? He was a former Greek Orthodox priest, right? Left/was thrown out after his first sex crimes 30-some years ago? I think Melanie Julia Sakoda's Pokrov site says so.

Yes, Mr. Vrionis claimed to be ordained by Albanian, Romanian and Russian hierarchs. He did not provide any names of those on his web site. Normally, when you are ordained, you remember the names of those, who perform the service. And as you said, Young Fogey, he was thrown out 30+ years ago. He did not leave himself. Canonically, he is a defrocked hieromonk. I am not sure about ex-communication.
b) he was grabbing little boys around the time he was saying this.


I heard he completed his last term in jail and now he is back on the streets again.

Also, I was told a long time ago, when the last scandal broke out, that his successor wanted to approach the Ecumenical Patriarchate. So what happened? Did Vrionis come back from the jail and return to his "position".

Offline StGeorge

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 11:21:11 AM »
I do think that most Latin Rite Catholics get into this "Latin Rite = the Church" mentality.  It's unfortunate, because when I tell my friends and family that I attend an Eastern parish, they don't fully understand what I mean.  Interestingly enough, the Protestants I know make little distinction between Western Catholic and Orthodox, whereas the Catholics I know see Eastern Christianity (be it EO or EC) as strange, old-fashioned or bizarre.   

The first time I went to an Eastern liturgy (was at a Ruthenian Catholic parish) rather than wondering if this were a Catholic church or not, I fully recognized it as such.  To me, it was much more Catholic than many of the Latin Rite parishes I had attended previously, which seemd more Protestant than anything remotely Latin Catholic. 

Offline The young fogey

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Re: A liturgical shock
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2006, 11:44:33 AM »
I do think that most Latin Rite Catholics get into this "Latin Rite = the Church" mentality.  It's unfortunate, because when I tell my friends and family that I attend an Eastern parish, they don't fully understand what I mean.  Interestingly enough, the Protestants I know make little distinction between Western Catholic and Orthodox

All true.

whereas the Catholics I know see Eastern Christianity (be it EO or EC) as strange, old-fashioned or bizarre.


True but 'old-fashioned' is a strength not a weakness.   

The first time I went to an Eastern liturgy (was at a Ruthenian Catholic parish) rather than wondering if this were a Catholic church or not, I fully recognized it as such.  To me, it was much more Catholic than many of the Latin Rite parishes I had attended previously, which seemd more Protestant than anything remotely Latin Catholic. 

Ditto regarding the first Byzantine Liturgy I ever went to, at a Ukrainian Catholic church, 21 years ago.
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