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Author Topic: Muhammed's underage bride  (Read 10385 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 08, 2006, 06:04:52 AM »

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah's Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine".
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud's Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Confirmed by the following sites...

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

and

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6778

 

A common counter-claim may be that this action was culturally acceptable THEN and not necessarily so, NOW. This is of course to misunderstand the Islamic idea of Muhammad; who is seen as the best example of man, for all time - and Al-lah, an all-knowing god didn't give his laws just for Arabs of the 600s, but for all men, for all time. Even today, based on this example, many Islamic web-sites recommend similar behaviour, thus...

"Question: Is it possible to have intercourse with girls before puberty, would not this physically and mentally harmful to the girl. Is such a thing permissible in Islam, and if it is permissible then what is the minimum age for marriage execution in Islam, since puberty is not a requirement.

Answer: In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Jurists discussed the issue of marrying a girl before puberty, i.e. a girl who might not be able to have sexual intercourse due to her young age.

They agreed that the Wali can marry a girl before puberty. But when she reaches puberty, she has the right to choose either to nullify the marriage contract or to continue her marital life.

Also, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, married `Aishah, may Allah be pleased with her, before she reached the age of puberty.

Hence, we conclude that puberty is not a condition for executing marriage. The only condition is the wife’s ability to bear responsibilities of marital life. However, we do not recommend marriage before puberty because at that early age the girl can’t fulfil her obligations towards her husband properly, nor can she know her rights towards him.

Thus, to avoid any negligence or liability on her part we do not recommend marriage at such an early age.

Allah Almighty knows best.

Dr. Su`aad Ibrahim Salih"

http://www.islam-online.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=YFCeOS

see also:

http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR

and

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22442&dgn=4

and from the same site...

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1493&dgn=4

« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 06:05:23 AM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2006, 07:32:41 AM »

It just makes me sick... Always has, always will.
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 07:40:04 AM »

ditto cleveland!!!
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 07:49:19 AM »

Actually, Muhammed had sexual encounters with Aisha before the earliest mentioned date in the above listed sources. He dreamt of her when she was just a little baby being cradled in his arms, and that was the moment he started desiring her. He furthermore used to engage in a disgusting practise known as "thighing", before he was able to have sexual intercourse with her (i.e. before the marriage was consummated).

For anyone who wants more information, do a search on the thread "The Shame of Islam", which I created at a time when a certain Islamic acquiantence hacked my computer and consequently invaded all the forums that I was involved in.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 07:55:41 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2006, 08:08:38 AM »

Here are the 2 threads EA was referring to.  The first is the "The Shame of Islam" thread that was an outgrowth of the second, "3-way interfaith cooperation in Jerusalem," which was hijacked by the aforementioned acquaintance.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5834.0

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=5739.0
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2006, 10:09:59 AM »

It just makes me sick... Always has, always will.

One question:  Is there such a thing as being under age at all to a Muslim?  I see young boys barely out of diapers carrying home made rifles marching in make believe parades. So maybe anything goes at any age.

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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2006, 10:11:48 AM »

From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."
FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH MUSLIM VOLUME 2, #3309
Aisha reported: Allah's Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine".
FROM THE HADITH OF THE SUNAN OF ABU DAWUD
(Abu Dawud's Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam.)
From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116:
"Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Confirmed by the following sites...

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

and

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6778

 

A common counter-claim may be that this action was culturally acceptable THEN and not necessarily so, NOW. This is of course to misunderstand the Islamic idea of Muhammad; who is seen as the best example of man, for all time - and Al-lah, an all-knowing god didn't give his laws just for Arabs of the 600s, but for all men, for all time. Even today, based on this example, many Islamic web-sites recommend similar behaviour, thus...

"Question: Is it possible to have intercourse with girls before puberty, would not this physically and mentally harmful to the girl. Is such a thing permissible in Islam, and if it is permissible then what is the minimum age for marriage execution in Islam, since puberty is not a requirement.

Answer: In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Jurists discussed the issue of marrying a girl before puberty, i.e. a girl who might not be able to have sexual intercourse due to her young age.

They agreed that the Wali can marry a girl before puberty. But when she reaches puberty, she has the right to choose either to nullify the marriage contract or to continue her marital life.

Also, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, married `Aishah, may Allah be pleased with her, before she reached the age of puberty.

Hence, we conclude that puberty is not a condition for executing marriage. The only condition is the wife’s ability to bear responsibilities of marital life. However, we do not recommend marriage before puberty because at that early age the girl can’t fulfil her obligations towards her husband properly, nor can she know her rights towards him.

Thus, to avoid any negligence or liability on her part we do not recommend marriage at such an early age.

Allah Almighty knows best.

Dr. Su`aad Ibrahim Salih"

http://www.islam-online.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=YFCeOS

see also:

http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR

and

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22442&dgn=4

and from the same site...

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1493&dgn=4



An this is supposedly a messenger from our God?  Their Allah and our God are two different dieties.
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2006, 11:37:26 AM »

Quote
One question:  Is there such a thing as being under age at all to a Muslim?  I see young boys barely out of diapers carrying home made rifles marching in make believe parades. So maybe anything goes at any age.

Religion of Peace..... Roll Eyes How long are we in the 'tolerant' west going to put up with this 'intolerance'? I'm still waiting for our leaders & MSM to call Islam out on the carpet for what it is without the constant fake platitudes & BS that will get us nowhere with these people. For God's sake they still think that Spain still 'rightly' belongs to them and that it's only a matter of time before it's theirs again... Roll Eyes If that's the case, when are they going to give back Constantinople which in my recollection doesn't belong to them?

Hmmm, that bit about Mohamed liking little girls isn't surprising at all. An ex-muslim friend of mine who is now Orthodox were just discussing some interesting 'facts' about islam the other night and I just about fell over laughing when he showed me a passage from a book about "Fiqh" , which is basically a handbook on the proper way to prepare yourself for prayer. In one of the passages where it talks about what renders your cleanliness void before you pray it says this: Sexual intercourse (mere penetration of the tip of the penis into the anus or vagina) with a  BOY, women or ANIMAL renders the ablution void. Discharge of semen need not be taken into consideration.

WTF? Need I say anymore?   Roll Eyes

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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2006, 04:12:32 PM »

Religion of Peace..... Roll Eyes How long are we in the 'tolerant' west going to put up with this 'intolerance'? I'm still waiting for our leaders & MSM to call Islam out on the carpet for what it is without the constant fake platitudes & BS that will get us nowhere with these people. For God's sake they still think that Spain still 'rightly' belongs to them and that it's only a matter of time before it's theirs again... Roll Eyes If that's the case, when are they going to give back Constantinople which in my recollection doesn't belong to them?

Hmmm, that bit about Mohamed liking little girls isn't surprising at all. An ex-muslim friend of mine who is now Orthodox were just discussing some interesting 'facts' about islam the other night and I just about fell over laughing when he showed me a passage from a book about "Fiqh" , which is basically a handbook on the proper way to prepare yourself for prayer. In one of the passages where it talks about what renders your cleanliness void before you pray it says this: Sexual intercourse (mere penetration of the tip of the penis into the anus or vagina) with a  BOY, women or ANIMAL renders the ablution void. Discharge of semen need not be taken into consideration.

WTF? Need I say anymore?   Roll Eyes    

After seeing this all, and reading a small bit of the Quran, I just have to wonder: is the "moderate islam" in this country the exception?  You don't find moderate Islam in Saudi (where it has existed the longest) or Iran (where it has such a strong influence) or Indonesia (the most populous Islamic nation in the world - with 800 million people, there's got to be one or two "moderate moslems" there, right?).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 04:12:40 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2006, 05:27:05 PM »

Maybe y'all should spend an equal amount of time looking for fault among Orthodox as you do 1) casting stones at other religions/cultures which you can't begin to relate to, and 2) rationalizing and dismissing anything that makes you comfortable about your own religion. You might start by taking a look at what Orthodox cultures have thought about marriage agreements binding children under the age of consent (which is rougly equal to puberty), and how much of a say the children had involved, both as children and also when they grew up. It's easy to cast stones at others, why not be consistent and cast them at Orthodox bishops, canonists, etc.? Maybe then you can start some threads about how bad those 17th or 18th century Russians were? You could start by reading something like Eve Levin's Sex and Society Among the Serbs: 900-1700. Or then again, maybe you shouldn't do that, or you might end up like me  Smiley ÂÂ
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2006, 05:44:54 PM »

Are we talking about Islamic Culture, or are we talking about Islamic scripture and sacred writings?  The bible does not advocate pre-pubescent marriage, and our authoritative writings don't either.  But when the Moslems talk about the example that Mohammed set down, that would be the equivelant of our holding up the example of the Apostles (actually, their view of Mohammed is higher than our view of the Apostles, so you would have to take a halfway approach between comparing to the Apostles and WWJD).  I'm the first to admit, and there are many on this site who have no problems doing likewise, that the incarnations of the Truth are not always perfect, and that sometimes the culture around the Church is imperfect.  But comparing 17th century Russian culture to our critique of the practice done by the Prophet himself is a bit misplaced.
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2006, 05:47:04 PM »

Maybe y'all should spend an equal amount of time looking for fault among Orthodox as you do 1) casting stones at other religions/cultures which you can't begin to relate to, and 2) rationalizing and dismissing anything that makes you comfortable about your own religion. You might start by taking a look at what Orthodox cultures have thought about marriage agreements binding children under the age of consent (which is rougly equal to puberty), and how much of a say the children had involved, both as children and also when they grew up. It's easy to cast stones at others, why not be consistent and cast them at Orthodox bishops, canonists, etc.?

Though betrothals have traditionally been allowed to be preformed at an early age by agreement of the parents, our Canonists have long upheld the right of either of the betrothed to break the betrothal prior to the marriage, without ecclesiastical or legal consequence, after their comming of such an age as is sufficient for marriage. Were there cultural and family consequences? Yes, as there would have been in any primitive culture for such things and as there can be consequences within the family today if one marries a person of whom the family does not approve, but the Church has never condoned forced marriages and the Empire has never sanctioned them.
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2006, 04:13:50 AM »

Maybe y'all should spend an equal amount of time looking for fault among Orthodox as you do 1) casting stones at other religions/cultures which you can't begin to relate to, and 2) rationalizing and dismissing anything that makes you comfortable about your own religion. You might start by taking a look at what Orthodox cultures have thought about marriage agreements binding children under the age of consent (which is roughly equal to puberty), and how much of a say the children had involved, both as children and also when they grew up. It's easy to cast stones at others, why not be consistent and cast them at Orthodox bishops, canonists, etc.? Maybe then you can start some threads about how bad those 17th or 18th century Russians were? You could start by reading something like Eve Levin's Sex and Society Among the Serbs: 900-1700. Or then again, maybe you shouldn't do that, or you might end up like me  Smiley  
Do you think that Islam's actions as stated in the OP are wrong? I'd like to know how you believe a critique of Islam could be negated by a critique of Orthodoxy - are you suggesting some kind of cosmic cancelling each other out?

What (in the book you mention) shows that Christians did something comparable based on their understanding of the teachings of Christ?* (note also my OP has evidence from modern Islamic advice sites - how is this comparable to a book dealing with things hundreds of years ago? )
For instance I have a book called "Sexual Life in England" by Ivan Bloch which examines the history of sex there. No where does it say that, for instance, incest was practiced BECAUSE of their religious beliefs.

There is thus no connection between the evil deeds in a 'Christian' country, and Christianity itself. Compare this to my OP where I've cited Islamic primary sources, and show how it's viewed today.

Your post needs a lot more work.


*I ask this because
a) you seem to know something 'shameful' but don't actually state what it is
b) you seem to be pleading for people here to go research and prove you correct
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2006, 04:15:11 AM »

An this is supposedly a messenger from our God?  Their Allah and our God are two different dieties.

Indeed. And when the late JPII said that 'we' (Christians and Moslems) worship the same God, I shuddered. Islam is not from God.
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2006, 04:16:17 AM »

Though betrothals have traditionally been allowed to be preformed at an early age by agreement of the parents, our Canonists have long upheld the right of either of the betrothed to break the betrothal prior to the marriage, without ecclesiastical or legal consequence, after their comming of such an age as is sufficient for marriage. Were there cultural and family consequences? Yes, as there would have been in any primitive culture for such things and as there can be consequences within the family today if one marries a person of whom the family does not approve, but the Church has never condoned forced marriages and the Empire has never sanctioned them.

If he can connect the dots in his argument by
a) presenting an actual account of something bad
and
b) how it relates to Christianity

he'd be on his way to having a rational argument.
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2006, 07:28:51 AM »

An this is supposedly a messenger from our God?  Their Allah and our God are two different dieties.


To paraphrase my bishop, Metropolitan MAXIMOS, anyone who says that the moslems worship the same god that we do preaches heresy; the difference is easy - the god of Islam has no love.  Our God is a god of Love.  
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« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2006, 06:51:11 AM »

Maybe y'all should spend an equal amount of time looking for fault among Orthodox as you do 1) casting stones at other religions/cultures which you can't begin to relate to, and 2) rationalizing and dismissing anything that makes you comfortable about your own religion. You might start by taking a look at what Orthodox cultures have thought about marriage agreements binding children under the age of consent (which is rougly equal to puberty), and how much of a say the children had involved, both as children and also when they grew up. It's easy to cast stones at others, why not be consistent and cast them at Orthodox bishops, canonists, etc.? Maybe then you can start some threads about how bad those 17th or 18th century Russians were? You could start by reading something like Eve Levin's Sex and Society Among the Serbs: 900-1700. Or then again, maybe you shouldn't do that, or you might end up like me  Smiley ÂÂ

I'm still looking forward to a reply, wherein you might construct an argument against Christainity, and state how this negates the OP
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« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2006, 09:07:18 AM »

How you dare criticize the acts of the most holy Prophet of Allah!!!!
Hmmm, I think you have the wicked intention to present him as a pervert!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2006, 10:17:36 AM »

This makes me want to throw up.  And curl up in a ball for reasons I wont go into.  They TEACH this as ok?  Angry

This is not a reaction the religion it is a reaction to a man doing something like that to a child.
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« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2006, 03:01:29 PM »

Maybe y'all should spend an equal amount of time looking for fault among Orthodox as you do 1) casting stones at other religions/cultures which you can't begin to relate to, and 2) rationalizing and dismissing anything that makes you comfortable about your own religion. You might start by taking a look at what Orthodox cultures have thought about marriage agreements binding children under the age of consent (which is rougly equal to puberty), and how much of a say the children had involved, both as children and also when they grew up. It's easy to cast stones at others, why not be consistent and cast them at Orthodox bishops, canonists, etc.? Maybe then you can start some threads about how bad those 17th or 18th century Russians were? You could start by reading something like Eve Levin's Sex and Society Among the Serbs: 900-1700. Or then again, maybe you shouldn't do that, or you might end up like me  Smiley  

Well you might raise some valid points there. But the point here is that this is the action of Islam's founder, and is not just the random actions of some Imams or regular Muslims.
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2006, 03:03:20 PM »

This makes me want to throw up.  And curl up in a ball for reasons I wont go into.  They TEACH this as ok?  Angry

This is not a reaction the religion it is a reaction to a man doing something like that to a child.

The saddest thing is, that man made that religion, and they follow his example  Undecided
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2006, 03:34:15 PM »

Quote
You could start by reading something like Eve Levin's Sex and Society Among the Serbs: 900-1700. Or then again, maybe you shouldn't do that, or you might end up like me    

You mean every culture doesn't like to have a good time....for a millenium??  Wink  Grin

You might also want to read the lives of the Serbian saints, including the entire family of Karadjordjevic (and their predicessors), from which came over a dozen saints, who RULED Serbia and fought every day of their lives for as long as that dynasty ruled (over 400 years) against such things.  But you can't control every noble in the land, hence why Kosovo happened.  

I don't mind if Serbs are used as examples for stupid things.  We make stupid mistakes and i'll be the FIRST to say it.  However, I would appreciate it if you would talk about the whole picture, especially if you are going to use my people as an example.  

If you don't know the whole picture, then I can't appreciate what you're going to say and i'll be forced to ignore you, which would be sad and something which i'm not looking to do.  
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« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2006, 09:29:02 PM »

But when the Moslems talk about the example that Mohammed set down, that would be the equivelant of our holding up the example of the Apostles (actually, their view of Mohammed is higher than our view of the Apostles, so you would have to take a halfway approach between comparing to the Apostles and WWJD).

Although there is most certainly no conception within Islam of Mohammed being anything more than a mere prophet (i.e. a mere man/human), in terms of morality, he would be considered on par with how Christ is considered within Christianity i.e. as the perfect moral exemplar (many Muslims would in fact go to the extent of declaring Muhammad sinless — the doctrinal principle of isma). Compare the following two verses:

"Surely in the Messenger of God [Mohammed] you have a good example” Surah 33:21

“I [The Lord Christ] have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.” John 13:15

Now understand that the difference between a genuine Muslim* and a sincere Christian, is the difference between a terrorist progressing towards the likeness of Satan, and a Saint progressing towards the likeness of God.

*I use the term genuine Muslim in this context to denote one who strictly follows and adheres to the precepts and principles of traditional Islam, which allow and at times require the enactment of the many evils taught and practiced by Mohammed, the Islamic paradigm and moral exemplar. I do not use the term in reference to a genuine Muslim who follows a falsely interpreted Islam that leads him/her to believe that he/she must practice basic Christian virtues of love, tolerance, and peace, under the genuine impression that this is the true interpretation of Islam. I used to debate both the former and the latter type of Islamics, but have since had a change of position on the latter type. If they are convinced that virtues of love, peace, tolerance and kindness are divinely instituted principles and expected of God's creation, even if such beliefs stem from within a false religious framework, according to a false interpretation of that religion, then it is better for one to just pray for them.
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2006, 12:24:19 AM »

Thanks for the ref EA.  I should be better read on the Quran than I am.
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2006, 12:26:19 AM »

Well you might raise some valid points there. But the point here is that this is the action of Islam's founder, and is not just the random actions of some Imams or regular Muslims.

That's it exactly! There's a difference some people fail to spot.

If Buddha said 'be peaceful' and I as a Buddhist (if I were one), went out and killed a number of people in the name of Buddha, there could be no connection between Buddhism and what I did, despite my claims.

They should remember that Muhammed is deemed a great example of humanity…

"The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;"

http://www.missionislam.com/youth/muhammad.htm

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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2006, 10:39:01 AM »

Yah but how does that fit into things that the Quran says, like killing people?  That seems like a contradiction which really can't be solved?  What are you going to do as a muslim, follow one or the other?  

Which one is more correct?  Which one is in the "spirit" of the Qumran?  In my opinion, both are.  Parts of the Quran are very peaceful and talk about living righteously, others talk about killing, so then it becomes up to personal interpretation.  We all know what that can lead to... Huh
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2006, 10:56:44 AM »

Yah but how does that fit into things that the Quran says, like killing people?  That seems like a contradiction which really can't be solved? ÂÂ

There can only be a contradiction between a) Muhammed is the perfect moral example, and b) Muhammed taught and practised murder, if murder is assumed to be an immoral act. According to Christianity, and Natural Law, murder is indeed an immoral act. According to Islam, it is a religious and moral obligation. Thus, within an Islamic religious framework there is no contradiction.

Quote
Which one is in the "spirit" of the Qumran?


It's Qur'an, not Qumran. The former is the book of Satan, the latter is a geographical location where Biblical scrolls were discovered.  Wink

Quote
Parts of the Quran are very peaceful and talk about living righteously, others talk about killing, so then it becomes up to personal interpretation.  We all know what that can lead to...


According to Islamic doctrine, the principle of "Abrogation" solves this apparent contradiction, by dictating that all the "later" verses (i.e. those allegedly inspired during Muhammed's days in Madina) abrogate or "cancel" out the former verses (i.e. those allegedly inspired during Muhammed's sucking up days in Mecca). Therefore, the traditional and genuine Muslim (as defined per my previous post) will ignore all the "good" verses.
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2006, 11:07:04 AM »

Quote
According to Islamic doctrine, the principle of "Abrogation" solves this apparent contradiction, by dictating that all the "later" verses (i.e. those allegedly inspired during Muhammed's days in Madina) abrogate or "cancel" out the former verses (i.e. those allegedly inspired during Muhammed's sucking up days in Mecca). Therefore, the traditional and genuine Muslim (as defined per my previous post) will ignore all the "good" verses.

No way....I need to brush up on my Islam...maybe I should read their theological texts.  i've only read the Qur'an, so my knowledge is a little limited.  Sorry about the typo, I had a midterm in which I had to use Qumran  Wink

I would write more, but i'm so dumbfounded by what you said that I can't.  

How practiced is this "abrogation" ?? Is it a mainline theological thing, or is it just an interpretation?  
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2006, 11:14:44 AM »

Abrogation is a doctrinal principle supported by the Qur'an, the Hadiths, and reputable Islamic scholarship. I could discuss the issue in-depth with you if you like, but wouldn't you rather hear about how Muhammed waxed his legs and wore a skirt?
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2006, 11:19:31 AM »

"rather" is such a relative world.... Wink Grin

I would love to hear if and when Muhamad waxed his legs, but I wouldn't want anything to happen to either of us.  Maybe you could PM me that info  Wink

Could you tell me more about this "doctrinal principle" and what "doctrinal principle" means to Muslims and in the Islam religion?  

To be honest I didn't realize that they HAD doctrinal principles but hey...live and learn  
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« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2006, 11:21:20 AM »

but wouldn't you rather hear about how Muhammed waxed his legs and wore a skirt?

Yes Wink
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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2006, 12:00:26 PM »

"rather" is such a relative world.... Wink Grin

I would love to hear if and when Muhamad waxed his legs, but I wouldn't want anything to happen to either of us.  Maybe you could PM me that info  Wink

I'm more worried about GiC getting any strange ideas, than either of us getting into trouble; aren't you?

Unfortunately the relevant weblink is not opening properly on my computer in order that I may re-read and recall the circumstances behind Muhammed's leg waxing adventures (I think I may have to re-install my arabic fonts). However, do not despair; rest assured that Muhammed did indeed wax his legs, and the proof is here:

http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=185&CID=14

The website at the above link is in fact hosted by the second greatest Islamic University in the world - Al-Madina Al-Munawarr University in Saudi Arabia. They're obviously quite proud of this. Once I get the link working on my PC, I will attempt a rough translation of the relevant section.

With respect to Muhammed wearing a skirt, you can find the relevant hadith at the following weblink:

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=2393&doc=0

The circumstances surrounding this one I can recall from memory. Muhammed was having a certain dispute with his wives, since they were jealous of the apparent favouritism he constantly expressed towards one in particular - Aisha (the child-bride). In attempting to justify his favouritism towards her, he explains to them that he never received a divine revelation when wearing a woman's skirt, except when he wore the skirt of Aisha. ÂÂ

Quote
Could you tell me more about this "doctrinal principle" and what "doctrinal principle" means to Muslims and in the Islam religion? ÂÂ


I'm not sure what there is explain. The Christian understanding of the New Testament as a fulfillment of the Old Testament, would be a "doctrinal principle" or a "doctrinal truth" unique to Christianity. Those who deny this doctrinal principle are heretics (e.g. the Jews and the Marcionites, since the former reject the NT and the latter reject the OT). Likewise, the understanding that certain verses in the Qur'an cancel out other verses, is a doctrinal truth within Islam - it has vital implications with respect to expected and acceptable forms of Muslim behaviour and worship. It is a principle, which as I said, is grounded in the Qur'an, Hadith literature, and Islamic scholarship.

Here is the take of 13th century Islamic scholar Ibn Kathir on the issue of Abrogation:

Quote
"Abrogation is a principle that is confirmed sometimes by...anulling the law as in the case of...abrogating the command that the Muslim ought to have patience with the non-believers in battle...[Abrogation] also involves changing that which is prohibited to that which is permissable, and vice versa. Abrogation may only apply to commandments, permissions and prohibitions. As for facts of history or other, or affirmative information, it doesn't apply."

(Tafsir Ibn Kathir, abridged by Sheikh Ar-Rafa, part 1, page 204)


Ibn Kathir to Orthodox Islam is like St Athanasios to Orthodox Christianity. In fact, he is probably considered even greater.
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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2006, 01:42:36 PM »

P.S. The GiC comment was merely a joke in response to his very quick reply to my initial offer to serb1389; I just like to tease him  Wink...or anyone for that matter, including myself if the occasion calls for it. Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2006, 07:49:36 PM »

No way....I need to brush up on my Islam...maybe I should read their theological texts.  i've only read the Qur'an, so my knowledge is a little limited.  Sorry about the typo, I had a midterm in which I had to use Qumran  Wink

I would write more, but i'm so dumbfounded by what you said that I can't. ÂÂ

How practiced is this "abrogation" ?? Is it a mainline theological thing, or is it just an interpretation? ÂÂ

The Koran was authored by Muhammed over several decades. (His authorship is shown by certain verses; see Appendix below). When he started out having visions he preached peace and harmony. And he was persecuted. He fled to Medina, gained in power and his 'revelations' became more violent. When his followers pointed out that there was inconsistancy within his revleations he came up with the idea of 'abrogation' which he explained that al-lah had given him a 'better' revelation than what they had previously... this means that latter verses that contradict earlier verses superseed them. Thus you need to know when the verses were revelaed; and the Koran is not ordered based on this, but rather on the lengths of the chapters.

Most Moslem apologists quote "There is no compulsion in religion" as a sign that the Koran is a peaceful book (ignoring that the Koran also calls for the death of anyone who converts from Islam)

Muhammed spends much time talking of hate and war and violence.
"As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them." (47:8 )


"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (4:74,76)
"The believers who stay at home (apart from those that suffer a grave impediment) are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (4:95,96)
"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (9:5)
"Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them ..." (5:34,35)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme" (8:39)
"Prophet, rouse the faithful to arms. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding." (8:65)
"Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4:52:73)
"Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'When the slave runs away from his master, his prayer is not accepted; he is an infidel.'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 32)
"The Prophet (Muhammed) said: 'Then go to the persons who do not join the congregational prayer and order their homes to be burnt...'"
(Hadith No. Muslim 234)
"Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 9:83:17)
"The Prophet (Muhammad) said: 'Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child.' After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried."
(Hadith No. Muslim 682)
"Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa', the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina."
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)
"Narrated Anas: 'Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet (Muhammed) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.'"
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794)






Appendix

The Koran is supposed to be the unaltered words of their god al-lah.


"According to Muslim belief, the Koran is the eternal, unaltered Word of God, which has remained the same for 14 centuries."
http://www.geocities.com/islampencereleri3/querying_the_koran.htm



"For the first time in history, we have a built-in proof that a scripture (Quran) is the unaltered, original and complete word of God. A proof that is verifiable by anyone"

http://www.angelfire.com/az2/submission/proof.html



They believe it's never been altered and is word for word what their god actually said. This is refuted by the Koran itself which has Muhammed adding his own voice to it.



Some people have raised on other posts issues such as the incompleteness of the Koran (Hadith refer to Suras that don't exist in the Koran).

 

I am interested in the authorship of the Koran; it is claimed by some to be only the word-for-word utterances of al-lah

 The very beginning of the Koran states...

1   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

2   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

3   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

4   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)

5   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).

6   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ Guide us to the Straight Way

7   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).

Clearly these are the words of Muhammed, speaking to and about Al-lah, they are not the words of al-lah.

 

6:114   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

"Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Qur'an), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.

These too, are the words of Muhammed.

 

Even more clear, is where Muhammed names himself…

6: 101 ÂÂ  He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .

102   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Such is Allah, your Lord! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakil (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.

103   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, WellAcquainted with all things.

104   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.

 

Note here the word (Muhammed) is placed there by the Moslems

http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=6

Not, by me. Another verse also has Muhammed ….

51: 50 ÂÂ  So flee to Allah (from His Torment to His Mercy Islamic Monotheism), verily, I (Muhammad ) am a plain warner to you from Him.

 

Obviously Muhammed forgot that he’s not meant to be the author of the Koran.

He gets even more confused when it’s angels now narrating…

37: 161 So, verily you (pagans) and those whom you worship (idols).

162   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Cannot lead astray [turn away from Him (Allah) anyone of the believers],

163   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Except those who are predestined to burn in Hell!

164   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  There is not one of us (angels) but has his known place (or position);

165   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Verily, we (angels), we stand in rows for the prayers (as you Muslims stand in rows for your prayers);

166   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Verily, we (angels), we are they who glorify (Allah's Praises i.e. perform prayers).

 

Muhammed is the author of the Koran, and occasionally he forgot that he wasn’t supposed to be, but he made a few slip-ups.
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« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2006, 07:59:33 PM »

Don't we believe that the Virgin Mary was in her early teens while Joseph was much older?
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2006, 09:33:16 PM »

Don't we believe that the Virgin Mary was in her early teens while Joseph was much older?
No 'we' don't. How does this anyway relate to Moslems marrying girls who aren't even at puberty anyway?

Have we met before on another forum? I've argued with someone using your icon. I was posting under the same name with the same icon.
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2006, 09:43:33 PM »

Well, Orthodoxy does believe she was in her teens when Joseph was much older, but not as a dogmatic principle; and she wasn't pre-pubescent, which puts that situation in a different ballpark.
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2006, 02:23:49 AM »

Well, Orthodoxy does believe she was in her teens when Joseph was much older, but not as a dogmatic principle; and she wasn't pre-pubescent, which puts that situation in a different ballpark.

Do you have a citation?
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2006, 02:33:37 AM »

Quote
Do you have a citation?

The life of the Theotokos as published by our good friends in buena vista...
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« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2006, 02:46:27 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111117#msg111117 date=1142145217]
The life of the Theotokos as published by our good friends in buena vista...
[/quote]
Do you have a net citation? I can't find this 'book' of yours on the net
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« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2006, 02:51:39 AM »

As noted earlier the only thing I'm aware on, re Mary's age is an unreliable source...
The Age of Mary
It will not be without interest to recall here, unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph's marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm
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« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2006, 02:52:50 AM »

1) It's true that according to Jewish cultural norms at the time, girls would have been married in their teens, however we must remember that this was a cultural norm, and not a religious principle. Jewish cultural norms do not dictate Christian standards of living. The fact however that Muhammed, the Prophet of Islam, not only engaged in the practise of marrying a pre-pubescent teen, but was in fact divinely inspired to do so, sets a religious precedent in the islamic world. Thus, we find that such a harmful practise continues till this very day in Islamic societies.

2) The Jewish cultural norm was in fact alot superior to the guideliness to marrying a teen according to Islamic sources. According to Jewish culture at that time, girls were married a few years after they hit puberty, whereas the Islamic tradition dictates that one may marry a girl once she has her first menarche.
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« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2006, 02:59:08 AM »

Montalban,

Ofcourse an RC source is going to claim that this apocrypha is unreliable with respect to historical issues surrounding Joseph and Mary, since they also reject the very idea that Joseph was previously married (which the Orthodox uphold as true tradition). In any event, I believe certain Church Fathers spoke of St Mary being around 14 years old when betrothed to Joseph; scholarship says 12 at the earliest, and 14 at the latest.
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« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2006, 03:11:23 AM »

Quote
Do you have a net citation? I can't find this 'book' of yours on the net

Typical internet apologist... if a quick google search doesn't yield results IT MUST NOT BE REAL!  FWIW http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0944359035/102-0568811-0339369?v=glance&n=283155

There actually is a refrenced to the age of St. Joseph being older in the liturgical texts:

Ἀπεγράφετο ποτέ, σὺν τῶ πρεσβύτη Ἰωσήφ, ὡς ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυϊδ, ἐν Βηθλεὲμ ἡ Μαριάμ, κυοφοροῦσα τὴν ἄσπορον κυοφορίαν, Ἐπέστη δὲ καιρὸς ὁ τῆς Γεννήσεως, καὶ τόπος ἣν οὐδεὶς τῶ καταλύματι, ἀλλ' ὡς τερπνὸν παλάτιον τὸ Σπήλαιον, τὴ Βασιλίδι ἐδείκνυτο, Χριστὸς γεννᾶται τὴν πρὶν πεσοῦσαν, ἀναστήσων εἰκόνα.
 
from http://www.tcgalaska.com/glt/Polytonic/texts/Dec/24.uni.htm

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« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2006, 04:44:15 AM »

1) It's true that according to Jewish cultural norms at the time, girls would have been married in their teens, however we must remember that this was a cultural norm, and not a religious principle. Jewish cultural norms do not dictate Christian standards of living. The fact however that Muhammed, the Prophet of Islam, not only engaged in the practise of marrying a pre-pubescent teen, but was in fact divinely inspired to do so, sets a religious precedent in the islamic world. Thus, we find that such a harmful practise continues till this very day in Islamic societies.
In defence of the Jews I must note that they agreed to early betrothals.
2) The Jewish cultural norm was in fact alot superior to the guideliness to marrying a teen according to Islamic sources. According to Jewish culture at that time, girls were married a few years after they hit puberty, whereas the Islamic tradition dictates that one may marry a girl once she has her first menarche.
The 'evidence' for Mary's early marriage is minimal
Montalban,

Ofcourse an RC source is going to claim that this apocrypha is unreliable with respect to historical issues surrounding Joseph and Mary, since they also reject the very idea that Joseph was previously married (which the Orthodox uphold as true tradition). In any event, I believe certain Church Fathers spoke of St Mary being around 14 years old when betrothed to Joseph; scholarship says 12 at the earliest, and 14 at the latest.

There's two issues here really, one that Joseph was married earlier, and two the young age of Mary. The evidence that Mary was young stems from one source that is not widely recognised, RCC or Orthodox
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« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2006, 04:51:37 AM »

Typical internet apologist... if a quick google search doesn't yield results IT MUST NOT BE REAL!  FWIW http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0944359035/102-0568811-0339369?v=glance&n=283155

There actually is a refrenced to the age of St. Joseph being older in the liturgical texts:
Typical? I've not questioned that your souce is 'real' or not, but only stated that I couldn't find it. You cite a bookshop that has a book. So far that's hear-say; you mention that a book that might support your theory on an early age of Mary.

I've cited the only work I know on the issue (note I've given the text and a link). And it's not widely accepted (by most Chistians) as being genuine - due to when it was written. Does your 'source' accept Mary's age as being young?

Let's look at what we do know...
"When Mary turned fourteen, Zaccharia told her, “It is customary for all young maidens at your age to marry.” That night an angel appeared to the old priest in a dream and said, “Do not worry, Zaccharia. Tomorrow have each suitor bring with him a staff. The Holy Spirit will give a sign as to who shall be Mary’s husband.”

The next day the suitors crowded into the Temple, each holding a staff in his hand. Kneeling, they prayed for a sign. All at once a lily was seen to bloom from the staff held by the widower Joseph, a builder and carpenter. And then a snow white dove alighted upon the staff before flying off. “How can it be that the Lord has chosen me?” Joseph said, astonished “I have been widowed for some time and have sons nearly as old as this tender young girl.” But Zaccharia shook his head “The Lord has given a sign, Joseph.” And turning to Mary the priest asked “Mary what is your wish?” Moved by the events and Joseph’s humble words, Mary extended her hand to Joseph, saying, “I accept.”

That day the marriage contract was signed, and in twelve months the wedding ceremony would be celebrated. In the meantime, Mary returned to her parents while Joseph departed for a distant town where he was about to begin work on the building of a Temple. The commission was a great honour, but it would separate the couple for nearly a year."
http://www.sol.com.au/kor/21_01.htm

Can you do maths? That already brings her age up to 15, not 12, and certainly not 9 as with Aisha. So given it's not widely accepted and pseudepigraphical, but even if accords her an older age then that of Aisha, what is your point?
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« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2006, 06:20:11 AM »

Quote
In defence of the Jews I must note that they agreed to early betrothals.

And St Mary was a Jew; hence she would have been betrothed at an early age, probably within the range of 12—14 years old, which is alot more defendable than the Islamic standard.

Quote
There's two issues here really, one that Joseph was married earlier, and two the young age of Mary.

My point is that the source in question accounts for both facts; that the former fact is denied by the RCC which holds St Joseph to have been a virgin, indicates a bias against recognising any other historical point affirmed by that source.

Quote
The evidence that Mary was young stems from one source that is not widely recognised

You’re being equivocal; apocryphal NT books may not be considered canonical, but they nonetheless support a range of Orthodox traditions, and are at times appealed to with respect to such traditions. According to a well-referenced online RC article:

"When she was fourteen, the high priest wished to send her home for marriage…We have already seen that St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Germanus of Constantinople, and pseudo-Gregory Nazianzen seem to adopt these legends.”

Source: http://www.pax-et-veritas.org/BVM/bvm.htm[/quote]

According to this claim, certain Fathers followed the apocryphal tradition on this particular issue. Unfortunately no reference is given for this particular claim, but considering that the article you link us to in your response to Nektarios is also written by an unknown author who does not even bother providing references, then I’m assuming you will have no problem accepting this source.

In any event, as noted above, it is irrelevant whether or not her age is directly mentioned or implied in any credible historical source. Being a devout Jew, St Mary would have lived in conformity with traditional Jewish norms of the time, which included early marriage. You would have to come up with a substantial reason as to why St Mary would have abandoned these Jewish norms.

Quote
Can you do maths? That already brings her age up to 15 not 12, and certainly not 9 as with Aisha.

No one has suggested that St Mary was 9; she most certainly could have been 12, but even then we are talking about betrothal, not marriage. As I have argued all along however, this is not damaging to our case against Islam.

According to Islam, the female does not even have to be 9 years old to be married; she could be 8 or 7 even, as long as she has had her first menarche; this is because Islam erroneously equates the commencement of sexual maturity or puberty with the time when a female has her first menarche, which is medically incorrect. According to Jewish tradition, the female has been in puberty for at least 2-3 years before she is given over to marriage. The earliest suggested date for betrothal is 12 years old, which means the earliest suggested date for marriage is 13.

"In the first century betrothal could take place starting at the age of twelve. Mary's age is unstated. It is during this betrothal stage that Gabriel breaks the news."
 
Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=3&source=1&seq=i.49.1.4

According to Professor Matthew Keener:

“Jewish women were often betrothed as young as twelve or fourteen, upon reaching puberty…Joseph and Mary like most of their Jewish contemporaries, practiced sexual restraint before their marriage. A couple would normally marry a year after their betrothal.”

Source: A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, pages 88-89

Ofcourse, St Mary and Joseph practiced sexual restraint throughout their whole lives together (since St Mary is the ever-virgin), however the point is that according to Jewish cultural norms, the earliest date that a girl could have been exposed to sexual activity is the age of 13, which a completely different story to Islam’s standard of “whenever she has her first menarche” which could occur as early as the age of 7.
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« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2006, 06:26:37 AM »

And St Mary was a Jew; hence she would have been betrothed at an early age, probably within the range of 12—14 years old, which is alot more defendable than the Islamic standard.

My point is that the source in question accounts for both facts; that the former fact is denied by the RCC which holds St Joseph to have been a virgin, indicates a bias against recognising any other historical point affirmed by that source.

You’re being equivocal; apocryphal NT books may not be considered canonical, but they nonetheless support a range of Orthodox traditions, and are at times appealed to with respect to such traditions.
The particular source I cited is NOT accepted, it is considered pseudepigraphical

Anyway, in large part we are in agreement, insofar as this is a totally different example from the Islamic one; which is why my 'maths' quip is directed to Νεκτάριος
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« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2006, 12:02:22 PM »

Quote
Typical? I've not questioned that your souce is 'real' or not, but only stated that I couldn't find it. You cite a bookshop that has a book. So far that's hear-say; you mention that a book that might support your theory on an early age of Mary.

I've cited the only work I know on the issue (note I've given the text and a link). And it's not widely accepted (by most Chistians) as being genuine - due to when it was written. Does your 'source' accept Mary's age as being young?

Why do you constantly feel the need to refer to the book as the 'book' or my 'source'?  Simply because your research on the topic is scanty doesn't mean that the sources I cite need to be put in quotations.  

Whether Panagia was 12 or 15, the point is still the same that in Orthodox tradition she was very young and St. Joseph was much older.  I noticed you conviently skipped over my other citation about the age of Joseph.  If you want sources look at the liturgical texts surrounding Christmas, the presentation of the Theotokos in the temple and other relevant feasts: http://www.tcgalaska.com/glt/Polytonic/

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« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2006, 02:40:48 PM »

Quote
And St Mary was a Jew; hence she would have been betrothed at an early age, probably within the range of 12—14 years old, which is alot more defendable than the Islamic standard.

Oh really? Is that what you are going to argue in court, that forcing a 12 or 15 year old (whether by physical force, coersion, lies, or whatever else) into a sexual encounter is more defensible than forcing a 9 or 10 year old? Mary might have had a choice and she might not have; 99.9% of Jews in her position would not have had a choice. Even in Orthodox countries people were often not given a choice. The part of the liturgy about asking people if they were entering a marriage of their own free will was, for many centuries, a complete fiction. Oh yeah, you could say "No, I don't want to get married". Yeah, and you'd get beaten for the rest of your life, or perhaps die a few weeks later from starvation or freezing to death because you got thrown out of the house for "disgracing the family". There is abuse today, both physical and sexual, there is coersion today, and there are hundreds of thousands of homeless today; if you think it was better in 13th century wherever because it was "Orthodox" then you are dreaming. And much like slavery, the Church either looked past it as a necessary evil, or tried to curb it as much as possible by making laws that regulated--but simultaneously tacitly approved--unbelievably evil conduct.
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« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2006, 03:10:48 PM »

Oh really? Is that what you are going to argue in court, that forcing a 12 or 15 year old (whether by physical force, coersion, lies, or whatever else) into a sexual encounter is more defensible than forcing a 9 or 10 year old? Mary might have had a choice and she might not have; 99.9% of Jews in her position would not have had a choice. Even in Orthodox countries people were often not given a choice. The part of the liturgy about asking people if they were entering a marriage of their own free will was, for many centuries, a complete fiction. Oh yeah, you could say "No, I don't want to get married". Yeah, and you'd get beaten for the rest of your life, or perhaps die a few weeks later from starvation or freezing to death because you got thrown out of the house for "disgracing the family". There is abuse today, both physical and sexual, there is coersion today, and there are hundreds of thousands of homeless today; if you think it was better in 13th century wherever because it was "Orthodox" then you are dreaming. And much like slavery, the Church either looked past it as a necessary evil, or tried to curb it as much as possible by making laws that regulated--but simultaneously tacitly approved--unbelievably evil conduct.

Thought this was a cultural reality for much of the world in the 13th Century, there is a fundamental difference between the Christian and the Moslem approach. We never condoned this kind of action, we simply tolerated the existing culture...Islam, on the other hand, embraced this culture and made it a part of their religion, thus while we would look upon such actions in disgust and openly condemn them today, Islam upholds them as standards of virtue and tries to force these conditions on people even in the modern world.
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« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2006, 03:28:16 PM »

There was a thread before on violence in the OT in comparison to the violence in Islam, but I couldn't follow everything. It was very in-depth.

So, simply, what would I tell people who say that just as Islam's god ordered killing of thousands, the God of the Bible also ordered killings of thousands of people....ie. Jerichom what was that all about!? I truly donm't understand and thats why when any priest or layperson asks me to read the bible, I refuse to read the OT. All I read about in the OT is killing and stealing pagan's riches- or not stealing it because it is "defiled."

How is it that say, one of our pagan ancestors who was a "good pagan" who woudl sacrifice to Apollo or Athena for example as they were taught and say the Jewish army on command from God, was ordered to kill the whole city, elders, and babies, how can God do that?

Except for the Psalms and the prophecies, the OT history makes me sick and i know its wrong but I can't justify murder coming from God...
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« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2006, 03:52:43 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111171#msg111171 date=1142179342]
Why do you constantly feel the need to refer to the book as the 'book' or my 'source'?  Simply because your research on the topic is scanty doesn't mean that the sources I cite need to be put in quotations. ÂÂ

Whether Panagia was 12 or 15, the point is still the same that in Orthodox tradition she was very young and St. Joseph was much older.  I noticed you conviently skipped over my other citation about the age of Joseph.  If you want sources look at the liturgical texts surrounding Christmas, the presentation of the Theotokos in the temple and other relevant feasts: http://www.tcgalaska.com/glt/Polytonic/


[/quote]
Yes, I know it can be trying to actually provide evidence. It's so trying that you've in fact ignored that I've already dealt with the presentation in the temple (even though you'd not named it), in post #45.

The fact is she was in her mid-teens (according to this one unreliable source) and it's got no relevance to the debate over Aisha who was only nine.
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« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2006, 03:55:20 PM »

No 'we' don't.

Calm down, friend. Calm down.

Peace.
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« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2006, 03:55:20 PM »

There was a thread before on violence in the OT in comparison to the violence in Islam, but I couldn't follow everything. It was very in-depth.

So, simply, what would I tell people who say that just as Islam's god ordered killing of thousands, the God of the Bible also ordered killings of thousands of people....ie. Jerichom what was that all about!? I truly donm't understand and thats why when any priest or layperson asks me to read the bible, I refuse to read the OT. All I read about in the OT is killing and stealing pagan's riches- or not stealing it because it is "defiled."

How is it that say, one of our pagan ancestors who was a "good pagan" who woudl sacrifice to Apollo or Athena for example as they were taught and say the Jewish army on command from God, was ordered to kill the whole city, elders, and babies, how can God do that?

Except for the Psalms and the prophecies, the OT history makes me sick and i know its wrong but I can't justify murder coming from God...

One difference is is in the fact that the OT was (much of it) for its time. Thus we Christians are free to eat pork, etc, despite the OT commands for it.
If you found Jesus encouraging us to continue with violence, you'd have a good parallel to Islam, where-in there's no 'NT' of the Koran; there's no one coming after Muhammed to modify their behaviour - so for them, killing non-believers is still in force
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« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2006, 03:56:53 PM »

Perhaps you missed it, but I posted relevant liturgical texts already.  So either the liturgical texts in question are wrong or you are.  You seem to be ignoring the actual texts though - perhaps daffy duck doesn't read Greek?
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« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2006, 03:57:54 PM »

Calm down, friend. Calm down.

Peace.
How is telling you we don't not being calm?
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« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2006, 03:59:15 PM »

How is telling you we don't not being calm?

I am sorry but you are incorrect. The reason why the Gospels refer to Jesus' brothers and sisters is because they were children of Joseph's previous marriage, because he was substantially older than Mary.

Peace.
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« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2006, 03:59:53 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111186#msg111186 date=1142193413]
Perhaps you missed it, but I posted relevant liturgical texts already.  So either the liturgical texts in question are wrong or you are.  You seem to be ignoring the actual texts though - perhaps daffy duck doesn't read Greek?
[/quote]
I'm not ignoring the text. I stated it's pseudepigraphical. I've also asked you to show how this is comprable to Aisha's case where she wasn't even at the age of puberty. In fact others have pointed this out to, but you ignore them too.

As for Greek, ni thuigmn (I don't understand it - in Irish Smiley )
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« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2006, 04:03:59 PM »

I am sorry but you are incorrect. The reason why the Gospels refer to Jesus' brothers and sisters is because they were children of Joseph's previous marriage, because he was substantially older than Mary.

Peace.
You asked don't we believe that Mary was in her early teens. The only pseudepigraphical source we have suggests that she was at least 15 at the time of her marriage, so you are inccorect, despite
a) ignoring my question to you about posting elsewhere
b) saying that 'no we don't is not being calm
and
c) you now shifting from a focus on Mary being in her early teens to Joseph being much older than her - the crux of this thread is about Aisha being very young - nine years old, to which you've entered to obviously suggest that Mary's situation was similar. It isn't because she was no where near as young. I hope this seems 'calm' enough
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« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2006, 04:19:53 PM »

Quote
I'm not ignoring the text. I stated it's pseudepigraphical. I've also asked you to show how this is comprable to Aisha's case where she wasn't even at the age of puberty. In fact others have pointed this out to, but you ignore them too.

The text I'm refering to are Liturgical texts of the church - which I have linked in this thread.  

Quote
As for Greek, ni thuigmn (I don't understand it - in Irish Smiley )

My sympathies.  That aside, how do you expect to be taken seriously in this discussion if you can't read primary texts involving church beliefs (i.e liturgical documents) in their original language?  Those are what I have refrenced as to making the point about what the church believes regarding the ages of the Theotokos and St. Joseph - so unless you can counter those you don't really have anything to sat.  

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« Reply #61 on: March 12, 2006, 07:16:01 PM »

Asteriktos,

Quote
Oh really? Is that what you are going to argue in court

Indeed; so sue me  Smiley

Quote
that forcing a 12 or 15 year old (whether by physical force, coersion, lies, or whatever else) into a sexual encounter is more defensible than forcing a 9 or 10 year old? Mary might have had a choice and she might not have; 99.9% of Jews in her position would not have had a choice.

It is implied in the apocryphal account of St Mary’s early life, that she did in fact have a choice. If you have reason to believe that “99.9% of the Jews in her position would not have had a choice” then I’d like to see some evidence for this, simply for the sake of satisfying my curiosity as to whether or not this is actually true, for it doesn't really pose any significant threat to my actual case.

I have spoken of the defensibility of a 12-15 year old being married on strictly medical grounds i.e. with respect to issues of sexual maturity. Such medical issues are discerned objectively, since the biological construct and development of a female is not contingent upon time or culture to any significant extent. With respect to the psychological or emotional attitude of a girl to forced marriage, who is to say that it would have been so negative at the time and in the circumstances where such arrangements were made; as far as I’m concerned you do not present anything but a subjectively emotional response to the issue, which you choose to retroject into the mindset of every 12-15 year old Jewish girl of that era and culture.

In any event, as I have emphasized over and over again, we are speaking about a cultural norm with respect to the Jewish practice, and not a religious guideline. Assuming therefore that the idea of forced marriage was a fatal flaw, it is nonetheless a cultural flaw. All I’ve attempted to argue is that the Jewish cultural norm at that time was far superior than the divinely inspired religious precedent set by Muhammed, the moral exemplar of the religion of Islam. I never attempted to argue that Jewish cultural standards were perfect.

Quote
Even in Orthodox countries people were often not given a choice.

Again, assuming the validity of your argument with respect to the issue of forced marriage, we are nonetheless dealing with a cultural norm and not a religious one, so I fail to see how you present any valid objection in light of my actual arguments taken in context.
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« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2006, 10:15:20 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111198#msg111198 date=1142194793]
The text I'm refering to are Liturgical texts of the church - which I have linked in this thread.  [/quote]
You need to get your story straight. First you've claimed that I've denied your book works. Then you cite a bookshop selling - whopee, as if that's a reference to the text. Next you give me a link that doesn't seem to work, and somehow this presentation of Mary in anyway shows that she was as young as Aisha?
I've already pointed out that I dealt with the presentation of the temple in Post #45
I understand that Mary was about 15 when she finally married Joseph (according to the sources discussed). Or that she was presented to the temple aged 3.
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111198#msg111198 date=1142194793]
My sympathies.  That aside, how do you expect to be taken seriously in this discussion if you can't read primary texts involving church beliefs (i.e liturgical documents) in their original language?  Those are what I have refrenced as to making the point about what the church believes regarding the ages of the Theotokos and St. Joseph - so unless you can counter those you don't really have anything to sat (sic?)

[/quote]
That's right, when they translate books from Greek to English they compeltely fail to do so. I love that argument; the same Moslems use about the Koran in Arabic. It's that kind of strange un-Orthodox attitude that would have kept the Bible in Greek, and not given to the Slavs. Well done!
“According to the tradition of the Church, the Theotokos was brought to the Temple at three years of age, where she was consecrated to God and spent her days until she was fourteen or fifteen years old; and then, as a mature maiden, by the common counsel of the priests (since her parents had reposed some three years before), she was betrothed to Joseph.”
http://www.goarch.org/en/Chapel/saints.asp?contentid=267

“She remained in the house of God for twelve years, emerging at the age of fifteen with a purity and wholesomeness found in no other creature of God.”
http://home.it.net.au/%7ejgrapsas/pages/presentn.htm

In accordance with the tradition of the times, Mary was presented to the Temple of God as soon as she reached the age of three. Joachim and Anna brought her to the priests of the Temple, where she remained for twelve years, or until the age of fifteen. Mary was presented to the Temple on November 21st
http://www.st-seraphim.com/present.htm

Obviously the Greeks can’t read Greek either, or maybe when they translated this into English they lost the meaning of the original? LOL!

Now if you can only show how this is relevant to Mohammed’s under-aged bride!

So in summary, I’ve stated that Mohammed had ‘consummated’ his marriage with a nine year old. Some apologists have leapt in to speculate that Mary was similar in age. The only written source we have says she was about fifteen, so there’s no real comparison, also others have noted that Mary had a real choice in her acceptance of Jesus into her.

You’ve added your own argument in favour of the Moslem apologists by re-stating that a Divine Liturgy relies on this apocryphal work. How does this relate to Muhammed?
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« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2006, 01:32:40 AM »

Quote
You need to get your story straight.

Ok, let's give this another shot before you get you feathers ruffled, (name calling removed, second time).

Quote
First you've claimed that I've denied your book works. Then you cite a bookshop selling - whopee, as if that's a reference to the text.

My real complaint is that maybe you have to broaden your search beyond the internet.  The book I linked to is not that uncommon in Orthodox circles - probably at least someone at your parish would have a copy they could loan to you.  In the book are plenty of patristic refrences to establish with some precision what and why the Orthodox Church believes. ÂÂ

Quote
Mary in anyway shows that she was as young as Aisha?

And pray tell where did I mention that?  My only point is that Panagia was young and St. Joseph was very old in Orthodox tradition.  I didn't give a specific age. ÂÂ

Quote
That's right, when they translate books from Greek to English they compeltely fail to do so. I love that argument; the same Moslems use about the Koran in Arabic. It's that kind of strange un-Orthodox attitude that would have kept the Bible in Greek, and not given to the Slavs.

Look, have you even been posting a week here, Daffy?  Do some searches for threads on English liturgy and you will see that I am one of the more vocal proponents of English on this forum.  And don't lecture me about Slavs - in that I am myself a Slav, I'm well aware of the work of Sts. Kyril and Methodios.  Nonetheless, that is irrelevant to the discussion - liturgical and devotional life are seperate from either the academic study of Orthodoxy or apologetics.  Of course knowledge of another language is not needed for the former, but for the later at least a reading knowledge of Greek should be a bare minimum - especially if you have to delve into more obscure Orthodox sources which are still not in English. ÂÂ

 As to the rest, I think you are missing the point that some have been making here - regardless of whether Panagia was 12 or 16 she was still younger than the modern accepted age for most Americans. ÂÂ I didn't post in one way or another regarding Mohammud, I simply replied with a refrence towards a book with an Orthodox perspective about the life of the Theotokos. ÂÂ

Quote
You’ve added your own argument in favour of the Moslem apologists by re-stating that a Divine Liturgy relies on this apocryphal work.

Please link the post where I stated the Divine liturgy relies on an apocryphal work.  Please also link the post where I have added to the arguments of Muslim apologists.  Thanks, Daffy. ÂÂ
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« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2006, 02:52:23 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111244#msg111244 date=1142227960]
My real complaint is that maybe you have to broaden your search beyond the internet.  The book I linked to is not that uncommon in Orthodox circles - probably at least someone at your parish would have a copy they could loan to you.  In the book are plenty of patristic refrences to establish with some precision what and why the Orthodox Church believes.[/quote]
And what suggests that Mary's age is less than what I've stated, using the Internet's poor resources?

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111244#msg111244 date=1142227960]
And pray tell where did I mention that?  My only point is that Panagia was young and St. Joseph was very old in Orthodox tradition.  I didn't give a specific age.  [/quote]
So what relevance does it have in a thread about Aisha. This is a thread about the very young age of Aisha. She was only nine. One person chimed in to suggest that there was a parallel between her young age, and that of Mary.

To which I've replied that even if you go by an unreliable source, she was 15. Your whole debate is pointless then if it's nothing to do with the thread.
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111244#msg111244 date=1142227960]
Look, have you even been posting a week here, Daffy?  Do some searches for threads on English liturgy and you will see that I am one of the more vocal proponents of English on this forum.  And don't lecture me about Slavs - in that I am myself a Slav, I'm well aware of the work of Sts. Kyril and Methodios.  Nonetheless, that is irrelevant to the discussion - liturgical and devotional life are seperate from either the academic study of Orthodoxy or apologetics.  Of course knowledge of another language is not needed for the former, but for the later at least a reading knowledge of Greek should be a bare minimum - especially if you have to delve into more obscure Orthodox sources which are still not in English.  [/quote]
Despite you being rude here in calling me names, you're convinced that Orthodoxy can only be understood in Greek (as a Slav, you must know that the Russian church has a wealth of learning not available outside Russian), but it still begs the point of what your rant here is about anyway, as you've yet to show that Aisha's age was comparable to Mary's. It isn't. As noted one unreliable source says she was much older. My web-sites show me this, you've not disputed that, but gone off on tangents about how the web is limited (tell me if you dispute Mary's age) and that I must know Greek.
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111244#msg111244 date=1142227960]
 As to the rest, I think you are missing the point that some have been making here - regardless of whether Panagia was 12 or 16 she was still younger than the modern accepted age for most Americans. ÂÂ I didn't post in one way or another regarding Mohammud, I simply replied with a refrence towards a book with an Orthodox perspective about the life of the Theotokos. ÂÂ [/quote]
Then you are entering this 'fact' in a thread about Aisha as a relativst statement. You need to make up your mind. Yet others have pointed out that Mary's relationship to Jospeh was vastly different from that of Aisha's to Muhammed - or do you want to argue against that. Please make up your mind.
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111244#msg111244 date=1142227960]
Please link the post where I stated the Divine liturgy relies on an apocryphal work.  Please also link the post where I have added to the arguments of Muslim apologists.  Thanks, Daffy. ÂÂ
[/quote]
Again ignoring your rudeness, the very fact you've cited Mary's young age in relationship to Joseph's on a thread about Aisha's young age to Muhammed is plain to see, even if you're trying to be cute and beat around the bush.

Or did you learn that in Greek too? Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2006, 02:58:33 AM »

Despite some entertaining attempts to relativse the immoral attitude Muhammed had towards Aisha (by bringing up the relationship of Mary to Joseph), I'd like to continue with the OP - despite my lack of Greek Smiley

I'd like to remind people of the issue...
"Question: Is it possible to have intercourse with girls before puberty, would not this physically and mentally harmful to the girl. Is such a thing permissible in Islam, and if it is permissible then what is the minimum age for marriage execution in Islam, since puberty is not a requirement.
Answer: In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Jurists discussed the issue of marrying a girl before puberty, i.e. a girl who might not be able to have sexual intercourse due to her young age.
They agreed that the Wali can marry a girl before puberty. But when she reaches puberty, she has the right to choose either to nullify the marriage contract or to continue her marital life.
Also, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, married `Aishah, may Allah be pleased with her, before she reached the age of puberty.
Hence, we conclude that puberty is not a condition for executing marriage. The only condition is the wife’s ability to bear responsibilities of marital life. However, we do not recommend marriage before puberty because at that early age the girl can’t fulfil her obligations towards her husband properly, nor can she know her rights towards him.
Thus, to avoid any negligence or liability on her part we do not recommend marriage at such an early age.
Allah Almighty knows best.
Dr. Su`aad Ibrahim Salih"
http://www.islam-online.net/livefatwa/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=YFCeOS
see also:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR
and
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=22442&dgn=4
and from the same site...
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1493&dgn=4
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« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2006, 03:30:17 AM »

Quote
Despite you being rude here in calling me names

He has a screen name, and you should use it.

Quote
you're convinced that Orthodoxy can only be understood in Greek (as a Slav, you must know that the Russian church has a wealth of learning not available outside Russian)

Deleted - your profile says that you have been registered for seven days here.  I've been posting on this board since 2002.  You are making a fool of yourself with those accusations considering the bulk of what I've posted, especially if you search out some of the threads on English liturgy.  Although some posters here will find it amusing that you are accusing me of being convinced that Orthodoxy can only be understood in Greek. ÂÂ

Quote
but it still begs the point of what your rant here is about anyway

It is more a question of you methodology than anything else.  Your tactics and style is little different than the myriads of wannabe Roman Catholic online apologists.  I simply found it interesting when I recomended two two sources for the Orthodox traditional on the Theotokos that you simply couldn't copy and paste and otherwise prooftext into a past it was met with so much hostility. ÂÂ

Quote
To which I've replied that even if you go by an unreliable source, she was 15. Your whole debate is pointless then if it's nothing to do with the thread.

But, according to the Orthodox tradition Panagia was 12 as testified by Saint Nikolaj of Ohrid in his Prologue http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html?month=November&day=21&Go.x=10&Go.y=13


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« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2006, 05:16:28 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111267#msg111267 date=1142235017]
No one is forcing you to have Daffy Duck as your avatar.  [/quote]
No one's forcing you to avoid respecting me by referring to me by my UserName.

Get back to me when you want to show how your posts are relevant to this thread and when you want to show some respect. I guess it stems from the fact you think anyone who can't speak Greek can never be as Orthodox as you.

Balls in your court.
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« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2006, 05:25:43 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8377.msg111267#msg111267 date=1142235017]
But, according to the Orthodox tradition Panagia was 12 as testified by Saint Nikolaj of Ohrid in his Prologue http://www.westsrbdio.org/prolog/my.html?month=November&day=21&Go.x=10&Go.y=13
[/quote]
Your own source says she was 'betrothed' at 12

Betrothed:
To promise to give in marriage: was betrothed to a member of the royal family.
Archaic. To promise to marry.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=betrothed

Given that my own sources (which you still refuse to question; except over that they're not in Greek (LOL!) have already agreed with this.

So my sources say she wasn't married till she was 15. Your source doesn't say that she wasn't married then. She never consummated the marriage with Joseph, anyway, so what's this got to do with Muhammed and Aisha you've yet to demonstrate.
 Huh
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« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2006, 05:27:20 AM »

So, trying to get back onto the topic of the OP I would like to mention that some Moslem apologists say that a woman can't marry without giving her consent. However, in Islam you're deemed (for the purposes of marriage) a woman at puberty. And, your silence can be deemed to be 'consent'.
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« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2006, 10:21:02 AM »

Nektarios,

 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  Any name calling or personal stuff will not be tolerated.  Also, being "cute" about someone's avatar has no effect on the obvious.  Please keep the debate substantive.
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« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2006, 12:12:21 AM »

What I found to be a double standard with regards to Moslems and this issue is that they deem a girl to be an adult when she reaches puberty - so they can 'marry' her. BUT at the same time many Moslem nations deny this 'adult woman' the right to drive or vote, or do other 'adult' things; so it seems that this 'rule' is in place simply so she can be wedded.
Is this harmful?
Yes...
"Fact Sheet No.23, Harmful Traditional Practices Affecting the Health of Women and Children
Traditional cultural practices reflect values and beliefs held by members of a community for periods often spanning generations. Every social grouping in the world has specific traditional cultural practices and beliefs, some of which are beneficial to all members, while others are harmful to a specific group, such as women. These harmful traditional practices include female genital mutilation (FGM); forced feeding of women; early marriage; the various taboos or practices which prevent women from controlling their own fertility; nutritional taboos and traditional birth practices; son preference and its implications for the status of the girl child; female infanticide; early pregnancy; and dowry price. Despite their harmful nature and their violation of international human rights laws, such practices persist because they are not questioned and take on an aura of morality in the eyes of those practising them."
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs23.htm
Fact Sheet No.23, Harmful Traditional Practices Affecting the Health of Women and Children
"Child marriage robs a girl of her childhood-time necessary to develop physically, emotionally and psychologically. In fact, early marriage inflicts great emotional stress as the young woman is removed from her parents' home to that of her husband and in-laws. Her husband, who will invariably be many years her senior, will have little in common with a young teenager. It is with this strange man that she has to develop an intimate emotional and physical relationship. She is obliged to have intercourse, although physically she might not be fully developed."
(Ibid)
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« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2006, 06:12:01 AM »

I've yet to see any Moslem (on any forum) condemn Muhammed's actions.
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« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2006, 05:24:08 AM »

I'd like to see if someone would respond to this thread. I recall in debate with some Moslems that they cited the OT saying that the Jews allowed marriage to a three year old.

I'm not aware of this verse, so it might simply be regarding a promise in marriage, as opposed to the 'consummation' of a marriage as carried out by Muhammed.
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« Reply #74 on: January 30, 2011, 02:05:48 PM »

"There are really only three reasons to insist -- as so many do -- that Aisha was only 9 years old when Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) married her: Either you are such a crazy Islamophile that you are willing to go to your grave insisting Muhammad could do whatever he wanted, or you are such a crazy Islamophobe that you want to insist he did, or you are such a weirdly religious sex-crazed pervert that you hope accusing him makes it OK for you to do it too.

There is absolutely no other reason to either make or repeat that disgusting claim. Aisha was married in 622 C.E., and although her exact birthday is unknown, Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari recorded that it happened before Islam was revealed in 610. The earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Abu Muhammad 'Abd al-Malik bin Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah -- The Life of the Messenger of God records that Aisha accepted Islam shortly after it was revealed -- 12 years before her marriage -- and there is no way she could have done so as an infant or toddler.

Furthermore, it is a matter of incontrovertible historical record that Aisha was involved in the Battles of Badr in 624 and Uhud in 625, in neither of which was anyone under the age of 15 allowed."
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« Reply #75 on: January 30, 2011, 02:33:49 PM »

"There are really only three reasons to insist -- as so many do -- that Aisha was only 9 years old when Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) married her: Either you are such a crazy Islamophile that you are willing to go to your grave insisting Muhammad could do whatever he wanted, or you are such a crazy Islamophobe that you want to insist he did, or you are such a weirdly religious sex-crazed pervert that you hope accusing him makes it OK for you to do it too.

Argumentum Ad Hominem.

There is absolutely no other reason to either make or repeat that disgusting claim.

Logical Fallacy of False Dilemma.

Aisha was married in 622 C.E., and although her exact birthday is unknown, Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari recorded that it happened before Islam was revealed in 610. The earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Abu Muhammad 'Abd al-Malik bin Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah -- The Life of the Messenger of God records that Aisha accepted Islam shortly after it was revealed -- 12 years before her marriage -- and there is no way she could have done so as an infant or toddler.

Why not? Where is evidence for that?

Furthermore, it is a matter of incontrovertible historical record that Aisha was involved in the Battles of Badr in 624 and Uhud in 625, in neither of which was anyone under the age of 15 allowed."[/font]

Where is evidence for these two claims?

Let the TRUTH cry out:

EVIDENCE THAT AISHA WAS 9 WHEN SHE CONSUMMATED HER MARRIAGE

The Islamic source materials state that Aisha was 9 when they consummated their marriage.

From the hadith of Bukhari, volume 5, #234

    "Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Bukhari vol. 7, #65:

    "Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""

From the hadith of Muslim, volume 2, #3309

    Aisha reported: Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine….

From the hadith of the Sunan of Abu Dawud, volume 2, #2116

    "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

From "The History of Tabari", volume 9, page 131

    "Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me"...(The Prophet) married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died.

From the Encyclopedia of Islam, under "Aisha":

    "Some time after the death of Khadija, Khawla suggested to Muhammad that he should marry either Aisha, the 6 year old daughter of his chief follower, or Sawda Zama, a widow of about 30, who had gone as a Muslim to Abyssinia and whose husband had died there. Muhammad is said to have asked her to arrange for him to marry both. It had already been agreed that Aisha should marry Djubayr Mutim, whose father, though still pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. By common consent, however, this agreement was set aside, and Muhammad was betrothed to Aisha... The marriage was not consummated until some months after the Hidjra, (in April 623, 624). Aisha went to live in an apartment in Muhammad's house, later the mosque of Median. She cannot have been more than ten years old at the time and took her toys to her new home."

More evidence: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm
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« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2011, 05:19:29 PM »

Theophilos, just a few questions,

A.) Do you believe all the hadiths (such as you are quoting) to be historically accurate then?

B.) if this is even true (for arguments sake let us say she was 9 yrs old) how does that make Muhammad any different from any other man with his authority in medieval Arabian/Bedouin society? Wasn't this fairly common then?

C.) If this is true, so what? What does it prove? Do you think this will convince a Muslim to convert away from Islam? Would you convert away from Christ based on some strange story in our Tradition, (not even in our Scriptures)?

My two cents is that I don't think we can know anything about this there seems to be so many conflicting traditions that it's all pointless to try and figure it out. Even if we did, I doubt it's going to convince a Fundamentalist anymore than mountains of evidence convinces Christian Fundamentalist Protestants that Constantine was not an evil proto-Stalinist, possessed by Satan jerk out to destroy Christianity. Cheesy See my point? People will believe what they want to believe. If this is a scholarly discussion then continue to pursue that, however if it's an attempt to show how "evil" Islam is, well, I can fig up some nice juicy Bible verses that can "prove" the same thing about Christianity. I guess what I'm saying is I question using the same arguments the New Atheists use, not because the arguments are automatically bad, some of them are good, but only because arguing and disrespecting Islam's prophet probably only makes us feel good and doesn't do anything for the Gospel of Christ.

I'm not saying we should just let Islam have a pass, not at all, then again I don't think Christianity should get a pass either.

Anyways I'm not sure what it is I'm saying, more like just some thoughts out of the blue. No offense intended.

NP


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« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2011, 06:18:56 PM »

If this is true, so what? What does it prove? Do you think this will convince a Muslim to convert away from Islam?

It may. When they write testimonials, Muslims who have converted to Christianity (alas, often of the Evangelical Protestant kind) often say that their first suspicions of Islam came when they examined the life of Muhammed, as he didn't seem to live the sort of life that their intuitions say is holy.
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« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2011, 07:12:32 PM »

Theophilos, just a few questions,

A.) Do you believe all the hadiths (such as you are quoting) to be historically accurate then?

What matters is not what I say on this issue, but what the majority of Muslims believe and teach about the historical accuracy of those Hadiths.

B.) if this is even true (for arguments sake let us say she was 9 yrs old) how does that make Muhammad any different from any other man with his authority in medieval Arabian/Bedouin society? Wasn't this fairly common then?

It could have been common or totally unusual, but we should not forget that Muhammad claimed to be different than any other man of his time and of all times and places. He said he was the ONLY person to receive God's final and perfect revelation. Islamic tradition also considers Muhammad sinless and infallible like the rest of the former prophets.

Muhammad said that his deity told him to leave idolatry and be a strict follower of monotheism although most people of his time (even the tribe he descended from) practiced polytheism. This proves that Muhammad could go against what was considered common and natural in his time.

C.) If this is true, so what? What does it prove?

It proves that Muhammad was away from perfection despite his claims concerning the final revelation. He should not be regarded as a model of piety or moral perfection.

Do you think this will convince a Muslim to convert away from Islam?

Some of the people who leave Islam present Muhammad's child bride as one of the major reasons underlying their conversion.

Would you convert away from Christ based on some strange story in our Tradition, (not even in our Scriptures)?

What kind of a tradition? Give me an example please.

My two cents is that I don't think we can know anything about this there seems to be so many conflicting traditions that it's all pointless to try and figure it out.

Conflicting traditions in Islam is a result of some modern Muslim scholars' wish to deny and replace "traditional" traditions.

Even if we did, I doubt it's going to convince a Fundamentalist anymore than mountains of evidence convinces Christian Fundamentalist Protestants that Constantine was not an evil proto-Stalinist, possessed by Satan jerk out to destroy Christianity. Cheesy See my point? People will believe what they want to believe.

Yet this should not prevent us from teaching the things stated in the Islamic tradition about Muhammad and his child bride.

If this is a scholarly discussion then continue to pursue that, however if it's an attempt to show how "evil" Islam is, well, I can fig up some nice juicy Bible verses that can "prove" the same thing about Christianity.

For instance?

I guess what I'm saying is I question using the same arguments the New Atheists use, not because the arguments are automatically bad, some of them are good, but only because arguing and disrespecting Islam's prophet probably only makes us feel good and doesn't do anything for the Gospel of Christ.

In what way do you expect the critique of Islam to be directly affiliated with the Gospel of Christ? 

I'm not saying we should just let Islam have a pass, not at all, then again I don't think Christianity should get a pass either.

Defense and attack should go hand in hand. Even if Christianity failed to pass the test, this would not save Islam from error or make Muhammad a true prophet.

Anyways I'm not sure what it is I'm saying, more like just some thoughts out of the blue. No offense intended.

NP


No offense taken. Thanks for your comments and questions.
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« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2011, 08:30:56 PM »

Theophilos, just a few questions,

A.) Do you believe all the hadiths (such as you are quoting) to be historically accurate then?

What matters is not what I say on this issue, but what the majority of Muslims believe and teach about the historical accuracy of those Hadiths.

B.) if this is even true (for arguments sake let us say she was 9 yrs old) how does that make Muhammad any different from any other man with his authority in medieval Arabian/Bedouin society? Wasn't this fairly common then?

It could have been common or totally unusual, but we should not forget that Muhammad claimed to be different than any other man of his time and of all times and places. He said he was the ONLY person to receive God's final and perfect revelation. Islamic tradition also considers Muhammad sinless and infallible like the rest of the former prophets.

Muhammad said that his deity told him to leave idolatry and be a strict follower of monotheism although most people of his time (even the tribe he descended from) practiced polytheism. This proves that Muhammad could go against what was considered common and natural in his time.

C.) If this is true, so what? What does it prove?

It proves that Muhammad was away from perfection despite his claims concerning the final revelation. He should not be regarded as a model of piety or moral perfection.

Do you think this will convince a Muslim to convert away from Islam?

Some of the people who leave Islam present Muhammad's child bride as one of the major reasons underlying their conversion.

Would you convert away from Christ based on some strange story in our Tradition, (not even in our Scriptures)?

What kind of a tradition? Give me an example please.

My two cents is that I don't think we can know anything about this there seems to be so many conflicting traditions that it's all pointless to try and figure it out.

Conflicting traditions in Islam is a result of some modern Muslim scholars' wish to deny and replace "traditional" traditions.

Even if we did, I doubt it's going to convince a Fundamentalist anymore than mountains of evidence convinces Christian Fundamentalist Protestants that Constantine was not an evil proto-Stalinist, possessed by Satan jerk out to destroy Christianity. Cheesy See my point? People will believe what they want to believe.

Yet this should not prevent us from teaching the things stated in the Islamic tradition about Muhammad and his child bride.

If this is a scholarly discussion then continue to pursue that, however if it's an attempt to show how "evil" Islam is, well, I can fig up some nice juicy Bible verses that can "prove" the same thing about Christianity.

For instance?

I guess what I'm saying is I question using the same arguments the New Atheists use, not because the arguments are automatically bad, some of them are good, but only because arguing and disrespecting Islam's prophet probably only makes us feel good and doesn't do anything for the Gospel of Christ.

In what way do you expect the critique of Islam to be directly affiliated with the Gospel of Christ? 

I'm not saying we should just let Islam have a pass, not at all, then again I don't think Christianity should get a pass either.

Defense and attack should go hand in hand. Even if Christianity failed to pass the test, this would not save Islam from error or make Muhammad a true prophet.

Anyways I'm not sure what it is I'm saying, more like just some thoughts out of the blue. No offense intended.

NP


No offense taken. Thanks for your comments and questions.
I'll just add to Theophilos' excellent analysis, that in the Islamic world, when one legislates on the age of consent, one doesn't consider at what age a girl can make such decisions for herself and give her consent to engage in such activities and responsibilities.  They try to determine instead at what age Muhammad consumated his marriage with Aisha, or whether that was her first period and thus that setting the age of consent.
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« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2011, 08:50:41 AM »

The more I learn about Mohammed the more I become sure that he was in fact possessed with a demon and that Koran was dictated to him not by God, but by this demon. Islam is really a diabolical caricature of Christianity.
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« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2011, 09:24:00 AM »

The more I learn about Mohammed the more I become sure that he was in fact possessed with a demon and that Koran was dictated to him not by God, but by this demon.

Even the Sirat literature (Muhammad's life story) supports this theory.

So I [Muhammad] read it, and he [Gabriel] departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man POSSESSED: I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or POSSESSED - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then) when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying ‘O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel.’ (The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth impression 1995], p. 106)

Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/mo_borrower1.html
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