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Author Topic: Islam and the 21st century: A must see video!  (Read 6419 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 07, 2006, 04:21:19 AM »

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

Very brave lady taking on the islamo-fascist.....

Anyone think she'll still be alive this time next year? Or next month?
She did a great job pointing out the foibles of Islam. There's probably already been a Fatah or Fatwah, whatever it's called issued on her, hopefully, like Rushdie, she'll find a way to survive it......Would be great if she could be given a daily show that was broadcasted across the middle east.... Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 04:33:30 AM by Nacho » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2006, 04:34:42 AM »

Two things:

- The link isn't working. It's been "squished" by the forum.

- It sounds, from what I hear already, that this may belong in the Politics section!

EDIT: Thanks for fixing the link!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 04:35:08 AM by Bizzlebin » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2006, 05:37:32 AM »

It's not letting me see the movie on my sub-dial-up connection. Keeps trying to re-buffer and re-download every time I download it. From what it's letting me see, I am getting no video, and only an audio speech in a Middle-Eastern language. Any ideas?
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 09:07:23 AM »

It's not letting me see the movie on my sub-dial-up connection. Keeps trying to re-buffer and re-download every time I download it. From what it's letting me see, I am getting no video, and only an audio speech in a Middle-Eastern language. Any ideas?

All I can say is "WOW" what a powerful indictment of the radical Islamists, and on a Arab network TV program.  I do fear for her life for coming out like this but it has to be done and I have not seen any men coming out with this much force and she even stiffled a Mullah who was taking the opposite point.  She is very brave and I pray that nothing happens to her.  IM SURE THAT THIS INTERVIEW WILL NOT BE SEEN ON THE PATHETIC MAJOR NETWORKS IN AMERICA AND THIS IS A SHAME.  A great video and a keeper.

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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2006, 01:01:23 PM »

Is there any way this will play on a MAC??  i'm still trying to figure out options...any ideas?
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2006, 04:08:29 PM »

Try this...S1389

If you live on the second floor or higher, open your window, take Mac, hold out open window, let go.  Once you hear a crash, go to Best Buy, Circuit City or any other electronics store.

Purchase a PC.

Click on link.

Should work fine.  Tongue Grin Grin
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2006, 05:25:25 PM »

SS99,

Try this....stare at your blue screen of death for hours on end...until it truly becomes the blue screen of DEATH  Shocked Grin Tongue Wink

Or even better, try to SWIM through the viruses, spyware and other junk on your PC.  There should be MORE than enough balast  Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2006, 05:32:12 PM »

Great video!
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« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2006, 05:33:30 PM »

Although a bit sad that her exposure to Islam has shattered her sense of the supernatural...
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« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2006, 06:04:13 PM »

Although a bit sad that her exposure to Islam has shattered her sense of the supernatural...

Better an atheist than a moslem.
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2006, 02:50:46 AM »

Very good video.  Get her on Oprah!
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2006, 04:42:16 AM »

Here's a snippet from part of a transcript I found for those that couldn't see the video:

-    Host: I understand from your words that what is happening today is a clash between the culture of the West, and the backwardness and ignorance of the Muslims?

    Wafa Sultan: Yes, that is what I mean.

    [...]

    Wafa Sultan: My colleague has said that he never offends other people’s beliefs. What civilization on the face of this earth allows him to call other people by names that they did not choose for themselves? Once, he calls them Ahl Al-Dhimma, another time he calls them the “People of the Book,” and yet another time he compares them to apes and pigs, or he calls the Christians “those who incur Allah’s wrath.” Who told you that they are “People of the Book”? They are not the People of the Book, they are people of many books. All the useful scientific books that you have today are theirs, the fruit of their free and creative thinking. What gives you the right to call them “those who incur Allah’s wrath,” or “those who have gone astray,” and then come here and say that your religion commands you to refrain from offending the beliefs of others?

    I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others’ right to believe in it.

    Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: Are you a heretic?

    Wafa Sultan: You can say whatever you like. I am a secular human being who does not believe in the supernatural...

    Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran...

    Wafa Sultan: These are personal matters that do not concern you.

    [...]

    Wafa Sultan: Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don’t throw them at me. You are free to worship whoever you want, but other people’s beliefs are not your concern, whether they believe that the Messiah is God, son of Mary, or that Satan is God, son of Mary. Let people have their beliefs.

------------------------------


Hmmm......Fatwah's issued by crazy mullahs accross the middle east with I's dotted & T's crossed in.....
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Yea, this women is all but dead. I hope she has 24 hour surveillence and a few guns laying around the house because I'm sure that after the practitioners of the religion of peace see this they will be gunning for her. This was freakin' sheer brilliance and gutsy on her part to go on Al Jazeera of all places and silence that clown of a mullah she was debating. All he was reduced to was calling her a 'heretic' and that she would incur the wrath of Allah, what an a$$hat! I'm sure millions of women across the middle east were silently cheering for her! I guess if it takes an ex-muslim turned securlarist to speak reason & logic to these people, then so be it. We have already learned that the so called moderate muslims (the silence of moderate muslims...is...deadening!)don't have the time to do this, and if they do it's all platitudes filled with BS and shallow half apologies, so bravo to this brave soul! I kept expecting her to kowtow to Islam on some points, but not only does she not show the least bit of reverence, she praises the jews and western culture! Bravo! I loved her examples of not one jew blew themselves up in hitlers germany to take revenge, not one budhist blew himself up to take revenge for the budhist shrines that have been blown to pieces by the islamist, not one christian has blown themsleves up to take revenge for all the destroyed churches accross the middle east...Keep an eye out for this lady, Wafa Sultan! She's an up & comer and I'm sure we will be hearing more from her as long as she is alive. I think i'll add her to my short list of heroes lol... Grin


--------------

This also isn't the first time she has spoken out against the medieval warriors we are now dealing with. Take a look at this:
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=783
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/2005/07/007434print.html


July 30, 2005
LA psychologist clashes with Algerian jihadist over Islamic teachings and terrorism

We need more interviewers like Wafa Sultan who aren't afraid to challenge jihadist distortions, obfuscations, and sleights of hand. Instead, the mainstream media is awash with dhimmis on both the left and the right. "LA Psycohologyst [sic] Wafa Sultan Clashes with Algerian Islamist Ahmad bin Muhammad over Islamic Teachings and Terrorism," from MEMRITV, with thanks to Alain:

Wafa Sultan, a psychologist from LA, here speaks with Dr. Ahmad Bin Muhammad, an Algerian professor -- this was aired on Al-Jazeera on July 26, 2005. Sultan starts out by asking him why Muslim men become suicide bombers. She speaks plainly about the role of Islam:

    Wafa Sultan: [...]In our countries, religion is the sole source of education, and is the only spring from which that terrorist drank until his thirst was quenched. He was not born a terrorist, and did not become a terrorist overnight. Islamic teachings played a role in weaving his ideological fabric, thread by thread, and did not allow other sources — I am referring to scientific sources — to play a role. It was these teachings that distorted this terrorist and killed his humanity. It was not (the terrorist) who distorted the religious teachings and misunderstood them, as some ignorant people claim.

    When you recite to a child still in his early years the verse: "They will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off," regardless of this verse's interpretation, and regardless of the reasons it was conveyed or its time — you have made the first step towards creating a great terrorist...

In response, Dr. bin Muhammad plays the deflection game, or tu quoque, as Hugh Fitzgerald has labeled it:

    Bin Muhammad: The guest from America asked how a young man could blow up a bus. If only she had asked how a president could blow up a peaceful nation in Iraq. How does a president help the arch-killer of occupied Palestine? Why doesn't she ask from where Hitler was brought up — Hitler, who murdered 50 million innocent people. Why doesn't she ask where the people who dropped two atom bombs on Japan were educated? Who killed three million innocent Vietnamese? Who annihilated the Indians? Who maintained imperialism to this day? Who waged the Spanish civil war, which exacted a toll of 600,000 in 36 months? Why don't we ask these questions? Who has over 15,000 nuclear warheads — Muslims or the non-Muslims? The Muslims or the Americans? The Muslims or the Europeans? We want an answer. Where was Bush educated — if education is really what makes a person a criminal?...

But Wafa Sultan, unlike so many others, is not about to let him get away with it:

    Wafa Sultan: Murder is terrorism regardless of time or place, but when it is committed as a decree from Allah, this is another matter...

    The Crusader wars about which the professor is talking — these wars came after the Islamic religious teachings, and as a response to these teachings. This is the law of action and reaction. The Islamic religious teachings have incited to the rejection of the other, to the denial of the other, and to the killing of the other. Have they not incited to the killing of Jews and Christians? If we had heard that a tribe in a distant corner of China has a holy book and religious teachings calling to kill Muslims — would the Muslims stand idly by in the face of such teachings?

    The Crusader wars came after these Islamic religious teachings. When these Islamic teachings were delivered, America did not exist on the face of the earth, nor was Israel in Palestine...

    Why doesn't he talk about the Muslim conquests that preceded all the wars he is talking about? Why doesn't he mention that when Tariq bin Ziyyad entered Andalusia with his armies, he said to his people: "The sea is behind you, and the enemy is in front"? How can you storm a peaceful country, and consider all its peaceful inhabitants to be your enemies, merely because you have the right to spread your religion? Should the religion be spread by the sword and through fighting?...

Stunned, the good doctor flails about:

    Bin Muhammad: Who invented slavery in recent centuries? Who colonized the other — us or them? Did Algeria colonize France, or vice versa? Did Egypt colonize England, or vice versa? We are the victims...

    I am not saying that killing innocent people is nice. I say that all innocent people should be protected. But at the same time, we must start with the innocent among the Muslims. There are millions of innocent people among us, while the innocent among you — and innocent they are — number only dozens, hundreds, or thousands, at the most...

    Wafa Sultan: Can you explain to me the killing of a hundred thousand children, women and men in Algeria, using the most abominable killing methods? Can you explain to me the killing of 15,000 Syrian civilians? Can you explain to me the abominable crime in the military artillery school in Aleppo? Can you explain the crime in Al-Asbaqiya neighborhood of Damascus, Syria? Can you explain the attack of the terrorists on the peaceful village of Al-Kisheh in Upper Egypt, and the massacre of 21 Coptic peasants? Can you explain to me what is going on in Indonesia, Turkey, and Egypt, even though these are Islamic countries which opposed the American intervention in Iraq, and which don't have armies in Iraq, yet were not spared by the terrorists? Can you explain these phenomena, which took place in Arab countries? Was all this revenge on America or Israel? Or were they merely to satisfy bestial wild instincts aroused in them by religious teachings, which incite to rejection of the other, to the killing of the other, and to the denial of the other. When Saddam Hussein buried 300,000 Shiites and Kurds alive, we did not hear a single Muslim protesting. Your silence served to acknowledge the legitimacy of these killings, didn't it?...


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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2006, 07:34:58 AM »

She's either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid for doing this; but hey, the message of truth is getting out there about Islam.  Let's hope she survives a few more years to put these idiots in their place.
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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2006, 12:01:19 PM »

Quote
She's either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid for doing this; but hey, the message of truth is getting out there about Islam.  Let's hope she survives a few more years to put these idiots in their place.

Yea, this women is exactly what we need to combat islam & more like her please! ....a sane voice that drowns out the constant drumbeat of insanest from the insane mullahs. I guess she can take the place of the moderate muslims that mysteriously seem to be absent...
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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2006, 03:57:32 PM »

I agree somewhat with this woman, at least in terms of her direct observations of Islam itself, though in practically everything else she was deluded (either by her education or her bittnerness.)

At the same time, I can't get into the "rah-rah" corner for the bushies or the other neo-con swine, who have entirely different motives than the Protestant "millenialists" (or those with delusions of renewing the Crusades)...at best, these hegellian hucksters only throw the occassional scrap to such peoplle, in order to keep their support.  Nor can I get "hot" over the prospect of bloodshed, as it's quite obvious many "Christians" do.

It is true, Islam = objective blasphemy.  Besides the obvious problems in it's creed and common implimentation throughout history, though, we've done a pretty good job (the west in general) of screwing up this region in our interventions thus far (whether we speak about the often arbitrary borders the British gave them, or this latest adventure in Iraq which I think in the end is either going to necessitate further conflicts, or degenerate into a civil war once the Americans leave....basically, a few thousand young Americans dead, to establish yet another "Islamic Republic".)

What is really needful, as always, is in the spiritual and moral realm - and it begins at home.  While the faith of the Mohammedans is largely in lies, it is superior to the de facto atheism of the west, if only because it is stronger and creates harder, more principled men.  We are not even quite sure what we are, yet we expect victory over our "Assyrians", as it were?  We (speaking broadly of westerners in general, not simply America) kill babies like we take out the trash, yet we call the Muslims bloodthirsty?  We have sodomites prancing in parades and basically "recruiting" amongst an increasingly bewildered youth...and we're going to poo-poo the Muslims for being too restrictive in their "excessive" modesty?  We idolize whoredom, but give sermons to Muslims on "women's rights"?

There are big problems here, problems which do cry up to Heaven at least as much as anything the Muslims are guilty of.  So while this lady's anti-Muslim argument is fundamentally correct, the idea that we are on stable ground ourselves as a civilization is delusional.  We of course pray for our own, because they are family (just as we pray for our family) - but let us not be so deluded as to not perceive our own filthiness, and thus be emboldenedd with a confidence in God's blessing of our every endevour despite the fact that "we" (if we can speak of a corporate individual here) do not honour Him (let alone particularly love Him).

Upon reflection, I often feel our own position to be akin to that of the earliest Christians living in Rome.  I "pray for the Emperor" and the institutions of the state; but I fully recognize there is much that is rotten about both Caesar and his Empire, and would not be at all surprised if God favoured the barbarians over us.

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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2006, 04:54:14 PM »

Augustine, I think you miss the whole point. She wasn't there to discuss the value of who's customs are better. Her mission was solely to point out the hypocrisy of Islam which seems to have a history of not being able to live in peace with it's neighbors. Some of the SIDE issues you bring up I can agree with, but it's not really relevant to the video. Also,you think that there is not just as much 'sin' in these Arab countries that portray themselves as being so Godly & clean? Not to sound like John Stossel, but give me a break! I can guarantee you that there is just as much filth & perversion that can be found there like anywhere else, some of them of course hide it much better considering their lives may be threatened if they do it out in the open. To tell you the truth, I'll take the gay's parading in the streets anyday over living in a society filled with fear and threats of violence; and having to worry about muslims flying planes into buildings, car & restaurant bombings or blowing up a bus full of children. What's the point in living in a place like that which may have the external virtues which you talk about but they don't have the decency to treat their neighbors kindly? I'll take the free and open society anyday, plus if you really believe in free will people should have the right to do what they short of physical violence.
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2006, 11:08:47 PM »

I agree somewhat with this woman, at least in terms of her direct observations of Islam itself, though in practically everything else she was deluded (either by her education or her bittnerness.)

Deluded by her education? It's comments like that which make me have to step back and ask, is Christianity really any better than Islam. Fortunately I can read Origen, St. Clement of Alexandria, or St. Gregory of Nyssa and see what real Christianity is and dismiss such nonsense.

Quote
At the same time, I can't get into the "rah-rah" corner for the bushies or the other neo-con swine, who have entirely different motives than the Protestant "millenialists" (or those with delusions of renewing the Crusades)...at best, these hegellian hucksters only throw the occassional scrap to such peoplle, in order to keep their support.  Nor can I get "hot" over the prospect of bloodshed, as it's quite obvious many "Christians" do.

Nothing wrong with conquering moslem nations...the problems come when we give them back, we should learn from history and keep these countries, make them part of our Empire and use an iron fist to eliminate opposition (including the Moslem religion)...in a hundred years everyone would be much better off

Quote
It is true, Islam = objective blasphemy.  Besides the obvious problems in it's creed and common implimentation throughout history

But that's not the real problem here, is it? The Buddhists are technically blasphemers as well and likewise the Hindus, but I have nothing against having a Buddhist or Hindu neighbour...infact I would get on my knees right now and give thanks to God with tears of joy if all the middle east converted to Buddhism. The problem is islam and islamic culture, that is what makes them impossible to live with, that is why they must be destroyed. It's either us or them.

Quote
we've done a pretty good job (the west in general) of screwing up this region in our interventions thus far (whether we speak about the often arbitrary borders the British gave them, or this latest adventure in Iraq which I think in the end is either going to necessitate further conflicts, or degenerate into a civil war once the Americans leave....basically, a few thousand young Americans dead, to establish yet another "Islamic Republic".)

The problem with what the British did was not conquering the middle east and making it part of their empire, the problem was giving the land back...in a sense these problems today are the fault of the British, who should have stayed in the reigon and fulfilled their responsiblity as an enlightened culture overseeing a primitive one and guiding it into the modern age.

Quote
What is really needful, as always, is in the spiritual and moral realm - and it begins at home.  While the faith of the Mohammedans is largely in lies, it is superior to the de facto atheism of the west, if only because it is stronger and creates harder, more principled men.

I wonder if the 'atheism of the west' isn't superior not only to Islam but also Christianity; to be honest, with my experience with atheists I have found them to be far more loving and caring than many Christians I have known...I have no doubt that many atheists follow the spirit of the gospels better than many Christians. Plus, when was the last time that an atheist suicide bomber blew up a bus full of children?

Quote
We are not even quite sure what we are, yet we expect victory over our "Assyrians", as it were?  We (speaking broadly of westerners in general, not simply America) kill babies like we take out the trash, yet we call the Muslims bloodthirsty?

What good does it do to allow a baby to be born only to grow up in the oppression of islamic culture and society? If the moslems allowed abortion it would be an act of mercy.

Quote
We have sodomites prancing in parades and basically "recruiting" amongst an increasingly bewildered youth...and we're going to poo-poo the Muslims for being too restrictive in their "excessive" modesty?

It's not the modesty of the moslems that we condemn, but the fact that they force it on others. They fact that they attempt to destroy the divine image in man by removing from him his freedoms. They apply 7th century cultural ideals to the modern world, and thus have become an enemy of civilization. Their modesty has been condemned because it is nothing more than a white-washed sepulchre which contains all kinds of uncleanness...a condemnation of islamic 'modesty' is a condemnation of hypocrisy.

Quote
We idolize whoredom, but give sermons to Muslims on "women's rights"?

A few western european countries may have legalized prostitution, but we hardly 'idolize' it. But in any case, I really dont see how it is worse to have such institutions in open view than to do what islam does and simply hide them under the surface because of fear and oppression. Again, this is nothing more than another example of the hypocracy of Islam. As far as women's rights go, that's part of the modern world, and any culture that does not embrace it has no business existing on our planet today.

Quote
There are big problems here, problems which do cry up to Heaven at least as much as anything the Muslims are guilty of.  So while this lady's anti-Muslim argument is fundamentally correct, the idea that we are on stable ground ourselves as a civilization is delusional.

No one every said we were perfect, but we're infinitely better than Islam, and more importantly we are better than what we were in the past.

Quote
Upon reflection, I often feel our own position to be akin to that of the earliest Christians living in Rome.  I "pray for the Emperor" and the institutions of the state; but I fully recognize there is much that is rotten about both Caesar and his Empire, and would not be at all surprised if God favoured the barbarians over us.

And of that very Ceasar whom you condemn, St. Paul taught us that he did not bear the sword in vain. And so can our leaders today, in wielding the sword against Islam, use the sword not in vain but to the Glory of God.
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2006, 09:19:21 AM »

Nothing wrong with conquering moslem nations...the problems come when we give them back, we should learn from history and keep these countries, make them part of our Empire and use an iron fist to eliminate opposition (including the Moslem religion)...in a hundred years everyone would be much better off

GiC,

    Contrary to your screen name, I swear you were meant to be born a "radical Serb" in the heart of Kosovo or Bosnia!!!  Grin Grin Grin

     Also, I understand what you are saying here, but I don't think it is realistic (even if it were attempted).  Look at the Ottomans in the Balkans.  In some regions in the Balkans, the Turks attempted to wipe out all traces of Orthodoxy (like Bosnia).  They forbid Orthodox Churches/worship, banished or murdered clergy and even forbid Serbian cultural ceremonies, as a means of Islamicizing Serbs.  They were successful with about 1/2 the population, but ultimately the Serbian population learned to adapt.  Slava's were done in secret.  Liturgy was held in homes instead of Churches and while music and dancing was forbidden, Serbs in Bosnia, began a tradition of dancing to the jingling sounds of coins which were a part of traditional womens clothing.

Quote
The problem is islam and islamic culture, that is what makes them impossible to live with, that is why they must be destroyed. It's either us or them.
I agree and a big part of their culture is fear and intimidation.  There is virtually no dissent in Islam, which makes this women's statements even more compelling.

Quote
to be honest, with my experience with atheists I have found them to be far more loving and caring than many Christians I have known
But who are we supposed to be loving and caring towards?  Isn't it everyone, including the muslims?  I'm asking that genuinely, because I often feel like I am betraying my Orthodox Christian values when I'm railing against Islam.

Quote
It's not the modesty of the moslems that we condemn, but the fact that they force it on others.
I couldn't agree more, but still think you are a closet radical Serb!!!  Grin

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And of that very Ceasar whom you condemn, St. Paul taught us that he did not bear the sword in vain. And so can our leaders today, in wielding the sword against Islam, use the sword not in vain but to the Glory of God.
How about we call you Vojislav Seselj (get S1389 to tell you who he is if you don't know)! Wink
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2006, 09:41:48 AM »

Contrary to your screen name, I swear you were meant to be born a "radical Serb" in the heart of Kosovo or Bosnia!!!  Grin Grin Grin

I'll take that as a complement...and I'm assuming that's how you intended it  Grin Undecided Grin

Quote
Also, I understand what you are saying here, but I don't think it is realistic (even if it were attempted).  Look at the Ottomans in the Balkans.  In some regions in the Balkans, the Turks attempted to wipe out all traces of Orthodoxy (like Bosnia).  They forbid Orthodox Churches/worship, banished or murdered clergy and even forbid Serbian cultural ceremonies, as a means of Islamicizing Serbs.  They were successful with about 1/2 the population, but ultimately the Serbian population learned to adapt.  Slava's were done in secret.  Liturgy was held in homes instead of Churches and while music and dancing was forbidden, Serbs in Bosnia, began a tradition of dancing to the jingling sounds of coins which were a part of traditional womens clothing.

Well, remember that technology prohibited the Ottomans from being more thorough than we could be today, but also look at the history of many more countries that were once Christian, occupied by the Moslems, and today are Moslem Countries...perhaps the Serbs are just more stubborn than most Wink Plus, it's not like the moslems were offering a religion that was any better than what the Serbs already had...in in Islamic countries, from a social perspective anything would be better than what they already have, it is really not hard to get people to choose freedom over oppression in the matter of a few generations.

Quote
But who are we supposed to be loving and caring towards?  Isn't it everyone, including the muslims?  I'm asking that genuinely, because I often feel like I am betraying my Orthodox Christian values when I'm railing against Islam.

On an individual basis, you have a wonderful point, and if a Moslem showed up at my door I would offer him the same hospitality that I would give to a Christian, atheist, buddhist, or any other human being...but as an institution Islam is evil and should be destroyed. It an idea that is not more contradictory than someone who had great respect for the German People and German Culture, and was even able to respect the German soldier, yet supported a war to destroy fascism during WWII, infact this attitude describes most English and Americans (well, the english might have become somewhat more bitter towards the individuals after the Battle of Britain, but you know what I mean)

Quote
I couldn't agree more, but still think you are a closet radical Serb!!!  Grin
How about we call you Vojislav Seselj (get S1389 to tell you who he is if you don't know)! Wink

 Grin
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2006, 12:46:05 PM »

But who are we supposed to be loving and caring towards?  Isn't it everyone, including the muslims?  I'm asking that genuinely, because I often feel like I am betraying my Orthodox Christian values when I'm railing against Islam.  

On an individual basis, you have a wonderful point, and if a Moslem showed up at my door I would offer him the same hospitality that I would give to a Christian, atheist, buddhist, or any other human being...but as an institution Islam is evil and should be destroyed. It an idea that is not more contradictory than someone who had great respect for the German People and German Culture, and was even able to respect the German soldier, yet supported a war to destroy fascism during WWII, infact this attitude describes most English and Americans (well, the english might have become somewhat more bitter towards the individuals after the Battle of Britain, but you know what I mean)

A point that bears repeating often!
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2006, 09:40:00 PM »

I agree absolutely with Augustine's remarks. The contemporary "Christian" countries shouldn't be too much proud of themselves.
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2006, 09:43:25 PM »

What good does it do to allow a baby to be born only to grow up in the oppression of islamic culture and society? If the moslems allowed abortion it would be an act of mercy.
This argument is horrible. I cannot believe that a Christian may think in such a manner. Abortion is a crime against human life. Period.
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2006, 09:47:55 PM »

This argument is horrible. I cannot believe that a Christian may think in such a manner. Abortion is a crime against human life. Period.

So is Islam.
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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2006, 05:19:39 AM »

The important for us, as Orthodox Christians, is to be able to make the distinction between the Evil and the man who commits an evil act, under the influence of the Evil one, even in the Name of God! This the case, among others, of the Muslims who, out of ignorance, follow a false prophet, a deceived one and a deceiver. Indeed, in cases like that of the fanatic Muslims, the hatred may be presented to our mind as a "normal" reaction.
Well, the question is: how could someone arrive at the point to make the distinction between an evil religion and the followers of it, who have not been taught that God is Love and that Logos was made Flesh? I think, the answer is what the Fathers say "we have been taught to hate the Sin, not the Sinner".
In fact, this is one - but very important - aspect of the fullfillment of the commandment of love. How could we apply this principle to our lives? It is extremely hard, yes! Well, this can be achieved only by the Grace of God through our personal effort and a tremendous spiritual struggle. Judging from what I have read in the patristic and ascetic literature, I can say there is no other way. ÂÂ
St Stephen wouldn't have prayed for his executioners during his martyrdom if he hadn't already been a holy man, by the Grace of God. His holiness even before his martyrdom is testified by the Acts of the Apostles (6,15): "And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel".
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2006, 12:17:04 PM »

I can't believe that Sesej came into the conversation, what a web-site!!!   Grin
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2006, 12:30:50 PM »

Pic of GiC at HCHC.
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2006, 02:13:28 PM »

Nah, that's not me, automatic weapons are for suppression fire, and barrel is not long enough on that to give good accuracy, if I was carrying an automatic it would be belt fed (7.62mm, of course, if you're using the 5.56mm you might as well just be shooting paint)...otherwise I would prefer to stick with a reliable semi-auto (or possibly bolt-action if scoped - unless I could get my hands on one of those new M107 .50 cals) accurate 7.62mm (the M1 Garand would be better, but supply of .30 cal (as with the .50 cal) could be a problem as production centres for amunition are fewer and further between)...but I do think I have that pin he's wearing on his hat, or something very similar Wink
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2006, 02:22:29 PM »

The important for us, as Orthodox Christians, is to be able to make the distinction between the Evil and the man who commits an evil act, under the influence of the Evil one, even in the Name of God! This the case, among others, of the Muslims who, out of ignorance, follow a false prophet, a deceived one and a deceiver. Indeed, in cases like that of the fanatic Muslims, the hatred may be presented to our mind as a "normal" reaction.
Well, the question is: how could someone arrive at the point to make the distinction between an evil religion and the followers of it, who have not been taught that God is Love and that Logos was made Flesh? I think, the answer is what the Fathers say "we have been taught to hate the Sin, not the Sinner".
In fact, this is one - but very important - aspect of the fullfillment of the commandment of love. How could we apply this principle to our lives? It is extremely hard, yes! Well, this can be achieved only by the Grace of God through our personal effort and a tremendous spiritual struggle. Judging from what I have read in the patristic and ascetic literature, I can say there is no other way. ÂÂ
St Stephen wouldn't have prayed for his executioners during his martyrdom if he hadn't already been a holy man, by the Grace of God. His holiness even before his martyrdom is testified by the Acts of the Apostles (6,15): "And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel".

Actually, I believe I made that point, but the destruction of the Evil of Islam may have some cost in the lives of its followers, but the defeat of Islam would be the greater good. As far as my statement about death being preferable to living under the oppression of Islam, I'll stand by that statement, but perhaps that's my enlightenement revolutionary philosophy at work, ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΑ Ή ΘΑΝΑΤΟΣ!
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« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2006, 02:40:21 PM »

Nah, that's not me, automatic weapons are for suppression fire, and barrel is not long enough on that to give good accuracy, if I was carrying an automatic it would be belt fed (7.62mm, of course, if you're using the 5.56mm you might as well just be shooting paint)...otherwise I would prefer to stick with a reliable semi-auto (or possibly bolt-action if scoped - unless I could get my hands on one of those new M107 .50 cals) accurate 7.62mm (the M1 Garand would be better, but supply of .30 cal (as with the .50 cal) could be a problem as production centres for amunition are fewer and further between)...but I do think I have that pin he's wearing on his hat, or something very similar Wink
Oy vey... the first seminary student fit to be head of the NRA.  Grin Grin

By the way, that was Seslj in the photo, but you probably already knew that.
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« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2006, 03:28:12 PM »

Oy vey... the first seminary student fit to be head of the NRA.  Grin Grin

Oh, I'm by no means the first, but I do come from a family of staunch NRA supporters, my grandfather probably gives a higher percent of his yearly income to the NRA-ILA than 99.9% of Orthodox give to the Church (not that that's saying much) Wink

Quote
By the way, that was Seslj in the photo, but you probably already knew that.

He looked familiar, but couldn't place a name to the face; he was a good man and is an unfortunate victim of the politically motivated kangaroo court that is the Hague.
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2006, 04:07:11 PM »

Oh, I'm by no means the first, but I do come from a family of staunch NRA supporters, my grandfather probably gives a higher percent of his yearly income to the NRA-ILA than 99.9% of Orthodox give to the Church (not that that's saying much) Wink
Sorry GiC, but I'm firmly in the "nobody in the world should own a gun camp". <cringing while waiting for your response>lol

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He looked familiar, but couldn't place a name to the face; he was a good man and is an unfortunate victim of the politically motivated kangaroo court that is the Hague.
The all-time funniest politician in Serbian history.  I wish you could speak Serbian, because boy oh boy could I send you some video clips of things he's said!!!
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2006, 10:57:42 PM »

send it to him anyway.  When i come back from spring break i'll translate it for him on the spot.  

that is if you want it GiC
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2006, 11:27:46 PM »

While the faith of the Mohammedans is largely in lies, it is superior to the de facto atheism of the west, if only because it is stronger and creates harder, more principled men.

I'd feel safer facing God on Judgement Day if I were an atheistic Norwegian wuss rather than a macho Saudi Muslim who murders his sister because she was raped by a stranger and my "honor" was offended when the community found out about it.
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2006, 02:09:33 AM »

Sorry GiC, but I'm firmly in the "nobody in the world should own a gun camp". <cringing while waiting for your response>lol

Well, this is one of the issues in American politics that no amount of debate will solve, I would die to defend my posistion and I'm guessing you're almost as adamant about yours. Though I will say that I strongly support laws that would require every person above the age of 16 to own a firearm that is capable of military use and at least 2000 rounds of ammunition. My personal preference would be to standardize this as the M1 Garand, but if the military inists on M16's, then so be it. Furthermore, I believe the second amendment forbids the restricting of any military weapon and that laws restricting this right to keep and bear arms are both unconstitutional and treasonous.

Yet as I seriously doubt you'll be budged from your posistion and I know without a doubt that I will never be budged from mine, it would probably be best if we simply agreed to disagree...lol.

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The all-time funniest politician in Serbian history.  I wish you could speak Serbian, because boy oh boy could I send you some video clips of things he's said!!!

Well if you got something good, and if serb1389 is willing to translate it for me, I would be happy to see and hear it.
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« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2006, 01:40:59 AM »

SHOCKING UPDATE: Practioners from the 'Religion of Peace' threaten life of women after debate on Al  Jazeera....  (my headline)

For Muslim Who Says Violence Destroys Islam, Violent Threats

By JOHN M. BRODER NY Times.com
Published: March 11, 2006


LOS ANGELES, March 10 — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.

Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.

In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.

She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

Dr. Sultan said the world was not witnessing a clash of religions or cultures, but a battle between modernity and barbarism, a battle that the forces of violent, reactionary Islam are destined to lose.

In response, clerics throughout the Muslim world have condemned her, and her telephone answering machine has filled with dark threats. But Islamic reformers have praised her for saying out loud, in Arabic and on the most widely seen television network in the Arab world, what few Muslims dare to say even in private.

"I believe our people are hostages to our own beliefs and teachings," she said in an interview this week in her home in a Los Angeles suburb.

Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."

Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

<snip>

But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.

"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."
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« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2006, 01:49:33 AM »

Wow.....and this is coming from the New York Times of all places. I hope and pray that there will not be a retraction and apology.. Grin
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« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2006, 05:46:20 AM »

Very brave lady taking on the islamo-fascist.....

Am I brave for taking on Removed because it crossed the line into American Politics.  Please take it to the politics forum?
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« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2006, 03:41:49 AM »

The Religion of Peace strikes again!

Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity
Sunday, March 19, 2006
FoxNews.com  http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188364,00.html

EXCERPT:
KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday.

The defendant, Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family went to the police and accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told the Associated Press in an interview. Such a conversion would violate the country's Islamic laws.

Rahman, who is believed to be 41, was charged with rejecting Islam when his trial started last week, the judge said.

During the hearing, the defendant allegedly confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago when he was 25 and working as a medical aid worker for Afghan refugees in neighboring Pakistan, Mawlavezada said.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which states that any Muslim who rejects their religion should be sentenced to death.

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam. ... The prosecutor is asking for the death penalty."
----------------


Dam...and I thought Afghanistan was going to be free. It's the Taliban all over again. Where are all the people that view Christianity as being such a huge threat to their civil liberties in this country? Not a word from the school marms and 'green' crowd'? We know if it were the other way around and a Christian judge was executing somebody for being non-Christian, we'd never hear the end of it....and yet the so-called "peaceful Muslims" remain silent over this? Ahh,that's right, the ohh so large monolithic group of moderate muslims... Roll Eyes I would like to know where are all the outbursts from the ACLU over this? Oh, that's right.... they're too busy trying to sue Christanity out of existence. It's too bad they can't even see who the real enemy is. I better stop here before I say something that may get me banned. Looks more and more like it was a mistake for us to go over to the middle east. If I had any say in the matter, I would have reccomended putting a large wall between them and the rest of the 'civilized' world.  When they are ready to step out of the 7th century, then maybe they can come out and play with the rest of us...until then, I hope widespread decay and famine comes over thier lands. (there, I said it!)


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« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2006, 09:05:51 AM »

Taliban or no, if they don't get the sharia out of their civil law, then this is what's going to happen.
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« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2006, 09:53:13 AM »

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2006, 10:18:51 AM »

Dam...and I thought Afghanistan was going to be free. It's the Taliban all over again. Where are all the people that view Christianity as being such a huge threat to their civil liberties in this country? Not a word from the school marms and 'green' crowd'? We know if it were the other way around and a Christian judge was executing somebody for being non-Christian, we'd never hear the end of it....and yet the so-called "peaceful Muslims" remain silent over this? Ahh,that's right, the ohh so large monolithic group of moderate muslims... Roll Eyes I would like to know where are all the outbursts from the ACLU over this? Oh, that's right.... they're too busy trying to sue Christanity out of existence. It's too bad they can't even see who the real enemy is. I better stop here before I say something that may get me banned. Looks more and more like it was a mistake for us to go over to the middle east. If I had any say in the matter, I would have reccomended putting a large wall between them and the rest of the 'civilized' world.  When they are ready to step out of the 7th century, then maybe they can come out and play with the rest of us...until then, I hope widespread decay and famine comes over thier lands. (there, I said it!)

I didn't suspect the moslems would change much on their own and our letting them re-establish their government without our assistance is a joke. Oh well, hopefully we can turn this into an excuse to bomb them...if they want to live in the 7th century I'm more than happy to keep them there. I understand that random carpet-bombing of densely populated areas probably wont help things on the ground too much, but, heck, it's easier than an occupation and free-falling bombs arn't that expensive and it would be a step closer to what our ultimate goal should be...the Complete Destruction of Islam by ALL Means Necessary. I mean, with a 99% Moslem population, even with random and indiscriminate carpet-bombing you can be certain you're hitting a legitimate target, well 99% of the time.
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« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2006, 11:32:17 AM »

GiC,

Quote
...the Complete Destruction of Islam by ALL Means Necessary. I mean, with a 99% Moslem population, even with random and indiscriminate carpet-bombing you can be certain you're hitting a legitimate target, well 99% of the time.

Do you express this viewpoint of yours as one representative of Christian morality? In other words, let's say I could ask Christ one question, and I (because i'm an idiot) decided to waste it on asking whether or not He would condone the execution of the above-quoted idea; how would Christ, as depicted in the head of GiC, respond?
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« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2006, 12:03:34 PM »

I hope Dr Sultan will not have to face trial at the Hague for a hate crime against her own religion.
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« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2006, 01:35:07 PM »

Do you express this viewpoint of yours as one representative of Christian morality? In other words, let's say I could ask Christ one question, and I (because i'm an idiot) decided to waste it on asking whether or not He would condone the execution of the above-quoted idea; how would Christ, as depicted in the head of GiC, respond?

Perhaps he'd respond with something along the lines of: 'For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.'

Not that I'd compare the US President to the Emperor of Rome, but in the absence of our most beloved Emperor, the vice-regent of Christ on Earth, someone must act as defender of Righteousness and perhaps that someone is the US in this current conflict.

Or perhaps he'd say '[Islam] shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.'

Yes, I'll grant that this is a culturally and socially motivated verse and probably not from the mouth of God, but that doesn't mean that God opposes it either. I'm generally fairly tolerant of other religions...except Islam...in that case I believe it is a struggle to the death and one only one side Islam or Civilization will remain standing in the end. I cast my lot in with civilization, and believe our victory must be total, no matter what the Cost. And as I view this as self-defence I see no evil or wrong-doing in my proposed actions.
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« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2006, 01:38:48 PM »

Interesting that GiC opposes the death penalty for pedophiles and other child killers - yet he has no qualms about carpet-bombing innocent children simply because their parents are Muslims, or they simply have never been given another option.
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« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2006, 01:53:54 PM »

Interesting that GiC opposes the death penalty for pedophiles and other child killers - yet he has no qualms about carpet-bombing innocent children simply because their parents are Muslims, or they simply have never been given another option.

But look at the crimes that I do advocate the death penalty for, treason and cowardice and espionage during time of war. Crimes that threaten the the very essence of a society, not merely crimes against one or two people. I believe Islam fits into this category, it is a threat to not only our society but to civilization itself and thus is a crime more akin to treason than murder. Of course, this only applies to people living within our society...for those living outside our society, they should simply be viewed as a hostile enemy force and dealt with in accordince with methods that are used to resolve conflicts between different societies and not methods that are used to resolve conflicts within society.
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« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2006, 02:01:08 PM »

And you think a child should be killed becasue of his/her parents/societal religion? A child is a threat to us?
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« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2006, 02:12:10 PM »

And you think a child should be killed becasue of his/her parents/societal religion? A child is a threat to us?

Actually, if you recall, the posistion that I have posted many times is that I believe we should occupy Islamic states, take the Children from the parents and raise them as non-Moslems (Christian, Secular, Buddhist, whatever...I'm not to concerned about the specifics as long as it is anti-Moslem) in State Schools, outlaw Islam using massive financial penalties rather than bloodshed for violation of said law, and perhaps eliminate those at the top who are the leaders of Islam and over the Course of 50-100 years we could eliminate Islam with as little bloodshed as possible.

However, we are also in the middle of a war, and the Moslems in their attacks from Israel to New York have demonstrated that this is total war, everyone is a valid target Military and 'Civilian,' Man, Woman, and Child. Since one side has clearly demonstrated that they are conducting total war (and are not even wearing military uniforms to distinguish 'Civilian' from 'Military' on their side...essentially eliminating any such distinctions) without being restrained by the rules of war, the other side can not reasonably be expected to be unilaterally handicapped by the rules of war. Furthermore, we are fighting a war against an ideology, making anyone who holds this ideology a potential enemy asset, if not in military terms then in propganda terms.

In short, giving the disregard for the rules of war by the other side we cannot be unilaterally bound by said rules.
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« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2006, 08:42:11 PM »

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Interesting that GiC opposes the death penalty for pedophiles and other child killers - yet he has no qualms about carpet-bombing innocent children simply because their parents are Muslims, or they simply have never been given another option.

No, you really miss the most interesting blatant contradiction in all this. GiC will oppose the God-inspired conquest of Canaan, to the extent of debasing Scripture of its divine inspiration (i.e. because it was apparently just a made up story by the Jews), upon the basis that an all-loving God could not possibly have been the instigator of such a Holy War excercised for the purpose of pre-emptive self-defense inter alia, yet he will elsewhere not only defend the bombing of an entire non-Christian nation, but he will even defend the slaughter of millions of Orthodox Christians in Egypt, Syria, Jerusalem, Armenia etc.

It is thus obvious that GiC has some personal issues with Islam, and considering his semi-divine worship of unholy emperors, we can most reasonably attribute this personal thorn in GiC's heart to the fact that Islam was the downfall of his unholy emperor (not to the mention that the imprudence of his emperor assissted the spread of Islam in the first place). Glory be to God that Constantinople fell; each according to their deeds. It's funny that although Coptic persecution under Islamic rule is usually a hot topic, most textbooks in describing the transition from Byzantine to Islamic rule in Egypt, usually express the fact that such a transition was the cause of relief for the Copts.
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« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2006, 10:03:22 PM »

And you think a child should be killed becasue of his/her parents/societal religion? A child is a threat to us?

This is the problem faced by us; because we're concerned about the safety of others; Islam doesn't have such qualms
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« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2006, 10:41:49 PM »

This is the problem faced by us; because we're concerned about the safety of others; Islam doesn't have such qualms

Generalization is the first step down the road of genocide. Please review the history of propoganda.
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« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2006, 10:48:26 PM »

No, you really miss the most interesting blatant contradiction in all this. GiC will oppose the God-inspired conquest of Canaan, to the extent of debasing Scripture of its divine inspiration (i.e. because it was apparently just a made up story by the Jews), upon the basis that an all-loving God could not possibly have been the instigator of such a Holy War excercised for the purpose of pre-emptive self-defense inter alia, yet he will elsewhere not only defend the bombing of an entire non-Christian nation, but he will even defend the slaughter of millions of Orthodox Christians in Egypt, Syria, Jerusalem, Armenia etc.

You are correct in that I do not believe that the invasion of Canaan was commanded by God, nor were the wars of the Empire. However, I do not believe they are condemned by God...the wars were legitimate in both cases, not in neither case were they directly commanded by God, where such claims are made it's simply an attempt to establish legitimacy. Furthermore, my greatest problems in the old testament do not come from stories made up to justify invasions but elements of the Law of Moses that are theologically contrary to the Christian Faith.

Quote
It is thus obvious that GiC has some personal issues with Islam,

Yes, I personally quite dislike them, I'll admit to that...however, when I do my best to objectively step back and look at Islam from a neutral secular perspective, without the cloud of what they did to the Empire hanging over the issue, I still see a bunch of religious fundamentalists that are encroaching on western civilization and are not conforming, I still see a substantial threat, Religious Issues and the Fall of the Empire aside. From this point of view it still seems rational to neutralize the threat. This is the reason that I do not have the same objection to Hindus, or Buddhists, or Pagans, etc. that I have to Islam, yes from a Christial Religious perspective they can be regarded as just as bad as Islam, but if you step back and look at them objectively, they are not a threat like Islam.

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and considering his semi-divine worship of unholy emperors, we can most reasonably attribute this personal thorn in GiC's heart to the fact that Islam was the downfall of his unholy emperor (not to the mention that the imprudence of his emperor assissted the spread of Islam in the first place).

I hardly worship our most blessed and holy Emperors and Empresses, but I do recognize that they were the Vice Regents of Christ on Earth and I do offer veneration to those who have been decreed Saints by the Holy Church.

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Glory be to God that Constantinople fell;

In all things Glory should be given to God, no matter how hard they are for us to bear; just as he was Glorified in the Death of his Martyrs, so also was he Glorified in the fall of His City and the Noble Deaths of those who fell defending Her.

Quote
It's funny that although Coptic persecution under Islamic rule is usually a hot topic, most textbooks in describing the transition from Byzantine to Islamic rule in Egypt, usually express the fact that such a transition was the cause of relief for the Copts.

Perhaps they should have acted like citizens of the Empire and been more loyal to their Emperor...but I guess you got what you wanted in the end: no longer were you subject to the laws and rule of the God-Appointed Emperor of the Romans, but rather you have been able to enjoy 1400 years of slavery under Islam, of which, from these last posts, it would seem that you have grown quite fond.
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« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2006, 10:53:11 PM »

Generalization is the first step down the road of genocide. Please review the history of propoganda.

I have...probably in far more depth than you ever will. I regard myself as a student and connoisseur of the art.
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« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2006, 12:19:56 AM »

That was an excellent response greekischristian Wink
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« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2006, 12:25:00 AM »

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You are correct in that I do not believe that the invasion of Canaan was commanded by God, nor were the wars of the Empire. However, I do not believe they are condemned by God...the wars were legitimate in both cases

Did you really think you were going to get away with such deception? Or is it that you have simply forgotten your own arguments and line of reasoning? The very position which lay at the basis of your attempt to discredit the history recounted in the book of Joshua, was that which posited that an all-loving God could not possibly have been the instigator of such events; it is clearly implicit in such an argument that there is a moral dichotomy between the actions and commands of an omnibenevolent God, and the conquest of Canaan. Clearly then, your position did not entail that God simply didn’t do it, but rather that He didn’t do it because He couldn’t do it; so don’t even try to change the story now in a cocky attempt to reconcile an irreconcilable contradiction.

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Yes, I personally quite dislike them, I'll admit to that...however, when I do my best to objectively step back and look at Islam from a neutral secular perspective

Quit the BS rhetoric GiC; you clearly fail to purport a neutral perspective on this issue, hence the afore-exposed blatant contradiction in your position.

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but I do recognize that they were the Vice Regents of Christ on Earth

Your emperors were no more or less the Vice Regents of Christ on earth than the emperor Diocletian, or even Sadam Hussein when he was president of Iraq.

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In all things Glory should be given to God

Indeed, especially when He serves due justice to doers of Evil — just putting my initial statement into context just in case you misunderstand.

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Perhaps they should have acted like citizens of the Empire and been more loyal to their Emperor

Fortunately, they were too busy acting like citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven (you know, the children of God); their loyalty was towards the Almighty God, rather than human politicians; their loyalty was towards the Orthodox Truth and the Tradition of the Church, and not towards political compromise of that Truth and Tradition.

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but I guess you got what you wanted in the end

And you go what you deserved in the end, and now look at Constantinople; a weak and feeble city. There are even more Armenian Orthodox in Constantinople than Greek Chalcedonians.

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no longer were you subject to the laws and rule of the God-Appointed Emperor of the Romans

Right, for now we were subject to the laws and rule of the more lenient God-Appointed Caliphs of Islam (which is how we would regard the Caliphs if we were to logically extend the whole “God-Appointed political ministers” principle of St Paul, objectively).
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« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2006, 12:27:46 AM »

That was an excellent response greekischristian Wink

It is quite understandable that you would appeal to a Marcionite and a defender of murderers, in your desparation to justify (within yourself that is) your apostasy from the True Church of God.  Wink

P.S. How was the cheeeeeese?
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« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2006, 01:42:58 AM »

It's funny that although Coptic persecution under Islamic rule is usually a hot topic, most textbooks in describing the transition from Byzantine to Islamic rule in Egypt, usually express the fact that such a transition was the cause of relief for the Copts.

My question is: Do you still prefer the Islamic rule since the Christians have become a small minority in Egypt, after the mass conversion of Coptic Christians to Islam? It reminds me of the conversion of the Albanians,with the difference that the majority of Albanians are pseudo-muslims and many of them convert nowdays to Orthodoxy or to Catholicism. If the majority of the Copts really believe so, then they should not look to the Orthodox (=Chalcedonian) Christians for sympathy. However, I don't think at all that our brothers, the Coptic Christians of Egypt, are really glad to live under so many discriminations on behalf of a semi-Islamic state, as they actually do.
A second point: Armenia during the 5th and the 6th c., that means during the conflict over Chalcedon, wasn't a part of the Byzantine Empire. Writing that anti-Chalcedonian Armenians perished under the "blood-thirsty" Byzantine Emperors (by the way, Severus was made patriarch by the Byzantine Emperor Anastasius I!), is an inaccuracy. You project the present relationship between the Armenian and the Coptic non-Chalcedonian churches to the historical facts of the 5th-6th c.! This is more than an over-simplification. Let's avoid the libels please.
A third point: Oppression on behalf of a state against a part of its population doesn't necessarily mean "massacres". By the way, Alexandria was a city with a tradition in riots, as it is proven also by a couple of well-known serious incidents that happened there during the patriarchate of St Cyril. Let's be more accurate please and avoid using strong expressions for the sake of impressions.
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« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2006, 02:41:32 AM »

Yiannis,

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My question is: Do you still prefer the Islamic rule since the Christians have become a small minority in Egypt, after the mass conversion of Coptic Christians to Islam?

No, I certainly do not. I was simply making an historical observation. The persecution under Byzantine rule was so harsh at the time that when the Muslim’s took over, there was a sense of relief amongst the Copts. I have no reason to believe that Chalcedonian rule today would result in the re-persecution of the Copts, especially considering the friendly and warm relations presently shared between our hierarchs.

Quote
A second point: Armenia during the 5th and the 6th c., that means during the conflict over Chalcedon, wasn't a part of the Byzantine Empire. Writing that Armenians perished under the "blood-thirsty" Byzantine Emperors (by the way, Severus was made patriarch by the Byzantine Emperor Anastasius I!), is an inaccuracy. Let's avoid the libels please.

"At the beginning of the 7th century Heraklios (610-641 A.D.) ascended the throne of the East-Roman Empire. After he defeated the Persians and conquered Mesopotamia, he forced his way into Syria in 612 A.D. In 629 A.D. he occupied Damascus. Following that he tried earnestly to restore the religious unity in his empire to unite the Syrians, Copts and Armenians with the Byzantines. This happened on the one hand through promises and on the other hand through threats. Very often he used ruthless oppression through which many Syrians, Copts, and Armenians became martyrs. The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam." From, "A Short Overview of the Common History of the Syrian Church with Islam through the Centuries", Patriarchal Journal (of the Syrian Orthodox Church), Vol. 33 - June 1995 - No. 146, pp. 322-344.

Armenians were apparently nonetheless persecuted, whatever political position the state of Armenia may have had with respect to the Byzantine Empire at the time, and I think that's the relevant point here.

As for St. Severos, he was persecuted by subsequent Emperors. I don’t think I have made a categorical statement with respect to any and every emperor being a source of persecution and slaughter of non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Christians.

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A third point: Oppression on behalf of a state against a part of its population doesn't necessarily mean "massacres".

According to our own history books, and many secular historical accounts also, the persecutions that took place were on a level of massacre at times, especially under the reign of Justinian.

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By the way, Alexandria was a city with a tradition in riots, as it is proven also by a couple of well-known serious incidents that happened there during the patriarchate of St Cyril.

Indeed; in fact, such riots took place subsequent to Chalcedon also, and were responsible for the murder of the first Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria, who was burned alive and dragged through the streets by a crowd of rioters. I don’t however recall that such actions were either a) being instigated or endorsed by authorities of the Church, or b) being on wide-scale.

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Let's be more accurate please and avoid using strong expressions for the sake of impressions.

I am sorry if I have offended you, but I assure you I do not have an agenda — I am not trying to make an “impression”. GiC is known to have praised and glorified the persecution of our Fathers, and my primary purpose within the context of this thread is to prove that such a position, in addition to his position on how we should deal with Muslims (i.e. annhilation "by all means necessary") clearly contradicts his position on the conquest of Canaan (as recounted in the book of Joshua), which he has denied as being historically true, by virtue of the notion that to have commanded such a conquest would have been uncharacteristic of God.
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« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2006, 06:55:33 AM »

"At the beginning of the 7th century Heraklios (610-641 A.D.) ascended the throne of the East-Roman Empire. After he defeated the Persians and conquered Mesopotamia, he forced his way into Syria in 612 A.D. In 629 A.D. he occupied Damascus. Following that he tried earnestly to restore the religious unity in his empire to unite the Syrians, Copts and Armenians with the Byzantines. This happened on the one hand through promises and on the other hand through threats. Very often he used ruthless oppression through which many Syrians, Copts, and Armenians became martyrs. The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam." From, "A Short Overview of the Common History of the Syrian Church with Islam through the Centuries", Patriarchal Journal (of the Syrian Orthodox Church), Vol. 33 - June 1995 - No. 146, pp. 322-344.
In fact, Heraclius looked for a compromise between Chalcedonians and their opponents. He was not an ardent defenser of Chalcedon. I has to be noticed that the Persians, during the time they occupied the Byzantine territories, showed themselves favorable to the Anti-Chalcedonians. "They made some effort to placate the population, by favoring Monophysites and expelling the Jews from Jerusalem in 617 in favor of Christian settlers" (W. Treadgold, A History of the Byzantine State and Society, Stanford University Press, 1997, p. 292). But I'll look for further reading on this subject (there are more than one monographies on Heraclius and his era, which I have to consult whenever I find some time).
It is interesting that during the same period, the Orthodox/Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria St John the Almsgiver, by his personal virtue and holiness, managed not only to attract quite a few Monophysites/Non-Chalcedonians to the Orthodox/Chalcedonian Church , but he was also negotiating a Church union with the Non-Chalcedonian majority.

Indeed; in fact, such riots took place subsequent to Chalcedon also, and were responsible for the murder of the first Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria, who was burned alive and dragged through the streets by a crowd of rioters.

So, the historical reality is much more complicated than the stereotypes. The victims might become persecutors and vice versa. In fact, the followers of Dioscoros did to St Proterios, the Orthodox/Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria (+457), murdered in a cruel manner in a baptistery at the very night of the Holy Resurrection, what they had done some years earlier to the Pagan philosopher Hypatia, during the patriarchate of St Cyril (a very sad incident, that caused the reaction of St Isidore of Pelousion and didn't favor at all Cyrill's reputation; he was not personally responsible for that murder and I am sure he would like to prevent it, but...). The oncle of St Cyrill, Patriarch Theophilus (he has never been regarded as a saint by the Orthodox Church) has gained the surname of "Christian Pharaoh", because of his secular power and his hyper-autocratic character.

GiC is known to have praised and glorified the persecution of our Fathers, and my primary purpose within the context of this thread is to prove that such a position, in addition to his position on how we should deal with Muslims (i.e. annhilation "by all means necessary")
GiC's posts about Muslims contradict the basic principles not only of the Orthodox faith, but, generally of the Christian attitude towards our ennemies. In other posts I remarked that the "objective" manner he interprets the Fathers of the Church as merely extremely intelligent and well-educated Christian intellectuals, who followed and developped the heritage of Platon, has nothing to do with the "Orthodox way" of theology, as the Church has been experiencing it through the centuries, from the time of the Apostles to our times, that we were marked by such great and deep Orthodox theologians (considered by many as true Church Fathers) as Fr Sophrony Sakharov, Fr Justin Popovich, Fr Dimitriu Staniloae (not to mention others such Fr George Florovsky and Vladimir Lossky).
"Objective view" of the Fathers doesn't exist; a secular view of them, yes, it does exist. But even the secular view, which may follow some modern academic standards, is not by no means an objective view. There is no "objective view" of history and, perhaps even more, there is no "objective view" of theology. Either you try to be faithful to the mind of the Fathers and combine occupation with theology with intense prayer and spiritual struggle or not. I posted the Life of St Gregory the Wonderworker by St Gregory of Nyssa as a proof that the Fathers weren't just gifted intellectuals, but also grace-filled men of God (see: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8503.msg112369#msg112369). The term "God-bearing Fathers" is more than common in the Church litterature and it does have a content! Theology without the Grace of the Holy Spirit (which has nothing to do with magic!) is a dead letter. It is not accidental that St Symeon, whom we would call today "a non-academic theologian", was called "the New Theologian". I would strongly recommend the book of Archimandrite Zacharias on the theology of Elder Sophrony, which follows the academic standards Wink, for everyone who wants to undestand what "truly patristic mind" means.
Of course, everyone is free to believe and say whatever he wants and even to bring forward numerous arguments and wasting his time in endless discussions. However, for someone who wants to be a humble member of the Orthodox Church, that means a member of Christ's Body, there is no "Orthodoxy a la carte". I'm afraid this is not the case of GiC who, even if he still considers himself to be an Orthodox Christian (I have my doubts about this), he has been for sure greatly deceived.
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« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2006, 08:34:32 AM »

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but he was also negotiating a Church union with the Anti-Chalcedonian majority.

The primary interest of these emperors was imperial unity, which was contingent upon Church unity by virtue of the fact that the Church and State were intertwined at the time. These emperors would indeed seek compromises, even of the faith, for the sake of Imperial unity (as we Orthodox/non-Chalcedonian believe occurred at Chalcedon in particular), yet when such attempts failed, they nonetheless resorted to other means of achieving such unity, by, for example, instigating fear in the opposing party via persecution for the sake of compelling their submission.

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It is interesting that during the same period, the Orthodox/Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria St John the Almsgiver, by his personal virtue and holiness, managed not only to attract quite a few Monophysites/Anti-Chalcedonians to the Orthodox/Chalcedonian Church ,


You can interpret history as you will, but I would recall that despite severe imperial persecution, the vast and predominant majority of Orthodox Christians in Egypt remained steadfast to the Orthodox/non-Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria, St Dioscoros the Confessor, by virtue of his personal virtue and holiness, as opposed to the Chalcedonian Patriarch who was merely an imperial puppet. It was largely the spiritual character of St Dioscoros that confirmed the Orthodox Copts of Egypt in the faith despite his exile, and the shedding of the blood of their brothers and sisters. Historian Professor J. Neale provides a balanced depiction of St. Dioscoros' character, describing him as a “man of excellent disposition and much beloved for his humility. These virtues were adorned with his fiery zeal for the faith and his presence of mind" (History of the Holy Eastern Church, Vol. 1, page 278, 301) Even Theodoret of Cyrus, the arch-enemy of St Dioscoros, “whose testimony in [St Dioscorus’] favour cannot be suspected, declared in a letter to Dioscorus, soon after his consecration, that the fame of his virtues, and particularly of his modesty and humility, was widely spread (Ep. 60)” ÂÂ (Wace, H., A Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies)

The dominating population of the OO in the present day ancient Patriarchal lands is testimony to the steadfast faith of the Orthodox faithful despite their always being the persecuted party, whether under pagan, Byzantine, or Islamic authorities.

As for conversions, they occurred both ways during such times of confusion; ultimately however, there was always the political factor on the Chalcedonian side, which forced many to convert for their own well being - economic and physical. The same cannot be said of the conversions made to the Orthodox/non-Chalcedonian Church, many of which St Severos in particular was responsible for, not merely by virtue of the example of holiness set through his life of asceticism, but also by virtue of his highly intellectual polemical arguments; Fr. Meyendroff in his Christ in Eastern Thought recounts how weak Chalcedonian apologetics/polemics were in the face of Orthodox/non-Chalcedonian polemics/apologetics at the time.

On a sidenote in relation to John the Chalcedonian Patriarch of Alexandria, we have a positive perspective of this man in our own history, especially with respect to his co-operation with the Orthodox/non-Chalcedonian Patriarch St Anastasius in helping those who sought refuge in Egypt:

"The arrival of these hordes of refugees was a great challenge to the people of Egypt. In pity of them and in a surge of the spirit of Christian charity, Abba Anastasius and his Bishops, together with the faithful, did all that was humanly possible to help them and alleviate their plight. But with all their good will and their charity, the services they could render were limited due to their own circumstances. The struggle with Constantinople had already taken a big toll of their property. Amidst the gloom of the situation, however, a silver lining shone through the dark clouds. God, in his infinite mercy, softened the heart of John, the intruding Patriarch and made him see the necessity of his co-operation with the Copts and their Pope to offer relief and hospitality to the refugees. Thus the legal successor of St. Mark found an ally in the man intruding upon his chair. Christian charity prevailed then." (Irish Habib, The Story of the Copts, page 359)

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The victims might become persecutors and vice versa.

Please do not evade the significant and relevant dissimilarity here. There is no valid analogy between a small mob of Orthodox Copts being fueled with passion to kill one Chalcedonian, and Chalcedonian Saints (i.e. Saints and Fathers of the Chalcedonian Church) rationally commanding, ordering and instigating wide-scale slaughters of Orthodox Christians.

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The oncle of St Cyrill, Patriarch Theophilus (he has never been regarded as a saint by the Orthodox Church) has gained the surname of "Christian Pharaoh", because of his secular power and his hyper-autocratic character.

“Pharoah” is a nickname that was assigned to St Dioscoros, St Cyril and St Theophilus, and sometimes even St Athanasios, by anti-Alexandrian polemics, usually advocated by Western RC or Protestant scholarship - for it was Rome after all (particularly via the figure of Leo), that saw Alexandria as a threat to its self-attributed Supremacy. Chalcedonians are usually just inconsistent when they launch attacks exclusively upon St Dioscoros. He was in fact the least of them who showed a desire for power; his sole desire was to preserve the Cyrillian Orthodoxy of Ephesus 431. The same cannot be said of his Chalcedonian opponents, including the patriarch of Jerusalem who betrayed him at the last minute, the imperial authorities, and especially Leo of Rome.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 08:38:56 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2006, 04:27:59 PM »

I didn't suspect the moslems would change much on their own and our letting them re-establish their government without our assistance is a joke. Oh well, hopefully we can turn this into an excuse to bomb them...if they want to live in the 7th century I'm more than happy to keep them there. I understand that random carpet-bombing of densely populated areas probably wont help things on the ground too much, but, heck, it's easier than an occupation and free-falling bombs arn't that expensive and it would be a step closer to what our ultimate goal should be...the Complete Destruction of Islam by ALL Means Necessary. I mean, with a 99% Moslem population, even with random and indiscriminate carpet-bombing you can be certain you're hitting a legitimate target, well 99% of the time.

GiC, this made me feel sick. Are you serious? God gave people free choice to do what they want, to work toward their own salvation or not, and you want to take that choice away - why? Do you know better? And to say treason is worse than murder, well who gave moses the 10 comandments? Do you think he forgot to put treason above all the rest? Perhaps you think he wanted to put treason on there but murder was easier to spell.

"when I do my best to objectively step back and look at Islam from a neutral secular perspective"

It seems like you don't know what objective or neutral is. You say that any moslem is a legitimate target, you are so wrong. I hope you rethink this. I don't know how someone can have so little compassion for human life. People living in moslem countries are still people, you have no right to take that away, and you shouldn't want to. I don't understand why you call yourself Christian.
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« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2006, 04:41:35 PM »

And to say treason is worse than murder, well who gave moses the 10 comandments? Do you think he forgot to put treason above all the rest? Perhaps you think he wanted to put treason on there but murder was easier to spell.

This is a nice try, but GiC would probably dismiss the Ten Commandments as culturally relative.

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I don't know how someone can have so little compassion for human life.

He probably justifies his low view of human life with his heretical view on eschatology i.e. the notion that no matter how one lived their life, they will "all ultimately return to the One from whom they came".

Anyways, that's enough speaking on behalf of GiC; it's just that he has a lot to answer to, so I thought id do the charitable thing and relieve him of making some responses.
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« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2006, 05:17:11 PM »

Fr. Meyendroff in his Christ in Eastern Thought recounts how weak Chalcedonian apologetics/polemics were in the face of Orthodox/non-Chalcedonian polemics/apologetics at the time.

Ouff! End of sermon! I don't suppose however that Fr John Meyendorff (who was Orthodox/Chalcedonian) considered the arguments of Severus to be stronger than the those of St Maximus the Confessor (who lived a few decades after Severus' death)!
Interestingly enough, all the (secular) dictionaries and scholar works call the Non-Chalcedonians of the 5th-6th c. "Monophysites". Could you give us one (1)exemple of scholar work in which they are called simply "Orthodox"? If it so, it would be more helpful to call them at least OO (Oriental Orthodox), so that there is no confusion.
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« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2006, 05:32:16 PM »

Please do not evade the significant and relevant dissimilarity here. There is no valid analogy between a small mob of Orthodox Copts being fueled with passion to kill one Chalcedonian, and Chalcedonian Saints (i.e. Saints and Fathers of the Chalcedonian Church) rationally commanding, ordering and instigating wide-scale slaughters of Orthodox Christians.
It seems that murders by the Alexandrian mobs were not a rare phaenomenon. In 415 Hypatia was killed by fanatic supporters of patriarch Cyrill; in 421/2 the Eparch of Alexandria Kallistos was murdered by his slaves; in 435/6 there was a terrible riot in the amphitheater of the city with more than 500 victims; in 443 there was another riot, against Eparch Charmosynos, who was killed by the mob! The Pagan rhetorician Libanius gives a very negative account of the population of Alexandria.
As for Chalcedonian Saints "rationally commanding, ordering and instigating wide-scale slaughters" of the Non-Chalcedonians, NAMES and REFERENCES PLEASE!
Well, frankly speaking, I am not interested in apologizing for the acts of the Byzantine Emperors (it would be just ridiculous), but I would like that our arguments are based on fact.
I have the impression that a few Non-Chalcedonians consider the mondern (Eastern) Orthodox to bear a collective responsibility for all the insults, humiliations or persecutions (true or imaginary) of their forefathers on behalf of the Orthodox/Chalcedonians (in fact, by the Imperial government) 14-15 c. ago! The Coptic and Syriac Christians rejoice at the fall of Constantinople in 1453 while they have become a small - and quite oppressed - minority in their own countries! They demand respect by victimizing themselves and by believing that the Orthodox/Chalcedonians are indebted to them. They even ignore the fact that the actual revival of the Coptic monasticism has been strongly influenced by the revival of the (Eastern) Orthodox monasticism through the movement of Philocalia. Sorry for adopting a polemic tone, I love the Coptic church, but I suppose that in this forum the (Eastern) Orthodox have the same rights as the OO (or not? Huh). Well, the moderator may move my post, I really don't care, I prefer speaking in public and not in private groups.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 06:01:51 PM by Yiannis » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2006, 07:05:41 PM »

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Well, the moderator may move my post, I really don't care, I prefer speaking in public and not in private groups.

I’d prefer that the EO/OO discussion group were public also, but unfortuanately it isn’t, and I don’t want to push the moderator’s patience any longer, especially considering that I highly respect the moderator of this particular section (SS99). So I have posted my lengthy response to your latest posts here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8523.msg112589#msg112589

For those who wish to follow up on the discussion, you simply have to register with the Robert to have access to it.
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« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2006, 10:33:58 PM »

The major difference between Islam and Christianity today is that Islam does the same things done in Biblical times, while Christians have evolved (as a sub-culture) to a point where they cannot countenance such barbaric acts. If you read histories of sexuality, slavery, divorce, war, the believed psychological/spiritual mindset of heretics, and other subjects, it becomes quite clear that the difference between Christians now and a thousand or two years ago is so apparent that you couldn't possibly miss it unless you were purposely trying to. When once asked confrontationally about the poor treatment of Jews in Russia, Fr. Seraphim Rose replied "I don't have to defend something that is obviously not Christian."  I suppose it would be nice if every Christian adopted that attitude... but then that might interfere with some beliefs about the Scripture, Fathers, etc. Wink
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« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2006, 10:24:57 PM »

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The major difference between Islam and Christianity today is that Islam does the same things done in Biblical times, while Christians have evolved (as a sub-culture) to a point where they cannot countenance such barbaric acts.

The difference is far greater than that.  Evil things happened within societies composed of Christians in spite of the presence of Christianity.  Whereas Islam glorifies the sensual and immoral as the reward of believers.  

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f you read histories of sexuality, slavery, divorce, war, the believed psychological/spiritual mindset of heretics, and other subjects, it becomes quite clear that the difference between Christians now and a thousand or two years ago is so apparent that you couldn't possibly miss it unless you were purposely trying to.


You are looking past the inherint anti-political nature of Christianity (and I mean anti- politics in the Vaclav Havel/ Charter 77 sense).  Nowhere in the New Testament is there a concept of Christ coming to create a social enterprise or political system.  Instead one finds a message to individuals to repent, changing their own lives - while still living under an existing political system.  Of course things changed the powers that be in the world became Christian - at least nominally so.  After all pletny of Fool for Christs found an earthly end by being critical of various Tsars - so I don't think the real anti-political nature of Christianity ultimately changed.  As for the sexual issue with the Slavs that you seem to be so fond of - even the desert fathers struggled with a host of passions (including fornication and homosexuality!), the thing is they struggled, repented, fought and fought to the death.  So why would all members of a society have a high Christian morality when most were probably Christians simply because of when and where they were born?

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When once asked confrontationally about the poor treatment of Jews in Russia, Fr. Seraphim Rose replied "I don't have to defend something that is obviously not Christian."  I suppose it would be nice if every Christian adopted that attitude... but then that might interfere with some beliefs about the Scripture, Fathers, etc.

Only someone that has put ethnicity and nationalism over Christianity could adopt a position contrary to Fr. Seraphim's.  As for the rest I answer with this from Khomiakov:

The grace of faith is not to be separated from holiness of life, nor can any single community or any single pastor be acknowledged to be the custodian of the whole faith of the Church, any more than any single community or any single pastor can be looked upon as the representative of the whole of her sanctity.
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« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2006, 10:37:57 PM »

Another general observation I'd add to my preceding post is that it is important to make the distinction between Christianity and Christendom - while the two overlap here and there, they are ultimately two very different things.  In his Attack on Christendom. Kierkegaard does make this distinction and I think it is quite relevant to this discussion.  
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« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2009, 11:01:41 AM »

Just an update: despite the speculation of Ms. Sultan emminent demise, she is very much still alive. She had this to say comparing her video to Obama's Cairo Speech:
http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/06/who-should-we-believe.php

No, I don't credit peace loving Islam for her continued survival.

^No, there isn't much difference between Christianity now and a thousand years ago.  Constantinople, for instance, had a Mosque in it LOOONG before the conquest, for the use of Muslims who happened to be in the city.  Such examples of supposed "modern" thinking can be multipled many fold, e.g. St. Vladimir's abolition of the death penalty.

And yes, Kierkegaard is right on: read his "Exercises in Christianity."
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