minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
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« on: March 05, 2006, 01:07:25 PM » |
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Dearest (especially Stavro),
Which books/articles by Fr. Matta are the ones that are attacked/controversial?
Also, what are the charges brought up against Fr. Matta?
What books/articles have been written against Fr. Matta?
Is there a way where I can get any of those books?
God bless.
Mina
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« Last Edit: March 05, 2006, 01:07:58 PM by minasoliman »
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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Timos
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2006, 09:56:16 AM » |
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His books can't be that bad. I remember the youth retreat @ Holy Cross (Cross Roads) gave us printed material and some of it was Fr. Matthew's guide to interpreting the scriptures. It was actually interesting.
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Addai
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 11:38:08 AM » |
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Dearest (especially Stavro),
Which books/articles by Fr. Matta are the ones that are attacked/controversial?
Also, what are the charges brought up against Fr. Matta?
What books/articles have been written against Fr. Matta?
Is there a way where I can get any of those books?
God bless.
Mina
It was mostly the book on prayer, "The ORthodox Prayer Life" that got recent attention ;because of him quoting mostly non Coptic saints.  Some of which are a little controversial, like St. Isaac of The Syrian.  And critisized because he's looked up as a Coptic example of spirituality but he teaching lots of stuff outside the Coptic Church (based heavily in EO and Catholicism as far as the saints quoted and discussed). Although I think there are Egyptain/Arabic books that were also controversial. He mostly is in "the dog house".  Because of publically critisizing Pope Shenouda back in the days, when he was arrested back when Anwar Sadat first came to power.  Pope Shenouda was critisized by him, during his few years in prison; because of some of the massive reforms he was brining to the Church.  Fr. Matta believed he was relying more on programs than on prayer and other traditional methods. There was/is a good "Chrisitanity Today" article that came out on the subject of Both Pope Shenouda and Fr. Matta.  It came out around 2000.  I had trouble finding it, but if your scour the internet and take your time I bet you can find it.  It talks about the different kinds of Renewal both people were working to bring the Coptic Church. |
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2006, 11:39:25 AM by Addai »
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minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
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Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2006, 12:38:01 PM » |
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Dear Addai, I know which article you are talking about: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/015/2.38.htmlGod bless. Mina PS I'm reading Orthodox Prayer Life now, and I find nothing wrong with it, and there is actually a hint in it that Fr. Matta believes we can't partake or see the essence of God. |
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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Stavro
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2006, 10:22:37 PM » |
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Which books/articles by Fr. Matta are the ones that are attacked/controversial?
Also, what are the charges brought up against Fr. Matta? You can start with the list I gave you in the topic "Why do we sin" in the "Free-for-all" forum until I come up with a translation of a list of Matta's errors in all his books. They are numerous, so please be patient. As for charges of misconduct and attacks against the Church, one has to consider his whole "career" as a monk to come up with a conclusive answer. You would have to examine the position of St. Macarius monastery in the Coptic Church after Chalcedon and the burning of the Alexandria library and school of Theology upon the arabic conquest,and how this great monastery has been transformed under the spiritual guidance of Matta El-Maskeen. You can visit the monastery and come up with your own assessment after you see the huge industrial advancements at this monastery and get an idea of the monks' routine, and compare it to other monasteries. Matta's life becomes very interestings if you consider his relation to President Saddat before and after 1981, his defeat at Papal elections twice, him being offered the Papal position by Saddat after the lawful Pope, H.H. Shenouda III was imprisoned in his own monastery, and how the synod refused such consecration and only to see them persecuted by Saddat, who wanted to go with the plan to split the Church anyways but got stopped because Khaled El-islambuli and Atta Tael assassinated the man, splitting him in two from the waist. If you consider the book " Church and Social service", in which he accused the Church of conspiracy and treason and caused the imprisonment of a popular Bishop, Samuel the Martyr, in Nasser's regime, together with the above, you will understand why Copts in Egypt have little respect for the man, and why his majority of vocal fans is in the diaspora. We usually come up with totally different views, so you are on your own in studying Matta's life so you can come up with your own conclusions. What books/articles have been written against Fr. Matta? Articles by H.H. in El-Kerazah magazine and seven books published against the heresies of Matthew the Poor. Will prepare a list of them later. Is there a way where I can get any of those books? I am not sure how far the translation of Matta's books into English have progressed. As for arabic books, you can always find them at the monastery of St. Macarius at Wadi El-Natron in Egypt and the last time I checked they were available in an independent bookstore called El- Ma7abah. It is one of the biggest christian bookstore in Egypt. |
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In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)
" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
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arbible
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 07:02:33 PM » |
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See also: Medina, Sara. "Egypt's Copts in Crisis." TIME Magazine Archive Article 28 Sep. 1981. 27 Jun. 2006. http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/archive/printout/0,23657,953135,00.html - Article containing segments attributed to Fr Matta in which he attacks the Coptic Orthodox Church and HH Pope Shenouda III. |
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« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 07:04:06 PM by arbible »
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arbible
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2006, 02:14:31 PM » |
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EkhristosAnesti
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2006, 02:56:46 PM » |
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Are you finished yet bro?
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No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.
"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
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arbible
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2006, 01:12:18 PM » |
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arbible
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2006, 03:18:49 PM » |
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« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 03:21:18 PM by arbible »
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Νεκτάριος
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2006, 06:29:04 PM » |
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Regardless of how correct (and of that I don't pressume to know anything about an internal matter for Coptic Church) you are, simply spamming several treads with links doesn't lend much credibility to your position. Why not stick around and actually join the discussion?
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Salpy
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Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2006, 07:49:54 PM » |
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Welcome to the board, Arbible! It is always nice to get a new member, especially one who is interested in matters concerning the Oriental Orthodox! While your links are very interesting, you may want to get involved in some of our discussions. I am sure you have much insight to give.
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« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 12:46:39 AM by Salpy »
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Severian
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2012, 11:54:27 PM » |
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--Bump--
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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ
Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.
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minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
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Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 12:08:49 AM » |
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the BUMP that you have  |
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Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)
If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 12:17:40 AM » |
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"But I say unto you, That every idle bump that men shall make, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matt. 12:36)
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Severian
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 12:30:41 AM » |
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Usually when I say "--Bump--" it is for good reasons and not for meaningless purposes. I guess I just wanted find out more perspectives on Fr. Matta's person, the current views of the Coptic hierarchy on him and his writings, his status within the Church before his repose, and online resources where I could read from him and about him. Also, is it true he taught we ate the Divine ousia in the Eucharist, or was he simply referring to the uncreated grace of God?
+May Fr. Matta's prayers be with us all
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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ
Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.
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Severian
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2012, 04:41:16 AM » |
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Usually when I say "--Bump--" it is for good reasons and not for meaningless purposes. I guess I just wanted find out more perspectives on Fr. Matta's person, the current views of the Coptic hierarchy on him and his writings, his status within the Church before his repose, and online resources where I could read from him and about him. Also, is it true he taught we ate the Divine ousia in the Eucharist, or was he simply referring to the uncreated grace of God?
+May Fr. Matta's prayers be with us all
Also, it is important to note that Stavro no longer holds the views he did regarding Fr. Matta. He no longer believes he is a heretic and he said that Fr. Matta's view of Theosis reflected that of Saint Athanasius. |
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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ
Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.
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WeldeMikael
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2012, 04:51:00 AM » |
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Here is a video where he is interviewed. Actually the video is in french, but there is some bits in english (though the french commentator translates over it, it is still possible to understand I think). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkgzApn9wew |
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« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 04:51:29 AM by WeldeMikael »
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Stavro
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« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 12:56:11 AM » |
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Usually when I say "--Bump--" it is for good reasons and not for meaningless purposes. I guess I just wanted find out more perspectives on Fr. Matta's person, the current views of the Coptic hierarchy on him and his writings, his status within the Church before his repose, and online resources where I could read from him and about him. Also, is it true he taught we ate the Divine ousia in the Eucharist, or was he simply referring to the uncreated grace of God?
+May Fr. Matta's prayers be with us all
Also, it is important to note that Stavro no longer holds the views he did regarding Fr. Matta. He no longer believes he is a heretic and he said that Fr. Matta's view of Theosis reflected that of Saint Athanasius. True. I spoke six years ago out of ignorance regarding Father Matta's theology and teachings, without reading the fullness of his spiritual production. |
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In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)
" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
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The least of all
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« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2012, 10:15:00 PM » |
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And this is why i have such respect for Stavros  |
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Severian
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« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 10:22:15 PM » |
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And this is why i have such respect for Stavros You mean his honesty and ability to admit when he's wrong? |
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« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 10:22:57 PM by Severian »
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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ
Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.
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The least of all
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« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 10:39:19 PM » |
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Ya exactly! I meant the comment seriously btw, i dont know if the smiley " " made it seem like i was being sarcastic... oops. But i legit meant it, it takes alot of courage to stand up and say one was wrong, something we could all benefit from. so i will conclude with this smiley this time  |
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Severian
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« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 10:52:20 PM » |
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Ya exactly! I meant the comment seriously btw, i dont know if the smiley " " made it seem like i was being sarcastic... oops. But i legit meant it, it takes alot of courage to stand up and say one was wrong, something we could all benefit from. so i will conclude with this smiley this time I know what you mean. If we had more people like him. |
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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ
Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.
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ReturnOrthodoxy
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2012, 05:12:27 PM » |
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Abouna Matta is a light in the darkness. An Orthodox Monk in the midst of pseudo-evangelical clergy.
He is one of the most profound writers in the Coptic church. In fact, he, along with HH Pope Kyrollos are my pride of being Coptic.
His theology is sound, his spirituality is free from political mumbo-jumbo, his guidance is deep, and his mind is understanding. Those who work in the darkness, as our Lord says, hate the light. So when a man comes around as a candle, they fight vigorously to try to extinguish.
He is in heaven right now, interceding for the stability of the Orthodox faithful, and the return of the pseudo-evangelical. Those who oppose the truth, calling it heresy, are heretics themselves.
ReturnOrthodoxy
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Pre-Passion: Let's eat, Jesus!
Post-Passion: Let's eat Jesus!
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The least of all
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2012, 07:52:12 PM » |
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I agree wholeheartedly. After years of hearing (pretty much all a bunch of made up mumbo jumbo) about Fr. Matta's "heretical opinions" and his "false teachings" and whatnot, i finally got a chance to read his works. And upon reading Fr. Matta's works, i was astonished at his theological profundity and would definitely class him the upper echelon of theologians and spiritual people the Coptic Orthodox has produced in this day and age. Fr. Matta's book, Orthodox prayer life, blew me away.
May he intercede for all of us before the throne of God
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ReturnOrthodoxy
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« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2012, 10:25:36 AM » |
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Amen, I'm sure he intercedes for his children. The Bishops who oppose him will be severely surprised |
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Pre-Passion: Let's eat, Jesus!
Post-Passion: Let's eat Jesus!
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Jonathan
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2012, 08:10:16 AM » |
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Amen, I'm sure he intercedes for his children. The Bishops who oppose him will be severely surprised There is a story circulating, whether it is true or not, that a certain old monk who is known to be an accurate profit saw the Virgin and Abouna Matta meeting H.H. Pope Shenouda III and taking H.H. to Paradise when H.H. departed. |
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Father Peter
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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2012, 12:15:35 PM » |
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We can be sure that both Matta el-Meskeen and His Holiness Pope Shenouda now see all things clearly and without any confusion whatsoever in a blessed place where there is no misunderstanding or misrepresentation.
May they both intercede for us.
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CoptoGeek
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2012, 04:01:20 PM » |
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Not long before Abouna Matta passed away, H.H. did visit him. I'd like to think they reconciled at that visit.
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« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 04:03:49 PM by CoptoGeek »
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"Be oppressed, rather than the oppressor. Be gentle, rather than zealous. Lay hold of goodness, rather than justice." -St. Isaac of Nineveh
“I returned to the Coptic Orthodox Church with affection, finding in her our tormented and broken history“. -Salama Moussa
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ReturnOrthodoxy
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2012, 07:32:35 PM » |
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FATHER PETER!!!!
Indeed, they both intercede.
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Pre-Passion: Let's eat, Jesus!
Post-Passion: Let's eat Jesus!
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Stavro
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« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2012, 11:28:09 PM » |
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Amen, I'm sure he intercedes for his children. The Bishops who oppose him will be severely surprised There is a story circulating, whether it is true or not, that a certain old monk who is known to be an accurate profit saw the Virgin and Abouna Matta meeting H.H. Pope Shenouda III and taking H.H. to Paradise when H.H. departed. Would this certain old monk be Father Angelos El-Antony? |
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In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)
" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
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Severian
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« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2012, 11:34:20 PM » |
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Amen, I'm sure he intercedes for his children. The Bishops who oppose him will be severely surprised There is a story circulating, whether it is true or not, that a certain old monk who is known to be an accurate profit saw the Virgin and Abouna Matta meeting H.H. Pope Shenouda III and taking H.H. to Paradise when H.H. departed. Would this certain old monk be Father Angelos El-Antony? |
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"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -Jesus Christ
Lord, protect Egypt, Syria, Lebanon & Iraq.
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CopticDeacon
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St. Macarius, the Spirit Bearer, Pray for Us!
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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2014, 01:16:58 PM » |
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Amen, I'm sure he intercedes for his children. The Bishops who oppose him will be severely surprised There is a story circulating, whether it is true or not, that a certain old monk who is known to be an accurate profit saw the Virgin and Abouna Matta meeting H.H. Pope Shenouda III and taking H.H. to Paradise when H.H. departed. Would this certain old monk be Father Angelos El-Antony? "Arise, take up thy thread, and talk" ^That one's an original  Can someone answer that last question? |
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"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
-St. Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr
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