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Author Topic: Canadian Sikhs allowed to wear small daggers in public schools  (Read 7710 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2006, 12:59:29 AM »

Quote
In the US rastafaris are NOT allowed to smoke weed for religious reasons
early mormons were NOT allowed to have two wives
and I think some native american tribe got pretty p-o'd when they weren't allowed to smoke peyote

But Native Americans *are* allowed to take peyote (it is eaten, not smoked), as they did for thousands of years before Europeans came. And Lukumis (practitioners of Santería) are allowed to sacrifice animals to their gods. If Rastafarians put up a big fight to be allowed to smoke ganja, it's not at all clear that they would not be allowed to do so.

Quote
there are limits on religious freedom
what if some fringe group decided child sacrifice is now necessary?

Are you seriously suggesting there's any reasonable comparison between practices that harm nobody, such as wearing a kirpan or eating peyote, and child sacrifice? If you are, I question your sanity.

Quote
But if you don't have kids in the local school, it's not your business, for the most part

Hey, you don't want me to have a say in local schools, stop funding them with my tax dollars.

Quote
Some of them are rather beautiful, but still looked a bit pointy to me.

How about this? No cutting edge. There's still a point, but there are dozens if not hundreds of objects students use every day that are just as pointy. Protractors, nail files, pens, chopsticks, scissors, etc. I used a fountain pen in high school that could have caused just as much damage as one of these. Do you propose to ban all pointy metal objects, or is a kirpan somehow special because it's used ceremonially and has a pretty handle and sheath?
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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2006, 01:04:11 AM »

They should follw the example of France and ban ALL religious symbols.

Any occasion you cite the example of France to buttress your argument.....

You, in the greatest of French traditions, have surrendered to your opponent.
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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2006, 01:09:19 AM »

How about this? No cutting edge. There's still a point, but there are dozens if not hundreds of objects students use every day that are just as pointy. Protractors, nail files, pens, chopsticks, scissors, etc. I used a fountain pen in high school that could have caused just as much damage as one of these. Do you propose to ban all pointy metal objects, or is a kirpan somehow special because it's used ceremonially and has a pretty handle and sheath?

I actually didn't propose anything. I asked a question. Smiley
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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2006, 01:13:52 AM »

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I actually didn't propose anything. I asked a question.

Fine. All kirpans have a point. It's not a particularly sharp point, and one could do a lot more damage with an ordinary pair of scissors than with a kirpan. If parents are worried about a dull-bladed dagger-shaped religious implement carried in a sheath that's sewn shut beneath the clothing, yet ignore the dreadful peril of scissors-carrying students that fill our schools, then I submit that the problem is not with the kirpan.
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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2006, 01:16:45 AM »

Fine. All kirpans have a point. It's not a particulary sharp point, and one could do a lot more damage with an ordinary pair of scissors than with a kirpan. If parents are worried about a dull-bladed dagger-shaped religious implement carried in a sheath that's sewn shut beneath the clothing, yet ignore the dreadful peril of scissors-carrying students that fill our schools, then I submit that the problem is not with the kirpan.

Thank you for your reply - and yes, I can see your point. (no pun intended) Roll Eyes
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2006, 01:18:33 AM »

Perhaps a solution to this problem is to have everyone carry a dagger...An armed society is a polite society.
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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2006, 01:22:01 AM »

Perhaps a solution to this problem is to have everyone carry a dagger...An armed society is a polite society.

LOL

Although, some of those huge "bling" crosses look pretty lethal. Smiley
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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2006, 01:33:26 AM »

the "child sacrifice" was the extreme end result that likely would never happen, but precedents in the legal system DO lead to pretty strange places VERY far afield of the original exception,

THAT was my point.

Don't get into the MY tax dollars argument. If you never own a car, are we not to use YOUR tax dollars to build bridges and roads? If you never get cancer are we not use use YOUR tax dollars to fund cancer research? etc. etc.
Also SOMEONE'S tax dollars went to education YOU. But as for whether kids should bring weapons to school, ceremonial or otherwise, the PARENTS should decide that NOT you. BTW my kids are out of school now so I SHOULD
NOT make that decision either, at this point. If my kids move back to where I live and I have grandkids in the district I will have some secondary say in the matter.

YOUR tax dollars and MINE should go to educating the next generation. Just give parents CHOICE with vouchers. Then all the Sikh kids can carry their daggers to Sikh school. And all the Santeria kids can bring animals to school to sacrifice. And especially inner city parents will be empowered to send their kids to a school of their CHOICE.
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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2006, 01:37:44 AM »

Quote
the "child sacrifice" was the extreme end result that likely would never happen, but precedents in the legal system DO lead to pretty strange places VERY far afield of the original exception,

I'm sorry, but there is a qualitative difference between wearing a kirpan and child sacrifice. One does not logically lead to the other.

Quote
If you never own a car, are we not to use YOUR tax dollars to build bridges and roads? If you never get cancer are we not use use YOUR tax dollars to fund cancer research? etc. etc.

I don't think so, but the fact that my tax dollars go into such gives me a say, however small, in how such things are run.

Quote
Just give parents CHOICE with vouchers.

Nope. Vouchers are not the answer. However bad it is to take my money and give it to an institution in which I have minimal say, it is worse to take my money and give it to an institution in which I have no say. The solution is to abolish publically-supported schooling altogether.

Quote
And all the Santeria kids can bring animals to school to sacrifice.

The hell? Why in the world would a Lukumi sacrifice an animal at school?
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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2006, 01:45:43 AM »

But as for whether kids should bring weapons to school, ceremonial or otherwise, the PARENTS should decide that NOT you. BTW my kids are out of school now so I SHOULD
NOT make that decision either, at this point. If my kids move back to where I live and I have grandkids in the district I will have some secondary say in the matter.

NO, it is religious expression, the parents DO NOT get to make the choice. The primary purpose of our constitution is to protect the minority from the majority. The Constitution gurantees BOTH the freedom of religion AND the right to keep and bear arms, for us this should be (as it was) an open and shut case...there is not 'school safety' clause in the constitution, so, quite frankly, it's not even an issue.
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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2006, 01:46:07 AM »

Concerning the airplane argument...had everyone been armed on 9/11 do you really think those planes would have flown into the world trade center? I stand behind my belief that the solution to these problems is to uphold the right to keep and bear arms...freedom or death.
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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2006, 01:49:15 AM »

Quote
.

!
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« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2006, 01:50:35 AM »

!

Accidently hit the post button prematurely.
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« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2006, 01:59:19 AM »

sorry but the keep and bear arms is an anachronism when there were state militias and the citizenry was sort of equally armed with the federal govt.

Now days...
You CANNOT own a bazooka, anti-tank gun, grenade launcher, mortar, let alone an attack helicoptor or cruise missile. You can own all the guns at the gun show and if the govt. wants to take you out, they can and they will (if is is politically expedient, of course). Your shotgun or .357 magnum or 9mm ain't gonna protect you from the federal government and keep freedon alive.

ALL guns should be outlawed except for long rifles for hunters who should have to go through rigourous psychological testing and background checks to own them.

There are too many freakin' guns. Get rid of them.

Just last night at the arena by which I work a kid was shot after a high school basketball game. I don't need to be walking to my car and be shot by some 15 year old who thinks its a freakin' video game and he can shoot me and then press the re-set button and start all over again
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« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2006, 02:04:08 AM »

I was not really saying there is a comparison between a dagger and child sacrifice. Do you not understand the idea of stating the outrageous to make a point? Were you once a fundamentalist protestant where you must take everything literally?

Again, the animals at school was rhetoric.

Geez!
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« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2006, 02:07:59 AM »

For those of us who aren't American/Canadian, would someone explain what vouchers are?

Thanks Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2006, 02:12:44 AM »

it is an argument in american politics that parents should be given tax vouchers to be redeemed for tuition at whatever school the parent sends their child to. Rather than the monolpoly of government owned and opereated schools that have been co-opted by the academic elite and teacher's unions.

the only other alternative is to BOTH pay taxes to support the government run schools AND pay tuition to send you kid to a private school - which is what we have currently; vouchers at this point are still a dream
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2006, 02:14:28 AM »

hmmm
someone in favor of vouchers for education (must be a Republican)

someone for gun control (must be a Democrat)

hmmmmmmmm
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2006, 02:15:46 AM »

Concerning the airplane argument...had everyone been armed on 9/11 do you really think those planes would have flown into the world trade center?
Not if we assume that every US citizen is sane, but the Oklahoma bomber, the Unibomber, the assasins of JFK & John Lennon and most murderers in the US are US citizens. So if history is anything to go on, I don't think I'd like to board a plane full of US citizens who are armed.
You seem to have a great deal of faith in humanity GiC. Unfortunately, I do not share it. Wink
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2006, 02:18:03 AM »

sorry but the keep and bear arms is an anachronism when there were state militias and the citizenry was sort of equally armed with the federal govt.

It goes hand in hand with the philosophy, 'The tree of liberty must be refreshened from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.' If the people do not have the means to rebel against the government, they are not truly free.

Quote
You CANNOT own a bazooka, anti-tank gun, grenade launcher, mortar, let alone an attack helicoptor or cruise missile.

These are unconstitutional violations of our most sacred of rights. Violations that the supreme court has not directly upheald, but has rather decided not to rule on...for they know that the constitution says and are afraid of it.

Quote
You can own all the guns at the gun show and if the govt. wants to take you out, they can and they will (if is is politically expedient, of course). Your shotgun or .357 magnum or 9mm ain't gonna protect you from the federal government and keep freedon alive.

You miss much of the point, 'freedom or death' means death more often than it means freedom, if they're going to kill me, fine, but let me die with a gun in my hands and at least the chance to fire back...this is a death with honour, a death that all true men pray they will die.

Quote
ALL guns should be outlawed except for long rifles for hunters who should have to go through rigourous psychological testing and background checks to own them.

They can pry mine from my cold dead hands and I pray to God that he will grant me a steady arm and a sure eye to send a few of them to hell before they kill me.

Quote
There are too many freakin' guns. Get rid of them.

'They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.'

Quote
Just last night at the arena by which I work a kid was shot after a high school basketball game. I don't need to be walking to my car and be shot by some 15 year old who thinks its a freakin' video game and he can shoot me and then press the re-set button and start all over again

Going back to Chrysostom again: 'Wise men do not blame the knife for murder, nor wine for drunkenness, nor strength for insolence, nor courage for wrecklessness. No, they blame the men who make wrong use of the gifts of God and punish them.'
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2006, 02:18:59 AM »

Not if we assume that every US citizen is sane, but the Oklahoma bomber, the Unibomber, the assasins of JFK & John Lennon and most murderers in the US are US citizens. So if history is anything to go on, I don't think I'd like to board a plane full of US citizens who are armed.
You seem to have a great deal of faith in humanity GiC. Unfortunately, I do not share it. Wink

My argument does not require that every US citizen is sane, just that a majority are.
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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2006, 02:21:05 AM »

I can't even read the rest of your reply without replying!
Don't give me Thomas Jefferson's claptrap about refershing the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots

that's easy to say, s long as it isn't your blood or mine

Balderdash
boo on you
get real!
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2006, 02:22:25 AM »

I can't even read the rest of your reply without replying!
Don't give me Thomas Jefferson's claptrap about refershing the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots

that's easy to say, s long as it isn't your blood or mine

Balderdash
boo on you
get real!

You are free to comment on your own honour, or lack thereof...but do not make assumptions about mine.
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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2006, 02:28:57 AM »

Thank God that George Washington, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and other federalists won the day in America and not the Jeffersonians, and other radicals who supported the French mob.
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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2006, 02:35:41 AM »

Thank God that George Washington, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton and other federalists won the day in America and not the Jeffersonians, and other radicals who supported the French mob.

We anti-federalists were not entirely without our victories...the Bill of Rights, which has become the basis for American freedom and liberty, is the result of a compromise with the anti-federalists. Imagine the freedoms we could have ensured if we had our way; yes there would have been more war and conflict, but this is a very very small price to pay for freedom.

The freedom of speech
The freedom of the press
The freedom of religion
The right to keep and bear arms
The right to be secure in your person and property
The right to trial by jury
et cetera
et cetera

You can thank the anti-federalists for all these.
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2006, 02:39:31 AM »

it is an argument in american politics that parents should be given tax vouchers to be redeemed for tuition at whatever school the parent sends their child to. Rather than the monolpoly of government owned and opereated schools that have been co-opted by the academic elite and teacher's unions.

the only other alternative is to BOTH pay taxes to support the government run schools AND pay tuition to send you kid to a private school - which is what we have currently; vouchers at this point are still a dream

Thanks BrotherAidan
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2006, 02:41:33 AM »

Does anyone have statistics on how many people in Canada or the US have been attacked with a kirpan?  My guess is that the number would be close to zero...
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2006, 02:45:16 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8343.msg110082#msg110082 date=1141454493]
Does anyone have statistics on how many people in Canada or the US have been attacked with a kirpan?  My guess is that the number would be close to zero... [/quote]

I didn't even know what a kirpan was until today. Isn't the internet wonderful?
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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2006, 02:49:05 AM »

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Were you once a fundamentalist protestant where you must take everything literally?

Even worse, I'm a lawyer-in-training.
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2006, 03:01:11 AM »

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I didn't even know what a kirpan was until today. Isn't the internet wonderful?

My area haw a fairly large amount of immigrants from Asia, mostly Chinese and Indians (including Sikhs).  So I am use to being around them from my high school.  Never once did I feel threatened by the presence of tirpan.  IME, Sikhs tend to be some of the most non-violent people I've come across.  
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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2006, 03:02:04 AM »

My argument does not require that every US citizen is sane, just that a majority are.
No, your argument requires that those who are insane do not have more lethal weapons than those who are sane.
Unfortunately, Timothy McVeigh did.
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« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2006, 03:20:02 AM »

I am surprised about this as an issue.  It has long been a ruling  from the Sikh spiritual leaders that the carrying of a picture of the small dagger meets the requirements of their faith.

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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2006, 03:26:11 AM »

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Unfortunately, Timothy McVeigh did.

Timothy McVeigh *was* sane. I highly disagree with his methods, and his racist connexions, but the basic thrust of his attack -- a highly targeted strike, not upon civilians, as with the 9/11 hijackers, but upon people, government officials, intimately involved in the operations of what he saw as an illegitimate and oppressive state -- is little different than thousands of similar operations conducted by the US government itself.
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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2006, 03:28:57 AM »

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It has long been a ruling  from the Sikh spiritual leaders that the carrying of a picture of the small dagger meets the requirements of their faith.

*Some* leaders might have said that, but Sikhism has no clergy or centralized, universal, binding leadership. The majority of Sikhs reject this interpretation.
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« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2006, 06:14:49 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8343.msg110086#msg110086 date=1141455671]
My area haw a fairly large amount of immigrants from Asia, mostly Chinese and Indians (including Sikhs).  So I am use to being around them from my high school.  Never once did I feel threatened by the presence of tirpan.  IME, Sikhs tend to be some of the most non-violent people I've come across. [/quote]

From my experience with Sikhs, I would agree. A family member was married to a young Sikh man. Sadly, it didn't work out, but I found his whole family to be delightful. The father in particular is such a devout and gentle man. I just didn't knew about tirpans - never even saw one. The family's English wasn't all that extensive, so I suppose it's understandable that the subject didn't come up.  It would have been so interesting to have known a bit more about their beliefs, too.  Smiley

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« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2006, 06:58:20 AM »

Timothy McVeigh *was* sane.
That's a matter of opinion.
he basic thrust of his attack -- a highly targeted strike, not upon civilians, as with the 9/11 hijackers, but upon people, government officials, intimately involved in the operations of what he saw as an illegitimate and oppressive state -- is little different than thousands of similar operations conducted by the US government itself.
I never realised that the US government employed people as young as this "colateral damage" from Timothy McVeigh's attack.
I fail to see a difference... or the sanity.
EDIT: I removed this image at the request of TomS and replaced it with a link to it. The image is the well known, distressing photo of the fireman carrying a dead child out of the debris of the Oklahoma City Bombing in 1995.
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« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2006, 10:06:06 AM »

I never realised that the US government employed people as young as this "colateral damage" from Timothy McVeigh's attack.
I fail to see a difference... or the sanity.

First off, Timothy McVeigh didn't even have to use a weapon proper (i.e. a substance manufactured for the sole purpose of being a weapon), he used fertilizer...combustable materials are an essential part of our life, you cannot viably outlaw the materials needed to make a bomb...had he went into the building with a machine gun or RPG, he would have done far less damage, but instead he decided to use an agricultural product.

Secondly, while I disagree with some of the ideology of McVeigh and believe he went a little too far within our current social context (I can't recall who said that it's too late to work within the system, but too early to start shooting the bastards yet...but if I recall there's a good book out on the subject); however, he had justifiable reasons for being upset at the government (the bombing was done in retaliation for Waco) and a legitimate government target was hit, as the target is would be acceptable within by rules of war. The fact that there were children at a strategic target is the fault of the government, not McVeigh, so has the government learned and removed the presence of all children from other such strategic targets? Of course not, the propaganda value of them being hit in a attack is too high, the children don't mean anything to the state, but their deaths are priceless because of the emotionalism with which the media and Americans approach the issue.
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« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2006, 10:13:56 AM »

I thought I'd throw this quote in response to all the arguments in favour of safety, which are by their very nature cowardly, dishonourable, and unchristian (fear for one's temporal well being is a mockery of our faith in the final resurrection and contrary the most fundamental tenets of the Christian Religion).

'The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.' -- Tacitus
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« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2006, 10:42:14 AM »

"even worse, I'm a lawyer in training"

LOL - literally!

reminds me of the lyrucs to a Robert Cray song:
You can give me an hour alone in a bank
Pay all my tickets, wipe the slate blank
You could buy me a car, fill up the tank
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ Tell me that a boat full of lawyers just sank  Smiley
But it ain't nothin' but a woman
Nothin' but a woman....

(hope you will take that in the fun it was intended!) Shocked
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« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2006, 10:56:46 AM »

"in favor of safety"

depends if one seeking his own safety or that of others

I don't think it is unchristian, given the recent mining accidents, to seek more safety for the workers in that industry, for example

or is it somehow christian to allow the unbridled greed  of the mine operators to prevail, because the workers should be seeking heaven, not safety in the workplace
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« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2006, 11:30:41 AM »

I fail to see a difference... or the sanity.

Please take that image down of the fireman carrrying the dead child. It is obscene.
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« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2006, 11:31:15 AM »

"in favor of safety"

depends if one seeking his own safety or that of others

I don't think it is unchristian, given the recent mining accidents, to seek more safety for the workers in that industry, for example

or is it somehow christian to allow the unbridled greed  of the mine operators to prevail, because the workers should be seeking heaven, not safety in the workplace

Well here's a non sequitur if I've ever seen one, arguing for societal security based on occupational safety. I dont even know where to start with Fallacious Argument...how do you dismiss the argument 'Johnny eats corn, pigs eat corn, therefore johnny is a pig.' I have nothing against a corporation instituting a policy of occupational safety, more often than not it makes good economic sense to do so. I really dont think that the government needs to get involved, the wrongful death suits will probably be enough of an encouragement for the corporations to take a more active approach on the issue of safety. Ultimately what I'm saying and that Thomas Jefferson and Tacitus were saying is that a society that makes security its goal will inevitably turn into a dictatorship and will, as a society, die. Freedom is very dangerous to a society and a people, but while security offers no long term benifits the long term benifits of Freedom are great. Then there is the fact that while some may be happy to live their lives as slaves and I have no objection to making such people slaves, giving them food, clothing, shelter, and security, but little more, I for one am not willing to live such a life and view death as a very small price to pay to avoid such a life. Perhaps a love for freedom and a hatred of anything that stands against it is in my blood, perhaps it's simply my cultural experience, but it is an ideal that I hold sacred; accordingly, I dispise, as unworthy of life, all who would stand in opposistion to it.

I know I have overused quotes already in this discussion, but I really can't help myself, so many before me have become embroiled in such struggles for freedom and liberty, and have spoken with far more eloquence on the subject than I could ever hope to, so I quote one of my favouriate founding fathers, Patrick Henry:

'Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!'
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« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2006, 11:32:42 AM »

Please take that image down of the fireman carrrying the dead child. It is obscene.

It's propaganda, but not obscene...death is a natural part of life, get used to it.
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« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2006, 11:41:12 AM »

It's propaganda, but not obscene...death is a natural part of life, get used to it.

But the murder of an innocent child is not. Either way, there are appropriate places for an image like this to be posted - it is not here.
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« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2006, 11:44:16 AM »

Please take that image down of the fireman carrrying the dead child. It is obscene.
I don't think it is obsene, nor propaganda as GiC suggests, however I will take it down because you asked me to Tom.
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