OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 28, 2014, 10:42:12 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Celtic and Roman Christianity  (Read 4750 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« on: February 28, 2006, 05:32:54 PM »

Do you know if there are surviving prayers from the English/Celtic Churches? The Normans were ruthless in destroying the English Orthodox, and subsequently the Celtic Orthodox Churches, so I suppose it's unlikely that any pre-Norman prayers and liturgies still exist.

Have you read "The Fall of Orthodox England", by Vladimir Moss? Found here, if you haven't and are intererested...
http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20MYSTERY%20OF%20CHRISTIAN%20POWER.htm



 

 

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 07:40:56 PM »

Riddikulus,
Actually I think some hope still exists. Recently, in UK Orthodox Jurisdictions there happened some return to these roots. And British libraries are superior in terms of keeping unique information. I wish I would be able to tell you more about the extent of possibility that something has been restored, but in my opinion of a former short-term resident of UK with an access to those libraries, it seems possible. I will inform, if I will hear some updates.
Logged
Landon77
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Antiochian Western Orthodox in exile)
Posts: 308


« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 07:44:46 PM »

Do you know if there are surviving prayers from the English/Celtic Churches?
 Yes.  For instance, the hymn that was made out of a prayer by St. Patrick.  http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/i/i024.html
I haven't read that book.  For the most part, there isn't a real concern for trying to go back in time.  When the liturgy was corrected by the Moscow Synod, they approved it and corrected it, but they gave no instructions for trying to recover ancient liturgies.
 


Logged

"How stands your mighty god? My God is stronger than he."  -St. Boniface
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 09:12:44 PM »

Do you know if there are surviving prayers from the English/Celtic Churches? The Normans were ruthless in destroying the English Orthodox, and subsequently the Celtic Orthodox Churches, so I suppose it's unlikely that any pre-Norman prayers and liturgies still exist.

I'm sorry, Riddikulus, but may I ask what your sources are for "English Orthodox" and that they were destroyed by the Normans?

There are documents that have lasted, such as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Old English/Anglo Saxon prayers, homilies and large parts of the Bible.   But it is time and wear and in some cases fire (such as that which damaged part of the Cotton Manuscript collection) that has led to the loss of Anglo-Saxon documents.  But there is a good bit that survives.  Also, there is not just one language "Anglo Saxon" or Old English, but different dialects such as West Saxon. Here for example is the Lords Prayer in Anglo-Saxon:

"Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod to becume þin rice gewurþe ðin willa on eorðan swa swa on heofonum. urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele soþlice.
(Corpus Christi College MS 140, ed. Liuzza (1994)) "

It and another version can be found here: www.georgetown.edu/cball/oe/pater_noster.html

Then there is the "Dream of the Rood" an Anglo-Saxon poem about the Passion of Christ, poetic versions of the Creed (Anglo-Saxon culture held poetry to be a high art form)  Here is an article about the translation history of the Bible in to Anglo-Saxon: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/1001Williams.htm

For something really cool if you go here: http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/ttp/ttpbooks.html and click on "Pinnacle of Anglo Saxon Art" you can "turn the pages of 40 sheets of the "Lindesfarne Gospel" a Latin with Anglo-Saxon word for word "gloss" between the lines.  It has an audio track and a magnifying glass(!) so you can look at the ornamentation and words very closely.

There are threads on the forum that look at some ummm difficulties with Mr. Moss and his "Orthodox England"/Anglo-Saxon theory.

I am not fluent in reading Anglo-Saxon, like a college roommate was, but I can work my way in it, and one of my fields of interest in Anglo-Saxon and Norse history and literature.

with respect,

Ebor  


Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 09:21:56 PM »

 Yes.  For instance, the hymn that was made out of a prayer by St. Patrick.  http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/i/i024.html

The "Lorica" or "St. Patrick's Breastplate".  Also, surviving is St. Patrick's "Confessio" may be found on-line at CCEL
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/patrick/confession.ii.html  and "Epistola S. Patricii ad Christianos Corotici Tyranni subditos" or the Letters of St. Patrick to the soldiers of Coroticus

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 09:36:59 PM »

Riddikulus,
Actually I think some hope still exists. Recently, in UK Orthodox Jurisdictions there happened some return to these roots. And British libraries are superior in terms of keeping unique information. I wish I would be able to tell you more about the extent of possibility that something has been restored, but in my opinion of a former short-term resident of UK with an access to those libraries, it seems possible. I will inform, if I will hear some updates.


Wonderful! Thanks very much.  Grin
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 10:05:45 PM »

One further note:  I mentioned the "Cotton Library"   Here is the wiki article about it with a short list of a few of the manuscripts that he'd collected:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_manuscript

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2006, 10:57:35 PM »

I'm sorry, Riddikulus, but may I ask what your sources are for "English Orthodox" and that they were destroyed by the Normans?

There are documents that have lasted, such as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Old English/Anglo Saxon prayers, homilies and large parts of the Bible. ÂÂ  But it is time and wear and in some cases fire (such as that which damaged part of the Cotton Manuscript collection) that has led to the loss of Anglo-Saxon documents. ÂÂ But there is a good bit that survives. ÂÂ Also, there is not just one language "Anglo Saxon" or Old English, but different dialects such as West Saxon.

Sure, there are many surviving texts; Bede, Nennius, William of Walmesbury from the 12th Century, whose father was Norman and mother was English (though, I believe he wrote in Latin?). Although, if I remember correctly, the Peterborough Chronicles continued to be written in Anglo-Saxon after Norman became the official language in England? As far as different dialects, there were different dialects in Britain right up to about a hundred years ago. People from one county to another didn't understand each other if they spoke in their "native" dialect.

But I was really more interested in liturgical texts of the English or Celtic Churches; the Celts being the true British, pushed out of England by the pagan Anglo-Saxons. Even after they became Christian, after St Augustine's mission to Kent, there were still differences between them and the Celtic Churches.  

I'm trying to recall what sources (apart from Vladimir Moss, seeing as you find him unreliable) I have read about the ramifications of the Normans' invasion of England, but the old noddle isn't working properly today. Angry I keep thinking it was something by Sir Steven Runciman...... (something to do with the filioque and the excommunication of the Archbishop of Canterbury regarding his refusal to use said phrase, and the Pope's eagerness to regain control in Britain.....the sometimes violent replacement of Anglo-Saxon Bishops, who didn't fall into step with their Norman overlords....)... but who knows?

I must have arrived at the age where I have forgotten more sources than I have remembered. Unless I have it in my own library, it could have been from the public library, or borrowed from a friend. I'll get back to you on that one, when/if the little gray cells are more functional.  Grin

Thanks for those sites! For the threads discussing....ummmm..... difficulties with Mr. Moss, where would I search? Smiley

In Christ.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2006, 02:32:49 AM »

Here's one from 2 years ago:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=2714.0

I'll find others tomorrow if you like, or just "Search" on "Moss" maybe.

There were still some Celtic people/churches in Britain.  Iona and Lindisfarne were both celtic monesteries and St. Hilda of Whitby who called the Synod of Whitby in 664 AD was also on the Celtic side.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2006, 03:33:00 AM »

Here's one from 2 years ago:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=2714.0

I'll find others tomorrow if you like, or just "Search" on "Moss" maybe.

There were still some Celtic people/churches in Britain.  Iona and Lindisfarne were both celtic monesteries and St. Hilda of Whitby who called the Synod of Whitby in 664 AD was also on the Celtic side.

Ebor

Yes, Iona is in Scotland and Lindisfarne in Northumberland which is a few miles south of the border of Scotland - Both are island monasteries. There were other monasteries/church communities along the length of Hadrian's Wall. Whitby is also in the far north of what is England today.  

Celtic life continued under the Romans, even with the introduction of Christianity. With the advent of Anglo-Saxon incursions, the Celtic population (no longer within the protection from Rome) gradually retreated more and more west or south-west; into Wales, Devon and Cornwall. When the Anglo-Saxons finally annexed Devon and Cornwall, all vestiges of Celtic life in England, including Celtic Christianity, were finally obliterated. In the main, most of what we consider England today was depleted of Romanised/Christian/pagan Britons and replaced with pagan Anglo-Saxons.

Christianity was restored to England when St Augustine was sent to Kent by Pope Gregory. Later clashes with the Celtic Church proved that they had, in fact, different expressions of Chrisitian worship, etc. These differences continued until the years following the Norman invasion.

In Christ.


 
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2006, 10:37:29 AM »

Ebor, I admire of this awesome research that you have done here. Thank you very much.
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2006, 01:38:55 PM »

Yes, Iona is in Scotland and Lindisfarne in Northumberland which is a few miles south of the border of Scotland - Both are island monasteries. There were other monasteries/church communities along the length of Hadrian's Wall. Whitby is also in the far north of what is England today. ÂÂ

Well, I'd give a minor quibble that Whitby isn't in the "far north".  It looks more like a bit over half way up the east coast of England that starts above Norfolk.
http://encarta.msn.com/map_701517614/Whitby_(England).html
 Smiley

Aside from that, it is recorded in Bede, that Hilda was baptised by Paulinus who came with Augustine from Rome so both the Celtic and Roman practices of Christianity and influences were present.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book4.html


Quote
Celtic life continued under the Romans, even with the introduction of Christianity. With the advent of Anglo-Saxon incursions, the Celtic population (no longer within the protection from Rome) gradually retreated more and more west or south-west; into Wales, Devon and Cornwall. When the Anglo-Saxons finally annexed Devon and Cornwall, all vestiges of Celtic life in England, including Celtic Christianity, were finally obliterated. In the main, most of what we consider England today was depleted of Romanised/Christian/pagan Britons and replaced with pagan Anglo-Saxons.

Would you please give some of the sources for this? I would be interested to read more on this idea.

Quote
Christianity was restored to England when St Augustine was sent to Kent by Pope Gregory.

Well, Christianity was not totally removed from England.  Ethelbert of Kent had a Christian wife, Bertha of the royal family of the Franks who brought a bishop with her.  But Augustine and his companions did spread it to many parts of the country. (Bede)

Quote

Later clashes with the Celtic Church proved that they had, in fact, different expressions of Chrisitian worship, etc. These differences continued until the years following the Norman invasion.

Such disagreements were why the Synod of Whitby was called, after all. Smiley  

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2006, 01:41:22 PM »

Ebor, I admire of this awesome research that you have done here. Thank you very much.

Thank you for your kind words.  I must confess that I sometimes wonder if it could be causing people's eyes to glaze over.  Wink  It is an interest of mine.

I'll try to not let myself rabbit on at too great a length.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2006, 04:37:13 PM »

Perhaps I'm being a bit too territorial, but this is the prayer forum. I think it should be kept a "safe place" for people where prayers are requested and offered.

I think so, too; topic split! ~ Pedro
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 05:11:55 PM by Pedro » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2006, 06:14:55 PM »

Sorry, George. Embarrassed My bad, as the saying goes.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2006, 07:41:46 PM »

Well, I'd give a minor quibble that Whitby isn't in the "far north".  It looks more like a bit over half way up the east coast of England that starts above Norfolk.
http://encarta.msn.com/map_701517614/Whitby_(England).html
 Smiley

Aside from that, it is recorded in Bede, that Hilda was baptised by Paulinus who came with Augustine from Rome so both the Celtic and Roman practices of Christianity and influences were present.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book4.html


Would you please give some of the sources for this? I would be interested to read more on this idea.

Well, Christianity was not totally removed from England.  Ethelbert of Kent had a Christian wife, Bertha of the royal family of the Franks who brought a bishop with her.  But Augustine and his companions did spread it to many parts of the country. (Bede)

Such disagreements were why the Synod of Whitby was called, after all. Smiley ÂÂ

Ebor

Darn, I was confusing the Whitby in Kent with the one in North Yorkshire. (doh!) Told you I was losing it! Of course, the Synod of Whitby was in Kent. grrrrrr! St Augustine didn't make any headway with unifying with the Celtic Bishops because of they were so antagonistic to the Anglo-Saxons, (understandably, I suppose) - amongst other reasons.

Yes, I know that Athelbert had a Christian wife and she had her own bishop, I believe that she had Christian ladies-in-waiting with her, too - but this was an anomoly in a pagan society. (There's an excellent children's book "Augustine Came to Kent", which I have read to my own children.)

I imagine you could read of the Celtic/Anglo-Saxon demographic changes in any good history book on the British Isles. Perhaps Simon Schama's "A History of Britain". I haven't read the book, myself, but it was made into a very good documentary series. This site looks interesting, though I haven't had the time to read it thoroughly. http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/fajardo/teaching/eng520/anglosax.htm

When the Romans left Britain around 407AD, power fell into the hands of several invaders. From Ireland came the Scots, who established colonies on what is now the west coast of Scotland. From the far north came the Picts. But the strongest and most successful groups came from northwest Europe, mainly Denmark and Northern Germany. These were the Angles, Saxons and Jutes - now known as the Anglo-Saxons. Their own lands had become overcrowded and they were seeking new places to live. Some conquered territory by force, but others arrived peacefully. Around 420AD Saxon settlers landed on the coast of East Anglia. Around 430AD, Vortigern hired German mercenaries to defend Britain against the Picts and the Scots. (Probably, not the best idea he ever had, because later the Germanic-Saxons turned against the British with the view of conquest.) The Anglo-Saxons continued to settle, increasingly by force, in the south and east of Britain, and by about 600AD they occupied most of what is today England (Angle-land).

The remaining Celtic Britons had struggled to keep their holdings and won several victories over the Anglo-Saxons. In one, at Mount Baden in southwest England in about 500AD, they were led by King Arthur. (I believe that Gregory of Monmouth records this battle in his History of England.) In 577 the Saxons were victorious at Dyrham, Gloucestershire, and finally Celtic Britons were forced to retreat into Wales, Cornwall and Cumbria. Some even emigrated to Gaul; to the part that is now called Brittany.
 
The Saxon settlements merged and grew into kingdoms ruled by the leading warriors. The most powerful of these kingdoms were Kent, East Anglia, Sussex (meaning "South Saxons"), Wessex ("West Saxons"), Mercia (people of the Marches") and Northumbria. They frequently fought each with other to gain more land. By 627AD, King Edwin of Northumbria was strong enough to be called Bretwalda ("Ruler of Britain"). But fifty years later the Northumbrians were defeated by the Mercians and in 757 the greatest of the early Bretwaldas came to the throne of Mercia. This was Offa, who was to become the first proper English King, treating other kingdoms as his provinces.

British History (particulary ancient) has been a passion of mine, especially as I was born in Sussex, and lived within a few minutes of the Roman Palace at Fishbourne and a short drive along the coast to Senlac Hill, the site of the Battle of Hastings.

I apologise that this discussion was continued in the Prayer forum.

In Christ
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2006, 08:46:54 PM »

Darn, I was confusing the Whitby in Kent with the one in North Yorkshire. (doh!) Told you I was losing it! Of course, the Synod of Whitby was in Kent. grrrrrr! St Augustine didn't make any headway with unifying with the Celtic Bishops because of they were so antagonistic to the Anglo-Saxons, (understandably, I suppose) - amongst other reasons.

Ummmm, I think that there is some confusion here.  I apologize for not writing more clearly.  Whitby *is* in Yorkshire, northeast of York on the coast, south of Newcastle-on-Tyne and north of Scarborough.  Norfolk is the part of England that goes farther east and has such places as Ely and Norwich.  The quibble was regarding "far north" as it looks to me roughly half way up the coast.  I'm sorry for not being more clear.

And the Synod of Whitby took place at the Monastery at Whitby (a double one) that Abbess Hilda had in her charge.  

Quote
I imagine you could read of the Celtic/Anglo-Saxon demographic changes in any good history book on the British Isles. Perhaps Simon Schama's "A History of Britain". I haven't read the book, myself, but it was made into a very good documentary series. This site looks interesting, though I haven't had the time to read it thoroughly. http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/english/fajardo/teaching/eng520/anglosax.htm

I'll have to check to see if I have that book on my shelves.  The description you gave was not one that I had come across in my studies, so I was wondering if you had some titles that I didn't know about.  I am familiar with the Romans leaving Britain and the Vortigern/Hengist/Horsa part of the histories.  

Quote
The remaining Celtic Britons had struggled to keep their holdings and won several victories over the Anglo-Saxons. In one, at Mount Baden in southwest England in about 500AD, they were led by King Arthur. (I believe that Gregory of Monmouth records this battle in his History of England.)

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I think you may mean Geoffrey of Monmouth (around 1100-1155).  With Arthur we're getting into legend and he isn't mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, just as a data point.  Thank you for giving the overview of Anglo-Saxon basics like the kingdoms.   Smiley  I know them, but it is good to have more information for others to read.
 
Quote
British History (particulary ancient) has been a passion of mine, especially as I was born in Sussex, and lived within a few minutes of the Roman Palace at Fishbourne and a short drive along the coast to Senlac Hill, the site of the Battle of Hastings.

Ah.   Smiley  And do you still live in Sussex?  Your mention of Arthur reminded me of a most enjoyable site that I found years ago that I'm sorry to find seems to be gone "From Watford Gap to Camelot" that followed a road down to the southwest (A361 or something like that) to Cadbury Castle, a hill fort.  I am in the US, but would like to visit the British Isles someday.

I hope that this isn't offensive, but my father was stationed in England during WWII and acquired a taste for British humour.  Such as "The Battle of Hastings" by Marriot Edgar.

http://www.monologues.co.uk/Battle_of_Hastings.htm


Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2006, 09:17:09 PM »

The liturgy largely used in the Celtic church was what was known as the Liturgy of St John the Divine.  This survives in the form of the Stowe Missal, and has been amended slightly to make it compatible for use in the Orthodox Western Rite today.  This was the work of Fr Michael, who is the superior at the ROCOR monastery of St Petroc in Tasmania.  Sadly, he never sought Archbishop Hilarion's blessing to use it, as the focus has tended to be more on the (slightly) post-schism Sarum Rites, which have a more direct link with what English churchmen are accustomed to.

I have a copy of this amended version of the Liturgy of St John the Divine but I'm sure Fr Michael would be happy to supply the original if you asked him.

If you want to know more about the Western Rite of Orthodoxy, which draws largely on those traditions which existed in the pre-Schism Orthodox West, then really the best place to ask is the Ely Forum.
Logged
Psalti Boy
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Don't need one
Posts: 842



« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2006, 12:29:02 AM »

Perhaps I'm being a bit too territorial, but this is the prayer forum. I think it should be kept a "safe place" for people where prayers are requested and offered.

I think so, too; topic split! ~ Pedro

Correct me if I am wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time, but when I came in the sign on the door said "Liturgy".
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2006, 12:45:31 AM »

Ummmm, I think that there is some confusion here.  I apologize for not writing more clearly.  Whitby *is* in Yorkshire, northeast of York on the coast, south of Newcastle-on-Tyne and north of Scarborough.  Norfolk is the part of England that goes farther east and has such places as Ely and Norwich.  The quibble was regarding "far north" as it looks to me roughly half way up the coast.  I'm sorry for not being more clear. And the Synod of Whitby took place at the Monastery at Whitby (a double one) that Abbess Hilda had in her charge.

Grrrrrrrrr  Angry Not your fault - these days I am easily confused. As I remember, Whitby isn't far from Hadrian's Wall - that's far north in terms of post-Roman Britain - the Antonine Wall was further north, across the Forth-Clyde valley, but that was abandoned some twenty years after construction, around 160ad. Wasn't the Whitby Abbey ruin the site of Dracula's arrival to England in Bram Stoker's novel? Completely irrelevant, I know! (Anyway, you are reminding me that I need to re-read some things or get on a plane for a visit back home!!)

Quote
I'll have to check to see if I have that book on my shelves.  The description you gave was not one that I had come across in my studies, so I was wondering if you had some titles that I didn't know about.  I am familiar with the Romans leaving Britain and the Vortigern/Hengist/Horsa part of the histories.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I think you may mean Geoffrey of Monmouth (around 1100-1155).  With Arthur we're getting into legend and he isn't mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, just as a data point.  Thank you for giving the overview of Anglo-Saxon basics like the kingdoms.   Smiley  I know them, but it is good to have more information for others to read.

Yes, of course I mean Geoffrey!! Grrrrrrrr, again. I've just been reading about St Gregory of Nyssa's beliefs on final restoration (apokatastasis) and have "Gregory" on the brain!! Very interesting book that I do have is "The Quest for Arthur's Britain" by Geoffrey (not Gregory) Ashe, who claims that solid facts concerning Arthur's reality have emerged through recent archaelogolical discoveries. Who knows? That epoch of British history is fairly Spartan for details. And, of course, if Arthur had existed, his story would have borne no resemblance whatsoever to the later French legends, and likely have been a Romanised Briton. Just a bit of fun, which I'm not taking terribly seriously.
 
Quote
Ah.   Smiley  And do you still live in Sussex?  Your mention of Arthur reminded me of a most enjoyable site that I found years ago that I'm sorry to find seems to be gone "From Watford Gap to Camelot" that followed a road down to the southwest (A361 or something like that) to Cadbury Castle, a hill fort.  I am in the US, but would like to visit the British Isles someday.

No, I'm not in England.  :'(  

Cadbury Castle is the largest hill-fort in Somerset, just south of Glastonbury, which is the famous place for the legends of King Arthur. It's claimed that the remains of Arthur and Gwenhwvyar have been found there in the grounds of the Abbey, destroyed courtesy of Henry VIII, who judicially murdered the last Abbot and grabbed the Abbey's treasures. Also there is a local legend that Joseph of Arimathea took the young Jesus on a visit there, and later Joseph, escaping the persecution in Jerusalem following the Ressurection, settled there with some Followers. That the young Jesus was in England is the legend behind the Glastonbury Hymn. Words by William Blake.... http://valinor.ca/glaston.html. Beautiful hymn!

Site on Cadbury Castle - http://www.time-scapes.co.uk/Arthur%20in%20the%20Southwest/cadburycastle.html

Quote
I hope that this isn't offensive, but my father was stationed in England during WWII and acquired a taste for British humour.  Such as "The Battle of Hastings" by Marriot Edgar.

http://www.monologues.co.uk/Battle_of_Hastings.htm


Oh my goodness!! It's years since I've heard that! My Dad used to recite that regularly at Christmas, once he had had a couple of glasses of Cherry Brandy.  Cheesy - Thank you!!!! I also remember "The 'ole in the Ark", "The Green Eyed Yellow God" and the one about Sam and the Duke of Wellington.

Ok, now I'm officially homesick!!!  

In Christ Smiley
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2006, 01:15:24 AM »

The liturgy largely used in the Celtic church was what was known as the Liturgy of St John the Divine.  This survives in the form of the Stowe Missal, and has been amended slightly to make it compatible for use in the Orthodox Western Rite today.  This was the work of Fr Michael, who is the superior at the ROCOR monastery of St Petroc in Tasmania.  Sadly, he never sought Archbishop Hilarion's blessing to use it, as the focus has tended to be more on the (slightly) post-schism Sarum Rites, which have a more direct link with what English churchmen are accustomed to.

I have a copy of this amended version of the Liturgy of St John the Divine but I'm sure Fr Michael would be happy to supply the original if you asked him.

If you want to know more about the Western Rite of Orthodoxy, which draws largely on those traditions which existed in the pre-Schism Orthodox West, then really the best place to ask is the Ely Forum.

Michael, thanks for those sites - they look really interesting. Something else for me to investigate. Smiley
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2006, 01:51:47 AM »

Wasn't the Whitby Abbey ruin the site of Dracula's arrival to England in Bram Stoker's novel?

Yes, part of "Dracula" does take place in Whitby.  (I don't *just* read Very Old Things  Wink )

Quote
Cadbury Castle is the largest hill-fort in Somerset, just south of Glastonbury, which is the famous place for the legends of King Arthur. It's claimed that the remains of Arthur and Gwenhwvyar have been found there in the grounds of the Abbey, destroyed courtesy of Henry VIII, who judicially murdered the last Abbot and grabbed the Abbey's treasures. Also there is a local legend that Joseph of Arimathea took the young Jesus on a visit there, and later Joseph, escaping the persecution in Jerusalem following the Ressurection, settled there with some Followers. That the young Jesus was in England is the legend behind the Glastonbury Hymn. Words by William Blake.... http://valinor.ca/glaston.html. Beautiful hymn!

I've read a number of the legends surrounding Glastonbury.  Our oldest boy is in a boys choir and one of the songs they sing is "Jerusalem" by Blake.  It's  a classic piece of English choral music from the 19th century.  (and they also do "I Vow to Thee, My Country".  In addition to Gospel numbers and songs from Africa and ones in Latin and Hebrew and French and other languages)

Quote
Oh my goodness!! It's years since I've heard that! My Dad used to recite that regularly at Christmas, once he had had a couple of glasses of Cherry Brandy.  Cheesy - Thank you!!!! I also remember "The 'ole in the Ark", "The Green Eyed Yellow God" and the one about Sam and the Duke of Wellington.

And mustn't forget "Albert and the Lion" or "With 'er 'ead tucked underneith 'er arm"  Grin

But dragging the post vigourously back on topic before the mods notice the drift (tricky that   Wink ).  One of the tricky bits about this topic is when EO persons refer to "Orthodox England" just *what* do they mean by "orthodox"?  That was part of the earlier discussion.  Do they mean "Byzantine Rite"?  Do they mean looking to Constantinople for authority?  

And the references to Harald Godwinson as fighting a religious war doesn't square with the recorded history that he and his brother, Tostig, and their father Earl Godwin were political players whose aims were the acquisition of power and land and wealth while such people as Harald Hardrade and William of Normandy were also trying to gain the same advantage.  And we also have the Norse sagas as reference materials since the British Isles were often part of those records.  There are more things that survive then one might think.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2006, 04:22:41 AM »

But dragging the post vigourously back on topic before the mods notice the drift (tricky that ÂÂ  Wink ). ÂÂ One of the tricky bits about this topic is when EO persons refer to "Orthodox England" just *what* do they mean by "orthodox"? ÂÂ That was part of the earlier discussion. ÂÂ Do they mean "Byzantine Rite"? ÂÂ Do they mean looking to Constantinople for authority?

No, Orthodox England wasn't Byzantine rite. It would seem that the Liturgical ceremony of the first centuries of the Church was fairly fluid, and logically the English Church would eventually gravitate to the Latin Liturgy. But the English Church did, as did all of Christendom, look to the Church as one body for authority - not to one Patriach. Orthodox ecclesiology is very different from Latin ecclesiology. Dogma isn't settled by one man, but by the whole church, represented by bishops under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Issues are settled by a natural shifting process that might culminate in an Ecumenical Council, or simply the mutual resistance of the entire laity to any bishop or Patriarch who might be considered heretical.

It should be kept in mind that the church was truly universal and Orthodox until the ultimate parting of the ways - even though this is more difficult to pinpoint than the 1054 date - between the Roman Patriarch and the other four Patriarchs. The problem today is that when people think of EO, they naturally think of something exotic - and even monolithic to a degree, but this is a misconception that has arisen because of the break with Western Christians, who would have remained "Orthodox" if not for the break, ie; Dogmatically correct without sacrificing their own style of worship and ethnic traditions that didn't clash with the Christian worldview.

We see this today within Eastern Orthodoxy. Though united as one Church on dogmatic issues, each jurisdiction or autocephalus body has its own ethnic traditions and language of preference. This would have been the case with the English and Celtic churches. And this is why the Celtic Church resisted St Augustine's attempts to "force" them to surrender their own traditions and, in effect, become "Romans". Already, by that time there is a militant approach creeping into the Roman Church; conformity at all costs. Sir Steven Runciman puts a lot of the difficulties between West and East down to language, cultural and educational differences, and if you haven't already read it I would recommend his book "The Eastern Schism".

Quote
And the references to Harald Godwinson as fighting a religious war doesn't square with the recorded history that he and his brother, Tostig, and their father Earl Godwin were political players whose aims were the acquisition of power and land and wealth while such people as Harald Hardrade and William of Normandy were also trying to gain the same advantage.  And we also have the Norse sagas as reference materials since the British Isles were often part of those records.  There are more things that survive then one might think.

It's hard to see it as a "religious" war per se - as was the case with the Crusades. There was no "off to fight the infidel" aspect, but obvious political clawing amidst an array of often conflicting information. And yet there are many issues that come into play that could, in fact, justify the claim that it was ultimately a religious war - even if it is seen to be so after the fact.

If one assumes that the EOC is correct in the claim that the Papacy has wandered into heresy/schism, then anyone who was pulled into the Roman net post 1054 - thus divorcing themselves from the historical Church of Apostolic Tradition - is also affected by that heresy. And it can't be avoided that the Norman conquest was blessed by the Roman Patriarch, and the suggestion that this was for the purpose of extending the boundaries of what amounted to Norman power, is hard to ignore; remembering that by that time the Normans/Franks were firmly entrenched in Rome and Europe - very militantly - and the Roman Church was engulfed by the political effects. Of course, someone more knowledgable than I, can make corrections, if I am in error.

In effect then, with the installation of Norman bishops in England, often over the corpses of their Anglo-Saxon predecessors, Latin doctrine replaced English and subsequently Celtic - which had, up to that time, remained Orthodox. It's not an overnight event, but this is where the "religious" war aspect rightly raises its head - and ultimately leaves Harald Godwinson as the last Orthodox King of England. Now, what is to be done with that? I would suggest that if the English Orthodox of today see him as a martyr and saint, it is their prerogative, as it has always been the prerogative of the Orthodox to decide who is worthy of sainthood.

I hope I haven't given any offence and made any huge blunders. I'm sure someone will let me know if I have.

In Christ.  




Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2006, 05:57:01 AM »

As I remember, Whitby isn't far from Hadrian's Wall - that's far north in terms of post-Roman Britain - the Antonine Wall was further north, across the Forth-Clyde valley, but that was abandoned some twenty years after construction, around 160ad.

Whitby's nowhere near Hadrian's wall. It's north of Scarborough on the North Yorkshire coast. It is quite far north, but there's still the rest of North Yorkshire, County Durham and half of Northumberland to cross before you get to the wall. It's knocking on for 100 miles from Whitby to Hexham (which is by the wall) and would take you over 2 hours to drive.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2006, 06:08:26 AM »

Whitby's nowhere near Hadrian's wall. It's north of Scarborough on the North Yorkshire coast. It is quite far north, but there's still the rest of North Yorkshire, County Durham and half of Northumberland to cross before you get to the wall. It's knocking on for 100 miles from Whitby to Hexham (which is by the wall) and would take you over 2 hours to drive.

James

Blast it! That does it! I'm booking a flight home to England to reacquaint myself with the area.

Thanks, James.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2006, 06:39:14 AM »

Michael, thanks for those sites - they look really interesting. Something else for me to investigate. Smiley

Riddikulus, you're very welcome! Smiley

The St Colman Prayer Book is currently in production and will be available in looseleaf form in the not too distant future.  It contains The English Liturgy, The Divine Liturgy of Sarum, The Divine Liturgy of St Gregory and numerous other rites and ceremonies of Western Rite Orthodoxy, which draw on the practice of the pre-Schims West to one degree or another.  This is a publication of the monastery above, and two of the liturgies may be found here and here.
Logged
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2006, 06:47:42 AM »

Blast it! That does it! I'm booking a flight home to England to reacquaint myself with the area.

Thanks, James.



No problem, but wouldn't a map be cheaper? Not that I want to discourage you from visiting Yorkshire, it is God's own county as we Yorkshiremen like to say, after all!

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2006, 08:38:39 AM »

Correct me if I am wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time, but when I came in the sign on the door said "Liturgy".
It was originally in "Prayer", and was split off from another thread there and moved here by Pedro.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2006, 11:58:32 AM »

No, Orthodox England wasn't Byzantine rite. It would seem that the Liturgical ceremony of the first centuries of the Church was fairly fluid, and logically the English Church would eventually gravitate to the Latin Liturgy. But the English Church did, as did all of Christendom, look to the Church as one body for authority - not to one Patriach.

Well, here comes, if you will forgive me, the problem of nomenclature.  Some EO persons refer to pre-1066 as "Orthodox England" and say that all of Christendom was "Orthodox". (Though there are others who do not.)  RC people refer to all of Christendom being "Catholic".  Just to be clear, I am neither nor have I ever been.  I am Anglican, but I came to that Church in my college years, over 31 years ago.  In the early thread, I asked what is the purpose of using either of those words as opposed to just "Christian" and that there were many ways in which Christianity was expressed.  There are connotations and meanings that come with today's ideas of "Catholic" and "Orthodox", I would suggest that are unknown in the world of 1000 years ago.

Also, as to not looking to one patriarch, there are numerous references in things like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and some of the Sagas to people in the northern parts looking to the Bishop of Rome. ÂÂ

Quote
We see this today within Eastern Orthodoxy. Though united as one Church on dogmatic issues, each jurisdiction or autocephalus body has its own ethnic traditions and language of preference. This would have been the case with the English and Celtic churches. And this is why the Celtic Church resisted St Augustine's attempts to "force" them to surrender their own traditions and, in effect, become "Romans".

I've been reading EO fora and writings for over 15 years. I know of the different traditions and forms and (unfortunately) some of the disagreements that have occurred.  On your saying that Augustine attempted to "force" them to surrender: St. Augustine of Canterbury died in 604.  He did try to get the Celtic bishops to change but the accounts seem to suggest that personalities may have conflicted.  Here is one brief telling of his life:
http://www.saintpatrickdc.org/ss/0527.htm

Now the Council of Whitby was in 664 and was, at least in part, brought about for a similar reason to the discussions of setting the calender to calculate Easter at Nicaea, as there might be some people still in lent while others in the family were celebrating the Resurrection. ÂÂ
http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/whitby.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book2.html  (near the bottom of the page, Ch. xix.)

I'm afraid I don't quite follow how such councils could be trying to "force" change as opposed to working on matters such as has happened in many Church councils and synods etc when there is a point of disagreement. I suppose that there might have been Arians who looked on Nicea as "force".  Smiley  Otoh,ÂÂ I recall reading about the troubles that arose in Russia from the "Nikonian Reforms" of the 1650's. That was a matter of force, I think.

I have at least one or two of Sir Stephen Runciman's books.  I'll check the shelves.

Quote
If one assumes that the EOC is correct in the claim that the Papacy has wandered into heresy/schism, then anyone who was pulled into the Roman net post 1054 - thus divorcing themselves from the historical Church of Apostolic Tradition - is also affected by that heresy.

And that is a place where it might be questioned.  My apologies, but I do not assume that the EOC is correct on that matter. Different sides of an issue see things from different angles (no pun intended.  Smiley ) Also, if how would the rulers of England post 1054, specifically Harald Godwinson, not be in the "Roman net"?  What might be the marks or indications that they were or weren't?

Quote

And it can't be avoided that the Norman conquest was blessed by the Roman Patriarch, and the suggestion that this was for the purpose of extending the boundaries of what amounted to Norman power, is hard to ignore; remembering that by that time the Normans/Franks were firmly entrenched in Rome and Europe - very militantly - and the Roman Church was engulfed by the political effects. Of course, someone more knowledgable than I, can make corrections, if I am in error.

This is another point where there may be disagreement.  I will have to dig up the links and references to the sources from the time of why that was done.  Partly it had to do with unpaid money iirc.  But there is also secular power or influence as opposed to something like "those English are part of the EOC, we must take over".  

Quote
In effect then, with the installation of Norman bishops in England, often over the corpses of their Anglo-Saxon predecessors

Stigand, Archbishop of Canterbury did not die until 1070 and Ealred of York in 1069, they was not killed by the Normans though Stigand was deposed and excommunicated (have to check that for why). (ASC) Are you thinking of some particular bishop(s) that I could look for specifically in the works?  (sidebar: Did you know that a French Abbot, Robert of Jumieges, was the ABC (archbp of Cant) from 1050-1052? But he fled and Stigand took office.  I love history.  Grin )  http://www.btinternet.com/~timeref/hstt42.htm#J254


Quote
Latin doctrine replaced English and subsequently Celtic - which had, up to that time, remained Orthodox.

What doctrines of the 11th Century are you thinking of that are "Latin" as opposed to "English" or "Celtic" please?  Aside from the Filioque, what ones might be unique to those countries/cultures as doctrines rather then customs or practices?  (Just when the Filioque reached England or Scandinavia is rather tricky to find out, I'm still working on it.)

Quote
It's not an overnight event, but this is where the "religious" war aspect rightly raises its head - and ultimately leaves Harald Godwinson as the last Orthodox King of England.

Well, that is a point that I cannot see *how* Harald is taken as being "Orthodox".  In what way was he different in being "Christian" (allowing for the battles and skirmishes and politics) then Olaf of Norway or William of Normandy?
 
With respect

Ebor

edited as I hit post instead of preview.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 12:30:54 PM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2006, 12:31:49 PM »

It was originally in "Prayer", and was split off from another thread there and moved here by Pedro.


Such is the Power of the Mods and the Topical (as opposed to Continental) Drift.   Wink

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2006, 12:33:52 PM »

Riddikulus?  May I ask what EO body you are a member of?  If you prefer not to say, I will understand and apologize for asking.

Ebor

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2006, 04:24:06 PM »

The St Colman Prayer Book is currently in production and will be available in looseleaf form in the not too distant future.  It contains The English Liturgy, The Divine Liturgy of Sarum, The Divine Liturgy of St Gregory and numerous other rites and ceremonies of Western Rite Orthodoxy, which draw on the practice of the pre-Schims West to one degree or another.  This is a publication of the monastery above, and two of the liturgies may be found here and here.

Thanks again, Michael - This is very interesting. I mentioned the subject of Western rite to my husband and he reminded me that we actually know someone who is Western rite. (I need to check out if there are supplements to aid with memory!! lol) My husband is pretty sure that our acquaintance uses liturgical Latin, but then he is a Latin professor. Do you use Latin in Western rite, or purely English?

In Christ Smiley
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2006, 04:32:48 PM »

No problem, but wouldn't a map be cheaper? Not that I want to discourage you from visiting Yorkshire, it is God's own county as we Yorkshiremen like to say, after all!

James

No, I definitely believe it's time for a visit!!!

A dear uncle of mine was from Yorkshire. What a character he was. He would come out with the funniest things; little bits of dialect from his region. When he and my Dad were together it was such a laugh; Dad could remember bits of Sussex dialect. Finally, I never knew which was Yorkshire and which was Sussex. Every now and then I find myself coming out with something that causes someone to look at me very oddly.  Grin
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2006, 04:36:02 PM »

It was originally in "Prayer", and was split off from another thread there and moved here by Pedro.


Yes, I'm sorry, ozgeorge. The conversation did get a "little" off topic. I think we should lay the blame at Ebor's door......(says she looking very innocent).   Roll Eyes

In Christ Smiley
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2006, 04:40:19 PM »

Sadly, and peculiarly, there are no WRite parishes or monasteries in the UK.  There was one Antiochian parish which used the WRite, but they have since gone ERite.  I would love to have a WRite parish to go to but I am more than happy where I now am.

The Antiochian WRite is slightly different from that of ROCOR, in that they tend to follow a modified version of the 1928 American Book of Common Prayer.  The Divine Liturgy is the Rite of St Tikhon, although they do use the Liturgy nof St Gregory as well.  While I can cope with the latter, the former, while well-intentioned, is really a hotch-potch of the Prayer Book, the Anglican Missal and other sources, and isn't really a continuation of any one particular tradition.  With the other rites, they are valid developments of the Liturgy as it would have been used in the pre-Schism Orthodox West.

I'm not sure that WRite parishes and monasteries do use Latin, to be honest.  I know the ROCOR monasteries don't, as he point of the WRite is to restore the Orthodox Faith to the peoples of the western world using a form that is accessible to them and faithful to Western Orthodox tradition.  Therefore, on the accessibility front, I don't see Latin becoming prevalent.  It just seems a little disconnected from the purpose of the WRite efforts.  I wouldn't mind the occasional Latin Liturgy though.

I'm really enjoying this thread.  Thanks for starting it.
Logged
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2006, 06:01:06 PM »

There was one Antiochian parish which used the WRite, but they have since gone ERite.

How come this happened?  Do you happen to know?

Quote
While I can cope with the [Rite of St Gregory], the [Rite of St Tikhon], while well-intentioned, is really a hotch-potch of the Prayer Book, the Anglican Missal and other sources, and isn't really a continuation of any one particular tradition.  With the other rites, they are valid developments of the Liturgy as it would have been used in the pre-Schism Orthodox West.

I may be misunderstanding this first part of what you're saying, Michael, so correct me if I'm wrong...it just seems like you said something different later, which I'll quote and with which I agree...

I think this is where a lot of people--WR and ER alike--misunderstand the original point of the establishment of the WR within the Orthodox Church.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to resurrect the original rites as practiced within the Orthodox West.  IMPOSSIBLE.  A carbon copy cannot be made, as the totality of the rites as they existed has passed into the extinction of non-use.  They are no longer living Orthodox traditions.

This, however, is not what the bishops were looking to do.  Really, they were looking to do what Michael stated later in the post I just quoted: the bishops looked to "restore the Orthodox Faith to the peoples of the western world using a form that is accessible to them and faithful to Western Orthodox tradition."  That's it.  It is not to restore to the Orthodox Faith the exact, original liturgies of Her pre-schism days.

I love what the Western Rite is: a baptism of rites of heterodox groups which were once a part of the Church but no longer are, rites which nonetheless have much within them that is already compatible with our faith, and which are now corrected according to our theology, pneumatology, etc.  The Church has absolutely NO reason to exist according to a single rite, as such a situation NEVER existed within the Church before the schism.  Therefore, if a synod sees an opportunity to LEGITIMATELY--and that is an important key word there--integrate a living tradition from some other ancient heterodox group BACK INTO the Church and correct as needed (as the Moscow and Antiochian synods each did multiple times with the Rites of Gregory and Tikhon), then I think they not only have the right but the responsibility to do so, for the sake of the catholicity of the Church.

Michael and numerous others of us have probably already read Lux Occidentalis--found **right here** in pdf format--but it is by far the best apologia for the use, historicity and orthodoxy of the two liturgies of the WR that I've seen, and have not read--online or otherwise--a rebuttal to the claims of this essay.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 06:03:42 PM by Pedro » Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2006, 06:46:41 PM »

How come this happened?  Do you happen to know?

I don't know the exact details, but from what I've heard, they were the only WRite community in the UK, and so, as a minority within a minority, found it difficult.

Regarding the seeming contradition in my post, upon re-reading it, I see what you mean.  That's my own fault for not phrasing it clearly.  I fully agree with you that the restoration of the Western Rite should not be viewed as an attempt at liturgical archaeology.  I suppose what I was trying to say (albeit poorly), was that rites such as the Sarum Liturgy and the Liturgy of St Gregory satisfy both a claim to continuity with the pre-schism Western Rites and also an accessibility to the contemporary Western Christian.  They are both developments of the pre-schism rites - and that's the key: they are developments - for liturgical tradition grows and changes organically.  Even the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is not performed today as it would have been 1500 years ago.

I was contrasting these liturgies with the Liturgy of St Tikhon, which did not develop within the life of a community of Faith with its own traditions, customs, piety and ceremonial, but rather was a new rite, created by combining parts of different texts, with propers from The Anglican Missal (which was never an authorised rite in any Anglican church), and texts from the American Book of common prayer but largely rearranged to fit a more classical Western liturgical shape.  The result is a liturgy which, while well-intentioned, doesn't have any sort of continuity with what has gone before, doesn;t have a tradition behind it, and doesn't really flow particularly well because it is a mix'n'match of various sources.  I would have no problem going to such a Liturgy as it is indeed a proper and valid Liturgy of the Church - I just think that we could do better, especially if we expect the Western Rite to be taken seriously by the opposition whose only reasoning seems to be "East good, West bad".
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2006, 07:45:24 PM »

Well, here comes, if you will forgive me, the problem of nomenclature.  Some EO persons refer to pre-1066 as "Orthodox England" and say that all of Christendom was "Orthodox". (Though there are others who do not.)  RC people refer to all of Christendom being "Catholic".  Just to be clear, I am neither nor have I ever been.  I am Anglican, but I came to that Church in my college years, over 31 years ago.  In the early thread, I asked what is the purpose of using either of those words as opposed to just "Christian" and that there were many ways in which Christianity was expressed.  There are connotations and meanings that come with today's ideas of "Catholic" and "Orthodox", I would suggest that are unknown in the world of 1000 years ago.

Let me say, that I agree with you completely that there were many ways in which Christianity was expressed. Sorry, I thought I had made that clear in my post.

And definitely you are correct about the connotations and meanings regarding "Catholic" and "Orthodox" and perhaps working on the nomenclature is a desperate need. ("Christian" might not work, as there are some within the EO who would not consider those outside their Church to be Christian, but I'm not one of them - so moving right along.)

I was also Anglican and have never been Roman Catholic, though I did consider moving in that direction in my early days of discontentment. (An aside)

However, I'm going to have to approach your questions from the EO point of view, as best I can. If we assume that the whole of Christendom at the time of 1066 (apart from those which had separated for whatever reason - something else that needs to be resolved - somehow!) was indeed "catholic"; universal in dogma set down by the seven Ecumenical Councils, then each of the five Patriarchs, the Roman included, was "kept honest" by his fellow Patriarchs. If one Patriarch steps out of agreement with the others, as happened with the Roman Patriarchate with introduction of the filioque, Papal Supremacy, etc, then the union falls. The reasons for this are numerous and occured over a long period, but at some point the West begins to see doctrine differently than the East.   ÃƒÆ’‚  

Quote
Also, as to not looking to one patriarch, there are numerous references in things like the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and some of the Sagas to people in the northern parts looking to the Bishop of Rome.

Yes, and naturally so - and as long as the Roman Patriarch is in union with the others, correct dogma is preserved and understood in a certain way. The EO claim is that the Roman Patriarchate "lost the plot", no longer understanding dogma in the sense that the Church had universally understood it, and could no longer be considered part of what is truly "catholic"; ie universal in Dogma.

Of course, terms like Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic are forced upon us by the break. The EO claims to be the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and it seems, to me at least, that if there is One, it should be of one mind on Dogma as St Paul suggests it should be. As I said in the earlier post, differences on minor traditions are acceptable, but deviation from the thought of the Church on dogmatic issues aren't.

Quote
I've been reading EO fora and writings for over 15 years. I know of the different traditions and forms and (unfortunately) some of the disagreements that have occurred.  On your saying that Augustine attempted to "force" them to surrender: St. Augustine of Canterbury died in 604.  He did try to get the Celtic bishops to change but the accounts seem to suggest that personalities may have conflicted.  Here is one brief telling of his life:
http://www.saintpatrickdc.org/ss/0527.htm

Now the Council of Whitby was in 664 and was, at least in part, brought about for a similar reason to the discussions of setting the calender to calculate Easter at Nicaea, as there might be some people still in lent while others in the family were celebrating the Resurrection. ÂÂ
http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/whitby.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book2.html  (near the bottom of the page, Ch. xix.)

I'm afraid I don't quite follow how such councils could be trying to "force" change as opposed to working on matters such as has happened in many Church councils and synods etc when there is a point of disagreement. I suppose that there might have been Arians who looked on Nicea as "force".  Smiley  Otoh, I recall reading about the troubles that arose in Russia from the "Nikonian Reforms" of the 1650's. That was a matter of force, I think.

I must apologise for not making it clear that I used "force' in a tongue in cheek manner.

Quote
And that is a place where it might be questioned.  My apologies, but I do not assume that the EOC is correct on that matter. Different sides of an issue see things from different angles (no pun intended.  Smiley ) Also, if how would the rulers of England post 1054, specifically Harald Godwinson, not be in the "Roman net"?  What might be the marks or indications that they were or weren't?

You don't have to apologise for not assuming that the EOC is correct. And yes, there are many angles (smirk) to see this issue from. First of all, I personally don't see 1054 as the point of no return for the Roman Patriarchate and his Eastern compadres to reconcile. I know that most people seem to use it as a cut off point, but it seems rather artifically contrived. Of course, there were the excommunications, but that was between two of the five Patriarchs, and so many other issues come into play (personality clashes, lack of diplomacy, unwilliness to understand each side's point of view, etc). Yet I do believe that there was hope for reconciliation and an eventual happy outcome.  (Just as there were hopes of eventual understandings between Chalcedeons and Non-Chalcedeons. But history isn't a smooth ride; it is a road full of pot-holes and unexpected hazards and often events come of the blue to prevent easy communication and there was a kind of shut down. Then each side falls into the habit of considering others "heretics" without the compassion to examine the facts and hope of future communication and resolution is lost ----another aside). Who knows what might have happened if Christian charity had prevailed. As is so often the case, Christian charity flies out the window when a threat is perceived.

With regard to England not being in the Roman net, I'll have to work on memory here (groan), because it's such a long time since I really looked into this carefully. I might venture to suggest that at that time there would have been certain freedoms in England which were curtailed following the Norman conquest. From what I remember (Lord have mercy) of the history of this time, there's a vaguely similar thing going on in Europe to that which transpired during the years leading up to WWII. A particular group of people, the Normans, have gained supremacy and are establishing themselves as a political force to be reckoned with. Now, you would think that little England and her Celtic neighbours aren't all that important, but history tells us that even the ancient Romans recognised her potential for various reasons and from all the later interest in England we can see that her colonisation was considered very desirable.

Still, at that point, the English and Celtic churches were relatively free of the control established in Europe, and hence somewhat independant of the political machinations within the Roman Church. English/Celtic Bishops still had the ability to disagree with the Roman Patriarch if they considered him to be heretical/schismatic/whatever and continue on a path that they considered to be correct. With the Norman conquest this ended. Conformity to all the conditions of the Roman Church were implimented. Papal authority became absolute.

Quote
But there is also secular power or influence as opposed to something like "those English are part of the EOC, we must take over".

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

Quote
Stigand, Archbishop of Canterbury did not die until 1070 and Ealred of York in 1069, they was not killed by the Normans though Stigand was deposed and excommunicated (have to check that for why). (ASC) Are you thinking of some particular bishop(s) that I could look for specifically in the works?  (sidebar: Did you know that a French Abbot, Robert of Jumieges, was the ABC (archbp of Cant) from 1050-1052? But he fled and Stigand took office.  I love history.  Grin )  http://www.btinternet.com/~timeref/hstt42.htm#J254

Yes, I love history, too. It can be consuming!!!! My main area of interest used to be Ancient Rome - especially the Julian-Claudian period. When the kids were young, I would read into the early hours of the morning and then have to drag myself out of bed to greet them with a happy face (usually already at the breakfast table with hubby). Grin Then I expanded my interests to include Roman Britain - the Boudiccan rebellion is a particular fascination of mine. (Oh dear, another aside)

I'll have to search for some references regarding the replacement of Anglo-Saxon Bishops. I just can't remember details off the cuff.

Quote
What doctrines of the 11th Century are you thinking of that are "Latin" as opposed to "English" or "Celtic" please?  Aside from the Filioque, what ones might be unique to those countries/cultures as doctrines rather then customs or practices?  (Just when the Filioque reached England or Scandinavia is rather tricky to find out, I'm still working on it.)

Well, I don't see the issue regarding the English and Celtic churches as being merely a question of 11th Century doctrines, but the ongoing lack of freedom to reject what the Roman Patriarchate decides in later years. The Filioque was flitting about the place for some time before being adopted as absolute dogma by the West.

I know that often people look at the EO and see only the infighting. But, to me, this is one of the attractive features of the Orthodox Church; the freedom of all the laity to speak out and reject what is perceived as doubtful within the heirarchy. If one of our bishops, or even a Patriarch, is out of line on dogma, there will be a hew and cry. The belief that Christ left a Church, a community, rather than a single representative to decide doctrinal issues is very much ingrained in the EO psyche. And, I believe, that this would have been the case in the 11th Century English/Celtic churches. However, that freedom was denied them with the developing militant approach of the Papacy, installed in England by the Norman conquerors.

Quote
Well, that is a point that I cannot see *how* Harald is taken as being "Orthodox".  In what way was he different in being "Christian" (allowing for the battles and skirmishes and politics) then Olaf of Norway or William of Normandy?

All three were "Christian", ie: believers in Christ, unless God judges them by their actions in this life to be otherwise. Naturally, this applies to us all.

From my studies, I see that at the time of the invasion of England, the developing ecclesiology of the Norman/Frankish influenced Western Church on the continent was more aggressive, more authoritarian, more centred of the single representative of Christ and how he could be manipulated to use his absolute authority for political gain, or how he could manipulate others to use his absolute authority for political gain.

As the English/Celtic churches are pulled into that net they could do nothing but change from what amounts to an Orthodox mindset of ecclesiology (any hew and cry regarding perceived heresies would not have been tolerated). The freedom to speak out against innovations is removed, until finally Anglo-Saxon and Celtic objections, in a Norman dominated society, to the new "Christianity" surplanting their own are curtailed; either by force, or by the eventual and inevitable loss of contact with their original Christian roots. Though this was forced (no tongue in cheek this time) upon them, the face of the English/Celtic ecclesiology changed, as had the face of the Western ecclesiology in previous centuries. The community aspect of the Church is replaced by a single representative and those who follow him without question.

It is in the ecclesiological sense that Harald would have been Orthodox; ie, part of the Church that saw itself as a community of believers who followed the seven Councils on dogmatic issues. Obviously, as long as the Roman Patriarch was “Orthodox” in ecclesiology, so were those under his jurisdiction — as this changed, so did those who followed or were forced to follow suit.

(Time for a disclaimer - I'm not an expert and even if I were I could still be partially or even completely incorrect in my assessment of what I believe to be the historical situation. After all, one can only study so much and come to conclusions to the best of one's ability and knowledge, which is always going to be limited. I was once assured that if I studied Epistemology I would know that I was right in what I believed. So I did, and still I came to the conclusion that I can only believe according to my knowledge and not know that I am right - knowing is for God, who knows all things. Which is why I must emphasise that I make no judgements against those who disagree with my conclusion to believe in favour of Eastern Orthodoxy).

I hope I have answers all your questions with lucidity. Smiley

In Christ Smiley
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 08:43:22 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2006, 07:51:11 PM »

Riddikulus?  May I ask what EO body you are a member of?  If you prefer not to say, I will understand and apologize for asking.

I converted with the Greeks and would still be with them if they hadn't "lost" their priest. In frustration, I turned to an Antiochian Parish where my husband has been ordained as Fr Deacon. (So I think we might be staying.) Although, I do miss the liturgy in Greek.
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2006, 07:57:14 PM »

Sadly, and peculiarly, there are no WRite parishes or monasteries in the UK.

That does seem odd.

Quote
I'm not sure that WRite parishes and monasteries do use Latin, to be honest.  I know the ROCOR monasteries don't, as he point of the WRite is to restore the Orthodox Faith to the peoples of the western world using a form that is accessible to them and faithful to Western Orthodox tradition.  Therefore, on the accessibility front, I don't see Latin becoming prevalent.  It just seems a little disconnected from the purpose of the WRite efforts.  I wouldn't mind the occasional Latin Liturgy though.

Yes, I agree it sould be a little disconnected from the purpose of WRite efforts. I think our acquaintance only keeps to the Latin because of his love for the language. My Latin is way too rusty to cope.  Undecided

Quote
I'm really enjoying this thread.  Thanks for starting it.

You are welcome. Smiley
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2006, 11:27:02 PM »

Considering the lateness, we can continue this on Tuesday.  Wink

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2006, 05:11:36 PM »

And definitely you are correct about the connotations and meanings regarding "Catholic" and "Orthodox" and perhaps working on the nomenclature is a desperate need. ("Christian" might not work, as there are some within the EO who would not consider those outside their Church to be Christian, but I'm not one of them - so moving right along.)

Sorry about not getting back until today.  Life, the Universe and everything....  Smiley

I have read a good number of both EO and RC who said that outside of *their* group there are no Christians, that *they* somehow own the name.  Sigh.    Could you please explain why "Christian" would not work to describe the millions of people of various rites prior to 1054, in your opinion?  I don't quite follow.  But calling them "Orthodox" or "Catholic" seems to apply the modern ummm picture over the historical one.

Quote
Yes, and naturally so - and as long as the Roman Patriarch is in union with the others, correct dogma is preserved and understood in a certain way. The EO claim is that the Roman Patriarchate "lost the plot", no longer understanding dogma in the sense that the Church had universally understood it, and could no longer be considered part of what is truly "catholic"; ie universal in Dogma.

And the RCs claim that it was the reverse.  There does seem to have been the occasional umm ego/pride in some times and places where people who disagreed with each other from some of the histories I've read.  (Sorry)

Quote
Of course, terms like Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic are forced upon us by the break. The EO claims to be the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and it seems, to me at least, that if there is One, it should be of one mind on Dogma as St Paul suggests it should be. As I said in the earlier post, differences on minor traditions are acceptable, but deviation from the thought of the Church on dogmatic issues aren't.

Yet, there have been those who cannot brook the least difference from what they happen to like; any disagreement or other ways have lead to firefights and recriminations and uncharity and more. I've seen it on the net and I've read about it.  Granted, I am not as deeply read in Russian history, but the Nikonian 'reforms' were not accepting of 'minor traditions' from what I recall (since it lead to bloodshed and the split of the Old Believers among other things)

Quote
Then each side falls into the habit of considering others "heretics" without the compassion to examine the facts and hope of future communication and resolution is lost ----another aside). Who knows what might have happened if Christian charity had prevailed. As is so often the case, Christian charity flies out the window when a threat is perceived.

A threat, or being disagreed with or just being different, maybe.  Human Beings are often guilty of wanting everything like themselves or that the only way to do things is the way they like it: the idea of "My way is the Law of the Universe(tm) and anything else is Evil." Often someone in a position of power feels free to give the equivalent of "My way or the Highway" which may lead to those being so ordered to take umbrage and hit the highway.
 
Quote
With regard to England not being in the Roman net, I'll have to work on memory here (groan), because it's such a long time since I really looked into this carefully. I might venture to suggest that at that time there would have been certain freedoms in England which were curtailed following the Norman conquest.

If you could please at some point find sources or links for what those might have been and how it theoretically changed, I would appreciate it.

Quote
A particular group of people, the Normans, have gained supremacy and are establishing themselves as a political force to be reckoned with. Now, you would think that little England and her Celtic neighbours aren't all that important, but history tells us that even the ancient Romans recognised her potential for various reasons and from all the later interest in England we can see that her colonisation was considered very desirable.

The political situation (or the "Who has the most land and power" situation  Wink ) was not limited to the Normans.  The Norse were forces to be reckoned with and they were just as interested in gaining England.  It wasn't little, it had farm land and grazing lands and people to work them.  Gaining as much as one could was the order of the day (and still is often)  Earl Godwin and his sons and various other Saxon lords were also playing for this.  The Norse had been spreading out for some time to gain new lands to emigrate to (farmland again, for one thing, Norway and Sweden weren't getting any bigger  Cheesy )  They built the beginnings of Dublin in 841 and had other settlements and then the Danes took over.  

Also, there was a lot of interaction between England and the Continent.  It was when King Canute took over that the royal family fled to France for protection.  Also, as a side point, Edgar the Aetheling was King Edward's Grand-nephew and was supposed to inherit the throne.  Harald was related by marriage and took over when Edward died.  To borrow a quote from the first LotR movie: "...the race of Men, who above all desire Power."  Edgar when on to make attempts to take back the English throne and from my reading it wasn't for religious reasons.

Here's a thumbnail sketch of him: Note the interaction with Constantinople in later years and who was fighting for whom
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Edgar%20Atheling

Quote
Still, at that point, the English and Celtic churches were relatively free of the control established in Europe, and hence somewhat independant of the political machinations within the Roman Church. English/Celtic Bishops still had the ability to disagree with the Roman Patriarch if they considered him to be heretical/schismatic/whatever and continue on a path that they considered to be correct. With the Norman conquest this ended. Conformity to all the conditions of the Roman Church were implimented. Papal authority became absolute.

Can you please give some examples of what you mean here?

Quote
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

By secular power I mean the old drive to gain wealth and land and power or to act because one is under the control of a superior force.  I have read things that make it seem like the Pope was calling down a religious crusade against the English as though they were not Christian.

Quote
I'll have to search for some references regarding the replacement of Anglo-Saxon Bishops. I just can't remember details off the cuff.

Thank you.

Quote
Well, I don't see the issue regarding the English and Celtic churches as being merely a question of 11th Century doctrines, but the ongoing lack of freedom to reject what the Roman Patriarchate decides in later years. The Filioque was flitting about the place for some time before being adopted as absolute dogma by the West.

Yet, how were those who disagreed with the Byzantine Patriarchate treated?  The history of the Iconoclasts/Iconodules was not one of 'live and let live' at times maybe.

Quote
I know that often people look at the EO and see only the infighting. But, to me, this is one of the attractive features of the Orthodox Church; the freedom of all the laity to speak out and reject what is perceived as doubtful within the heirarchy. If one of our bishops, or even a Patriarch, is out of line on dogma, there will be a hew and cry.

Well, there's that word "perceived".  I've seen way too many cases on-line where one person (sometimes fairly new to being EO) decides that a Bishop or Synod is wrong and they know better. This can lead to denunciations and wrangling and more.  Sometimes, I suggest, the layperson *doesn't* know better, but is just reacting to something that they personally don't like and is so sure in their own mind that they are Right.  I've also read some pretty heavy handed hierarchs, too, who do not like any suggestion that the hierarchy may be in error.  Pride and 'what *I* like' will often get in the way.  Your description may be an ideal, but it doesn't seem to be the way it happens all the time

Quote
The belief that Christ left a Church, a community, rather than a single representative to decide doctrinal issues is very much ingrained in the EO psyche. And, I believe, that this would have been the case in the 11th Century English/Celtic churches. However, that freedom was denied them with the developing militant approach of the Papacy, installed in England by the Norman conquerors.

I do not mean to offend, but this and the paragraphs that followed,  is another place where I would like to ask if you could please give some sources.  Where does this view of Christianity in England and Ireland etc come from?  

Quote
It is in the ecclesiological sense that Harald would have been Orthodox; ie, part of the Church that saw itself as a community of believers who followed the seven Councils on dogmatic issues.

Yet, this is not the way Harald seems to be portrayed. I have read pieces that would seem to say that Harald Godwinson was Orthodox in such a way as EO are today and that he died fighting a religious battle.  He was fighting for the throne of England on more then one front.

Quote
Which is why I must emphasise that I make no judgements against those who disagree with my conclusion to believe in favour of Eastern Orthodoxy).

Thank you.  I appreciate that.  I've had more then enough of those in my time, and they get old and tiring.  

I'm sorry this has gone on so long.  I should have cut it in two,perhaps.

With respect,

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,432



« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2006, 05:17:30 PM »

I love what the Western Rite is: a baptism of rites of heterodox groups which were once a part of the Church but no longer are, rites which nonetheless have much within them that is already compatible with our faith, and which are now corrected according to our theology, pneumatology, etc.  The Church has absolutely NO reason to exist according to a single rite, as such a situation NEVER existed within the Church before the schism.  Therefore, if a synod sees an opportunity to LEGITIMATELY--and that is an important key word there--integrate a living tradition from some other ancient heterodox group BACK INTO the Church and correct as needed (as the Moscow and Antiochian synods each did multiple times with the Rites of Gregory and Tikhon), then I think they not only have the right but the responsibility to do so, for the sake of the catholicity of the Church.

Thank you for those words, Pedro.

I've read too many "East Good, West Bad" and "there's nothing the West can bring to EO" etc.  The "WR" at least in part comes from a Living Tradition.  It's not the EO but St. Tikhon thought it had it's good points and was willing to, as you wrote, "baptise" them.  

But there's still plenty of "East Only" and "God doesn't hear any chant but Byzantine" and all that sort of thing.  Sigh.

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.205 seconds with 69 queries.