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Author Topic: Serbian Orthodox Church in Romania  (Read 4332 times) Average Rating: 0
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SouthSerb99
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« on: February 27, 2006, 04:49:14 PM »

I'm a little confused about this issue, so maybe some of our seminarians can help.

Recently, there have been issues between the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Romanian Orthodox Church, with regards to ROC Churches being built in Serbia, with Romanian Priests, Romanian Liturgy etc...

Now, the SOC has complained that they can tend to the needs of Romanian Orthodox Christians and therefore they do not need "their own" Churches, which would also violate the "one Bishop" per city rule.

However, I was discussing this further with a friend and he pointed me to this website http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-ro/acrkve.htm, which outlines the Serbian Orthodox Church's Eparchy in Romania, and lists all of the SOC Churches under her "jurisdiction".

Which leads me to my questions...

1.   How can the SOC have this Eparchy in Romania?

2.   How can you complain about Romanian Orthodox Churches in Serbia, when you have Serbian Churches in Romania?  Isn't this a tad hypocritical?

I'm a little troubled by it all, and I would appreciate an explanation anyone might have.  I know Serb1389 is a seminarian (and can read the site I provided), but I really would appreciate an explanation (from anyone).  Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2006, 06:46:55 PM »

In Greece - as far as I understand it - the (Orthodox) ethnic minorities do tend to have their own parishes with a priest of their ethnicity and liturgy in their language BUT they are under the ecclesiatical jurisdiction of the Church of Greece.  Similar to how regardless of nationality and language all monasteries (in theory) of Athos commorate the Patriarch of Constantinople.  That is how things are supposed to work.... but nationalism likes to rear its ugly head and certain Orthodox people will still always claim they can't seperate being X with being Orthodox.  
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 12:25:07 AM »

That's what I was trying to figure out with the website I posted but it isn't clear.  Maybe the Eparchy is under the Romanian Patriarchate, in which case it would seem more in line with one Bishop, One City.  
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 06:14:35 AM »

Some related posts from another thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8250.msg108103#msg108103

3. It is possible within the same diocese to have parishes that are ethnic.  At the same OISM meeting, I was told that Fr. John Behr (sp?) got up and talked about how in his 10 years of studying 2nd Century CHristianity he has discovered that at that time in the major cities the "parishes" (groups meeting in the home-churches and catecombs) were organized often around ethnic/cultural backgrounds (i.e. the Antiochians would worship together, the Romans, the Corinthians, etc.).  


I would like to just address point # 3 from Cleveland, so that people have even more things to mull over...YAY!  haha.  

Fr. John Behr made a response to Bishop BASIL after the keynote.

He mentioned (as Cleveland mentioned) that in the 2nd century the Christians were living in a very similar system to what we have today.  He pointed out that in Rome, for example, there would be Antiochians praying together, Alexandrians praying together, Thessalonians praying together, but none of them with the Romans, and none of them with each other.  

When I say praying I mean getting together and commemorating Jesus Christ, which would include communion.  

Fr. John explained that the issue of different groups in the same city is a progression of history in the church.  
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 08:17:42 AM »

SouthSerb,

I don't know anything about the Serbs in Romania (opposite corner of the country from the area I'm familiar with) but there are certainly the odd ethnic Slav (Ukrainian, I believe, though perhaps Russian) parishes in North Eastern Romania. There is, for instance, one such church that I have visited in Suceava. I could ask my wife or our priest and deacon (who as of Sunday is my daughter's godfather) and see whether they know about this stuff. Our deacon's family are close to Metropolitan Daniel of Moldova, so I hear (he provided us with an icon of Sf. Daniil Sihastru for the baptism which I was surprised and touched by) and Fr Constantine actually comes from the south west, so he may well know of the Serbian situation. Please let me know if you would like me to try and find out for you. I don't know of any Serbian Eparchy under our Patriarch but if you find any resources in Romanian on the subject I would be happy to translate for you. I'll also have a look for myself.

I've never heard of any tensions between the Romanian and Slav parishes in Bucovina, at least, and they were quite welcoming to us at the church I mentioned above. It saddens me to hear of tensions between our churches in Serbia.

James

Edit:

I've had a look around at various sites in English and Romanian and it appears as though the Serbian Exarchate in Romania is under the Serbian bishop of Timisoara (Fr. Constantine is also from this area so would certainly have some knowledge of the issue) and from what I can gather he is under the Patriarch Pavle and not Teoctist. I can see why this might concern you. Perhaps a sensible solution might be for our churches to put the corresponding exarchates under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchs in whose countries they operate? Or is that just me being naively idealistic?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 08:31:52 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 10:58:30 AM »

I've had a look around at various sites in English and Romanian and it appears as though the Serbian Exarchate in Romania is under the Serbian bishop of Timisoara (Fr. Constantine is also from this area so would certainly have some knowledge of the issue) and from what I can gather he is under the Patriarch Pavle and not Teoctist. I can see why this might concern you. Perhaps a sensible solution might be for our churches to put the corresponding exarchates under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchs in whose countries they operate? Or is that just me being naively idealistic?
 That is what I suspected and hoped against.

This doesn't make ANY sense to me.  Why would the Serbian Bishop of Timisoara (Romania) be under the jurisdiction of Patriarch Pavle in stead of Patriarch Teoctist?  At the expense of being overly critical of my Church, why isn't this hypocritical?

James, any more (other) info you could provide would be most welcome.  I'm perplexed (and saddened by it all).
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 11:12:14 PM »

It's one of those things about which we don't have enough information to make a judgement.  If it's a hypocritical stanse then our bishops that hold it will have a lot to answer for to God.  If it is not and we condemn those who have been placed above us then we will have to answer before God for our rebellion.  

I pray for our bishops that they make the right decisions.
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2006, 01:20:52 AM »

James,
Just a little bit of information. I know that all canonical Ukrainian parishes in Romania belong to Romanian Orthodox Church. Actually, my parish priest is originally from there. I have not heard about any Russian parishes in that area. There are Old Believers, I know.
Romanian parishes in Bukovyna belong to Ukrainian Orthodox Church - MP.
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2006, 03:34:01 AM »

James,
Just a little bit of information. I know that all canonical Ukrainian parishes in Romania belong to Romanian Orthodox Church. Actually, my parish priest is originally from there. I have not heard about any Russian parishes in that area. There are Old Believers, I know.
Romanian parishes in Bukovyna belong to Ukrainian Orthodox Church - MP.

Thanks for the information. That is actually what I had thought was the case, which is good. I was disappointed to see, though, that the same does not appear to be true with regards to the Serbian churches in the south west. The fact that I wasn't sure whether the parishes I'm familiar with were Ukrainian or Russian was due to Romanians commonly referring to Ukrainians as Rusi (Russians). As to Romanian parishes in northern Bucovina, whilst I'm glad that there aren't tensions there between our Church and the MP, it seems to me that, given that the area was annexed by Stalin that land is actually part of the canonical territory of the Romanian Patriarchate (as is the case in Besarabia, where there are tensions between the two churches). Ideally I would like to see the Romanian church back in all her canonical territories but given the political realities it probably won't happen. We'll probably just have to settle for the current situation and give up on northern Bucovina and southern Besarabia, though it would cause less tension all around if the MP would leave the Republic of Moldova (minus Transdnistria) amicably.

James
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2006, 05:16:14 PM »

Hey SS99 did you read that article?  MAN what a web we weave...

Basically it says that the reason for the Serbian Bishop in Banat is because of history.  

This history came full circle after WWI and WWII, which caused the borders to change, but the EPARCHIAL borders never changed.  

What we need to look at is where Romania's Patriarchate is cut off, where its borders end.  Is it Romania proper?  In which case Romanian Banat would be part of THEIR patriarchate.  If its more limiting than that, then we would have to go by history....I think.  

Maybe one of us can sit down and translate it...right now i'm running late
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2006, 05:19:51 PM »

Oh and the site did say that the bishop is under Patriach Pavle, as the exarch of the Serbian Orthodox church, to clear up any misgivings about that...

To me it was very clear, and the way it was written was almost an attitude of "yah duh" or it could even be look at as "woops we did this and now we gota live with it"
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2006, 07:21:46 PM »

S1389,

    I think your understanding of Serbian writings about Church matters is beyond mine.  I struggled with a lot of it.  I must say, Cizinec has a good approach and I do not want to seem prematurely judgmental about our Church or our Patriarch, but it worries me.

    I don't quite understand it.
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2006, 11:00:28 PM »

Well here's my attempt at translating the text...sorry guys this isn't going to be word for word throughout the WHOLE text, but i'll try to be as exact as possible:

"Orthodox Serbian Diocese of Temishora"

"It is still uncertain when and how the Temishora diocese was established.  Paper trails start from the 16th century and at that time they swear to the Patriarchate of Pec [Serbia].  It is an important coincidence that serbs in these lands had a broken church life much before the Great Migration (1690), and one of these former serbian bishops, Isaiah (Djakovic), became one of the strongest pillars before the comming of Patriarch Arsenije III (Charnojevic) [Serbian].  And after the Great Migration, and long after the settling of Krushedolsk (1708), in other words Karlovach Mitropolia (1718), [Karlovci is an area of Northeast Serbia which has a long established metropolia] the diocese of Temishora stayed in the competence [literal trans.] of the Belgrade Metropolis, until the uniting of the Belgrad and Karlovach Metropli, which Temishora belonged to, as a seperate entity.  The peace between Austria and Turkey in 1718, gave to Austria Banat, Olteniju, parts of Serbia with Belgrade, parts of Bosnia and Slovenia.  Thinking that Belgrade is too close to Turkey the Metropolitan of Belgrad, Moses (Petrovic) moved his seat to Temishora, where he was enthroned in 1721.  Upon the death of the Metropolitan of Karlovac Vikentije (Popovic) 1726, Moses was picked as metropolitan of Karlovci, with which practically began the unification of the Serbian Orthodox church inside Austrian territory.  Therefore, Metropolitan Moses (Petrovic) moved from Timoshora to the Metropolitan throne of Karlovci.  
Before the procession of hierarchical splitting of the Karlovach Metropolia in 1864, the Temishora diocese, as Serbian, stayed in the Karlovac Metropolis, with that it took on Romanian Church authority, but took Serbian church authority from the Aradska diocese.  From the measure of the tearing of competence of the Karlovach mitropolis, meaning its inclusion in the reestablishment of the Serbian Belgrade Patriarchate after the First World War, Temishora diocese became a part of the Serbian Orthodox Church"
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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2006, 11:01:45 PM »

You people better read this cuz it took a LOOONG time to translate   Tongue

And yes the end is paradoxical.  It says that the diocese accepted Romanian church authority, and yet it is still under the patriarchate of Serbia...figure that one out folks
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2006, 09:24:54 AM »

S1389,

    Your translation is much better than my original understanding.  Having said that, I think I understand it less now, then when I reviewed it on my own.

     How can they accept the Romanian Patriarch's authority but still be under the SOC?  If Patriarch Teoctist said "allright guys, close up shop and back to Serbia", would they obey?  Probably not.  So how is it that they accept the authority?  I'm still puzzled.
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2006, 11:00:02 AM »

Srpska posla brate.  

The problem is that there arn't any details.  I asked my Romanian friends here on campus and they had told me that there were authoritative problems in Romania with a bunch of different groups.  They also told me that this authoritative problem DID NOT exist with the Serbs.  However, according to this article, it DOES exist.  So I asked them to look into it.  As soon as I get an answer from them i'll let you know.  

The article doesn't say what "accepting authority means" and it doesn't specify what "being under the patriarchate of Serbia" means.  SO...that's where we're at.  No one knows..hahah
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2006, 11:36:44 AM »

Brate,

Thank you for looking into it, I'm very interested.
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2006, 10:43:37 PM »

SouthSerb,

you would be, you nasty lawyer.
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2009, 05:20:13 PM »

Just saw this in connection to the situation with the Vatican trying to get property in Romania.

I will say, I am somewhat suprised about this, as the Serbs are the only neighbors that the Romanians get along with (extremely so, my exwife from Bucharest was/is a rabid philoserb).  The Romanians in Serbia were the only ones that the Romanians never talked about that I heard when they spoke of Greater Romania and lost lands (Bucovina, Bessarabia, Southern Dobruja,etc.).  As it seems the good will between the Romanians and the Serbs (and their problems with the rest of their neighbors) has prevented this from becoming an issue.
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2009, 07:23:37 PM »

http://www.culte.ro/DocumenteHtml.aspx?id=1725

The Serbian Orthodox Church in Romania is an official cult recognized by the government of Romania. It is lead by a bishop appointed by the Serbian Orthodox Church.
I can tell you that most of the people who come to, at least Bezdin and Birda monasteries, are Romanian Orthodox who don't have any problems with the Serbs having churches in Romania.
As a side note, at Birda monastery, they have a piece of Saint George's skull and a chain of Saint Peter.
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