OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 02, 2014, 12:37:31 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The infamous MANUAL TO CONVERT ORTHODOX to Protestantism  (Read 59318 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2008, 11:05:15 PM »

David Young,

The poster known as "Seraphim Reeves" has not been active on this board for over hour years.

If you click on someone's name, their public profile will display, along with a few points of data.

Which is also why we generally don't resurrect half-decade old threads. Undecided

I'm glad he resurrected the thread.  I wasn't a member of the forum when this article was posted and I'm interested in what was said.  Further, David Young was not a member either, and his opinion is a valuable one and unique from those opinions previously heard (*read*) here. 

Quote
David Young,

The poster known as "Seraphim Reeves" has not been active on this board for over hour years.

If you click on someone's name, their public profile will display, along with a few points of data.

Personally, I don't think it matters that the person who posted what David Young quoted hasn't been active in a long time.  The point still stands. 


Quote
But from my experience, most "Orthodox" who convert to Evangelicalism have little knowledge and less practice of their family's or village's traditional faith: really, they are converting from no practised religion at all to an Evangelical faith. You and the Manual are, as it were, discussing matters at an almost scholarly level of knowledge - a debate between equally informed people. In day-to-day practice, both you and we (I write as an Evangelical) need to be bringing these non-religious people to appreciate and know Christ.

David, I think you make a good point about the fact that we're discussing the academic points of the faith, and not discussing on the level of those being converted. 
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,423


« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2008, 01:52:36 AM »

I'm glad he resurrected the thread.  I wasn't a member of the forum when this article was posted and I'm interested in what was said.  Further, David Young was not a member either, and his opinion is a valuable one and unique from those opinions previously heard (*read*) here. 



Quote
David Young,

The poster known as "Seraphim Reeves" has not been active on this board for over hour years.

If you click on someone's name, their public profile will display, along with a few points of data.


Quote
Personally, I don't think it matters that the person who posted what David Young quoted hasn't been active in a long time.  The point still stands.

Presvytera,

How does it not matter?  My point proves that his reading comprehension was absent or lacking there.  He didn't look at the age of the post or the profile of the poster.  It would be like me criticizing someone in John Kerry's team now - moot and irrelevant.  Well, not quite - just not even there.  Should I be mad at my neighbor who moved away four years ago?



Fixed quote tags - Ukiemeister
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 02:33:23 AM by Ukiemeister » Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2008, 04:27:57 PM »

 At least for me it is not as I come from an Evangelical background, though I now see the heresies of Protestantism and attend a Orthodox parish. THE big push in Evangelicalism is to convert people, to get them "saved". Of course, this is because many Evangelicals believe that if one says a "sinners prayer" and "accepts Jesus as one's personal Lord and Saviour", usually at a highly emotional revival service or "altar call" then one is saved forever. The funny thing is is that many Evangelicals almost cannot imagine one having faith in Christ without such an emotional coming to faith experience, and despite claiming to be "traditionalism",
or having "the old-time religion", fundamentalists and Evangelical conversion practices only go back to the 19th century and thus are not very "traditional" at all!
  The Southern Baptist and many Evangelicals like them also very much so believe in this once-saved-always-saved heresy. Thus, the main goal becomes getting a person "saved" since once they are "saved" they are sure to go to heaven, no matter how they live afterwards. Some even claim that if you say one must live a righteous life after coming to faith in Christ then this is "works-based" salvation!  Evangelicals thus often practice evangelizing people at the expense of many other important things in the christian life. At my old Evangelical church, they went to "seeker-sensitive" services, which is worship specifically geared towards bringing in non-christians and getting them "saved". It basically turned into entertainment for the crowd instead of glory to God, and this is one of the first things that turned me off to Evangelicalism. It allowed the world's expectations of entertainment and advice (pop music, flashy drama presentations, sermons based on pop psychology) to replace the Gospel. The Divine Liturgy, on the other hand is not entertainment, but is worship and glory to God in a way I have never seen before! It is truly awesome ( real shock and awe I guess:) ) !
   Anyway, the Evangelical view of salvation drives much of what they do and is the reason why much of their theology and spirituality is in the end so shallow and often very much influenced by American culture. Ironically, as far as missionary activity goes, many Evangelicals will even target fellow Protestants, and sheep-stealing among Protestants, especially from Protestants Evangelicals hold as suspect such as Lutherans and Anglicans is not unknown. I wouldn't really worry about this manual or Evangelical missionaries converting Orthodox people who really know their faith. And in America, with so many converts from Evangelicalism to Orthodoxy, even Baptist ministers (such as Clark Carlton) it seems the Orthodox Church should be well-prepared to deal with Evangelicals. I believe that even some bishops, such as Demetri of Dallas are former Baptist or Evangelical.
  I think the main problem is in Russia and Eastern Europe where Evangelicals can make flashy presentations and go after Orthodox people who really don't know their faith that well. It seems like the Orthodox Church here in American could help the church in Eastern Europe and Russia combat Evangelical missionaries by using the stories of Evangelicals who have converted to Orthodox here in the USA. The Orthodox in the old country should know that there are two sides to what the Evangelical missionaries are telling them! And as one person already said, Evangelicals and Protestants in general are not interested in Orthodox people "going by the Bible alone" but going by their spin on the Bible. Funny how the Bible alone talks about things such as being baptized for the forgiveness of sins and eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ. But Evangelicals, with their built in distrust of the sacraments ignore these verses, as they do verse on many other issues.
   Anyway, it would be good to see a response to this manual, but I think overall it should keep in mind the Orthodox abroad who its main target and try and help them out.

God bless,

P.S.

True, although I wouldn't use the word "evangelical" because Southern Baptists aren't the only evangelicals in town. You have alot of evangelicals that would disagree with O.S.A.S.

But in general, I do agree with you. What you said above is true.


The belief of O.S.A.S. (ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED) is one of the main doctrines that make the writter of the manual think that certain E.O. beliefs are wrong. I saw that when I was looking at the sections called "Understanding of Grace" and "Concept of Salvation".

Also sense I grew up Baptist.......I know that those who follow the tradition of Zwingly tend to have a hard time of seeing "the physical World" as being used as a "means of Grace" by God. So to the mind of a Baptist....if something "Physical" is seen as "transmitting God's Grace" to people........... then it's automaticaly seen as "WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS".

This type of attitude toward the "physical World" is also in the Manual.



Take care, and thank you for your insight. I'm in agreement with you.








JNORM888
« Last Edit: November 01, 2008, 04:33:23 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2008, 04:36:08 PM »

I agree with you, JNorm. My former denomination also had this definite,gnostic divide between the physical and the spiritual world.  Additionally, the "OSAS" theory was totally and stoutly rejected.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2008, 04:38:07 PM »

Part of the reason Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are so successful recruiting Americans, other than these non-Christian religions are homegrown and blend in well with Protestant religious culture, is that their door-to-door salesmen impress people by quoting lots and lot of chapter and verse from the Bible.

There's more to it than that. I've never been in a Mormon building (other than touring the Washington temple at its completion), but as part of a religion course in college I went to JW services for some months. It was curious. The service was superficially low Protestant, and in many respects the congregation embodied the social ideals of decades earlier-- patriarchs leading, respectful sons and daughters, people dressed for church, etc....... The feeling of community was quite intense, though to me there was something dried out about any actual religion. ALso, kingdon halls tend to be pretty small-- they are generally still at the level where everyone in the congrgation knows everyone else at least superficially.

The other issue isn't so much that their missionaries spout a lot of scripture. It's that most people aren't equipped to reply. I'm very well-prepared to deal with the JWs, and my wife is well-prepared to deal with the Mormons. We generally don't because we don't have the time it would take, never mind whether they would even heed us. And it's not bragging to say that we are exceptional people in this regard. I have a level of interest in theology that most people don't have and an education in theolog that most people don't have time for, never mind aptitude. Most people are ill-equipped to deal with someone who comes well-prepared, and have to resort to eiher "not interested" or sheer stubbornness. And most people are not as bull-headed as people in the computer industry tend to be.



True




JNORM888
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2008, 04:52:12 PM »

I'm glad he resurrected the thread.  I wasn't a member of the forum when this article was posted and I'm interested in what was said.  Further, David Young was not a member either, and his opinion is a valuable one and unique from those opinions previously heard (*read*) here. 



Quote
David Young,

The poster known as "Seraphim Reeves" has not been active on this board for over hour years.

If you click on someone's name, their public profile will display, along with a few points of data.


Quote
Personally, I don't think it matters that the person who posted what David Young quoted hasn't been active in a long time.  The point still stands.

Presvytera,

How does it not matter?  My point proves that his reading comprehension was absent or lacking there.  He didn't look at the age of the post or the profile of the poster.  It would be like me criticizing someone in John Kerry's team now - moot and irrelevant.  Well, not quite - just not even there.  Should I be mad at my neighbor who moved away four years ago?



Fixed quote tags - Ukiemeister

Lol.  I get your point.   laugh
I just meant that he made a good point, even though the poster is no longer with us.
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2008, 04:55:32 PM »

This is the journy of Father James Early.
http://iconnewmedianetwork.com/Channel/podcasts/journeys-to-orthodoxy/#

or

http://iconnewmedianetwork.com/Channel/podcasts/journeys-to-orthodoxy/

He has a blog. I don't know where it is at this time, but If someone is able to contact him. Then I'm sure he will be of great help in regards to this manual.

His blog: http://saintjameskids.blogspot.com/


Thanks!!!




JNORM888
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2008, 04:59:58 PM »

Archbishop Lazar responded to this "manual" on YouTube. An excellent series of vids...

Co-Sign!!!!






JNORM888
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,891



« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2008, 11:17:40 PM »

Having spent years in the Southern Baptist Church, and having had many significant encounters with God within its walls, I find this manual totally appalling.  The idea of trying to convert other Christians through manual tactics seems totally wrong to me.  It also seems bizarre considering the level of generally good understanding expressed throughout the manual; you would think that there would be more respect shown.

One thing that did stand out to me was the consistently pejorative use of the word "magic."
Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2008, 11:55:52 PM »

Hey at least this manual isn't a crazy rant. I'm used to seeing some crazy article where people put Orthodox in quotes. How many times have you seen some one write 'Eastern "Orthodox" Church' smugly as if they were the first to come up with the clever idea of putting it in quotes! It makes me cringe every time I see that.
Logged

signature
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 6,042



« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2008, 05:16:46 PM »

Having spent years in the Southern Baptist Church, and having had many significant encounters with God within its walls, I find this manual totally appalling.  The idea of trying to convert other Christians through manual tactics seems totally wrong to me.  It also seems bizarre considering the level of generally good understanding expressed throughout the manual; you would think that there would be more respect shown.

One thing that did stand out to me was the consistently pejorative use of the word "magic."

Yes, I find it appalling too.  Just as we would all find it appalling if there were manuals on how to convert Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, Hindus, Moslems to Orthodoxy just lieing around in our churches. 
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2008, 10:11:32 AM »

I recently bought (but have not yet begun to read) an Orthodox book designed specifically for the conversion of Evangelicals to Orthodoxy! Maybe we're all at it!  Smiley
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
GreekChef
Prez
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 884



« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2008, 08:34:19 PM »

I recently bought (but have not yet begun to read) an Orthodox book designed specifically for the conversion of Evangelicals to Orthodoxy! Maybe we're all at it!  Smiley

What book is that, David?  I didn't know one existed!  I'm intrigued... and yet disappointed at the same time...  I guess I should reserve judgement until I see the book.  Smiley
Logged

Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Matthew 18:5
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,423


« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2008, 09:09:39 PM »

I recently bought (but have not yet begun to read) an Orthodox book designed specifically for the conversion of Evangelicals to Orthodoxy! Maybe we're all at it!  Smiley

What book is that, David?  I didn't know one existed!  I'm intrigued... and yet disappointed at the same time...  I guess I should reserve judgement until I see the book.  Smiley

Maybe he's actually being a little facetious and referring to some apologetical work like Matthew Galatin's or Clark Carlton's.  I'm curious to know what book he's referring as well.
Logged
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2008, 07:05:33 AM »

What book is that?

I have to confess I forget! I swooped upon it in an ecumenical-type Christian bookshop, but I was with my wife, and as Christmas is coming and knowing what to buy for me is hard, she took it off to the till, paid, and has hidden it till 25th December! I shall try to let you all know the title and author when it reappears. I do recall that it was imported from America, not published in Britain - as are virtually all Orthodox books available over here.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2008, 07:57:02 AM »

I recently bought (but have not yet begun to read) an Orthodox book designed specifically for the conversion of Evangelicals to Orthodoxy! Maybe we're all at it!  Smiley

What book is that, David?  I didn't know one existed!  I'm intrigued... and yet disappointed at the same time...  I guess I should reserve judgement until I see the book.  Smiley

Maybe he's actually being a little facetious and referring to some apologetical work like Matthew Galatin's or Clark Carlton's.  I'm curious to know what book he's referring as well.

Maybe it was Clark Carltons "The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church"
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2008, 10:47:45 AM »

Maybe I am naive, but shouldn't we be more concerned with how we convert those lost to Christ in order to bring them to worship God ?

My spiritual journey has included finding true lovers of the Holy Spirit in tiny mountain congregational churches, Catholic churches, Orthodox churches and even outdoors!

Satan must find satisfaction feeling the angst of Christ's brothers and sisters stressing over which team the Father loves best.

I just listened to a mini sermon on Ancient Faith Radio that explained how all the faith experiences a Christian lives through are of full value to the Lord.  All of those need to be Chrismated with you when you become Orthodox.  Aren't all of us on the same path in a corrupt creation reaching towards an eternity of completion in Christ?
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2008, 02:17:42 PM »

What book is that?

The book is "West of Jesus: the Bible's answer to the Protestant departure from Orthodox belief" Regina Orthodox Press, Salisbury, MA, 2006.

I have not yet read it.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2008, 02:57:52 PM »

Maybe I am naive, but shouldn't we be more concerned with how we convert those lost to Christ in order to bring them to worship God ?

My spiritual journey has included finding true lovers of the Holy Spirit in tiny mountain congregational churches, Catholic churches, Orthodox churches and even outdoors!

Satan must find satisfaction feeling the angst of Christ's brothers and sisters stressing over which team the Father loves best.

Too busy enjoining, let's say, the Mormons going in the closet of their temples and thinking they are making themselves gods.  Yeah, that's bringing them closer to the living God.


"Which team the Father loves best."  Trite tangeant: the Father's love isn't the issue.  Knowing who He really is, is.

I've met very loving Muslims.  That dosn't make Islam the religion of peace.

Quote
]I just listened to a mini sermon on Ancient Faith Radio that explained how all the faith experiences a Christian lives through are of full value to the Lord.  All of those need to be Chrismated with you when you become Orthodox.  Aren't all of us on the same path in a corrupt creation reaching towards an eternity of completion in Christ?

Some of us are further along than others.

Some haven't gotten far, but are on a well trodd path so know where we are going.

And some are going in circles.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 02:58:16 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2008, 06:02:48 AM »


Too busy enjoining, let's say, the Mormons going in the closet of their temples and thinking they are making themselves gods.  Yeah, that's bringing them closer to the living God.

In fairness to Hening, I guess he was meaning (with a small o) orthodox trinitarian credal Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant. My guess is that he did not have any of the extraneous sects in mind. When he returns after Christmas, perhaps he will clarify his idea for us.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2008, 09:39:15 AM »

In fairness to Hening, I guess he was meaning (with a small o) orthodox trinitarian credal Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant.
Isn't that just moving the goal post to the lowest common denominator and calling it "orthodox"?
orthodox (small "o") Christian doctrine is more than just "Trinitarian", and even a "Trinitarian" creed needs to be specific to be orthodox. Modalism is a Trinitarian creed, but it is not orthodox.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 09:40:26 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
prodromas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Under the Green Pope
Posts: 1,239

Greek Orthodox


« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2008, 10:19:29 AM »

In fairness to Hening, I guess he was meaning (with a small o) orthodox trinitarian credal Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant.
Isn't that just moving the goal post to the lowest common denominator and calling it "orthodox"?
orthodox (small "o") Christian doctrine is more than just "Trinitarian", and even a "Trinitarian" creed needs to be specific to be orthodox. Modalism is a Trinitarian creed, but it is not orthodox.

So is mormonism, and they are far from orthodox.
Logged

The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2008, 04:27:34 PM »


Too busy enjoining, let's say, the Mormons going in the closet of their temples and thinking they are making themselves gods.  Yeah, that's bringing them closer to the living God.

In fairness to Hening, I guess he was meaning (with a small o) orthodox trinitarian credal Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant. My guess is that he did not have any of the extraneous sects in mind. When he returns after Christmas, perhaps he will clarify his idea for us.

I get concerned when Mormons and Muslims get tossed into a discussion discerning Christians.  Mormons are not Christians, and Muslims use Jesus Christ to prop up Mohammad.  Both are cults based on one person's false testimony, and mention an association with Christ to confuse those who consider themselves loyal to Him (Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Who the Father loves best is a phrase related to surfing the paradigm of who knows God best.  I've met those that have never been anywhere near an Orthodox church due to none being available for over a hundred miles, who had more faith, trust and vision of the Lord than my sinful life has yet to reveal.  One was an elderly woman, member of a mountain congregational church in rural Maine that surrendered her life to Christ in total peace and spiritual beauty.  She had been baptized, lived a NT life, took Communion as a memorial and pointed others to Christ (not the one who is the brother of Satan, or the one that wasn't crucified).

Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2008, 04:39:25 PM »


Too busy enjoining, let's say, the Mormons going in the closet of their temples and thinking they are making themselves gods.  Yeah, that's bringing them closer to the living God.

In fairness to Hening, I guess he was meaning (with a small o) orthodox trinitarian credal Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant. My guess is that he did not have any of the extraneous sects in mind. When he returns after Christmas, perhaps he will clarify his idea for us.

I get concerned when Mormons and Muslims get tossed into a discussion discerning Christians.  Mormons are not Christians, and Muslims use Jesus Christ to prop up Mohammad.  Both are cults based on one person's false testimony, and mention an association with Christ to confuse those who consider themselves loyal to Him (Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Well, your ending of your paragraph points out the problem with its beginning: there are a number of those who are Christians who toss their lot in with the Mormons and Muslims.  The Mormons and Muslims will both tell you that they teach what Christ really said.  Like the Vatican and the myriad of Protestants each do.

Quote
Who the Father loves best is a phrase related to surfing the paradigm of who knows God best.  I've met those that have never been anywhere near an Orthodox church due to none being available for over a hundred miles, who had more faith, trust and vision of the Lord than my sinful life has yet to reveal.  One was an elderly woman, member of a mountain congregational church in rural Maine that surrendered her life to Christ in total peace and spiritual beauty.  She had been baptized, lived a NT life, took Communion as a memorial and pointed others to Christ (not the one who is the brother of Satan, or the one that wasn't crucified).

You are trying to make orange juice out of apples.  Never being exposed to the Orthodox Church is one thing, rejecting it is quite another.  Is your mountain woman better off then the Muslim or Mormon?  I would say yes.  Would she be better off if she found the Orthodox Church.  Yes again.


Btw, our priest in the sermon Sunday pointed out that when St. Paul admonishes the Galatians about another Gospel, he doesn't say that that other Gospel is teaching them immorality (as he warns the Corinthians): he is speaking about something good, keeping the law.  But that's not the Gospel.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 04:42:14 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,421



« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2008, 11:04:21 AM »

(Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Just to be clear, so that there is no confusion that there might be more then one case of this, the lady in question lives in the Seattle, Washington area.  She was *canonically* resident, that is she was still under the Bishop of Rhode Island though she had not lived there in many years and did not know the present Bishop. A transfer of canonical residency to the Seattle area could have been done, but for whatever reason was not.  She, therefore, was inhibited by +Rhode Island after the news broke, though the last I knew she still lives in the Pacific Northwest.

Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #70 on: December 31, 2008, 10:34:00 AM »

(Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Just to be clear, so that there is no confusion that there might be more then one case of this, the lady in question lives in the Seattle, Washington area.  She was *canonically* resident, that is she was still under the Bishop of Rhode Island though she had not lived there in many years and did not know the present Bishop. A transfer of canonical residency to the Seattle area could have been done, but for whatever reason was not.  She, therefore, was inhibited by +Rhode Island after the news broke, though the last I knew she still lives in the Pacific Northwest.



According to my source, she was in Rhode Island while they decide how to deal with this issue.  I have no information on here current whereabouts (and am not sure how relevant that might be), but she was placed under +Rhode Island's jurisdiction based on their female Bishop being more suitable since there were cries of of her Bishop on the west coast being male, and therefore unsuitable to understand the situation.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #71 on: December 31, 2008, 10:59:45 AM »


Too busy enjoining, let's say, the Mormons going in the closet of their temples and thinking they are making themselves gods.  Yeah, that's bringing them closer to the living God.

In fairness to Hening, I guess he was meaning (with a small o) orthodox trinitarian credal Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant. My guess is that he did not have any of the extraneous sects in mind. When he returns after Christmas, perhaps he will clarify his idea for us.

I get concerned when Mormons and Muslims get tossed into a discussion discerning Christians.  Mormons are not Christians, and Muslims use Jesus Christ to prop up Mohammad.  Both are cults based on one person's false testimony, and mention an association with Christ to confuse those who consider themselves loyal to Him (Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Well, your ending of your paragraph points out the problem with its beginning: there are a number of those who are Christians who toss their lot in with the Mormons and Muslims.  The Mormons and Muslims will both tell you that they teach what Christ really said.  Like the Vatican and the myriad of Protestants each do.

Quote
Who the Father loves best is a phrase related to surfing the paradigm of who knows God best.  I've met those that have never been anywhere near an Orthodox church due to none being available for over a hundred miles, who had more faith, trust and vision of the Lord than my sinful life has yet to reveal.  One was an elderly woman, member of a mountain congregational church in rural Maine that surrendered her life to Christ in total peace and spiritual beauty.  She had been baptized, lived a NT life, took Communion as a memorial and pointed others to Christ (not the one who is the brother of Satan, or the one that wasn't crucified).

You are trying to make orange juice out of apples.  Never being exposed to the Orthodox Church is one thing, rejecting it is quite another.  Is your mountain woman better off then the Muslim or Mormon?  I would say yes.  Would she be better off if she found the Orthodox Church.  Yes again.


Btw, our priest in the sermon Sunday pointed out that when St. Paul admonishes the Galatians about another Gospel, he doesn't say that that other Gospel is teaching them immorality (as he warns the Corinthians): he is speaking about something good, keeping the law.  But that's not the Gospel.


So what you are saying is that someone can live apart from the Orthodox Church, for example never having lived anywhere near one, and live their life in Christ, but when they are judged there could have been a better verdict if they also, somehow managed to be Orthodox?  You don't get a whiff of Pharisee in that?

You can't throw in with Mormons or Muslims and remain Christian.  You will find in the Creed a number of examples where that is illustrated.  Neither cult believes, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again".  Sorry, but that's a rich, delicious vanilla milk shake, with no trace of imitation fruity flavor.  The Mormons think that Joseph Smith will come again, and Islam is waiting for Mohammad.  That would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.  The Mormons only included the name of the Lord in their title after their cult started losing numbers.

I'm confused regarding your statement about Paul, but how is the Gospel not related to keeping the Law? Christ fulfills the law in the Gospel.  Take a read of Matthew 5:17.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,421



« Reply #72 on: December 31, 2008, 11:02:46 AM »

(Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Just to be clear, so that there is no confusion that there might be more then one case of this, the lady in question lives in the Seattle, Washington area.  She was *canonically* resident, that is she was still under the Bishop of Rhode Island though she had not lived there in many years and did not know the present Bishop. A transfer of canonical residency to the Seattle area could have been done, but for whatever reason was not.  She, therefore, was inhibited by +Rhode Island after the news broke, though the last I knew she still lives in the Pacific Northwest.

According to my source, she was in Rhode Island while they decide how to deal with this issue.  I have no information on here current whereabouts (and am not sure how relevant that might be), but she was placed under +Rhode Island's jurisdiction based on their female Bishop being more suitable since there were cries of of her Bishop on the west coast being male, and therefore unsuitable to understand the situation.

I'm sorry, but your source is in error.  The lady in question, Ann Holmes Redding was ordained many years ago in the diocese of Rhode Island and therefore was *canonically* resident there though she had moved to the Pacific northwest; she has not lived in New England for quite some time..  She had a position at the local cathedral about 2 years ago, but was let go with some others for budgetary reasons, from what I have read.  She had never transferred her canonical residence to the diocese of Olympia, so when this story became known, the current +Rhode Island was her bishop for disciplinary actions.  

I followed the story both in the news and in the blog-o-sphere and saw no 'cries' against the Bishop of Olympia because he was male.  Do you recall what/who your source was for this mistaken information, please?  +Rhode Island, who had never met the lady previously since she had not lived there for some time, met with her and afterwards inhibited her, that is forbade any liturgical functions and required her to consider what she really believed.  The last I knew she was still under the ban.

There was no case of being 'placed' under a different bishop. That's not the way it works in the Anglican Churches.  A priest is canonically resident and therefore under the bishop of a diocese that sponsored the ordination, no matter where he/she lives until they get a "Letter Dimissory" from their bishop to the one in another diocese recommended him/her to the new prelate.  

It's important to have the truth even in cases with which one may disagree. I hope this clears up any confusion.
  
Ebor

« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 11:04:30 AM by Ebor » Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2008, 01:04:25 PM »

(Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Just to be clear, so that there is no confusion that there might be more then one case of this, the lady in question lives in the Seattle, Washington area.  She was *canonically* resident, that is she was still under the Bishop of Rhode Island though she had not lived there in many years and did not know the present Bishop. A transfer of canonical residency to the Seattle area could have been done, but for whatever reason was not.  She, therefore, was inhibited by +Rhode Island after the news broke, though the last I knew she still lives in the Pacific Northwest.

According to my source, she was in Rhode Island while they decide how to deal with this issue.  I have no information on here current whereabouts (and am not sure how relevant that might be), but she was placed under +Rhode Island's jurisdiction based on their female Bishop being more suitable since there were cries of of her Bishop on the west coast being male, and therefore unsuitable to understand the situation.

I'm sorry, but your source is in error.  The lady in question, Ann Holmes Redding was ordained many years ago in the diocese of Rhode Island and therefore was *canonically* resident there though she had moved to the Pacific northwest; she has not lived in New England for quite some time..  She had a position at the local cathedral about 2 years ago, but was let go with some others for budgetary reasons, from what I have read.  She had never transferred her canonical residence to the diocese of Olympia, so when this story became known, the current +Rhode Island was her bishop for disciplinary actions.  

I followed the story both in the news and in the blog-o-sphere and saw no 'cries' against the Bishop of Olympia because he was male.  Do you recall what/who your source was for this mistaken information, please?  +Rhode Island, who had never met the lady previously since she had not lived there for some time, met with her and afterwards inhibited her, that is forbade any liturgical functions and required her to consider what she really believed.  The last I knew she was still under the ban.

There was no case of being 'placed' under a different bishop. That's not the way it works in the Anglican Churches.  A priest is canonically resident and therefore under the bishop of a diocese that sponsored the ordination, no matter where he/she lives until they get a "Letter Dimissory" from their bishop to the one in another diocese recommended him/her to the new prelate.  

It's important to have the truth even in cases with which one may disagree. I hope this clears up any confusion.
  
Ebor



Someone affiliated with Bishop Wolf met with a number of us involved with ministry in Massachusetts to pass along information regarding this situation after it went national.  The Rhode Island Bishop was given disciplinary authority over this situation, which is what I refer to as being placed "under".  My understanding was that the interview and exchange between Holmes and Bishop Wolf was in person.  Bishop Rickel initially floundered over the announcement, and there was an air of feminist finger pointing (this came from the individual speaking to us in Massachusetts), that though he was not reacting in a leadership fashion to the mess at St. Mark's, that Bishop Wolf was more than qualified to deal with this situation.  I have never had the pleasure of meeting Bishop Wolf, but have heard nothing but praise for her from church members in Rhode Island (where Holmes was reportedly ordained, and +Wolf was not the bishop at the time).

That aside, my original point is the key focus......that you can't chuck in musings by Mormons and Muslims to make a point regarding the Church.  The complete mess that is the Episcopal Church is possibly the subject for another thread. 
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,418



« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2008, 02:08:52 PM »

Not to put too fine a point on it, but whoever informed you just didn't have their facts straight, or you misunderstood. Redding burst upon the scene in a Seattle Times article in July 2007, but it was several weeks later that it came out that she was actually canonically resident in RI. You can see Bp. Wolf's e-mail here. She was not moved from one diocese to the other on any basis at all; Wolf inherited her as the diocesan of RI because the steps needed to make Redding resident in a different diocese had never been carried out.

Ordinarily what will happen when a priest moves from a position in one diocese to a position in a different diocese is that the sending bishop issues letters dimissory, which allows the transfer, and the receiving bishop issues a transfer letter, which affects it. For a parochial position it's obligatory to do so. Since Redding was not taking such a position, however, the irregularity of not issuing such a letter was (legitimately) let slide. Essentially she was being loaned to the other diocese indefinitely. To exercise her office, however, she had to be licensed in Seattle; but revoking that license was the limit of that bishop's authority. (This is all in Canon III.9.4-6, btw.) She could only be inhibited in RI, although now that she is inhibited there, if she tries to go anywhere else they can summarily inhibit her. (IV.7.1-2)

As far as the outcome, we got lucky. Geralyn Wolf is one of the most uniformly respected bishops in the church, especially noted for her sensitive treatment of parishes that wanted to leave. I think her handling of the matter has bee exemplary. But she wasn't specially picked to deal with this; it fell into her jurisdiction by happenstance.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #75 on: December 31, 2008, 02:16:38 PM »


Too busy enjoining, let's say, the Mormons going in the closet of their temples and thinking they are making themselves gods.  Yeah, that's bringing them closer to the living God.

In fairness to Hening, I guess he was meaning (with a small o) orthodox trinitarian credal Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic or Protestant. My guess is that he did not have any of the extraneous sects in mind. When he returns after Christmas, perhaps he will clarify his idea for us.

I get concerned when Mormons and Muslims get tossed into a discussion discerning Christians.  Mormons are not Christians, and Muslims use Jesus Christ to prop up Mohammad.  Both are cults based on one person's false testimony, and mention an association with Christ to confuse those who consider themselves loyal to Him (Like the Episcopalian priest in Rhode Island that believes she's a Christian and a Muslim).

Well, your ending of your paragraph points out the problem with its beginning: there are a number of those who are Christians who toss their lot in with the Mormons and Muslims.  The Mormons and Muslims will both tell you that they teach what Christ really said.  Like the Vatican and the myriad of Protestants each do.

Quote
Who the Father loves best is a phrase related to surfing the paradigm of who knows God best.  I've met those that have never been anywhere near an Orthodox church due to none being available for over a hundred miles, who had more faith, trust and vision of the Lord than my sinful life has yet to reveal.  One was an elderly woman, member of a mountain congregational church in rural Maine that surrendered her life to Christ in total peace and spiritual beauty.  She had been baptized, lived a NT life, took Communion as a memorial and pointed others to Christ (not the one who is the brother of Satan, or the one that wasn't crucified).

You are trying to make orange juice out of apples.  Never being exposed to the Orthodox Church is one thing, rejecting it is quite another.  Is your mountain woman better off then the Muslim or Mormon?  I would say yes.  Would she be better off if she found the Orthodox Church.  Yes again.


Btw, our priest in the sermon Sunday pointed out that when St. Paul admonishes the Galatians about another Gospel, he doesn't say that that other Gospel is teaching them immorality (as he warns the Corinthians): he is speaking about something good, keeping the law.  But that's not the Gospel.


So what you are saying is that someone can live apart from the Orthodox Church, for example never having lived anywhere near one, and live their life in Christ, but when they are judged there could have been a better verdict if they also, somehow managed to be Orthodox?  You don't get a whiff of Pharisee in that?

Only this: Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

You seem rather fixed on talking about those who have never heard the Good News of the Orthodox Church to those who have, and therefore your example does not apply.

Quote
You can't throw in with Mormons or Muslims and remain Christian.  


So the Orthodox say.  But what do we know?

Quote
You will find in the Creed a number of examples where that is illustrated.  Neither cult believes, "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again".  Sorry, but that's a rich, delicious vanilla milk shake, with no trace of imitation fruity flavor.  The Mormons think that Joseph Smith will come again, and Islam is waiting for Mohammad.


Actually no, they are not.  Most of them are awaiting Christ. Yeah, ironic, isn't it?

Quote
That would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.  The Mormons only included the name of the Lord in their title after their cult started losing numbers.

Again, you can (and I have) go to a Protestant where Jesus is mentioned in passing, if at all.

If you insist on the lowest common denominator, the Protestants can go quite low.

Quote
I'm confused regarding your statement about Paul, but how is the Gospel not related to keeping the Law? Christ fulfills the law in the Gospel.  Take a read of Matthew 5:17.

Read Hebrews.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 02:17:29 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #76 on: December 31, 2008, 04:43:25 PM »

Forgive me for not going through the agony of quote setting.

Do you know I am Orthodox?  I'm guessing that you are talking down to me and insulting Protestant churches because you think I Protestant?

Mormons that are waiting for Christ are being duped by the true belief of their own religion, which is real irony.  I am happy to list some books on witnessing to Mormons if you are interested to find out what true temple elders believe, and how to bring the "Good News" to them.

Orthodoxy needs to be brought to those that are outside of the Church.  Orthodoxy is beauty, truth and light that needs to get out to the reaches of the world.  Instead of medieval concepts of 'them or us', "they" need to see what true Orthodoxy is and not be told that they are all simply lost since they don't have it.

Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #77 on: December 31, 2008, 07:17:45 PM »

Forgive me for not going through the agony of quote setting.

Not a problem.  It's a pain.

Quote
Do you know I am Orthodox?  I'm guessing that you are talking down to me and insulting Protestant churches because you think I Protestant?

No, I seem to remember you trotting out your Orthodox credentials somewhere.  I'll take your word on it.

Quote
Mormons that are waiting for Christ are being duped by the true belief of their own religion, which is real irony.  I am happy to list some books on witnessing to Mormons if you are interested to find out what true temple elders believe, and how to bring the "Good News" to them.

What are "true temple elders?"  I shudder to think how it can be any stranger.

Quote
Orthodoxy needs to be brought to those that are outside of the Church.  Orthodoxy is beauty, truth and light that needs to get out to the reaches of the world.  Instead of medieval concepts of 'them or us', "they" need to see what true Orthodoxy is and not be told that they are all simply lost since they don't have it.

And who said that when?


[/quote]
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #78 on: December 31, 2008, 07:53:08 PM »

What are "true temple elders?"  I shudder to think how it can be any stranger.

The Mormon cult is based on the Freemasons.  There is special knowledge you acquire as you move up the ladder.  The ultimate goal is to become a god.  You move on after death and continue to gain god points.  This is why they think they can bring people into the Mormon faith after death, and they have a collection of all those names and genealogies.  I know that there are Mormons who think they are exactly the same as Christians, yet Christ also came to America and spread the rest of His Gospel to the natives.  The whole thing about Jesus and Satan being brothers and god (like as in God) was once a man, who earned tons of god points.

Quote
Orthodoxy needs to be brought to those that are outside of the Church.  Orthodoxy is beauty, truth and light that needs to get out to the reaches of the world.  Instead of medieval concepts of 'them or us', "they" need to see what true Orthodoxy is and not be told that they are all simply lost since they don't have it.

And who said that when?



Who said which when?

Orthodoxy needs to be brought to others......."me"

All so-called Christians outside of the Faith are heretics and we should revel in our Orthodox salvation while dancing the dance of their damnation......"Several posters" (the dance part is mine).



Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2008, 08:02:29 PM »

What are "true temple elders?"  I shudder to think how it can be any stranger.

The Mormon cult is based on the Freemasons.  There is special knowledge you acquire as you move up the ladder.  The ultimate goal is to become a god.  You move on after death and continue to gain god points.  This is why they think they can bring people into the Mormon faith after death, and they have a collection of all those names and genealogies.  I know that there are Mormons who think they are exactly the same as Christians, yet Christ also came to America and spread the rest of His Gospel to the natives.  The whole thing about Jesus and Satan being brothers and god (like as in God) was once a man, who earned tons of god points.

Quote
Orthodoxy needs to be brought to those that are outside of the Church.  Orthodoxy is beauty, truth and light that needs to get out to the reaches of the world.  Instead of medieval concepts of 'them or us', "they" need to see what true Orthodoxy is and not be told that they are all simply lost since they don't have it.

And who said that when?



Who said which when?

Orthodoxy needs to be brought to others......."me"

All so-called Christians outside of the Faith are heretics and we should revel in our Orthodox salvation while dancing the dance of their damnation......"Several posters" (the dance part is mine).

Now you are going to have to get the quotation feature right, because I haven't seen those "several posters."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Hening
Fr Deacon Michael Heningham
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 104



WWW
« Reply #80 on: December 31, 2008, 08:09:53 PM »

What are "true temple elders?"  I shudder to think how it can be any stranger.

The Mormon cult is based on the Freemasons.  There is special knowledge you acquire as you move up the ladder.  The ultimate goal is to become a god.  You move on after death and continue to gain god points.  This is why they think they can bring people into the Mormon faith after death, and they have a collection of all those names and genealogies.  I know that there are Mormons who think they are exactly the same as Christians, yet Christ also came to America and spread the rest of His Gospel to the natives.  The whole thing about Jesus and Satan being brothers and god (like as in God) was once a man, who earned tons of god points.

Quote
Orthodoxy needs to be brought to those that are outside of the Church.  Orthodoxy is beauty, truth and light that needs to get out to the reaches of the world.  Instead of medieval concepts of 'them or us', "they" need to see what true Orthodoxy is and not be told that they are all simply lost since they don't have it.

And who said that when?



Who said which when?

Orthodoxy needs to be brought to others......."me"

All so-called Christians outside of the Faith are heretics and we should revel in our Orthodox salvation while dancing the dance of their damnation......"Several posters" (the dance part is mine).

Now you are going to have to get the quotation feature right, because I haven't seen those "several posters."

My Mormon reply wound up in the last quote........and it was pretty good.

I'm going to have to go with the fact that after being called a heretic myself, there is an odd sense of superiority that permeates some of the posts.  Forgive me for not going back and finding other examples, but it's been a long day.  I'll make sure to keep my eye out and send them along in the future.
Logged

Associate Pastor, Emmanuel Orthodox Church
Warren, MA, USA
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2009, 05:11:00 AM »

I confess this post has nothing to do with the "infamous manual", but it does relate to Protestant evangelising of Orthodox.

I know only about Albanians, but whilst in Albania a couple of weeks ago I had the privilege of spending 1½ hours with a man who is fairly deep in the Orthodox movement in that land. He told me that there are a lot of people who have come to faith in Christ throuigh evangelism done by Protestants in Albania, but whose families were Orthodox before the 1967 declaration of an atheist state and the closing of all remaining religious buildings. These people were therefore non-churchgoers, but aware of an Orthodox heritage in the past, forty or even sixty years ago. Therefore, having been brought to faith by Evangelicals, they have chosen to worship in Orthodox churches. (Others, of course, have stayed in Evangelical circles.)

This does, I think, throw a new or different light on our activities (writing as an Evangelical) among nominally Orthodox people. Of course, we don't target nominal Orthodox, we aim to make Christ known to people of any background. It is said that former Moslems tend to make more consistent Evangelicals than former Orthodox!

Personally, if a non-churchgoer is brought to real faith in Christ through our activities, and decides to worship in an Orthodox rather than an Evangelical church, my rejoicing is in that person's faith and union with Christ, not in his chosen affiliation. I hope to be like Barnabas, of whom it is somewhere written that "when he saw the grace of God, he was glad."
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 05:11:47 AM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Dismas84
Struggling
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Posts: 35



WWW
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2009, 12:07:33 AM »

Personally, if a non-churchgoer is brought to real faith in Christ through our activities, and decides to worship in an Orthodox rather than an Evangelical church, my rejoicing is in that person's faith and union with Christ, not in his chosen affiliation. I hope to be like Barnabas, of whom it is somewhere written that "when he saw the grace of God, he was glad."

I fully agree.  Grin

Although...documents such as this do scare me...mainly because it confirms to me what I already knew, which was that there are people out there who do not consider Orthodox Christians and hope to lead them away from the Church. I recently read stuff by Dave Hunt where he couldn't understand why Orthodox got so upset at Evangelicals trying to convert Orthodox to their beliefs, whereas I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot he'd be in an uproar.
Logged

"It is truly difficult for me to say who has done me more good and who has done me more evil in the world: friends or enemies."
-- Saint Nikolai Velimirovic

The blog of an Orthodox convert
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2009, 01:25:22 PM »

there who do not consider Orthodox Christians and hope to lead them away from the Church. I recently read stuff by Dave Hunt where he couldn't understand why Orthodox got so upset at Evangelicals trying to convert Orthodox to their beliefs, whereas I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot he'd be in an uproar.

I don't know who Dave Hunt is. Nevertheless:

I used to be one who did not reckon that Orthodox were Christians (perhaps with a few exceptions here and there due to God's grace). If a chap thinks like that, he is naturally going to be concerned to wean people away from Orthodoxy and bring them into his own circles. He'd be heartless if he didn't, in fact, because it would mean that his attitude was, "They're nearly all on their way to perdition, but I'm not bothered about them."

The shoe, of course, often is on the other foot, and for similar reasons. You believe your faith is the truth and ours is astray, and maybe not even within the rim of God's grace, so, in kindness for us, you wish to bring us into Orthodoxy.

There are two different matters here being entangled, which should be unravelled. There are people with the label "Baptist" or "Orthodox" who have no more repentance and faith in their souls than a garden gnome has. It is entirely right to seek to regard them as not-Christian and to draw them to Christ and to one's church.

On the other hand, there are devout Baptists and Orthodox, who can and do have friendly and respectful discussions about their beliefs. Sometimes conversions result, in either direction. I do not think that is wrong. It can be done - and is done - in a spirit of courteousy, not with a view to making a non-Christian into a Christian, but to clarifying or straightening out the beliefs of one who is already seen as a brother or sister in Christ.
Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,953


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2009, 01:40:15 PM »

Yeah.. I don't know. Forgive my ill temper today but this sounds like we are expected to rejoice that they are at least heretics rather than nothing at all. Could we rejoice if they became Arians? "..Would we say : "At least they are Arians" ?

Sorry for any offense.. I'm a crabby old man.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
David Young
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Baptist
Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham, Wales
Posts: 1,836


2012, Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr


« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2009, 05:12:25 PM »

they are at least heretics rather than nothing at all. ... I'm a crabby old man.

Dear "Crabby Old Man",

But are we all heretics? This has of course been discussed at great length on various threads, and I think we concluded that the only word we disagree over in the interpretation of in the Nicene Creed - that ancient symbol of orthodox and Orthodox faith - is the preposition 'eis'. Are we heretics for a preposition? Will Peter question us at the Pearly Gates on the meaning of 'eis'?

Be blessed,
DMY
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 05:13:11 PM by David Young » Logged

"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 12,953


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2009, 05:22:29 PM »

they are at least heretics rather than nothing at all. ... I'm a crabby old man.

Dear "Crabby Old Man",

But are we all heretics? This has of course been discussed at great length on various threads, and I think we concluded that the only word we disagree over in the interpretation of in the Nicene Creed - that ancient symbol of orthodox and Orthodox faith - is the preposition 'eis'. Are we heretics for a preposition? Will Peter question us at the Pearly Gates on the meaning of 'eis'?

Be blessed,
DMY


By in large Protestantism has reintroduced every heresy the Church has ever seen and invented some new ones. So if someone converts to one of their sects it may be worse for them then if they were simply left in peace.
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2009, 05:32:14 PM »

Sometimes conversions result, in either direction. I do not think that is wrong. It can be done - and is done - in a spirit of courteousy, not with a view to making a non-Christian into a Christian, but to clarifying or straightening out the beliefs of one who is already seen as a brother or sister in Christ.

If party "A" is "clarifying or straightening out the beliefs" of party "B" it is because one party is wrong and the other is right. Therefore, there must be an ultimate truth, and party "B"'s beliefs are false.

The Orthodox Church believes that she is the One, True, Holy, Apostolic Faith. We believe our beliefs are correct. Therefore, we are going to be upset when outsiders intentionally try to "steal sheep."

Having spent enough time in a Baptist Church, having been told by a Baptist minister that the Orthodox beliefs are wrong and could send me to hell, I know that there are Baptist preachers and believers out there who believe that they hold the truth, and the Orthodox do not.

Let us not pretend that there is no ultimate truth. This is more about "eis" in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed and you know it. If that were the case, you would have no problem converting to Orthodoxy.

The fact of the matter is that while you may have come to see us as people who share Christian beliefs, you do not believe all of our beliefs are correct. I don't see the Evangelicals who are going into traditionally Orthodox countries and evangelizing to the people as doing anyone a favor; I see that they are leading God's children astray from the ultimate truth which is Orthodoxy. You say that they minister to those who have no faith in Christ, or are Muslim, or not pious Orthodox, and bring them some form of Christian understanding.

Bologna!

If they were so interested in preserving the faith of the country, they would help bolster the existing Orthodox churches in said country, assist them in evangelizing the Orthodox faith, instead of imparting their own Protestant views. I don't want people to just know the truth of Christ; I want them to know the truth of Christ AND HIS CHURCH. That is, the Orthodox Church.

While I will not stand in judgment of who is going to heaven or hell (that responsibility belongs to God and God alone!), there is an ultimate truth out there. To deny it is foolish.
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
GammaRay
The Awful Preacher
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


Alexandros Papadiamantis


« Reply #88 on: June 25, 2009, 05:54:38 PM »

This manual is so ridiculous. As for the Fall, there is limitless proof in the Scriptures, fully supporting the Orthodox views.
I don't want to be arrogant, but while I was taking a look out our differences, I felt that Orthodoxy is way more superior and truer than Protestantism.

Better not talk about sola Scriptura being a heretic doctrine, because you automatically rule out any other possibly God-sent words.

If there's one thing we have to give a response, that's the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB). All of their responses were from Protestants with weak theology.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 05:55:58 PM by GammaRay » Logged

Though I've walked the valley of the shadow of the death, I've fallen not. Not completely. Not yet.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,833



« Reply #89 on: June 25, 2009, 05:57:24 PM »

they are at least heretics rather than nothing at all. ... I'm a crabby old man.

Dear "Crabby Old Man",

But are we all heretics? This has of course been discussed at great length on various threads, and I think we concluded that the only word we disagree over in the interpretation of in the Nicene Creed - that ancient symbol of orthodox and Orthodox faith - is the preposition 'eis'. Are we heretics for a preposition? Will Peter question us at the Pearly Gates on the meaning of 'eis'?

Be blessed,
DMY


By in large Protestantism has reintroduced every heresy the Church has ever seen and invented some new ones. So if someone converts to one of their sects it may be worse for them then if they were simply left in peace.

Dear Crabby--I am shocked that you would say such a thing. Surely a quarter, half or three-quarters of a glass are not as good as a full glass. But, you seem to be saying a full glass or nothing!
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Tags: Protestant Christianity 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.177 seconds with 72 queries.