OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 29, 2014, 10:23:35 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Mark 14:24  (Read 960 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
TimothyJ
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« on: February 24, 2006, 11:31:18 PM »

Is the belief expressed below common Orthodox belief?  That is, do the Orthodox believe that saying Christ said He would shed His blood "for many" is "woodenly literal", while saying He said He would shed his blood "for all" better conveys His meaning?

Elsewhere on OrthodoxChristianity.net, I read:
(http://orthodoxchristianity.net/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=32&topic=2332.15)
Quote
Quote
Traditional translations render: FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING TESTAMENT: THE MYSTERY OF FAITH: WHICH SHALL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

The Liturgy of Paul VI renders the same text: FOR YOU AND FOR ALL UNTO THE REMISSION OF SINS.

     Essentially, 'many' is a woodenly literal translation of what Christ said in the words of institution as recorded in Mark.  However, the Greek word 'polloi' or 'many', as your initial post pointed out, is used by St. Paul frequently to mean 'all', because it is being used (as it was in the Septuagint) to overlay/translate a Hebrew/Aramaic word that has the connotation of all.  So, the first liturgical sample is translating woodenly literally from the Greek.  The second is translating for meaning.
    The Tridentine explanation is a pretty classic example of late-Medieval rationalizing after the fact, because the discipline of philology was just then being revived by the Humanists and the real reasoning behind the word had been lost.
Logged
Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288

γνῶθισε αυτόν


« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2006, 11:39:05 PM »

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot,

Please pardon my ignorance, but I honestly don't see a difference between saying "for many" or "for all".  We believe that Christ shed His blood for all, but not everyone will believe or accept His sacrifice.  Therefore, "for many", it (i.e. His Blood) will save them.  

Please pray for me.
Logged

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
Cephas
There is no spoon.
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic Orthodox
Jurisdiction: See of St. Mark
Posts: 288

γνῶθισε αυτόν


« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2006, 11:41:36 PM »

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot,

Just an additional note...  I just opened my Orthodox Study Bible, and according to it:

14:24  For many is the Semitic way of saying for all, for an innumerable people (see Matthew 26:28).

Prayers please.
Logged

Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
TimothyJ
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2006, 12:00:48 AM »

Thank you for answering my question - it was not the answer I was expecting!  I will certainly say a prayer for you.  Please say a prayer for me.
Logged
Philokalia
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Posts: 173


Hail Mary Full of Grace


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2006, 05:52:26 PM »

Looking at the Catholic Study Bible I see

 24
    He said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark14.htm#foot8

8 [24] Which will be shed: see the note on Matthew 26:27-28. For many: the Greek preposition hyper is a different one from that at Matthew 26:28 but the same as that found at Luke 22:19, 20 and 1 Cor 11:24. The sense of both words is vicarious, and it is difficult in Hellenistic Greek to distinguish between them. For many in the sense of "all," see the note on Matthew 20:28.

And Matthew 20:28 goes  
28
    Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom  for many."

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew20.htm#foot11

11 [28] Ransom: this noun, which occurs in the New Testament only here and in the Marcan parallel (Matthew 10:45), does not necessarily express the idea of liberation by payment of some price. The cognate verb is used frequently in the LXX of God's liberating Israel from Egypt or from Babylonia after the Exile; see Exodus 6:6; 15:13; Psalm 77:16 (76 LXX); Isaiah 43:1; 44:22. The liberation brought by Jesus' death will be for many; cf Isaiah 53:12. Many does not mean that some are excluded, but is a Semitism designating the collectivity who benefit from the service of the one, and is equivalent to "all." While there are few verbal contacts between this saying and the fourth Servant Song (Isaiah 52:13-53:12), the ideas of that passage are reflected here.


Logged

Violence is a lie, for it goes against the truth of our faith, the truth of our humanity. Violence destroys what it claims to defend: the dignity, the life, the freedom of human beings. Violence is a crime against humanity, for it destroys the very fabric of society.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.057 seconds with 32 queries.