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« Reply #180 on: May 29, 2006, 04:16:39 PM »

When a factory makes bullets it doesn't matter what material you feed to it, precious or otherwise it is still going to make bullets, i.e. things destructive. Feed clay to a holy-chalice-making factory and it's going to make holy things even out of clay.
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« Reply #181 on: May 29, 2006, 05:19:21 PM »

Pedro

I don't know if I can answer your question, other than saying that as of this moment I would say I'm more Deist than Orthodox.  I agree with Asteriktos, you make a strong argument, and I would say that the verse in scripture "God doesn't take pleasure in the death of the sinner" is completely and absolutly false.  Yet, I can't help see the contradiction in Christ's on teaching.  For example, the parable of the Good Shepard, the parable of the the vineworkers coming at the very last hour to work, and most espically the parable of the Prodical Son.  May I ask, then, what is your interpretation of these events? how do these OT events, as well as the Mosaic Law help you with ethical questions, espically with your relations to people?  Right now, I'd say I see God as the great clocksmith of the universe.  He has made his clock (the universe) and kind of sit's back and let's things unfold. 

shawn
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« Reply #182 on: May 29, 2006, 05:29:02 PM »

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Personally, I think that all the evil deeds performed in the name of God in the OT were the Jews simply using God as an excuse. No different from what has always been done. They were an evil nation.
I'm Jewish. I come from a line of an evil nation?

The Jewish issue with Orthodoxy is it has no understasnding from a Jewish perspective. The Early Fathers were Jewish, most of them, so why did they have to write about what most of them already knew? They already had an understanding of the "OT" which unfortunately most Orthodox today do not know. There was very little writings saved regarding interpretation of OT texts. Oddly the only ones who did any interpretation of the OT were not even Jews who really did not have the comprehension.

I must say this: Orthodoxy is extremely close to Temple Judaism. This is one of the many reasons I converted.

Quote
Not only that, but to me their arguments are completly sound, and in no way are a threat to an Orthodox understanding of Scripture.
Doing away with the OT is a sound argument and not a threat to Orthodoxy? Without the OT, the NT is a lie; none of the prophesies would have existed; we would have no record of the line of David to Christ; there would be no Ezekiel regarding Mary; we would be an empty shell of no tradition. What is so brutal about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Where is the cruelty? Name some and lets discuss it.

Christ is in our midst,
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« Reply #183 on: May 29, 2006, 05:43:19 PM »

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and I would say that the verse in scripture "God doesn't take pleasure in the death of the sinner" is completely and absolutly false.

Yet as the book of Jonah shows, repentance can change the course of events.  What was done in scripture serves as a warning to us - REPENT! 
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« Reply #184 on: May 29, 2006, 05:50:21 PM »

Because you are asking TomS for an answer, do not be surprised when the answer is heretical.

Brian, because you are new here, please let me warn you: it is wise to not base any decisions regarding Orthodox interpretation of Scripture or theology based on the posts of TomS or GiC.

Of course.  What I see here is people struggling with faith questions, as Christians should.  However, I do not consider this site authoritative on any issue of doctrine.  In reading through many discussions here, I have found some posts that are incredibly insightful and have led me to consider a deeper and richer view on certain questions of faith.  But like all internet boards, 90% of posts are lacking in real substance.  In the end, if I have a question as to whether a particular view expressed here is Orthodox or not, I will either research the issue from better sources, or I will simply ask.

Thank you for your concern Chris.

Peace.
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« Reply #185 on: May 29, 2006, 06:26:37 PM »

Brian,
This site has been a blessing to me for many moons:
Orthodox Christian Information Center

My previous reader at my church in CA is friends of the site operator there. He tells me good things and excellent sources about the site and its information center. So if you have any questions, I recommend it. It is a very good starting place.

Christos Anesti,
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« Reply #186 on: May 29, 2006, 06:31:03 PM »

Right now, I'd say I see God as the great clocksmith of the universe.  He has made his clock (the universe) and kind of sit's back and let's things unfold. 
Clocksmiths do not become Incarnated as one of their their clocks, nor voluntarily die in order to repair them.
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« Reply #187 on: May 29, 2006, 06:38:23 PM »

Brian,
This site has been a blessing to me for many moons:
Orthodox Christian Information Center

My previous reader at my church in CA is friends of the site operator there. He tells me good things and excellent sources about the site and its information center. So if you have any questions, I recommend it. It is a very good starting place.

Christos Anesti,
Panagiotis

Yes, that was one of the first sites I read from that got me more interested in understanding Orthodoxy.
Thank you.

Alethos Anesti,
Brian
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« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2006, 07:48:05 PM »

That was a couple of very good posts, demonstrating that...Jesus himself believed in and affirmed the horrible actions of the Old Testament "God" and "His people," and even promised greater wrath to those in his own time who would not prostrate their hearts before him. I argued a couple months ago that the New Testament God was a bit nicer, because he didn't do things like open the ground up and kill thousands, but was content killing mere handfuls... but you have proven me wrong, Pedro. The God of the New Testament is indeed just as bad as the God of the Old Testament.

I agree with Asteriktos, you make a strong argument, and I would say that the verse in scripture "God doesn't take pleasure in the death of the sinner" is completely and absolutly false...May I ask, then, what is your interpretation of these events? how do these OT events, as well as the Mosaic Law help you with ethical questions, espically with your relations to people?

Hey, guys,

Well, first, let me just say thanks for the compliments re: my argument being honest; if nothing else, I try my best to look at things holistically.  It's very much a part of Orthodox theology, as y'all know from your extensive past experiences in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, that God is not only a God of compassion and mercy towards mankind, but also of justice and wrath.  These categories however--"compassion and mercy" and "justice and wrath"--are primarily played out in mankind's perception of God's unchanging nature and will, instead of actual, separate "character traits" God objectively puts on at various times ("Great; now He's happy...$#!+; now He's pissed," etc.). 

Whether we like it or not in 21st Century western civilization, there is a God out there who is going to bring His will to pass, when all's said and done.  The two things I know will be abundantly clear to us on the Last Day are these:

  • The will of God is that we would come in line with His way of thinking (ie, repent) and be saved from our destructive selves.  This is what He wants us to do, and it is ultimately for our benefit, even though it feels like it really sucks to deny oneself, take up our cross and follow Him.  We do that, though, and we come out better for it.
  • The ultimate reckoning of His judgement--which will really just be Him revealing what we've already made of ourselves with the time we've been given--will be fair and just, with each person feeling the joy or torment his or her life has yielded upon coming into contact with pure righteousness.

So what was the fire and brimstone of Sodom?  Well, the perception in the OT (and in some of the NT!) was that it was God "getting pissed off" (that's mad, not drunk for my brethren across the ponds) at the insolence of those evil homosexuals et al and destroying them in the cruelest way possible.  What do we see that fire as in the light of Christ?  God's presence Himself--the same presence that filled Solomon's temple and was received with thanksgiving and glory.

So that's the more supernatural dealings in the OT--what about the flood and the armies of Israel?  A bit trickier for me, that's for sure, but the same principle applies.  God has a certain way He'd have us be and live; when a people group was not only defying that within themselves but also threatening those who were being obedient (at the time, anyways) and whom God had chosen to bring salvation to the souls of mankind, He executed His will, and those who were contrary to Him were struck down.

There is this aspect of God; one day we will stand before Him and He will show us what we are.  Insofar as we have allowed Him to change and guide us, we will be Solomon's temple.  Insofar as we have rebelled against Him in hatred towards Him and our neighbor, we will be Sodom.  Nothing will stop this, as it is the only way that the truth--about who God is, about what we have become in light of the time and the mercy that He has given us, though neither be infinite, temporally speaking--will finally prevail in the cosmos.  I do indeed lament that, at least intellectually, y'all can't reconcile yourselves to this.  I would actually ask for whatever prayers y'all may still give (I would understand if you don't, given your current stances on things), as well as those of anyone else reading this thread, since, though I may subscribe to this idea of unchanging divine revelation as the purgatory of judgement, my life (of course) does not reflect said attitude put into practice--I'm not prepared, iow.  God have mercy, for there is some Sodom yet in me.

Hope this has helped...
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« Reply #189 on: May 29, 2006, 07:52:48 PM »

OzGeorge

You're right.  However, the clocksmith doesn't need to become a "clock" since the clock (from a Deist POV) never needed repair.  If there was no Adam (and certainly there is little to no proof that there was the biblical Adam) and Eve, then there is no fall of man; no fall of man, the world doesn't need repair, and man doesn't need a Savior.  Thus, Jesus is a great teacher of ethical truths, but certainly not God incarnate.  Do I hold this view personally? I don't know at the moment to be honest.

Brian
Look at the opening post of this thread.  I point out a few times when God is "less than merciful."  If you keep reading through the thread, more will be pointed out.

Νεκτάριος, I agree that one must repent (or atleast, this is the moral of Jonah's story).  But if one chooses to live in sin, isn't that an expression of his/her freewill?  From a Biblical POV, I see that God's love is absolutely conditional ("you do this, you'll live.  you don't do this, you'll die).  But what of the Prodical Son?  The father in the story didn't know if his son would ever return; yet when is son finally did return he showed unconditional love towards his son.  The message to me seems a wee bit different than the God of destruction in the OT.

shawn



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« Reply #190 on: May 29, 2006, 08:10:10 PM »

Pedro

Personally there are many a thing I can't understand from scripture, or even patristics (espically Christolgy.ÂÂ  When GiC and EA go at it, I'm so confused).ÂÂ  The thing that bothers me is more ethical.ÂÂ  How am I, Shawn, supposed to relate to my fellow man.ÂÂ  If I see a prostitute, should I look on her with mercy and compassion; or...stone her and her lover to death?ÂÂ  From a biblical view, I don't know (and I know you might state John Cp. 8, but EA had a good argument on another forum on this issue that it was legally against the law to stone the woman to death; he didn't save her out of compassion).ÂÂ  Maybe you know, but I attended both a Coptic parish and a Carp.-Russ. parish (atcually the same one Linus7 attends), but how am I to relate to both communities?ÂÂ  History show's a bitterness between both communities down the ages.ÂÂ  Is my example to be Isaac of Syria (a figure of unity), Severus of Antioch and John of Damascus (figures of disunity) or is it to be Justinian (a figure of disunity, and the disunity leading to the slaughter of persons deemed "heretics").ÂÂ  
You see, Pedro, no one has given me a convincing arugment that God wouldn't ask me to kill someone (oh, say my old Catholic FOC, for not "repenting" from his heresy and joining the Orthodox church; or any number of my friends and family), and since I often have very violent thoughts in my head after reading these actions from the OT, I'm lead to believe that perhaps my violent thoughts are from this Biblical God, and not from the evil one.ÂÂ  This is why I started this thread in the first place.ÂÂ  The only thing that has been proven to me so far is that God is the same yesterday, today and forever, and that since he commanded the slaughter of "sinners" in the OT, I see no reason why he wouldn't and couldn't ask the same of me today.

shawn
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« Reply #191 on: May 29, 2006, 08:32:01 PM »

the world doesn't need repair, and man doesn't need a Savior. 
It may be a bit before your time, but there was a great song in the 70's which best sums up my response to this. Substitute any city's name for "London", and it still holds true:
"Let me take you by the hand
And lead you through the streets of London;
And I'll show you something
To make you change your mind...
"
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« Reply #192 on: May 29, 2006, 08:32:39 PM »

shawn,

When GiC and EA go at it, I'm so confused).

LOL.  Me too!

Quote
The thing that bothers me is more ethical.  How am I, Shawn, supposed to relate to my fellow man.  If I see a prostitute, should I look on her with mercy and compassion; or...stone her and her lover to death?

Well, I'd be interested in knowing EA's argument against the legality of doing the latter, OT-wise, but as for the difference in what Mosaic Law prescribes and what Christ Himself executed, the difference would be, in my opinion, a matter of why the executors were doing the executing.  Was it because they truly, out of love for God and holiness, wanted to purge the people of God of an unrepentant sinner?  Or were they simply trying to catch a pious-yet-controversial rabbi in His own words for the sake of preserving their own status as the religious head honchos?  The former was the ideal for the OT; the latter was the perversion of the OT law seen in the NT.

Quote
You see, Pedro, no one has given me a convincing arugment that God wouldn't ask me to kill someone


Well, forgive me, as my answer doesn't promise to do what no one else has been able to, but my immediate take on it (which is probably worth what I'm charging you for it  Wink) is that Christ instituted a radical change in the way the people of God were to relate to each other, as well as to those outside the people of God.  Instead of God using men to be the executors of His divine will, He commanded that we leave this to God.  Turn the other cheek, for vengeance is God's; He will repay, and all that.  This is the main reason why, imo, Christian Palestinians aren't all caught up in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict of today, nor are they rioting in the streets over the DaVinci code, as their Muslim counterparts were about cartoons of Mohammad (Muslims still having to be the ones to defend their (so-called) Allah, whilst ours told us He needs no defending; He'll lay down and take up His own life Himself, thankyouverymuch  Smiley)

This seems to have been forgotten in many tragic moments in the Church's history, done in the name of Christ, but executed by those who were more--shall we say, imperially minded rather than Christ-minded ( Lips Sealed).  As for your take on who to look to for an example regarding your inter-church dilemma...I dunno.  Maybe St. Cyril?  Nobody's got a problem with him... Grin
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« Reply #193 on: May 29, 2006, 08:53:11 PM »

How am I, Shawn, supposed to relate to my fellow man.ÂÂ  If I see a prostitute, should I look on her with mercy and compassion; or...stone her and her lover to death?ÂÂ  From a biblical view, I don't know

Shawn,

I try not to post too much in these topics, but rather to read peoples opinions where eventual mine will form. I understand completely what you mean about ethics and religion. I am friends with proud sinners, non-believers, Muslims ...etc But in the end I do not judge them, no matter what I feel God has told us to do or not to do. Judging is for God to do. If a prostitute will be stoned for her acts, I would rather stone her with faith and mercy, knowing this will affect them more than physical stones. If I am helping a helpless soul that is forever condemned to Hell, well atleast I tried. In the end, it is God who choses what should be done to the person. I'm just here to try and convince them to do the right thing. Hurting them, would be a waste of time because if that's what God has in store for them, my acts of intolerence will not be comparable to those He will impose.

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« Reply #194 on: May 29, 2006, 09:27:08 PM »

It's very much a part of Orthodox theology, as y'all know from your extensive past experiences in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, that God is not only a God of compassion and mercy towards mankind, but also of justice and wrath.

Yes.  I do not think any honest reading of OT scripture can deny the centrality of justice, righteousness, and wrath.  The question, as always, has been how to reconcile this view of God with the more compassionate and merciful version without caricaturizing God as either a schizophrenic or as a very powerful pagan-type diety prone to human faults.  It is in the gap between this caricature and the claim that "God is One" that doubt grows for many.

Quote
These categories however--"compassion and mercy" and "justice and wrath"--are primarily played out in mankind's perception of God's unchanging nature and will, instead of actual, separate "character traits" God objectively puts on at various times ("Great; now He's happy...$#!+; now He's pissed," etc.). 

Yes.  That sounds closer to my (albeit limited) understanding of Orthodox views on how we are to experience heaven, hell, and final judgement.  When standing naked before the awesomeness of the Lord, our perception is colored by our state of spiritual purity.  Just to check: Is this understanding correctly Orthodox?

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Whether we like it or not in 21st Century western civilization, there is a God out there who is going to bring His will to pass, when all's said and done.  The two things I know will be abundantly clear to us on the Last Day are these:

  • The will of God is that we would come in line with His way of thinking (ie, repent) and be saved from our destructive selves.  This is what He wants us to do, and it is ultimately for our benefit, even though it feels like it really sucks to deny oneself, take up our cross and follow Him.  We do that, though, and we come out better for it.
  • The ultimate reckoning of His judgement--which will really just be Him revealing what we've already made of ourselves with the time we've been given--will be fair and just, with each person feeling the joy or torment his or her life has yielded upon coming into contact with pure righteousness.

Reality bites! (How very 90's of me, oh my!) Wink  Seriously though, to stand before the Ultimate utterly without recourse or place to hide is the scariest of things to contemplate for anyone.  Is it any wonder we run to the shadows at every opportunity?  We are perpetually afraid of being caught with our hand in the cookie jar, and our imagination of the Father's wrath makes us blind to His love and forgiveness.  What parent would not instantly forgive his or her child if the child came and admitted weakness.  "Daddy and Mommy I'm sorry I couldn't resist and I want your help!"  And what child would not, upon receiving such forgiveness and being swept into the loving embrace of the parents, be transported instantly to a state of ecstacy?

Quote
So what was the fire and brimstone of Sodom?  Well, the perception in the OT (and in some of the NT!) was that it was God "getting pissed off" (that's mad, not drunk for my brethren across the ponds) at the insolence of those evil homosexuals et al and destroying them in the cruelest way possible.  What do we see that fire as in the light of Christ?  God's presence Himself--the same presence that filled Solomon's temple and was received with thanksgiving and glory.

Indeed, if God came down right now I would probably self-combust in shame before such reality and glory.  Certainly in the OT in those instances when God did appear, even benevolently, such as the burning bush, people naturally recoil, shield their eyes, etc.  However, there may be some problem with this view that I'd like to explore.

Let's take the traditional conception of the person as two natures, mortal body (the natural) and immortal soul (the supernatural).  The body is a vessel for the soul, and they conjoin at conception and grow together through life.  At death the body dissolves and the soul continues in whatever state it was in at death.

Now if we apply your theory in the case of the inhabitants of Soddom (Lot and company excluded), the people there had souls so darkened by sin that standing bodily before the presence of the Lord resulted in the people willfully discarding their own bodies rather than stand before the Lord God?  That seems to be what your are arguing.  It might be an answer but I'm trying to understand the mechanics of what you are proposing.

Quote
So that's the more supernatural dealings in the OT--what about the flood and the armies of Israel?  A bit trickier for me, that's for sure, but the same principle applies.  God has a certain way He'd have us be and live; when a people group was not only defying that within themselves but also threatening those who were being obedient (at the time, anyways) and whom God had chosen to bring salvation to the souls of mankind, He executed His will, and those who were contrary to Him were struck down.

See above.  The flood is much trickier imho, since it is a case where the Lord actually admitted he was wrong (thus the Rainbow Covenant), making it much harder to say God wasn't actively punishing humanity for their sins.  Are you saying that God just decided to appear before all humanity except those shielded with the ark, and all those sinful souls perceived God's presence as a flood?  Or did the waters actually rise?  We seem to be back to actual judgement and wrath it seems.

Quote
There is this aspect of God; one day we will stand before Him and He will show us what we are.  Insofar as we have allowed Him to change and guide us, we will be Solomon's temple.  Insofar as we have rebelled against Him in hatred towards Him and our neighbor, we will be Sodom.  Nothing will stop this, as it is the only way that the truth--about who God is, about what we have become in light of the time and the mercy that He has given us, though neither be infinite, temporally speaking--will finally prevail in the cosmos.  I do indeed lament that, at least intellectually, y'all can't reconcile yourselves to this.  I would actually ask for whatever prayers y'all may still give (I would understand if you don't, given your current stances on things), as well as those of anyone else reading this thread, since, though I may subscribe to this idea of unchanging divine revelation as the purgatory of judgement, my life (of course) does not reflect said attitude put into practice--I'm not prepared, iow.  God have mercy, for there is some Sodom yet in me.

Indeed I find this view very appealing, but there are still problems with it when you try to apply it to specific scriptual descriptions of God's acts.  I'm prepared to accept an awful lot of mystery about God's true character, but any explanations offered have to try to account for all scriptural references to the Lord's acts so as to transcend apparent schizophrenia.

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Hope this has helped...

Yes.  It has gotten the discussion back to where it should be, at least for me.

Peace.
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« Reply #195 on: May 29, 2006, 09:51:17 PM »

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Νεκτάριος, I agree that one must repent (or atleast, this is the moral of Jonah's story).  But if one chooses to live in sin, isn't that an expression of his/her freewill?  From a Biblical POV, I see that God's love is absolutely conditional ("you do this, you'll live.  you don't do this, you'll die).  But what of the Prodical Son?  The father in the story didn't know if his son would ever return; yet when is son finally did return he showed unconditional love towards his son.  The message to me seems a wee bit different than the God of destruction in the OT

Because we have free will, doesn't mean that God doesn't guide us.  The OT stories serve as a strong reminder that God desires us to follow His will.  i.e I more or less have free will from my parents, but that doesn't meant they don't encourage me not to drink and drive, nor tell me about people they know that have had their live's ruined because of drunk drivers. 

Nektarios
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« Reply #196 on: May 29, 2006, 09:59:39 PM »

Now if we apply your theory in the case of the inhabitants of Soddom (Lot and company excluded), the people there had souls so darkened by sin that standing bodily before the presence of the Lord resulted in the people willfully discarding their own bodies rather than stand before the Lord God?  That seems to be what your are arguing.  It might be an answer but I'm trying to understand the mechanics of what you are proposing.

No, the fire did consume the ungodly.  It's the same presence that caused Moses to glow with the uncreated light of God when he came in contact with it that caused the inhabitants of Sodom to actually and physically burn.

Quote
The flood is much trickier imho, since it is a case where the Lord actually admitted he was wrong

Wrong?  Careful, there.  Simply He made a promise that He would no longer deal with us in that way.  Next time it's gonna be fire.

Quote
making it much harder to say God wasn't actively punishing humanity for their sins.

Yes, this is why my idea breaks down somewhat; the flood and the armies of Israel are not a direct encounter with the presence of God.

Quote
Are you saying that God just decided to appear before all humanity except those shielded with the ark, and all those sinful souls perceived God's presence as a flood?  Or did the waters actually rise?  We seem to be back to actual judgement and wrath it seems.

It is an act of judgement, but why?  Because mankind had exceedingly departed from the way of God, and their demise was simply hastened, since no change of heart was (apparently) forthcoming.
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« Reply #197 on: May 29, 2006, 10:18:55 PM »

No, the fire did consume the ungodly.  It's the same presence that caused Moses to glow with the uncreated light of God when he came in contact with it that caused the inhabitants of Sodom to actually and physically burn.

But if God knows in advance the effect his presence would have on the unholy (and how could he not?), then it wouldn't be improper here to say that God killed them of His own will, right?  God made a choice to manifest himself at Soddom knowing fully the effect it would have, and therefore it would not be improper to characterize that choice as wrathful punishment, right?

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Wrong?  Careful, there.  Simply He made a promise that He would no longer deal with us in that way.  Next time it's gonna be fire.

Yes my apologies for the careless wording.  Retracted.

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Yes, this is why my idea breaks down somewhat; the flood and the armies of Israel are not a direct encounter with the presence of God.
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It is an act of judgement, but why?  Because mankind had exceedingly departed from the way of God, and their demise was simply hastened, since no change of heart was (apparently) forthcoming.

So your argument is that God willingly and actively killed everyone except the ark-dwellers because the souls of all humanity were utterly lost?  Stated another way, you seem to be claiming that the living had already passed the gates of Hell and were beyond all hope?  So was the Flood God's active recognition of that absolutely hopeless state?  I guess the question is:  Was it God's will that all humanity but Noah should die, or was it the manifestation of fallen humanities will?

Just trying to be precise here.

Peace.
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« Reply #198 on: May 29, 2006, 10:26:19 PM »

God made a choice to manifest himself at Soddom knowing fully the effect it would have, and therefore it would not be improper to characterize that choice as wrathful punishment, right?

Right, and this is exactly why such language is used in the Bible.  The issue is not whether He willfully did this, but the motives He had in mind when carrying out something like this.  Was it for His own selfish vengeance and offended justice?  Or was it because it could be no other way and simply was a preview of what would have happened anyway on the last day?

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Stated another way, you seem to be claiming that the living had already passed the gates of Hell and were beyond all hope?  So was the Flood God's active recognition of that absolutely hopeless state?  I guess the question is:  Was it God's will that all humanity but Noah should die, or was it the manifestation of fallen humanities will?

I should say that this is what I assume to be the case.  As I don't know the mind of God, I can't say for sure.  This is the most likely scenario, imo, based on what the Church has revealed to us re: Why God Does Stuff.  So to your last question, imo, it was NOT God's will that all humanity should die--He would rather they all repent.  Yet since (again, apparently) this was not going to happen because humanity had, at large, decided to lock themselves away from God, the destruction that was going to happen anyway was merely hastened by the flood.
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« Reply #199 on: May 29, 2006, 10:31:35 PM »

The NT perfectly compliments the OT.  It's like a sequel to a movie with a tragic ending.  Yet tragic as it may seem, the punishment in the OT was exclusively physical, that is death.  The message in the NT is escape from death and the POTENTIAL restoration of practically all things--including the wicked who went to Hades.  If nobody went Hades in the OT, there's no need for the NT. 

The icon of the Anastasis perfectly illustrates the compatibility between the two testaments.

http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/170/Understanding%20the%20Resurrection.htm

Hope this helps.

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« Reply #200 on: May 29, 2006, 10:55:10 PM »

Pedro.  I sincerely appreciate your willingness to engage with clarity and patience.  The issues on this thread tend to be a real struggle for many.  I think I have a much clearer view of your position now.

The icon of the Anastasis perfectly illustrates the compatibility between the two testaments.

http://www.orthodoxnews.netfirms.com/170/Understanding%20the%20Resurrection.htm

Hope this helps.

Thank you Theognosis.  Indeed that does put a better perspective on the Lord of Hosts.

Question:  why has it taken 14 pages of discussion before this was posted?  Or was this discussed earlier and I just missed it?
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« Reply #201 on: May 29, 2006, 11:44:39 PM »

.

Question:ÂÂ  why has it taken 14 pages of discussion before this was posted?ÂÂ  

Because that is the nature of our faith: just as in a relationship with a person you do not know everything about them all at once, so also do we need to work with each other to grow in our relationsip with God.

This is why we are in communities: to help each other, and like St. Photini at the well, when we touch upon truth we immediately run to tell others and evangelise the world.
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« Reply #202 on: June 06, 2006, 04:55:41 PM »

great topic guys and gals!  Grin
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« Reply #203 on: June 07, 2006, 12:02:32 PM »

I asked a question before, I forgot if I asked it here or somewhere else, but there are places in Scripture where we are simply saved from the "curse of the Law."  Then there are other places where the Law is considered good.  I wonder, while I have an interpretation to myself concerning this, what your thoughts may be.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #204 on: June 08, 2006, 12:32:25 PM »

I asked a question before, I forgot if I asked it here or somewhere else, but there are places in Scripture where we are simply saved from the "curse of the Law."ÂÂ  Then there are other places where the Law is considered good.ÂÂ  I wonder, while I have an interpretation to myself concerning this, what your thoughts may be.

God bless.

Mina

Interesting question!

However, do you have any particular verses in mind so that we can put the words being studied within a context?
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« Reply #205 on: June 09, 2006, 01:08:42 AM »

What comes to my mind is Galatians 13:13 when it comes to the curse.

And for goodness of the Law, I'll go with the famous Psalm 119 (118 LXX).

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #206 on: June 09, 2006, 02:09:58 AM »

I asked a question before, I forgot if I asked it here or somewhere else, but there are places in Scripture where we are simply saved from the "curse of the Law."ÂÂ  Then there are other places where the Law is considered good.ÂÂ  I wonder, while I have an interpretation to myself concerning this, what your thoughts may be.

The Old Covenant could either be a blessing or a curse (Deut. 30:1-19).  In the final days of Judea, during the time of Jesus when the Jews had turned their hearts away from God (Luke 11:29), the verdict was final: whoever adheres to the Old Covenant will be cursed (Gal 3:10).  And true to God's word, within one generation (Luke 11:49-51, 21:32), those who rejected the New Covenant were punished during the siege of Jerusalem.

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