OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 06:31:24 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: similar ethnicity  (Read 7821 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
irene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167

OC.net


« on: February 18, 2006, 10:55:02 AM »

Anyone know what Orthodox Church Hungarians would find most similar to their ethnicity? (liturgy in english).   Albanian, or would it be Romanian?  (OCA)   thx for any info.  Irene
Logged
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2006, 12:09:52 PM »

Irene,
Hungarian language is somewhat unique. At least it is different from Romanian. Looks like if this situation takes place in USA, probably these people may need to search for an English-language parish.
In any case, may God help them to find the best variant!
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2006, 12:20:29 PM »

Linguistically speaking, Hungarian is part of the Finno-Ugric language group, the two similar ethnicities (and hence Language groups) that have a notable Orthodox presence are Finnish and Estonian.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
irene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167

OC.net


« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2006, 02:27:44 PM »

Thanks for your replies, I appreciate it.

As far as 'feeling at home'  which jurisdiction do you suggest?   They speak fluent english.    Considering the countries proximal to Hungary, and past histories, which would seem the best blend? Undecided     
Logged
Kaminetz
Member
***
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 124


« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2006, 02:44:14 PM »

For what it's worth, Hungary and Romania haven't had very friendly relations historically, if that's what you're interested in knowing. That doesn't automatically mean that a Hungarian won't feel at home at a Romanian parish, of course.

For example, Russia and Romania also haven't had smooth relations and I've heard of both going to each other's parishes and being very much welcomed - and that is the way it SHOULD be.

It's sad, there's fractioned ethnic relations even amidst the Orthodox themselves, i.e. Russians and Ukrainians, Bulgarians and Greeks (that can get nasty), Macedonian Slavs and Greeks (that one can get VERY nasty), Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians, Macedonian Slavs and Serbs, I think I better stop before it starts looking hopeless, lol...

In all seriousness I pray that the strongest way we can build overall peace and unity in the world is by having it in our own home first, by having us fellow Orthodox reconcile amidst ourselves. It's a long path but it's possible. Anyway, this is OT...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 02:44:59 PM by Kaminetz » Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,404


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2006, 12:39:39 AM »

If you live in Hungary your best bet is to go to Serbia, but stay in the Vojvodina province.  There's like a 40% minority of Hungarians there, so people won't look at you funny.  Plus if you're Orthodox, people in Vojvodina are very cosmopolitan...there used to be Jews, Muslims, Croatian Catholics, and other groups there, before all the wars.  So people still retained that outlook when it comes to other groups....for the most part.  Every town has its villiage idiots, so be careful if you go.  You shouldn't have problems.  If you want more details let me know! 
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2006, 12:55:53 AM »

The ridiculousness of the idea that this question needs to be asked really shows how pathetic Orthodoxy can be sometimes. 
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2006, 12:59:14 AM »

Quote
The ridiculousness of the idea that this question needs to be asked really shows how pathetic Orthodoxy can be sometimes.

How so?  She didn't ask which one was more Orthodox than the other, she just wants a cultural experience similar to the one she is comfortable with...

It's not like the question "needed" to be asked, but it is something that would make irene more comfortable, so why not?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 01:00:47 AM by cleveland » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2006, 01:01:29 AM »

How rediculous OrthodoxY is? Or how rediciulous Orthodox People can be?? There is a (huge) difference you know  Shocked
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2006, 01:02:18 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8235.msg107983#msg107983 date=1140324953]
The ridiculousness of the idea that this question needs to be asked really shows how pathetic Orthodoxy can be sometimes. 
[/quote]

It's ridiculous that people have cultural experiences? That they are influenced by their society and history? That certain societies have traditionally had difficult relations? What truly is ridiculous is your idealist view of the world, and the desire to exclude culture and history in pursuit of some non-existant utipia.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2006, 01:06:47 AM »

I think member Fr. John Bon Jovi told me tonight that he heard Fr. John Behr speak at yesterday's OISM (Orthodox Inter-Seminary Movement) shindig, and he was talking about how in the first two centuries the local communities, meeting in houses and catecombs and whatnot, often were grouped by similar culture (contrary to popular opinion)... while no one would reject members of other cultural backgrounds, the people did tend to congregate with members of similar cultural backgrounds (greeks, cartheginians, jews, antiochians, etc.)
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,404


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2006, 01:14:28 AM »

Yes, he also said, more specifically, that in Rome for example:
Antiochian christians would pray only together,
Alexandrian christians would pray only together
Thessalonian Christians would pray only together
etc.etc.etc.
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
irene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167

OC.net


« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2006, 01:32:50 AM »

I asked this question ahead of visitors arriving.  I have confidence in each jurisdiction that the Orthodox will be welcoming and loving.  But, there isn't any Orthodox Church with 'Hungarian' in the name, I am only curious to see which ones might seem the most comfortable for them.    Thanks for your help, Irene   
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2006, 02:32:11 AM »

Antiquity doesn't always make a practice normal or beneficial.  I don't know, maybe I am too idealistic to think Orthodox people would actually act like they believe in some sort one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.  Honestly the little ethnic stuff some of you take so seriously, is just so silly and laughable. 
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,441


« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2006, 02:36:28 AM »

I asked this question ahead of visitors arriving.  I have confidence in each jurisdiction that the Orthodox will be welcoming and loving.  But, there isn't any Orthodox Church with 'Hungarian' in the name, I am only curious to see which ones might seem the most comfortable for them.    Thanks for your help, Irene   

There are liturgical Byzantine Catholic books (almost identical to their Orthodox counterparts) with many hymns produced in Hungary (ummm...100+ years ago that is) with much SW Rusyn music, so...Carpatho Russians or souther Ukrainians?  You asked a weird question, so I'm giving AN answer.  I just learned the Hungry connection at a singing seminar this weekend.
Logged
Kaminetz
Member
***
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 124


« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2006, 03:54:17 AM »

Hungary has historically been very firmly Catholic. Had the Austro-Hungarian Empire not existed in the form it did, it is possible that the Romanians or Slavs nearby would have helped set up Orthodox missions in Hungary. The Austro-Hungarian government did sponsor a Uniate movement but this was aimed at the Romanians and Slavs who wanted to have a stronger voice in the A-H empire. Many Carpatho-Russians/Rusyns left the A-H empire because they were not free to be Orthodox, many of them later on became a part of what we now know as the OCA. Hungary is the only eastern european land that lacks a firm Orthodox presence (save for non-Hungarian minorities).

Fortunately times are different now and maybe we will see the emergence of Hungarian Orthodoxy, that would be great!

As far as ethnic conflicts in general are concerned, I don't LIKE the fact that they exist, I don't think anybody does. But that in itself is hardly a reason to decide to abolish all ethnicity, just as the presence of schisms in the churches isn't a reason to abolish Orthodoxy! I don't agree with the American or Marxist view that ethnicity is simply an "imagined community" and that if we just "imagine there's no country" as John Lennon suggested (just as he suggested we "imagine there's no heaven"), that we will be "living life in peace, yoo-hoo"

Ethnicity is something that is a part of who we are. Sacrificing your ethnicity and your love of your people as an ethnos is the same thing as asking all people to shave their hair bald so everyone looks the same.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 03:54:41 AM by Kaminetz » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2006, 04:36:55 AM »

Irene,
Hungary has it's own Orthodox Diocese. The Diocese of Hungary, centred in Budapest, is under the Juristiction of the Moscow Patriarchate. The website of the Hungarian Orthodox Church (in Hungarian) is: http://www.magyarorthodoxia.org/.
A bief history of the Orthodox Church in Hungary can be found here: http://www.roca.org/OA/90/90m.htm and here: http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/oehungar.htm
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,093


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2006, 08:01:26 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος]
I don't know, maybe I am too idealistic to think Orthodox people would actually act like they believe in some sort one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.[/quote]

Ahhh, no, you're not too idealistic, you're too cynical.  Even in this country, where there are different bishops and jurisdictions, there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  If you don't believe so, then the Cup offered this morning is worthless; but in that Cup is the means and end to unity.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
irene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167

OC.net


« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2006, 09:01:48 AM »

Have some good ideas thanks to your replies.

We could walk into any Orthodox Church and believe in the one universal church, it's not about that. just think it'll be pretty neat for them to share in their ethnic heritage. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing more serious than that.
You have given some helpful links.thx!  I've just finished reading the 2nd link, it's really interesting, Ozgeorge.  Oh, how i wish 'could get the 1st link in english!  would love to read it.   If there's a will, there's a way!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2006, 09:16:08 AM by irene » Logged
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2006, 09:44:48 AM »

'shave their hair bald so everyone looks the same '

Hey! watch the bald jokes - hater!  Cheesy  (Just kidding, of course)

God, in His creative genius only allowed for a few perfect heads - the rest have hair.

And yes, if Adam and Eve had not sinned, there STILL would have been bald people  Tongue
Logged
Yiannis
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 81

Behold the Lamb of God


« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2006, 03:34:52 PM »

about Orthodoxy in Hungary: I have some Orthodox friends from Hungary, converts from Protestantism, who attend a church of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. There are at least 2 parishes of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Hungary which depend from the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Austria.
Logged

Christ, the true Light!
Carpatho Russian
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 285


Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory for ever!


« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2006, 02:32:25 PM »

Irene,
The ethnic Hungarians I know (in the US) who are Eastern Rite either attend a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic parish or a Carpatho Russian Orthodox parish.
As an aside, my grandfather's Izbornik (prayerbook) which he brought with him from the "old country" was published in Hungary in Church Slavonic.
Logged

Zastupnice christianov nepostydnaja, chodatajice ko Tvorcu nepreložnaja, ne prezri hr’išnych molenij hlasy, popredvari jako blahaja na pomošč nas, virno vopijuščich ti: Uskori na molitvu, i potščisja na umolenije, zastupajušči prisno Bohorodice, čtuščich t’a.
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,068



« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2006, 09:59:47 PM »

Karpatski Rusnack,
I even have an old ByzCath prayer book in Hungarian.  The oldest Hungarian ByzCatholic parish in New England (under the Ruthenian ByzCath eparchy of Passaic) was closed late last year.  I'm not sure what the difference in small traditions were between the Hungarians originally, but I'm thinking today you probably wouldn't find too much of a difference between the Ruthenian parishes with Rusnack roots and one with Hungarian roots, perhaps maybe different hymns or something.  
Deacon Lance, any insight?
Logged

The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,758


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2006, 11:43:48 PM »

Magyars (Hungarians) are both sui generis in Europe and Roman Catholic: not Slavic, nor Latin (like the Romanians) nor related to the Albanians.

They were actually Central Asian to begin with like the Finns, Estonians and Turks; all of these are distantly related.

So their language is unintelligible to their Slavic and Romanian neighbours and indeed to anybody else in Europe.

But as has been mentioned here, the Byzantine Christian minority in the country are Slavic: Ruthenian. They traditionally worship in Slavonic.

There has been intermarriage: several Ruthenian surnames are really Magyar, such as Barna, Dudash and Toth.
Logged

Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2006, 12:51:19 AM »

Quote
Magyars (Hungarians) are both sui generis in Europe and Roman Catholic: not Slavic, nor Latin (like the Romanians) nor related to the Albanians.

If you are speaking in terms of language, then Romanians most certainly are Latin.  
Logged
Kaminetz
Member
***
Offline Offline

Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 124


« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2006, 01:45:51 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8235.msg108357#msg108357 date=1140497479]
If you are speaking in terms of language, then Romanians most certainly are Latin. ÂÂ
[/quote]

...with a significant mixture of Slavic words and declensions thrown in. Romanians are a mixed people, they are predominantly Latin but also have Slavic blood (Moldovans in particular). This is what makes them different from other Latins like the Italians, Spaniards, French.

Hungarians are also partly mixed with Slavs and Germans, and have some Slavic and German words in their volcabulary.
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2006, 01:58:00 AM »

Quote
with a significant mixture of Slavic words and declensions thrown in

Most of the slavic loan words do have less commonly used latin based synonyms.  Regardless loan words do not determine what language grouping a language is in.  Ortherwise almost every single language could be considered Germanic because of the high number of English words in common use today.  Romanian is not intelligle to a native Slavic speaker that has not been extensively trained in the language.  Latin is the dominant base of Romanian - of course the language has taken a different course than French (although there are plenty of loan words from French in Romanian) or Italian - but it is still a Romance language.  
Logged
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2006, 03:20:17 AM »

Anyone know what Orthodox Church Hungarians would find most similar to their ethnicity? (liturgy in english).   Albanian, or would it be Romanian?  (OCA)   thx for any info.  Irene

I spend half of the year in Cluj-Napoca/Kolozsvar learning Hungarian and giving some attention to its oppressed Hungarian minority, and I have to say that I'm always very disappointed by Orthodox pulpits being used for anti-Hungarian speeches. The Orthodox cathedral in Kolozsvar has a statue of Avram Iancu--a man who notoriously murdered many Hungarians in the 1800s--in front of it situated so that it looks like its protecting Orthodoxy from the Hungarians. When I stayed at an Orthodox monastery in Romania this past summer, some of the monks suggested that as an Orthodox Christian, I shouldn't be associating with Hungarians. Here in Chicago, one of the Romanian Orthodox churches (OCA) had a memorial service for the founder of the Iron Guard, the fascist group which blamed all of Romania's problems on Hungarians, Roma, and Jews.

There are good people in Romanian churches, and you can't beat the food after the services at the Romanian churches in the U.S., but if I were Hungarian I'd just want to avoid the risk. Furthermore, most Romanian churches have the liturgy in Romanian.

I'd recommend just going to the closest church regardless of ethnicity, even if it is an Antiochian or Russian church that doesn't seem like it would be especially close to the Magyar heart. You might be surprised.
Logged
czzham
...at work in the sonic Monastery...
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Posts: 65

...in pursuit of Divine Mystery...


« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2006, 03:57:40 AM »

As an American Mongrel, it would be nice to have some real ethnicity of my own, as well as what the many ethnic originals (& 2nd - 4th generations!) share with me in my life, most notably at my home Orthodox Christian parish (OCA). I read most of the posts in this thread. "Nectarios" (in Greek) seems to enjoy sarcasm, as evidenced by the Wiccan hat & brews while discussing the Faith. Yes, I'm drinking too, otherwise I probably wouldn't answer except to say "God bless, & many years!" to the inquirer, but the hat? Was Baba Yaga Orthodox? Not!
Irene, I wish you all the best in your search. No doubt; "Many Years!"  Cool
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 03:59:12 AM by czzham » Logged

Non-liturgical lyrics are wasted space between solos.
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2006, 06:57:20 AM »

I spend half of the year in Cluj-Napoca/Kolozsvar learning Hungarian and giving some attention to its oppressed Hungarian minority, and I have to say that I'm always very disappointed by Orthodox pulpits being used for anti-Hungarian speeches. The Orthodox cathedral in Kolozsvar has a statue of Avram Iancu--a man who notoriously murdered many Hungarians in the 1800s--in front of it situated so that it looks like its protecting Orthodoxy from the Hungarians. When I stayed at an Orthodox monastery in Romania this past summer, some of the monks suggested that as an Orthodox Christian, I shouldn't be associating with Hungarians. Here in Chicago, one of the Romanian Orthodox churches (OCA) had a memorial service for the founder of the Iron Guard, the fascist group which blamed all of Romania's problems on Hungarians, Roma, and Jews.

There are good people in Romanian churches, and you can't beat the food after the services at the Romanian churches in the U.S., but if I were Hungarian I'd just want to avoid the risk. Furthermore, most Romanian churches have the liturgy in Romanian.

I'd recommend just going to the closest church regardless of ethnicity, even if it is an Antiochian or Russian church that doesn't seem like it would be especially close to the Magyar heart. You might be surprised.

I've never been to Cluj, but unless it's very different from the other areas with Hungarian minorities I'd be hard pressed to see them as oppressed innocents. I'm not denying that there are people who hate and are prejudiced against Hungarians (this comes with the history of the Hungarian oppression of Romanians - just look at the Unia and the behaviour of the Hungarians in WWII). This is obviously wrong, but people in the Balkans have long memories, on top of which Hungarians are about the only group in Romania who absolutely refuse to integrate with the rest of society.

There are entire villages where they refuse to use Romanian and will not serve Romanians in their shops unless they speak in Hungarian. There is a nationalist Hungarian party which doesn't do the Hungarians any favours either. There are the revisionist 'historians' who claim that when the Magyars found Transylvania it was unpopulated (which flies in the face of the contemporary Magyar accounts). Such behaviour does not exactly go down well with Romanians. It doesn't even go down well with non-Romanian ethnic groups such as the Poles, Germans and Ukrainians. Their attitude is quite different and whilst they keep alive their traditions and have villages of their own (such as Cacica, mainly Polish, and several mainly Ukrainian villages outside Siret), they do not refuse to serve Romanians, refuse to speak Romanian or agitate for independence/re-write history.

We have family friends in Romania from various minority groups, German, Ukrainian, Polish and I have a settled Gypsy acquaintance also. None of them react favourably towards the Hungarians and so it's simply not correct to categorise such views as simple oppression of Hungarians by the Romanian majority. There are always two sides to every story and to some extent the Hungarian community (but certainly not individual Hungarians) in Romania is responsible for the way it is perceived by other Romanians. If they were to integrate like other groups then I should think the hatreds would die out over time, but rather than do that they seem to yearn for the old empire. I'd note that this has absolutely nothing to do with religion either, as the Poles are almost entirely RC as are most of the Germans.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,758


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2006, 07:13:42 AM »

I meant that the Magyars aren't Latin like the Romanians not that Romanians aren't Latin.
Logged

CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2006, 09:09:13 AM »

There are entire villages where they refuse to use Romanian and will not serve Romanians in their shops unless they speak in Hungarian.

This can be attributed to poor Romanian skills. The Hungarians have inhabited that land for hundreds and hundreds of years. As a result, many Hungarians never saw a need to learn Romanian. I myself think people should be encouraged to learn as many foreign languages as possible, but it's hard to communicate this to an unlettered shopkeeper confused and bewildered about the Romanian-ization of his native land.

Quote
There are the revisionist 'historians' who claim that when the Magyars found Transylvania it was unpopulated (which flies in the face of the contemporary Magyar accounts).

The Magyar account talking about Vlachs in Transylvania at the time of settlement is the chronicle written by Anonymous, hundreds of years after the occupation of the Carpathian basin. It is in no way a contemporary account, and as a result it must be taken with a large grain of salt. More and more historians are finding it hard to support Vlach settlement in the Carpathian basin before the turn of the second millenium. It has nothing to do with Hungarian revisionists. Much of the scholarly world outside of Romania is now questioning Dacian Continuity Theory.

Quote
If they were to integrate like other groups then I should think the hatreds would die out over time, but rather than do that they seem to yearn for the old empire.

The Hungarians have lived there for over a thousand years, they have the right to maintain their language and culture. None of the Hungarians I know care about empire. They do care about the right to address their elected officials in their own language, ensure that their children and grandchildren go on preserving their ways, and not have Romanian mayors calling them spies and declaring he wants to run after them with a Kalashnikov.

It is a tragedy that when the redrawing of borders occured with Trianon, it was seen as Transylvania being joined to Romania. Instead, it should have marked the creation of a new state, a multiethnic land where Hungarians, Romanians, and Roma could all use their native languages in public discourse. Instead, it was organized as ethnic Romanians' ursurping of a land belonging to many peoples, as if Spanish speakers in the American Southwest demanded these states be joined to Mexico and English were henceforth verboten in national government. Yes, Hungarian rule was often cruel, but that was in the past. The decline of Hungarian culture in Transylvania is a current reality, and referring to excesses done when no living person was alive is no way to do anything about it.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 09:16:31 AM by CRCulver » Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2006, 10:24:40 AM »

Quote
I read most of the posts in this thread. "Nectarios" (in Greek) seems to enjoy sarcasm, as evidenced by the Wiccan hat & brews while discussing the Faith. Yes, I'm drinking too, otherwise I probably wouldn't answer except to say "God bless, & many years!" to the inquirer, but the hat? Was Baba Yaga Orthodox? Not!

About the hat, it is a traditional Swabish hat as I am at a festival in Stuttgart, Germany in the photograph.  There is nothing immoral about celebrating a holiday and drinking responsibly.  I'm not Wiccan.  
Logged
SiviSokol
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: SOC
Posts: 135


Tamburica u mom srcu


« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2006, 11:04:50 AM »

I would reply to jmbejdl's post, but CRCulver has said most of what I wanted to say.

As an aside, some of my father's family are Greek Catholics from Nyricsad and Piricse in eastern Hungary and I'd like to point out that they are/were solidly Hungarian, and not Rusyn, Romanian or Ukrainian.  Not all Eastern Christians from Hungary are of Slavic or Romanian extraction.
Logged
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,758


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2006, 11:19:17 AM »

I would reply to jmbejdl's post, but CRCulver has said most of what I wanted to say.

As an aside, some of my father's family are Greek Catholics from Nyricsad and Piricse in eastern Hungary and I'd like to point out that they are/were solidly Hungarian, and not Rusyn, Romanian or Ukrainian.  Not all Eastern Christians from Hungary are of Slavic or Romanian extraction.

Probably Slavic to begin with - the reason there were immigrant Hungarian churches among the Ruthenian Catholics was because the people from those parts were magyarised. I'd mentioned intermarriage and yes, some of those groups were Magyar-speaking.
Logged

Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2006, 11:27:30 AM »

I heard a few times that at one point a group of Calvinist or Unitarian nobles (the story changes a lot!) converted to Greek Catholicism and hence that is where you get some Magyar Byzantine Catholics who do not have Rusyn extraction.  Is there any historical basis to this story?
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2006, 11:45:53 AM »

The Hungarians have lived there for over a thousand years, they have the right to maintain their language and culture. None of the Hungarians I know care about empire. They do care about the right to address their elected officials in their own language, ensure that their children and grandchildren go on preserving their ways, and not have Romanian mayors calling them spies and declaring he wants to run after them with a Kalashnikov.

And the Romanians have lived there a lot longer, but that is not the point of what I wrote and you seem to be overlooking, or deliberately ignoring, what I wrote about the other ethnic groups in Romania. The Poles preserve their language and culture, the Ukrainians do the same, the older Germans likewise, though the younger ones seem to be losing the language to some extent. None of them are treated by other Romanians in the way the Hungarians are treated, none of them have the same isolationist attitudes and none of them look on the Hungarian minority much better than any other Romanian would. My wife is not ethnically pure Romanian, but comes from (on one side) a Ukrainian family as evidenced by her maiden name, Mandiuc. My godfather is of Polish extraction, his wife partly Greek (she's from the south east). All of them think of themselves as Romanian and are proud of Romania even though they keep their ethnic traditions and culture alive. The same can be said of the German families I know well, and that is why there is the reaction to the Hungarians that there is. It isn't right, and I'd never argue that it was, but that is how people are and the Hungarians are at least partially to blame for how they are perceived. I choose not to comment on your revisionist history as it is clear that neither of us is unbiased in this matter and it would merely lead to senseless bickering but you seem to be trying to cast things as a black and white issue of persecution by modern Romanians when it quite clearly is not so.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
SiviSokol
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: SOC
Posts: 135


Tamburica u mom srcu


« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2006, 12:02:57 PM »

Quote
Probably Slavic to begin with - the reason there were immigrant Hungarian churches among the Ruthenian Catholics was because the people from those parts were magyarised. I'd mentioned intermarriage and yes, some of those groups were Magyar-speaking.

No.  Please don't tell me about my family history.  Geneological records and analysis of last names indicate that they were Hungarians...nor were they nobility.  Just plain 'ole Magyar peasant Greek Catholics.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2006, 01:02:13 PM »

No.  Please don't tell me about my family history.  Geneological records and analysis of last names indicate that they were Hungarians...nor were they nobility.  Just plain 'ole Magyar peasant Greek Catholics.

Fascinating! What is the scope of these native Hungarian Greek Catholics? Were they Orthodox before the unia, or do you suspect they switched over from Roman Catholicism at some point, or some other option?

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,758


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2006, 01:03:40 PM »

Never heard the Magyar converted-nobility story before.

analysis of last names

Already explained that: intermarriage. Lots of Ruthenians are part Magyar and have the surnames to prove it.
Logged

Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2006, 01:50:25 PM »

Never heard the Magyar converted-nobility story before.

Already explained that: intermarriage. Lots of Ruthenians are part Magyar and have the surnames to prove it.

I would ask on byzcath but don't post there anymore as you-know-who pulled a similar trick on me that he did on you, namely, misconstrue the intricacies of one's argument, come to wild, conspiratorial conclusions, and then refuse to accept the accused's explanation of what was really going on obstinately, even when faced with clear proof that he was off-base.  I'll do a little googling.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
SiviSokol
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: SOC
Posts: 135


Tamburica u mom srcu


« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2006, 02:29:19 PM »

I would like to see the Young Fogey's evidence that *all* Hungarian Greek Catholics have some Rusyn/Ukrainian ancestry.   That's a bold claim, buddy.

Religion is not genetic inheritance.  While rare (especially in feudal Eastern Europe), people or villages switched religions.  This had more to do with the vagaries of those in power than actual empowered choice by individuals.  Moreover, there is some strange quasi-phyletist logic in arguing that Hungarian ethnicity automatically precludes either Orthodox or Greek Catholic religion as a natural attribute.

However, since I can only go back some two hundred years on that side I can't say definitively whether I am right or not.  I do know, however, that there exists no oral tradition of conversion within my family, nor of any lingering sense of identification with Rusyn culture (Not that I dislike Rusyns...I like them quite a bit.  Before I became Orthodox, I belonged to a parish that was largely Rusyn), nor any indication in the geneological record.

When in my old parish the priest would proclaim "Christ is Risen", he would do it in English, Slavonic, Greek....and Hungarian:  Krisztus Feltamadt!

As far as Hungarian Calvinists converting to Greek Catholicism, I have no basis to either affirm or deny it.  I've heard it as well, but possibly from the same place as Anastasios.  I do know that where my family is from was close to the Hungarian Calvinist stronghold of Debrecen...  


Logged
The young fogey
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,758


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2006, 03:11:58 PM »

It's a simple matter of rite - about the only way a whole people or a whole village would switch rites is if their ruler forced them to. A couple of places in Europe did switch that way once or twice.

Rite is so ingrained in a culture so it's hard to do.

Magyars AFAIK have always been Roman Rite, Ruthenians Byzantine, the Carpathian Mountain homeland of Ruthenians extends into Hungary (the groups also lived together and mixed in what's now Slovakia) and there you are.

My guess is the family became Greek Catholic through the Ruthenians > 200 years ago and is now magyarised so of course there'd be no identification today with Ruthenians.

But in the old country did they worship in Slavonic or in Magyar? My guess is Slavonic, which would have come from the Ruthenians and not the Magyars.

I'm not saying one group is better, simply putting the pieces together logically to see historical fact.
Logged

SiviSokol
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: SOC
Posts: 135


Tamburica u mom srcu


« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2006, 05:17:51 PM »

There were no translations into Magyar until relatively recently.  Please read the links that were provided earlier in this thread concerning the Hungarian Orthodox.  However, it is my understanding that there were no liturgical texts in Romanian until relatively recently.  Does this make Romanians Greek or Ukrainian/Bulgarian/Serbian/Rusyn

Where is the proof that *all* Magyars have always been Roman Rite?  If you are speaking on the level of what is accepted as official "Hungarian Culture" TM, then you are correct.  That sort of thinking breaks down when you get to the village or family level.  What about Saints such as St. Moses?  Alternatively, what about the possible Slavicization/Romanianization of Hungarian religious minorities (i.e. Orthodox)?  

Please present some bibliography on the topic that argues in favor of your viewpoint.

As far as the last possibility, I have a friend who is from Romania whose family was Greek Catholic that unfortunately was forced to convert to Orthodoxy after WWII. The family name is a Romanized Hungarian name.  (Not something to stake historical arguments on, but interesting nonetheless)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2006, 05:19:06 PM by SiviSokol » Logged
irene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167

OC.net


« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2006, 07:38:07 PM »

Only have a sec, and three people are talking to me at the same time  Roll Eyes
so excuse me if I missed it, but what church were you in when the priest  proclaimed 'Christ is Risen' in Hungarian? (this is to SiviSokol).

Logged
Carpatho Russian
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 285


Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory for ever!


« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2006, 10:00:11 PM »

Karpatski Rusnack,
I even have an old ByzCath prayer book in Hungarian.  The oldest Hungarian ByzCatholic parish in New England (under the Ruthenian ByzCath eparchy of Passaic) was closed late last year.  I'm not sure what the difference in small traditions were between the Hungarians originally, but I'm thinking today you probably wouldn't find too much of a difference between the Ruthenian parishes with Rusnack roots and one with Hungarian roots, perhaps maybe different hymns or something.  
Deacon Lance, any insight?
A friend of mine attended the Hungarian Byzantine Catholic Parish in New Brunswick, NJ years ago.  They used the traditional Prostopinije but in Hungarian.  I don't know if the parish is still there.  However, the Chardas Restaurant is still there.  Maybe I'll head there this weekend for authentic chicken paprikash to celebrate Fashengy!
Vesely Fashengy!
Logged

Zastupnice christianov nepostydnaja, chodatajice ko Tvorcu nepreložnaja, ne prezri hr’išnych molenij hlasy, popredvari jako blahaja na pomošč nas, virno vopijuščich ti: Uskori na molitvu, i potščisja na umolenije, zastupajušči prisno Bohorodice, čtuščich t’a.
irene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167

OC.net


« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2006, 10:07:19 PM »

If it's half as good as my Grandma used to make, it'll be good eats for sure Grin

New Brunswick NJ.....spent many childhood years there visiting her on good ole Huntington St.

May her memory be eternal.........
Logged
Carpatho Russian
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 285


Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory for ever!


« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2006, 10:26:46 PM »

If it's half as good as my Grandma used to make, it'll be good eats for sure Grin
The cooks in the kitchen are 2 old Hungarian women.
Logged

Zastupnice christianov nepostydnaja, chodatajice ko Tvorcu nepreložnaja, ne prezri hr’išnych molenij hlasy, popredvari jako blahaja na pomošč nas, virno vopijuščich ti: Uskori na molitvu, i potščisja na umolenije, zastupajušči prisno Bohorodice, čtuščich t’a.
Carpatho Russian
Site Supporter
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 285


Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory for ever!


« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2006, 10:27:41 PM »

May her memory be eternal.........
Vichnaja Pamjat!
Logged

Zastupnice christianov nepostydnaja, chodatajice ko Tvorcu nepreložnaja, ne prezri hr’išnych molenij hlasy, popredvari jako blahaja na pomošč nas, virno vopijuščich ti: Uskori na molitvu, i potščisja na umolenije, zastupajušči prisno Bohorodice, čtuščich t’a.
Starlight
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA (Ecumenical Patriarchate)
Posts: 1,537


« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2006, 02:09:46 AM »

Irene,
My original assumption was that your Hungarian Orthodox friends currently live in USA. If so, they can just visit surrounding Orthodox churches in the area and check them out. In terms of an attitude of parishioners, it should be welcoming in the majority of parishes. However, they need to understand services, and therefore the extent of use of English language may be an issue.
But is that assumption was an error, and they live in Hungary, may be also these links will be helpful.
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Austria. As Yiannis mentioned, parishes in Hungary are subordinated to this Metropolis. The contact information can be found: http://www.holytrinity.ct.goarch.org/ecdir.html
Bulgarian Orthodox Parish in Budapest:
http://www.rilaeu.com/h1bgeu.htm
Information about Serbian Orthodox Parish in Budapest:
http://www.serbianunity.net/yugoslavia/html/churches.html#HUNGARY
Some other links were provided by Ozgeorge.
So, in this case, I would recommend to contact these parishes and to find more information.

Logged
irene
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 167

OC.net


« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2006, 06:56:09 AM »

You have all been so helpful, thanks! Smiley
Logged
SiviSokol
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: SOC
Posts: 135


Tamburica u mom srcu


« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2006, 09:38:54 AM »

Hi Irene,

Unfortunately, the church that I spoke of is Greek Catholic and not Orthodox.  It was my old parish before I converted.  You might find some people who identify as (part-)Magyar in an ACROD (American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese) church.  As Young Fogey pointed out, there was a decent bit of Hungarian-Rusyn intermarriage.  
Logged
Psalti Boy
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Don't need one
Posts: 842



« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2006, 01:21:10 AM »

Yes, he also said, more specifically, that in Rome for example:
Antiochian christians would pray only together,
Alexandrian christians would pray only together
Thessalonian Christians would pray only together
etc.etc.etc.

Sounds like my Church during coffee hour.  We have the Greek table; the Romanian table; the Syrian table; the Chatacumen table; the visitor table; and the "favorites" table.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 01:23:18 AM by Psalti Boy » Logged
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,404


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2006, 04:43:08 PM »

what's the "favorite's table"??  Never heard of that one..but I think I have an idea...
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
sdcheung
it's as if..Saint Photios and Saint Mark Ephesus, has come back
Banned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,325


...even though Romania Falls, another will Rise...


« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2006, 04:48:37 PM »

"Favorites table"="Clergy table" and their favorite parishioners.
Logged


Keep Breed Mixing, and this Maine Coon Cat will be the last of it's kind. /\
No profanities in your sig line if you're going to post in the public forum.
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,404


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2006, 05:03:00 PM »

OOH...my dad never had that, but I seam to vaguely remember such things from visiting other parishes.  

Is this like an established thing??
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2006, 07:38:04 PM »

Sounds like my Church during coffee hour.  We have the Greek table; the Romanian table; the Syrian table; the Chatacumen table; the visitor table; and the "favorites" table.

I know how to solve this problem - get rid of the tables!
Logged
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2006, 12:37:20 AM »

First no pews. Now no tables! Po po, give that idea to an old calendar traditional orthodox parish. I'm sure they'll love it- after all Christ probably sat on the floor with his disciples many times  Cheesy
Logged
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2006, 01:08:17 AM »

First no pews. Now no tables! Po po, give that idea to an old calendar traditional orthodox parish. I'm sure they'll love it- after all Christ probably sat on the floor with his disciples many times  Cheesy

haha Cheesy

I didn't mean for the people to sit around on the floor.  Tongue

In the Methodist church I went to 11+ years ago, after church everyone met in the fellowship hall and there were some chairs set up alongside the walls and only a couple of table for people to sit at. How this worked was that the people moved around and actually socialized, so that there no groupings of cliques.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.153 seconds with 85 queries.