Landon77
Member
 Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Antiochian Western Orthodox in exile)
Posts: 308
|
 |
« on: February 16, 2006, 12:44:06 AM » |
|
I have a question regarding the practice of doing penance for someone else. I was reading a book on St. Seraphim of Sarov called Flame in the Snow: A Life of St. Serafim of Sarov by Julia de Beausobre. In this book, St. Serafim tells the men who crippled him (when they come back to beg for forgiveness and to ask a penance to carry out) that he is already doing their penance for them. So I guess my basi question is, "Is this widely practiced by Orthodox Christians?" It struck me as sounding very... Roman Catholic- not that that is automaticly a bad thing.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"How stands your mighty god? My God is stronger than he." -St. Boniface
|
|
|
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490
|
|
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2006, 01:11:14 AM » |
|
As the purpose of penance is to rebuild and uplift someone spiritually, and not to pay back some debt, the concept of doing penance for another person seems rather absurd. However, considering the example that you gave perhaps he saw that they were overly distraught and he needed to reassure them, or that they were not repentant and needed to make them feel guilty...I could see numerous pastoral reasons for such a statement.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
|
|
|
|
ozgeorge
|
|
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2006, 05:15:52 AM » |
|
When St. Nektarios of Aegina was the Director of the Rizarios Theological school in Athens, two of the students became involved in a fistfight. They were summoned to his office and he listened to both sides, and replied: "I have no choice but to punish myself" and gave orders to the school cook not to prepare any meals for the him. The startled boys, out of respect and love for the school director, were reconciled with one another so that the Saint would start eating again.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
|
|
|
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Domestikos tou thematos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 18,997
May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
|
|
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2006, 05:41:46 AM » |
|
It seems that none of the above statements are incongruous... the two saints attributed sin to themselves in the extreme case, followed through with a course of reconciliation themselves that also helped to move the primary parties involved to better reconciliation themselves, thus building up their bonds and ties through their ÃÂÂÆ’ÃÂÂ…νκαÄάβαÃιÂ....
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
|
|
|
|
ozgeorge
|
|
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2006, 07:00:21 AM » |
|
It seems that none of the above statements are incongruous... I think it is incongruous to say that "Penance" as understood by the Orthodox to be "epitemia"- medicine for the soul, is the same as "penance" as understood by Roman Catholics to be "satisfaction". Both St. Nektarios and St. Seraphim were actually applying an "epitemia" to heal the souls of those who had fallen into sin. By awakening Love in the sinners in both cases, they call them to repentance. So in fact, both St. Nektarios and St. Seraphim were really administering a penance (according to Orthodox understanding- "epitemia) on the others, rather than themselves, and they did this with great discernment. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
|
|
|
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Domestikos tou thematos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 18,997
May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
|
|
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2006, 08:01:35 AM » |
|
I normally try to stay away from the word penance specifically for that reason... It is one of the things seminary is teaching me well about - precision in language is important in order for people to understand. If one uses penance, then one will get the presuppositions that come with western "penance" versus "epitimia."
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
|
|
|
|
Meekle
|
|
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2006, 08:18:40 AM » |
|
I normally try to stay away from the word penance specifically for that reason... It is one of the things seminary is teaching me well about - precision in language is important in order for people to understand. If one uses penance, then one will get the presuppositions that come with western "penance" versus "epitimia."
And if you use epitmia, people will think you are speaking Klingon! That's not much of an improvement  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Domestikos tou thematos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 18,997
May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
|
|
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2006, 09:59:34 AM » |
|
Well, if the person I'm talking to is a shady Romulan, maybe their thinking that I speak Klingon will back them off (at least for a short time - long enough for me to get away).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
|
|
|
|
Meekle
|
|
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2006, 02:26:26 AM » |
|
Well, if the person I'm talking to is a shady Romulan, maybe their thinking that I speak Klingon will back them off (at least for a short time - long enough for me to get away).
Isn't the point to educate them in Church teachings instead of having a conspiracy theory that they are romulans?  |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Domestikos tou thematos
Offline
Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 18,997
May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
|
|
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2006, 09:30:01 AM » |
|
Isn't the point to educate them in Church teachings instead of having a conspiracy theory that they are romulans? Sorry man, just a joke about the whole Romulan thing. If it came down to it, I would probably spend the two or three mintues explaining the difference between epitimia and penance, for the benefit of whomever I'm speaking to. It will have the effect of getting them to appreciate the difference, while getting them to learn the word, since I'll probably say it7 or 8 times while explaining it... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
|
|
|
Landon77
Member
Offline
Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Antiochian Western Orthodox in exile)
Posts: 308
|
|
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2006, 01:57:17 PM » |
|
Well, if you would like to spend seven or eight minutes explaining it to me, I wouldn't mind.  Because my next question is going to be about how St. Seraphim (or is it Serafim) taught people to imagine things while praying, sort of like the mysteries of the Rosary. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"How stands your mighty god? My God is stronger than he." -St. Boniface
|
|
|
|
