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Ntinos
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« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2006, 05:42:07 AM »

Εξ άλλου η κατρακύλα που δεν σταματά με τίποτε, είναι σημάδι ότι του ετοιμάζεται ο δρόμος για να συγχυσθή η διάνοια των ανθρώπων, να μην ξεχωρίζουν το καλό από το κακό. ’Ενα κλίμα που ταιριάζει για να γεννηθεί ο άνθρωπος αυτός της απώλειας. ÃŽÅ“’ αυτό σημαίνει ότι δεν πρέπει να φεύγουμε μακρυά από την Εκκλησία, ούτε να μας παρασύρη ο κόσμος τηςε αμαρτίας, ούτως ώστε αν ο Αντίχρισδτος έλθη στην εποχή μας, να βγούμε κερδισμένοι, γιατί όποιοι τον αντιληφθούν και δεν θα έχουν πλανηθή όπως οι πολλοί, ασυτοί θα’ ναι οι μεγαλύτεροι άγιοι που έγιναν ποτέ. Ο Θεός να μας αξιώση, να ακούμε και να ακολουθούμε τις συμβουλές της επίσημης Εκκλησίας, γιατί αυτή είναι ο στύλος και το εδραίωμα της αληθείας, καθώς γράφει ο Απόστολος ÃŽ ÃƒÆ’ŽÂ±ÃÂÃŽÂ»ÃŽÂ¿Ãâ€š”.
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« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2006, 08:09:33 AM »

Here's what Ntinos said, curtousy of babelfish.altavista.com - translation from Greek to English (I don't have time before Liturgy to actually translate this myself):

 "From other you topple over that does not stop with nothing, is mark that for him is prepared the street in order to συγχυσθή the intellect of persons, they do not distinguish good from the villain. ' A climate that suits in order to is given birth ' this person of loss. With this it means that it should not we leave makrya' from the Church, neither us παρασύρη the world of τηςε sin, so that if Antichrist comes in our season, we come out gained, because that him conceive and will not have it was misleaded as the many, they will be the bigger Saints that became never. The God our claim, we hear and we follow the advices of official Church, because this is the pillar and εδραίωμα the truth, as writes the Apostle Paul"
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
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« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2006, 07:36:30 PM »

The famous quote lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind.  This is a list of numbers, I gave a list of names (of communist in leadership positions) so that the nationalites could be confirmed.  Ive trawled the internet for a good 50 minutes and I cant find any similar data, though I am a bit of a computer illiterate. Smiley  Can anyone else find any?

Well, with all the Holocaust deniers out there gumming up the works with their lies and misrepresentations, it's a lot of work to find good data. And a list of names of unknown provenance isn't really any better than statistics which at least appear to come from a legitimate historian.

It's tempting to seize upon the communists as a conspiracy because that is indisputable. It's that word "Jewish" that is the problem. It represents the failure to take our own sinfulness seriously, as though Russians and Ukrainians and Georgians (and while we're at it, representatives of every nation in Europe) weren't really capable of such evil. No, for that it would take a Jew.
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Serbian Patriot
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« Reply #138 on: February 20, 2006, 09:22:18 AM »

Well, with all the Holocaust deniers out there gumming up the works with their lies and misrepresentations, it's a lot of work to find good data.
Thats the second time you've mentioned the holocaust when replying to me.  Im not clear why, since I havent raised the issue, and I have certainly not denied it.  If and when I come up with evidence either way I will post it.  Certainly though it is a ridiculous assertion to claim that you cannot find good data because of holocaust deniers somehow 'gumming up the works'.  Surely this is an admission that mainstream historians do not even like to discuss the issue at hand.  If they were willing to objectively examine it, you would have an abundance of information to call upon.

And a list of names of unknown provenance isn't really any better than statistics which at least appear to come from a legitimate historian.
The names can be cross-checked relatively easily by looking through the relevant archives, since they were of course prominent leaders in the revolution.  You would be pushed however to launch an examination into the ethnic origins of hundreds of thousands of communist party members!


It's tempting to seize upon the communists as a conspiracy because that is indisputable. It's that word "Jewish" that is the problem.
It can only be a problem in so much as there is no truth in the assertion. 

It represents the failure to take our own sinfulness seriously,
I reject this idea, I am quite distressed that people can believe this.  Everyone is sinful, but this should not be used as some kind of shield to prevent people being held accountable for their actions.  You have a right to dismiss any injustices against yourself personally, but you do not have the right to dismiss injustices committed against others.  You cannot forget that bloody episode in history and play the moral superiority card.  Millions died, you have no right claim on their behalf that the matter is not worth investigating because we are sinful.  Failure to stand up for the truth against evil, is to side with evil.  Do not kid yourself that it is noble.  There is nothing to fear from the truth.

as though Russians and Ukrainians and Georgians (and while we're at it, representatives of every nation in Europe) weren't really capable of such evil. No, for that it would take a Jew.
You are muddying the waters here, we are not discussing hypothetical matters.  Any person or nation is capable of evil, however we are discussing who actually committed a particular evil.
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« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2006, 11:18:35 AM »

Thats the second time you've mentioned the holocaust when replying to me.  Im not clear why, since I havent raised the issue, and I have certainly not denied it.

It seems to me that you are more concerned now with the possiblity of guilt by association than what I actually said-- which was that the sheer number of such sites makes it difficult to find material that doesn't come from such a site.

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If and when I come up with evidence either way I will post it.  Certainly though it is a ridiculous assertion to claim that you cannot find good data because of holocaust deniers somehow 'gumming up the works'.  Surely this is an admission that mainstream historians do not even like to discuss the issue at hand.

Nothing of the kind. I simply do not have the time to go on a library fishing expedition, so I'm having to make do with what I can find on the net. And as usual, the principle of "bullhorns for everyone" is expressed in the multiplicity of sites by obsessive idiots who repeat all of each other's falsehoods and misrepresentations. Sites which attempt to debunk them are simply much fewer in number, because not nearly as many people are obsessed with debunking.

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It represents the failure to take our own sinfulness seriously,
I reject this idea, I am quite distressed that people can believe this.  Everyone is sinful, but this should not be used as some kind of shield to prevent people being held accountable for their actions.  You have a right to dismiss any injustices against yourself personally, but you do not have the right to dismiss injustices committed against others.  You cannot forget that bloody episode in history and play the moral superiority card.  Millions died, you have no right claim on their behalf that the matter is not worth investigating because we are sinful.
But the matter is not worth investigating, because most of "them" weren't sinful in this matter either.

Because the "them" here, of course, are Jews as a group. And Jews as a group didn't do this. A group of people, of whom perhaps a majority were Jews, did this, and by your reasoning here, their guilt is theirs alone, and doesn't devolve upon Jews in general.

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Failure to stand up for the truth against evil, is to side with evil.

And if so, you are patting yourself on the back for your noble stance.

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You are muddying the waters here, we are not discussing hypothetical matters.  Any person or nation is capable of evil, however we are discussing who actually committed a particular evil.

No, we aren't. The list of names is there, and having listed them, the evildoers are listed. It is your continuing effort to implicate the Jewish people as a whole that is the problem here.
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« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2006, 03:03:17 PM »

It seems to me that you are more concerned now with the possiblity of guilt by association than what I actually said-- which was that the sheer number of such sites makes it difficult to find material that doesn't come from such a site.
Surely if what you say is fact then mainstream history resources would have material on the matter.  You cannot claim that the internet is so clogged up with conspiracy sites that you cannot find any mainstream history on it.

Sites which attempt to debunk them are simply much fewer in number, because not nearly as many people are obsessed with debunking.
I am the one who is attempting to debunk the prevalent view, not you.  Surely I should be finding it harder than you to come accross relevant info.


I But the matter is not worth investigating, because most of "them" weren't sinful in this matter either.

Because the "them" here, of course, are Jews as a group. And Jews as a group didn't do this. A group of people, of whom perhaps a majority were Jews, did this, and by your reasoning here, their guilt is theirs alone, and doesn't devolve upon Jews in general.
You are right to an extent, the responsibility can only lie with those that committed the crime.  However the fact that the majority were Jews is not an irrelevant accident, it must have some significance.  When I say that the Ottomans are responsible for centuries of occupation and repression, everyone knows I am not saying every last inhabitant of the Ottoman empire was implicated in this injustice.  In this secular world people find the idea of group loyalty, group responsibility a difficult one to fathom.  People see things from an individualistic point of view.  Unfortunately looking at things in this way will prevent you from seeing the bigger picture.

No, we aren't. The list of names is there, and having listed them, the evildoers are listed. It is your continuing effort to implicate the Jewish people as a whole that is the problem here.

By your own admission the revolution was overwhelmingly carried out by Jews.  If the Muslims were to carry out a coup of some sort in France, then it would be a Muslim revolution, despite the fact that 90% of Muslims inside France had no part in it, and that 100% of Muslims outside of France had no part in it.
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« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2006, 10:47:56 PM »

Surely if what you say is fact then mainstream history resources would have material on the matter.  You cannot claim that the internet is so clogged up with conspiracy sites that you cannot find any mainstream history on it.

Of course I can, and I do. And actually, I did give you material from a mainstream source (second hand, to be sure, but hey). You more or less dismissed it out of hand.

Time has shown that the net is a great place to store primary documents and the like. On conspiracy theories it is basically pretty poor. There are a lot of people out there trying to get out "The Truth", and the forces of the orthodox standard viewpoint are generally not so excitable, and often enough refuse to condescend to reply.

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You are right to an extent, the responsibility can only lie with those that committed the crime.

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However the fact that the majority were Jews is not an irrelevant accident, it must have some significance.

Even leaving off that I don't believe the thesis, it need not have any significance.

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When I say that the Ottomans are responsible for centuries of occupation and repression, everyone knows I am not saying every last inhabitant of the Ottoman empire was implicated in this injustice.

Well, uh, the point is that "the Ottomans" means specifically "the political powers of that empire". Are "The Jews" a political organization? I don't think so.

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In this secular world people find the idea of group loyalty, group responsibility a difficult one to fathom.

I don't find it difficult, when the gruop acts as a group. But Jews do not act as a group, so it's really quite improper to lay responsibility upon the corporately.

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By your own admission the revolution was overwhelmingly carried out by Jews.

I don't admit it, and continue to deny it. But be that as it may....

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If the Muslims were to carry out a coup of some sort in France, then it would be a Muslim revolution, despite the fact that 90% of Muslims inside France had no part in it, and that 100% of Muslims outside of France had no part in it.

Ah, but let's take Al Qaida, which indeed is in some sense a Muslim conspiracy. But it is so precisely as an expression of Islamic sectarianism. It has a specifically religious meaning. The Russian revolution, by constrast, was specifically anti-Jewish in precisely that sense. Judaism was to pass away exactly as Christianity was to pass away. If there's a religion at the center of that revolution, it is Marxism, not Judaism.
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« Reply #142 on: February 21, 2006, 07:26:42 AM »

Speaking of holocaust denial...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4734648.stm


If the veracity of claims about the nature of heaven, of God and the creation of all living creatures can be challenged and debated then surely any historical event in recent memory or in the dim and distant past should be open to mature discussion.
No other episode in history has such legal protection and it behoves the Jewish community in each and every European nation where such a bizarre law exists to help bring about the end of this singularity.
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« Reply #143 on: February 21, 2006, 09:13:51 AM »

Speaking of holocaust denial...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4734648.stm


If the veracity of claims about the nature of heaven, of God and the creation of all living creatures can be challenged and debated then surely any historical event in recent memory or in the dim and distant past should be open to mature discussion.
No other episode in history has such legal protection and it behoves the Jewish community in each and every European nation where such a bizarre law exists to help bring about the end of this singularity.

While I disagree with the holocaust deniers, for better or worse it did seem to occur, I do believe that their right to believe and vocalize their opinion about the holocaust, or any historical or political event, is fundamental to the very concept of a free society. I said it before and I'll say it again, governments that maintain and enforce laws against political speech, no matter how distasteful, are in the same category as the Nazi German and Soviet Russian governments...the execution of their citizens is simply a corollary to their opposistion to the freedom of thought, which is their true sin.
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« Reply #144 on: February 21, 2006, 04:59:31 PM »

I do believe that their right to believe and vocalize their opinion about the holocaust, or any historical or political event, is fundamental to the very concept of a free society.
I agree. And this forum is not the Church, it is the world. So while in the Church, our "freedom" to say certain things and rewrite history is restricted, this is not the case in the world. Such "freedom of speech" does not exist in the Church- we are not free to blaspheme, we are not free to offend or scandalize others, we are not free to deny reality. But since this forum is not the Church, I've realised that the trick here is to just let things wash over. When people say things which are ridiculously over-simplified, prejudiced, bigotted and downright wrong, just let your mind wander. I do so now; I think about recipes for Lent. Nothing I say is going to change someone who has been brought up to hate a group simply because they are different, it's too ingrained and has become part of their being. Hate is a learned behaviour which will not be unlearned through discussion over the internet.
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« Reply #145 on: February 22, 2006, 08:29:53 AM »

I agree. And this forum is not the Church, it is the world. So while in the Church, our "freedom" to say certain things and rewrite history is restricted, this is not the case in the world.
You are trying to twist things.  The church does not restrict our freedom to rewrite history, unless of course one is lying.


Such "freedom of speech" does not exist in the Church- we are not free to blaspheme, we are not free to offend or scandalize others, we are not free to deny reality.
That is exactly what we are debating, the reality.  Examining a historical event is not a sin.

But since this forum is not the Church, I've realised that the trick here is to just let things wash over.
In other words ignore them when they expose you! Roll Eyes

When people say things which are ridiculously over-simplified, prejudiced, bigotted and downright wrong, just let your mind wander.
I try and expose them, each to their own I guess.

Nothing I say is going to change someone who has been brought up to hate a group simply because they are different, it's too ingrained and has become part of their being. Hate is a learned behaviour which will not be unlearned through discussion over the internet.
And you talk about oversimplification!  You have summed up the entire debate in one word: hate.  I have shown absolutely no hate towards anyone, and I challenge you to show me where I have.  No doubt this will go unanswered, if your past responses are anything to go by.
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« Reply #146 on: February 22, 2006, 03:14:50 PM »

I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations

And will you say the same thing about other ethnic groups like say, Serbs or Scots or Japanese or Maori etc etc?  And what of those goals and aspirations that are simply common to Human Beings: being able to live in peace with enough to eat and shelter, things like that?

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Well I wouldnt say it is just because they are not Christian.ÂÂ  I dont have a problem with people just because they do not share the same faith as me.ÂÂ  It is a case of them having a track record of actively undermining Christianity, and other gentiles for that matter.ÂÂ  I have a problem with anyone that looks after their own interests to the detriment of others.

As Christians had centuries of "actively undermining" Judaism?  And *Anyone* that looks after their own interest?  Do you look after your own interests?  What is the "Detriment"?  Just taking a parking place from someone else might be thinking of oneself to the detriment of others.

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Well obviously there can be no objection to people wanting to better their common plight.ÂÂ  As I have already said though, this right ends the moment you encroach on others rights.ÂÂ  

And who defines when someone else's rights are encroached on?  You seem to be expecting better behaviour from a group that has been abused and kept down then from those who have been in power.  How would the people who want to 'better their common plight' learn such altruism if they have not been show it by those in authority?  What if the slightest attempt by a minority to improve matters is looked upon by those in power as 'encroaching' on *their* rights by its mere existance? Women were told that their attempt to get the vote was wrong because they were trying to get same rights as men, they were encroaching where they did not belong.  By this idea,  Rosa Parks wasn't thinking of the "rights" of the white man who demanded she give up her seat on the bus.   Was the man thinking of *her* rights or did she not have any because she was an African-American woman and he wanted to sit down?  Who gets to decide?  If those who have been mistreating others, why would they allow any rights or betterment to the oppressed?

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I think its a very strange notion that the Jews or other communists for that matter, were trying to address evil.ÂÂ

Then you cannot concieve that the people in the Communist movement or the Jews who had suffered under the Tsars or the poor who supported the revolution *saw* the Russian system and government of the Tsar as evil.  You cannot try to put yourself in someone else's shoes and imagine that they were just as Human as you are and had the same sorrows and joys and were trying to end what *they* percieved as evil.

As to your quote, if what they had experienced has evil, they are returning an 'eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.  How does one learn mercy if one has not seen or experienced it?

Ebor
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« Reply #147 on: February 23, 2006, 05:51:21 AM »

I try and expose them, each to their own I guess.
Really? When I see someone saying or doing stupid, sinful things, I try to weave a blanket of love and prayer to cover them so the Lord doesn't see them and judge them. Each to their own I guess.
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« Reply #148 on: February 23, 2006, 06:26:43 AM »

Really? When I see someone saying or doing stupid, sinful things, I try to weave a blanket of love and prayer to cover them so the Lord doesn't see them and judge them. Each to their own I guess.
More like a blanket of disinformation, sarcasm, and disrepute. Tongue
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« Reply #149 on: February 23, 2006, 06:32:22 AM »

 Smiley
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