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Author Topic: I'm not sure where this "hot" topic should go...  (Read 13885 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2006, 05:15:50 PM »

Please reference the site or articles that you copy and paste. Or if you are going to copy something because it is "fact," at least make the effort to put it into your own words.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSjews.htm
And to be clear, my view is that had I been living in Russia at the beginning of last century, I too would have probably joined the Communists in a misguided effort to reform Russia. Tsar St. Nicholas is a holy martyr, but was a hopeless Tsar in my opinion, as demonstrated by his admitting Rasputin to the Court and treating him as a "staretz". When the economy was already failing due to the war and the poor were subsequently suffering even more, seeing my king entertaining and supporting a debauched nutter and his family would have made my blood boil.
And here's the logic I would have used to justify this to myself: Our Lord once broke the cleanliness laws by touching the funeral beir of a young man out of compassion for his widowed mother, and similarly, as "unclean" as the Communists were, if they are the only group speaking out for the oppressed poor, then touching something unclean for the sake of compassion for the oppressed may also be justified.
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« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2006, 05:25:11 PM »

And, of course, hindsight is 20/20.
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« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2006, 06:37:10 PM »

I agree that it has never been hidden, but you cannot deny that when THE holocaust is referred to, it is synonimous with Jewish suffering.  For instance in the states, Jewish organisations actively prevent other groups being represented in holocaust memorial museums.

I'm looking at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website, and while they emphasize that Jews were far and away the primary victims, they also point at Romanys (gypsies), German-Africans, the disabled, and several political and religious minorities as being persecuted in like manner.
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« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2006, 06:51:20 PM »

You are missing one key word here: NECESSARILY.  Jews here and Jews there do not NECESSARILY add up to a Jewish conspiracy.  But we cannot, as you would have us do, exclude any possiblility of this being the case.

Well, yeah, I can. You are acting as if there is positive evidence. You can't produce it, so you lean on lame words like "necessarily". To convince me that the Bolsheviks were a Jewish conspiracy, you're going to need a lot more than evidence of numbers. What I see is a conspiracy in which Jews were disproportionately represented-- or maybe not even that, given that (perhaps) Jews were more numerous in the proper social class and had ample grievance to hate the established government. The thing that I don't see is that the October Revolution formed out of a sense of Jewish ethnic identity. What I see instead is a conspiracy in whcih this identity seems not to matter at all. Lenin was Russian, Trostsky was Jewish, and Stalin was Georgian, when it comes to that.

Quote
Im sure it took much organisational and intellectual skill to carry out the revolution.

So you're saying that, on the whole, us gentiles are too stupid and disorganized to conspire?(Then again, seeing how some of the Slavic ethnic events get run....  Wink )
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« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2006, 08:11:08 PM »

Quote
Well its hardly a surprise that the red army was compromised for the most part by Russians is it?  The list referred to leaders and instigators of the revolution.

That the red army was compromised of Russians is precisely my point.  It was Russians who carried out the atrocities of the Soviet regime.  Since we are on the topic of Poland, the stereotype of all Jews being communists was quite common there as well.  Jan Gross adresses that in his book Neighbors - collaboration with the NKVD was was more common among ethnic Poles than Polish Jews.  Had the Soviet Regime been merely a giant Jewish plot, one would have expected all the Polish Jews to have joined the Red Army, no?  While many sympathized towards that cause, that is understandable considering the other power controling Poland at that time, for obvious reasons.

Quote
No doubt there are many to blame, Orthodox and non-Orthodox.  But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement.

Maybe some "people" don't.  I don't deny there was involvement by a high number of Jews in the October Revolution.  To say that means there is a vast Jewish conspiracy is to assume the truth of you premise before historical investigation.  There are other factors to consider in why so many Jews were involved, social class and previous position in society under the Tsars.  And of course none of it would have been possible were it not for many Russians who also believed in the revolutionary cause.

Quote
If I were to speculate as to why this irrational rejection of facts were the the case, I could only conclude that it is as a result of a guilt trip induced by years of western media propaganda.  Why else would the topic be taboo, and why else would the Jewish holocaust during WW2 achieve some kind of religious significance in the secular west.  The western media does not even dare to recognise the Armenian holocaust by the Turks as 'A' holocaust, yet the Jewish holocaust is referred to as 'THE' holocaus

Maybe you are so resentfull of this and see through it so well because the Serbs have been trying to cast themselves as innocent victims for years and never the aggressors - but I might add they have failed miserably at the PR game whereas the Jews haven't.  While some Jews have definetely turned this into The Holocaust Inudstry (the title of a book on this topic, btw) that is really irrelevant to the role of Jews as a part of a Jewish conspiracy in the formation of the Soviety regime.  Also to link these events presupposes that the Jews living within Russia formed a single community with those of other parts of Eastern and Central Europe - which was especially untrue at the time of the revolution and even through WWII. 
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2006, 07:16:52 AM »

Why is it that whenever we are on the topic of the Jews, where it is suggested that they were not all innocent little lambs to the slaughter, someone always has to start invoking scriptural references to love.

Because God is Love, as the Beloved Apostle reveals to us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our enemies.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our neighbour as ourselves.
Because our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love one another in the same way that He loves us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ told us that if we Love Him, we must keep His commandments.
There is no getting around Love if we are going to make any claim to be Christians. Love is central to the Gospel life. And if we are going to ignore the commandment to Love, then fine, but don't pretend to do so in the name of Christianity or Christ, otherwise, we will heap even more sin on sin. Christians who turn their backs on Our Lord Jesus Christ's commandment to Love turn their backs on Christ. And if we do this, then there is no need for a "Jewish conspiracy" to destroy Christianity- we have successfully destroyed it ourselves.
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« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2006, 07:30:11 AM »

I'm looking at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website, and while they emphasize that Jews were far and away the primary victims, they also point at Romanys (gypsies), German-Africans, the disabled, and several political and religious minorities as being persecuted in like manner.

And I notice on the website that the "Wexner Learning Cente" at the Museum is currently holding an exhibition about the Genocide in Darfur entitled "Genocide Emergency — Darfur, Sudan: Who Will Survive Today?"....A Holocaust Museum speaking out about genocide towards Christians? Surely not! Wink
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 07:30:48 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2006, 07:32:01 AM »

OzGeorge... your post saddens me. Have you not heard that you aren't supposed to start a sentence with "because?" Yet there you are starting 5, yes, I repeat, 5 whole sentences with that deaded word. Is outrage!

Besides that, great post  Wink Grin
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« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2006, 07:32:53 AM »

Have you not heard that you aren't supposed to start a sentence with "because?"
Because why? Wink
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« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2006, 07:33:54 AM »

Because why? Wink

Be wary, the word usage nazis may be coming for you...
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« Reply #100 on: February 16, 2006, 07:38:48 AM »

Be wary, the word usage nazis may be coming for you...
And I'm sure they're not the only Nazis who may have a problem with me. Wink
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« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2006, 07:42:00 AM »

And I'm sure they're not the only Nazis who may have a problem with me. Wink

I entirely agree with that statement  Grin
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« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2006, 09:08:30 AM »

And to be clear, my view is that had I been living in Russia at the beginning of last century, I too would have probably joined the Communists in a misguided effort to reform Russia.
Doesnt really surprise me!
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« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2006, 09:12:44 AM »

I'm looking at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website, and while they emphasize that Jews were far and away the primary victims, they also point at Romanys (gypsies), German-Africans, the disabled, and several political and religious minorities as being persecuted in like manner.
Check out Norman Finkelsteins book, 'The Holocaust Industry', if you get the chance.  It is he who says that Jewish groups have prevented others from being represented in Holocaust memorial centres.
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« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2006, 09:34:15 AM »

Well, yeah, I can. You are acting as if there is positive evidence.
Not at all, I am acting as if there is a possibility that this is true, and that it may therefore be considered.¦nbsp; ¦nbsp;

You can't produce it, so you lean on lame words like "necessarily".
Im just leaving options open, instead of condemning others because of a knee-jerk reaction from years of brainwashing.

What I see is a conspiracy in which Jews were disproportionately represented-- or maybe not even that, given that (perhaps) Jews were more numerous in the proper social class and had ample grievance to hate the established government.
Jews were not more numerous in any social class at the time of the revolution.¦nbsp;


The thing that I don't see is that the October Revolution formed out of a sense of Jewish ethnic identity.



 What I see instead is a conspiracy in whcih this identity seems not to matter at all.
Lets see what Jewish publications at the time have to say:
"There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself, in the fact that so
many Jews are Bolsheviks, in the fact that the ideals of Bolshevism
at many points are consonant with the finest ideals of Judaism." --
London Jewish Chronicle, 4 April 1919.

"What Jewish idealism and Jewish discontent have so powerfully
contributed to produce in Russia, the same historic qualities of the
Jewish mind are tending to promote in other countries." -- New York
American Hebrew, 20 September 1920.





 Lenin was Russian, Trostsky was Jewish, and Stalin was Georgian, when it comes to that.
Well Lenin also had Jewish ancestry.

So you're saying that, on the whole, us gentiles are too stupid and disorganized to conspire?(Then again, seeing how some of the Slavic ethnic events get run....¦nbsp; Wink )
No you misunderstand me, I was merely alluding to the fact that the revolution was not a spontaneous act by some poor disenfanchised workers or farmers.¦nbsp; It took considerable planning and financing, including outside the borders of Russia.
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« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2006, 09:53:23 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107539#msg107539 date=1140048668]
That the red army was compromised of Russians is precisely my point.  It was Russians who carried out the atrocities of the Soviet regime. 
[/quote]
No it was not just Russians, it was most ethnic groups from the Soviet Union.  Men at the top who not only allowed it but encouraged it are to blame.  People like bloodthirsy propaganda minister Ilya Ehrenburg:

"The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means
to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us
to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited.
We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you
have wasted that day ... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet,
kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the
front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the
meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian
and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another --
there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do
not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of
Germans killed by you. Kill the German -- that is your grandmother's
request. Kill the German -- that is your child's prayer. Kill the
German -- that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not
let through. Kill."


[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107539#msg107539 date=1140048668]
 ÃƒÆ’‚  Had the Soviet Regime been merely a giant Jewish plot, one would have expected all the Polish Jews to have joined the Red Army, no?  [/quote]
I cannot imagine anything more illogical or naive.  For the sake of argument, assuming there was a giant Jewish plot, if they were in control of the power structure, why on earth would they then decide to become cannon fodder, when they can just pull the strings from the top?

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107539#msg107539 date=1140048668]
Maybe you are so resentfull of this and see through it so well because the Serbs have been trying to cast themselves as innocent victims for years and never the aggressors - but I might add they have failed miserably at the PR game whereas the Jews haven't.
[/quote]
I am not at all resentfull of anything but the refusal to consider ideas out of blind ideological reasons.  We Serbs have commited a lot of sins for which we have and will be punished, not quite sure why that is relevant though.  You guys seem a bit obssessed with analysing peoples motives instead of the facts.


 
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« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2006, 10:03:42 AM »

Because God is Love, as the Beloved Apostle reveals to us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our enemies.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our neighbour as ourselves.
Because our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love one another in the same way that He loves us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ told us that if we Love Him, we must keep His commandments.
There is no getting around Love if we are going to make any claim to be Christians. Love is central to the Gospel life. And if we are going to ignore the commandment to Love, then fine, but don't pretend to do so in the name of Christianity or Christ, otherwise, we will heap even more sin on sin. Christians who turn their backs on Our Lord Jesus Christ's commandment to Love turn their backs on Christ. And if we do this, then there is no need for a "Jewish conspiracy" to destroy Christianity- we have successfully destroyed it ourselves.

Indeed, now contrast this with the ideology of the communists who you think you would have joined had you been around at the time.

"Terror as the demonstration of the will and strength of the working
class is historically justified, precisely because the proletariat
was able to break the political will of the Intelligentsia, pacify
the professional men of various categories and work, and gradually
subordinate them to its own aims within the fields of their
specialties." -- Trotsky, Izvestia 10 January 1919.

"Blood and mercilessness must be our
slogans." --Trotsky, International Communist Congress in Moscow

"We will make our hearts cruel, hard and immovable, so that no mercy
will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a
sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea.
Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of
hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their
own blood! For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinoviev and
Volodarsky, let there be floods of blood of the bourgeois -- more
blood! As much as possible!"--Hirsch Apfelbaum (aka Zinoviev), Krasnaya Gazeta (1 September 1918)

"This is unheard of! The energy and mass
nature of the terror must be encouraged!" -- Lenin, June 1918 reprimanding the Leningrad Soviet for being too genteel in their treatment of opponents

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It beggars belief that a Christian could possibly think that the communist cause was something that would have inspired him to join had he been alive at the time.

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« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2006, 10:49:05 AM »

This topic is getting close to going over the line from legitimate discussion to personal attacks.  Please keep the discussion about issues and not personal or I will lock the thread.
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« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2006, 11:47:21 AM »

You guys seem a bit obssessed with analysing peoples motives instead of the facts.

LOL...now THAT is the probably the most insightful thing that has been said by anyone on this thread.  Cheesy
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« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2006, 12:37:27 PM »

What's interesting to me is that it's not just in Russia where a disproportionate amount of Jews were revolutionary marxists. As Churchill mentioned (in my earlier post), many leading communists worldwide were Jews. Interestingly, Jews themselves, at least in some capacity, admit their role. In the 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica under the entry for "Communism" you can read: "The Communist Movement and ideology played an important part In Jewish life, particularly in the  1920s, 1930s and during and after World War II."

And

"Communist trends became widespread in virtually all Jewish communities. In some countries, Jews became the leading element in the legal and illegal Communist Parties.."

And

"Individual Jews played an important role in the early stages of Bolshevism and the Soviet Regime"

The encyclopdia also mentions how Russian revolutionary Jews were encouraged to change their names so as not to seem too alien to Russian people and thereby win greater trust.
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« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2006, 01:13:20 PM »

I'm going to toss out some points for consideration and to clarify terms/ideas? 

What do people here mean by a person is "Jewish"?  Is it a believer in and follower of the tenets of the Faith of Judaism?  Is it an ethnic group?  If so, does having that in a person's background somehow "trump" other 'eths'?  How much if so?  Any?

"Lenin also had Jewish ancestry" Did he identify himself as a Jew?  as a Russian? Why does his ancestry matter compared to his own deeds?  Is this somehow to show that there is a genetic basis for something?

What are the objections to "Jews" that have been seen in some threads and on other sites?  Is it because they are not Christian?  Is it a matter of religious belief? 

The religious Jews that I know say that if a Jew converts to Christianity then they aren't a Jew any more but a Christian. So some see it as religous.  But Edith Stein, who had converted to RC and was a nun was hauled off to the camps by the Nazis.  They saw it as inate or genetic, I guess.

Bogo's earlier post about Jews working for things to eliminate "anti-Jewish" views or deeds or social structures had me think: "What's wrong with that?"  African-Americans have been working to get rid of things like Jim Crow laws and other prejudices.  Groups of mostly women have worked and rallied and planned and protested to change how they were treated.  There are the records of centuries of ill-treatment and cruelty addressed to Jews in Europe; why *wouldn't* some who had gotten some education and a chance to improve matters want to eliminate evil addressed to their group?

Ebor


Why would there be more concern about a Jewish "Conspiracy" as opposed to a Tatar Conspiracy, or a Georgian Conspiracy or a Lithuanian one (thinking of other nationalities/ethnicities involved in the Russian Revolution)?
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« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2006, 01:15:31 PM »

The encyclopdia also mentions how Russian revolutionary Jews were encouraged to change their names so as not to seem too alien to Russian people and thereby win greater trust.

And Stalin changed his name, too. 

If you want people to follow you, you have to connect with them. Names are one way.

Ebor
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« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2006, 01:19:48 PM »

If I might add one more question to Ebor's: If a disproportionate number of Jews participated in the Revelution, could this not have been brought about because of the disproportionate degree of ill treatment that Jews received in Tsarist Russia? Put another way, if you slap people around, why are you suprised when they take advantage of a chance to take you out of power?
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« Reply #113 on: February 16, 2006, 01:24:25 PM »

Check out Norman Finkelsteins book, 'The Holocaust Industry', if you get the chance.  It is he who says that Jewish groups have prevented others from being represented in Holocaust memorial centres.

Yet the link provided shows that others *are* represented at at least some of them.  They are not being ignored.  

Offering counterviews and data and opinions to yours and not agreeing with your ideas or interpretations is not the same thing as a " refusal to consider ideas out of blind ideological reasons".

No one is arguing that there were not persons of Jewish ancestry involved in the Russian revolution.  That is historical fact.  But the interpretation of such facts can be called to question.    And it's the "Conspiracy" part that is being questioned.  

Why would there be a *Jewish* Conspiracy?  Religious reasons? Why?  Political reasons?  If so, what politics?  Rebelling against cruelty and maltreatment has driven many such revolts.

Ebor
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« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2006, 01:42:44 PM »

I'm going to toss out some points for consideration and to clarify terms/ideas? 

What do people here mean by a person is "Jewish"?  Is it a believer in and follower of the tenets of the Faith of Judaism?  Is it an ethnic group?  If so, does having that in a person's background somehow "trump" other 'eths'?  How much if so?  Any?

"Lenin also had Jewish ancestry" Did he identify himself as a Jew?  as a Russian? Why does his ancestry matter compared to his own deeds?  Is this somehow to show that there is a genetic basis for something?

What are the objections to "Jews" that have been seen in some threads and on other sites?  Is it because they are not Christian?  Is it a matter of religious belief? 

The religious Jews that I know say that if a Jew converts to Christianity then they aren't a Jew any more but a Christian. So some see it as religous.  But Edith Stein, who had converted to RC and was a nun was hauled off to the camps by the Nazis.  They saw it as inate or genetic, I guess.

Bogo's earlier post about Jews working for things to eliminate "anti-Jewish" views or deeds or social structures had me think: "What's wrong with that?"  African-Americans have been working to get rid of things like Jim Crow laws and other prejudices.  Groups of mostly women have worked and rallied and planned and protested to change how they were treated.  There are the records of centuries of ill-treatment and cruelty addressed to Jews in Europe; why *wouldn't* some who had gotten some education and a chance to improve matters want to eliminate evil addressed to their group?

Ebor


Why would there be more concern about a Jewish "Conspiracy" as opposed to a Tatar Conspiracy, or a Georgian Conspiracy or a Lithuanian one (thinking of other nationalities/ethnicities involved in the Russian Revolution)?


Here's one man's opinion.

March 27, 2005
Commentaries on Literature About the Jews(3)

Kevin MacDonald:The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements, Published by Praeger in 1994; reissued by 1st books in 2002.

Kevin MacDonald contends that "intellectual activity in the service of evolutionary goals has been a characteristic of Judaism dating from the ancient world," and the third volume of his trilogy on the Jews argues the case by examining several intellectual movements in which Jews played a dominant role: Anthropology as developed by Franz Boas and his school; Psychoanalysis developed by Sigmund Freud; and the Frankfurt School of Social Research (also known as the Congress for Cultural Freedom) developed by Theodore Adorno, and Max Horkeimer, with Erich Fromm, Hannah Arendt, and others.

Framing these social and intellectual movements is the larger question of the Jewish critique of gentile culture and the enormous investment of Jewish lobbying groups and influence of public opinion to favor large-scale immigration of non-European groups into the USA and other Western societies. Concerning the general "culture of critique," the embrace of Marxism by large numbers of Jews and the over-representation of Jews in Russian Bolshevism is examined. This topic has been more recently taken up by Yuri Slezkine in his recent book, The Jewish Century [Princeton, 2004]

An article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer reminds us that the question of Jewish ethnicity remains of vital importance to many Jews. Describing the adoption by many Jewish couples of Asian infants - mostly girls, and mostly Chinese - the article mentions that, for many Jews, the practice forces them to confront 'what a Jewish kid looks like.' The author of a book on the widepread practice of Asian adoptions remarked that such children may face prejudice within the Jewish community itself -- "We should expect it," he said, "It would be foolish of us not to acknowledge that race is an issue in our culture."

Kevin MacDonald is an evolutionary psychologist at the University of California, Long Beach, and he became interested in Judaism as a "collective evolutionary strategy" that merited study. His first book, A People That Shall Dwell Alone: Judaism as a Group Evolutionary Strategy was an evolutionary study of Judaism, and the second, Separation and Its Discontents: Toward an Evolutionary Theory of anti-Semitism presented an evolutionary theory of anti-Semitism. The third and final volume under review here presents the several 20th century intellectual movements, spearheaded by people who strongly identified themselves as Jews, as another variant of the evolutionary strategy, as many of them, either overtly or covertly, saw these movements as serving Jewish interests. Their intellectual advocacy was couched in a language of moral universalism that disguised moral particularism -- i.e., a way to serve particular interests of Jews. Thus the study of such movements becomes inevitably involved with issues of deception or self-deception.

The Culture of Critique is a portent of what I suspect will become a passionate debate in the next phase of intellectual history -- that of coming to grips with "how the Western world has become Judaized." Knowledge of this fact is certainly nothing new, although any expressions that this development may not be altogether positive are considered de trop. Paul Johnson's History of the Jews, a book entirely favorable to its subject, speaks of this "Judaization" in the realm of finance. Johnson remarks that

    "It was the unconscious collective instinct of the Jews to depersonalize finance and to rationalize the general economic process... The Jews could do this because while intensely conservative (as a rule) within their own narrow and isolated world, they had no share in or emotional commitment to society as a whole, and so could watch its old traditions, methods and institutions being demolished without a pang -- could, indeed, play a leading role in the process of destruction. They were thus natural capitalist entrepreneurs." (Italics mine.)

Kevin MacDonald picks up the note, but plays a less complimentary tune. Where Paul Johnson sees anti-Semitism as the perverse habit of Christianity, MacDonald sees it as arising primarily from conflicts of interest and loyalty. He points to the inevitable double standard of Jewish rationalism, when it condemned racial bias in gentile society while overlooking its own. In Weimar Germany anti-Semitism was fueled by the perception that Jews attempted to undermine gentile social cohesion while remaining highly committed to a cohesive group themselves. To acknowledge this social tension is not to jutify the Nazi persecution of the Jews. It is only to begin to take a step towards understanding it.

Leftist ideologies, couched in the language of moral universalism, appealed to Jews because it was a way of minimizing Jew-gentile differences while allowing the Jews to preserve their group identity. Thus radical movements became a form of "crypto-Judaism" -- For "Jews can remain Jews because being a Jew is no longer important." The Jewish dominance of the Left, especially the Old Left, may have been a factor in causing it to be less effective in the recruitment of the gentile working class. In any case, the Left in the USA appears to be a scattered and a spent force, and the Jewish Old Left has metamorphosed - metastatized - into the neoconservative New Right. The spent force of progressivist thought in the US has continued to sink deeper into the mire of atomism that caused it to be rejected by many Americans. Abortion, same sex marriage, and feminism are all destructive of the social bonds of gentile society. "Radical individualism among gentiles," as MacDonald comments, "is an excellent prescription for the continuation of Judaism as a cohesive group." That is because the high-investment parenting and strong group cohesion of Jews are relatively unaffected by such atomizing and disintegrating forces that are tearing America apart. It is no wonder that "white America" pulled back in revulsion, no wonder they voted for George Bush, even against their interests. But "white America" rejected such an atomized leftism only to embrace a fundamentalist and Zionized Christianity. Truly, this was a diabolic exchange!

The Culture of Critique is written in the sober language of social science. But it is perhaps a harbinger of things to come. The Holocaust Cult prevents the open discussion of Jewish ethnocentrism while it memorializes the failed ideology of German racialism. Sooner or later people will demand that these monuments to Hitler be pulled down, and that Jews likewise repudiate the racialist element in their own faith.

A "culture of critique" analysis needs to be done of feminism, that daughter of Marxism -- "recycled class war adjusted for gender," as Henry Makow puts it. In its sheer destructive power, feminism has been more effective in American society even than ideologies of class or race war. Doublethink, deception and double standards have characterized the modern feminist movement ever since Betty Friedan compared the lot of the American housewife to that of a concentration camp victim. I don't know if anyone has ever done a study of the proportion of Jewish women in the feminist movement, especially its leaders. That study might prove to be very revealing. In my view feminism is mainly a masked critique of the patriarchalist and anti-womanist disposition of Judaism. For Jewish women to have criticized it would have been too threatening - and even, with the strong tendency of Jews to close ranks and eschew ethnic self-criticism -- it would have been unthinkable. Hence the critique of the "patriarchy" was displaced to gentile society.

In any case, feminism has led to the 'economization' of womanhood -- that is, to the subjugation of the feminine to impersonal economic forces. This has resulted in a marked decline of mothering and parenting skills and commitments in gentile society, as well as a spiritual loss of womanhood as a potential reservoir of moral influence. American society is no less "male- dominated" than it was in 1950. If anything it is more so, even though many women have achieved high incomes and professional standing. Had those tendencies been allowed to develop naturally, which in the pre-radical feminist age they showed every sign of doing, women might have been less inclined to reject the inner dignity and reticence which so often inspired the moral power of their female forebears.
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« Reply #115 on: February 16, 2006, 02:48:07 PM »

  "Lenin also had Jewish ancestry" Did he identify himself as a Jew?  as a Russian? Why does his ancestry matter compared to his own deeds?  Is this somehow to show that there is a genetic basis for something?
I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations, regardless of their religous beliefs.

What are the objections to "Jews" that have been seen in some threads and on other sites?  Is it because they are not Christian?  Is it a matter of religious belief? 
Well I wouldnt say it is just because they are not Christian.  I dont have a problem with people just because they do not share the same faith as me.  It is a case of them having a track record of actively undermining Christianity, and other gentiles for that matter.  I have a problem with anyone that looks after their own interests to the detriment of others.

The religious Jews that I know say that if a Jew converts to Christianity then they aren't a Jew any more but a Christian. So some see it as religous.  But Edith Stein, who had converted to RC and was a nun was hauled off to the camps by the Nazis.  They saw it as inate or genetic, I guess.
Although a Jewish convert would obviously still ethnically be a Jew, they have effectively permanently cut off their ties to the Jewish community and assimilated with the host community.


Bogo's earlier post about Jews working for things to eliminate "anti-Jewish" views or deeds or social structures had me think: "What's wrong with that?" 
Well obviously there can be no objection to people wanting to better their common plight.  As I have already said though, this right ends the moment you encroach on others rights.  I hardly think that it is just that dozens of millions of Russians were killed as a result of this revolution, just so that a minority group could advance its own agenda.

  There are the records of centuries of ill-treatment and cruelty addressed to Jews in Europe; why *wouldn't* some who had gotten some education and a chance to improve matters want to eliminate evil addressed to their group?
I think its a very strange notion that the Jews or other communists for that matter, were trying to address evil.  Not only did they create infinitely more then there was to start with, but as I have shown, they never had any intention of addressing it.  What can be more evil than the following quote that I have already given?

"We will make our hearts cruel, hard and immovable, so that no mercy
will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a
sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea.
Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of
hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their
own blood! For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinoviev and
Volodarsky, let there be floods of blood of the bourgeois -- more
blood! As much as possible!"

Why would there be more concern about a Jewish "Conspiracy" as opposed to a Tatar Conspiracy, or a Georgian Conspiracy or a Lithuanian one (thinking of other nationalities/ethnicities involved in the Russian Revolution)?
Well fundamentally if we are starting from scratch, there is no more concern about a Jewish conspiracy than a Tatar one.  The only thing that must influence our concern is the evidence.  I only have more concern about a Jewish conspiracy because I believe there is more evidence to support that claim.
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« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2006, 02:52:33 PM »

Put another way, if you slap people around, why are you suprised when they take advantage of a chance to take you out of power?
Well by the same token, why are you surprised when I object to my Orthodox Russian brothers being slapped around for more than half a century.  All I do is object, these people commited immeasurable evil to further their goals.
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« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2006, 03:33:51 PM »

Here's one man's opinion.

Thank you for the passage from Mr. MacDonald. I will look it over. ¦nbsp;But my questions are not what other people or scholars mean when they write of a "Jew" but what do *You* and other poster here mean in their own words.

Also, some of his ideas about the Jewish People are perhaps not only seen (if they are at all) with that group. ¦nbsp;It is not all that uncommon for a homogenous group to see things in others that they do not see in themselves, like seeing another's sins but not our own writ large. ¦nbsp;Japanese culture generally sees itself as homogenous and reading the history of how it dealt with other cultures can be very interesting. Then there's seeing the bad deeds of another's Church and not any that one's own may have done. ¦nbsp;This passage from your quote:

"Their intellectual advocacy was couched in a language of moral universalism that disguised moral particularism -- i.e., a way to serve particular interests of Jews. Thus the study of such movements becomes inevitably involved with issues of deception or self-deception."

Might very well apply to all many of Human groups and organizations. ¦nbsp;Have you read "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer? ¦nbsp;It has some good ideas about being part of a group and what that can do to a person.

Quote
Kevin MacDonald picks up the note, but plays a less complimentary tune. Where Paul Johnson sees anti-Semitism as the perverse habit of Christianity, MacDonald sees it as arising primarily from conflicts of interest and loyalty. He points to the inevitable double standard of Jewish rationalism, when it condemned racial bias in gentile society while overlooking its own.

I would suggest that "conflicts of interest and loyalty" are hardly limited to Christians vs. Jews. Such a prejudice and ill-treatment of others may be seen in the case of the "Burakumin" and "Koreans" in Japan. ¦nbsp;They are classes of people who have native born but are treated differently. ¦nbsp; And double standards are not limited to this area either. ¦nbsp;

Quote
In Weimar Germany anti-Semitism was fueled by the perception that Jews attempted to undermine gentile social cohesion while remaining highly committed to a cohesive group themselves.

What examples of this undermining are there? What "cohesion" was there and what was it based on? I wonder if the Civil Rights Movement in the US might have been said by someone to have tried to undermine American Culture in the 40's-60's?

Quote
A "culture of critique" analysis needs to be done of feminism, that daughter of Marxism

And now I will ask "What do You mean when you write "Feminism"? ¦nbsp;The roots of that movement are much earlier then Marx, it did not spring full grown in the 1960's.

Quote
I don't know if anyone has ever done a study of the proportion of Jewish women in the feminist movement, especially its leaders.

Starting from when? ¦nbsp;Margaret Brent in 1647 Maryland could be counted an early 'feminist' and was English Catholic. ¦nbsp;Mary Wollstonecraft was English and not of any Jewish ancestry. ¦nbsp;Lucy Stone, Susan B. Anthony, Amelia Bloomer and the 19th Century American "feminists" weren't Jewish. ¦nbsp;Jeannette Rankin, 1st woman in the US Congress (from Montana) was not Jewish. ¦nbsp;One could start looking at more and more with the Suffragists in England and the Women's Peace Movement in the US and etc etc, but what is your point in this question?

Quote
... with the strong tendency of Jews to close ranks and eschew ethnic self-criticism -- it would have been unthinkable.

And have any here self-criticized our own 'eth' today? ¦nbsp;I submit that this is a Human trait not a uniquely "Jewish" one. ¦nbsp;Also, I've seen plenty of sniping and arguing amongst Jews and Gentiles and RCs and any other group. ¦nbsp;People tend to get in disagreements.

Quote
In any case, feminism has led to the 'economization' of womanhood -- that is, to the subjugation of the feminine to impersonal economic forces.

"Led to"?? ¦nbsp;Women didn't work before the mid-20th Century? ¦nbsp;The mill-girls in 19th Century England and American were 'subjugated' to economic forces. ¦nbsp;Farm wives and ranchwomen in the West did and do the work at hand to survive and support the family and would probably not fit someones idea of "feminine behaviour" ¦nbsp;The Japanese Peasent women who had to labour to plant the rice so that it all went to the Daimyo for taxes would seem to be subjugated to an impersonal economic force. There are millenia of female labourers and servants and more all over this planet who had to work along with males (who were equally subjugated) to survive.

Have you ever read "Vindication of the Rights of Women" by Mary Wollstonecraft? ¦nbsp;Some of the arguments she was answering in 1792 are still being put forth today.

Quote
This has resulted in a marked decline of mothering and parenting skills and commitments in gentile society, as well as a spiritual loss of womanhood as a potential reservoir of moral influence.

Could you please give some examples to illustrate this assertion?

Quote
American society is no less "male- dominated" than it was in 1950. If anything it is more so, even though many women have achieved high incomes and professional standing. Had those tendencies been allowed to develop naturally, which in the pre-radical feminist age they showed every sign of doing, women might have been less inclined to reject the inner dignity and reticence which so often inspired the moral power of their female forebears.

Develop "Naturally"? ¦nbsp;What does that mean? How is the last 200 years not "natural"? ¦nbsp; ¦nbsp;One of the aims of the early women's movement was to be treated with the dignity due a Human Being rather then as children or incompetants. ¦nbsp;What inner dignity is there in being patronized or abused? ¦nbsp;As to reticence, was that of the "female forebears" because they did not speak out or because they *could* not?

But now we have gone off on a tangent....

Ebor
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« Reply #118 on: February 16, 2006, 04:18:51 PM »

Ebor,
Excellent reply- thank you. The points you brought up do need to be applied to the picture Prof. MacDonald has tried to paint. So...as for my opinion. I do believe that "Jewishness" is a combination of both the religious and ethnic. Where the religious aspect comes from is easy enough to see. The ethnic should be just as easy to see, especially in a place like Israel where Jewishness is defined by ethnic terms. As I've brought up here before- is there an religious examination a Jew must take before coming to settle in Israel? Israel is an ethnically based state. I've also brought up the point here that many leading Zionists celebrated the fall of the Weimar Republic and the rise to power of the National Socialists because of the National Socialist emphasis on race. Finally Jews would not be tempted by assimilation in German/European culture. Even the Nuremburg Laws were praised by Zionists who stood behind an end to mixed marriages with the goyum. So, it does seem that Jews identify themselves in ethnic terms.
I think the problem with ethnic Jews arises from their diaspora mentality. Unlike the Koreans you mention, Jews are 1.)scattered throughout the world, 2.)Historically have not wanted to assimilate, 3.)Are surrounded by cultures which, probably due to this lack of assimilation and clash of culture, have become hostile to them.  As Prof. MacDonald points out, it only seems natural that thousands of years of this lack of assimilation coupled with a "chosen people" mentality and a culture which is quite different from the prevailing culture which surrounds them, will lead to an evolutionary strategy to make their surroundings safer and more beneficial to them. It's interesting to see that powerful Jewish lobbying groups have pushed for non-European immigration to America and forced diversity while at the very same time keeping their insular and ethnically based world-view. The rest of our "white" or "Christian" culture is apparently supposed to stand behind the diversity and tolerance initiatives of people like Foxman of the ADL while Jews are told to do just the opposite in practice, and therefore not sullying the pure race of the "chosen".  It only makes sense that Jews should be behind such initiatives seeing that an ethnically or religiously homogonous culture has historically been the deadliest thing for them. If the culture which surrounds them cannot find an ethnic or religious common bond Jews will not be ganged up on. So, we get things like Marx's crazy ideas of "equality", immigration policy in the US which creates ethnic enclaves which do not share anything close to a common European derived world-view(of course this world view does vary amongst Europeans), or the Boasian school of anthropology which discards the notion any biological agents(i.e. what creates ethnicity) which shape the qualities of a human...etc. etc.
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« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2006, 04:43:20 PM »

I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations, regardless of their religous beliefs.
Racist nonsense. Any ethnic group does this. Serbs for example, Mr.Serbian Patriot.

IIt is a case of them having a track record of actively undermining Christianity, and other gentiles for that matter. 
Yeah, like that time they slaughtered six million Christians in the gas chambers in the 40's........

Although a Jewish convert would obviously still ethnically be a Jew, they have effectively permanently cut off their ties to the Jewish community and assimilated with the host community.
Shouldn't you cut off your ties with your ethnic community also and assimilate into the melting pot of your host community Mr. Serbian Patriot? The reasons you object to Jewish ethnicity also exist in Serbian ethnicity.

Well obviously there can be no objection to people wanting to better their common plight.  As I have already said though, this right ends the moment you encroach on others rights. 
What about the right not to be slandered or defamed?

The only thing that must influence our concern is the evidence.  I only have more concern about a Jewish conspiracy because I believe there is more evidence to support that claim.
"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"- the hoax of hatred which has caused the torture and death of millions of Jews (Hitler used it as well as the Tsars, and it was propagated by the Muslim Arabs in the 1980's, and continues to be published and used throughout the world), slanders an entire ethnicity and inspires enough hatred for people to kill them. Stop and think about this for a minute: The Protocols are actually a gentile plot which brings them together to eliminate Judaism. So, my friend, there is more hard evidence for a gentile conspiracy of genocide than your dubious circumstantial evidence for a "Jewish conspiracy".
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« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2006, 05:28:39 PM »

Racist nonsense. Any ethnic group does this. Serbs for example, Mr.Serbian Patriot.
I was slightly surprised that you didnt wheel out the 'R' word earlier to be truthful.  Full credit to you for restraining yourself for so long. Grin Let me examine what you find racist :
I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations, regardless of their religous beliefs.

To be honest I dont even need to examine what I have written.  You contradict yourself.  You claim that what I say is racist nonsense, but then you claim every ethnic group does this.  You are therefore in agreement with me, but for some curious reason find it unpallatable to admit it when it comes to one ethnic group in particular.

Shouldn't you cut off your ties with your ethnic community also and assimilate into the melting pot of your host community Mr. Serbian Patriot? The reasons you object to Jewish ethnicity also exist in Serbian ethnicity.
Show me where I said that Jews should assimilate with their host community?
Show me where I objected to Jewish ethnicity, whatever objecting to someones ethnicity may mean. Huh

"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"- the hoax of hatred which has caused the torture and death of millions of Jews (Hitler used it as well as the Tsars, and it was propagated by the Muslim Arabs in the 1980's, and continues to be published and used throughout the world), slanders an entire ethnicity and inspires enough hatred for people to kill them. Stop and think about this for a minute: The Protocols are actually a gentile plot which brings them together to eliminate Judaism. So, my friend, there is more hard evidence for a gentile conspiracy of genocide than your dubious circumstantial evidence for a "Jewish conspiracy".
I have seen no evidence that the protocols are authentic, hence I have not referred to them, I dont know why you bring them up.  Lets stick to the facts that are undeniable.
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« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2006, 06:43:29 PM »

Heres a few more interesting quotes guys:

"Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the first Soviet commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish position in the Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White Armies which opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as common enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).

"The Bolshevik revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction and by Jewish planning, shall also, through the same Jewish mental an physical forces, become a reality all over the world." (The American Hebrew, September 10, 1920)

"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the Kremlin, p. 81)

"We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred.... We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)

'During the heyday of the Cold War, American Jewish publicists spent a lot of time denying that-as 1930s anti-Semites claimed-Jews played a disproportionately important role in Soviet and world Communism. The truth is until the early 1950s. Jews did play such a role, and there is nothing to be ashamed of. In time, Jews will learn to take pride in the record of the Jewish Communists in the Soviet Union and elsewhere. It was a species of striking back." -- The Jewish Experience, "Stalin's Jews", pp. 364, Norman F. Cantor, Castle Books, 1996. (Dr. Cantor is the author of several books on Jewish history and a professor of history at New York University.)

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« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2006, 12:25:35 AM »

"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the Kremlin, p. 81)

This quote is sprinkled all over the world of holocaust deniers, but it does not appear to be accurate-- or perhaps its intended meaning is unclear.

I got the following data from someone else, so I am not 100% sure it is accurate. The original source is said to be Pipes, Richard: The Formation of the Soviet Union, Harvard University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-674-30951-0, page 278:

NATIONAL ORIGIN OF COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS, 1922

                        Number          Percent         Per 1,000
                        of party        of              of the
Nationality             members         party           population

Great Russians          270,409         72.00           3.80
Ukrainians               22,078          5.88           0.94
Jews                     19,564          5.20           7.20
Latvians                  9,512          2.53          78.00
Georgians                 7,378          1.96           4.52
Tatars                    6,534          1.72           1.19
Poles                     5,649          1.50          10.80
Belorussians              5,534          1.47           1.67
Kirghiz                   4,964          1.32           0.89
Armenians                 3,828          1.02           2.91
Germans                   2,217          0.59           1.98
Uzbeks                    2,043          0.54           0.76
Estonians                 1,964          0.53          16.30
Ossetins                  1,699          0.45           8.00
Others                   12,528          3.29
                        -------        ------         ------
                        375,901        100.00           2.90 (average)


Obviously this is five years after the revolution, but still.
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« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2006, 12:50:26 AM »

Serbian Patriot

Quote
Well by the same token, why are you surprised when I object to my Orthodox Russian brothers being slapped around for more than half a century.¦nbsp; All I do is object, these people commited immeasurable evil to further their goals.

Well, I had a few points in asking the question. I would agree that turning the other cheek would be a nice thing, if it were possible in such a world as ours. I was not bringing up the point as some type of defense of what happened though, but as sort of a balancing factor to some things I see said about the Jews sometimes. First, it is more likely that it was not some grand conspiracy of Jews, but simply them getting fed up with how they were being treated. I don't say that this excuses either their actions, or the actions of anyone else, I'm simply giving an alternative to the conspiracy theory.

Second, given the Church's replacement theology, and the hostilities between Jews and Christians from the first century onwards, it is easy to read more into 20th century events than is actually there. It is common for people to magnify the importance of events in their own times and places. This has been true from St. Paul, to St. Maximos, to the saints of 20th century Russia, all of whom thought they were seeing the very literal last days (as opposed to "the last days" being a term referring to a period stretching out for millenia). And I don't mean to judge them personally, but factually speaking they were wrong. Yet, because of the writings and "prophecies" of saints which found their way out of Russia, there still lingers these beliefs that connect Jews and Soviet Russia in some eschatological scenario. I guess I asked the question to point out that, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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« Reply #124 on: February 17, 2006, 05:27:11 AM »

This quote is sprinkled all over the world of holocaust deniers, but it does not appear to be accurate-- or perhaps its intended meaning is unclear.

I got the following data from someone else, so I am not 100% sure it is accurate. The original source is said to be Pipes, Richard: The Formation of the Soviet Union, Harvard University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-674-30951-0, page 278:

NATIONAL ORIGIN OF COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS, 1922

                        Number          Percent         Per 1,000
                        of party        of              of the
Nationality             members         party           population

Great Russians          270,409         72.00           3.80
Ukrainians               22,078          5.88           0.94
Jews                     19,564          5.20           7.20
Latvians                  9,512          2.53          78.00
Georgians                 7,378          1.96           4.52
Tatars                    6,534          1.72           1.19
Poles                     5,649          1.50          10.80
Belorussians              5,534          1.47           1.67
Kirghiz                   4,964          1.32           0.89
Armenians                 3,828          1.02           2.91
Germans                   2,217          0.59           1.98
Uzbeks                    2,043          0.54           0.76
Estonians                 1,964          0.53          16.30
Ossetins                  1,699          0.45           8.00
Others                   12,528          3.29
                        -------        ------         ------
                        375,901        100.00           2.90 (average)


Obviously this is five years after the revolution, but still.

I have just one thing to say: "Happy Birthday Keble!"
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« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2006, 06:49:20 AM »

This quote is sprinkled all over the world of holocaust deniers, but it does not appear to be accurate-- or perhaps its intended meaning is unclear.
Agreed, I conceed its intended meaning is unclear, no specific date is given.

I got the following data from someone else, so I am not 100% sure it is accurate. The original source is said to be Pipes, Richard: The Formation of the Soviet Union, Harvard University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-674-30951-0, page 278:

NATIONAL ORIGIN OF COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS, 1922

                        Number          Percent         Per 1,000
                        of party        of              of the
Nationality             members         party           population

Great Russians          270,409         72.00           3.80
Ukrainians               22,078          5.88           0.94
Jews                     19,564          5.20           7.20
Latvians                  9,512          2.53          78.00
Georgians                 7,378          1.96           4.52
Tatars                    6,534          1.72           1.19
Poles                     5,649          1.50          10.80
Belorussians              5,534          1.47           1.67
Kirghiz                   4,964          1.32           0.89
Armenians                 3,828          1.02           2.91
Germans                   2,217          0.59           1.98
Uzbeks                    2,043          0.54           0.76
Estonians                 1,964          0.53          16.30
Ossetins                  1,699          0.45           8.00
Others                   12,528          3.29
                        -------        ------         ------
                        375,901        100.00           2.90 (average)


Obviously this is five years after the revolution, but still.
The famous quote lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind.  This is a list of numbers, I gave a list of names (of communist in leadership positions) so that the nationalites could be confirmed.  Ive trawled the internet for a good 50 minutes and I cant find any similar data, though I am a bit of a computer illiterate. Smiley  Can anyone else find any?
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« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2006, 10:11:00 AM »

Quote
"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"- the hoax of hatred which has caused the torture and death of millions of Jews (Hitler used it as well as the Tsars, and it was propagated by the Muslim Arabs in the 1980's, and continues to be published and used throughout the world), slanders an entire ethnicity and inspires enough hatred for people to kill them. Stop and think about this for a minute: The Protocols are actually a gentile plot which brings them together to eliminate Judaism. So, my friend, there is more hard evidence for a gentile conspiracy of genocide than your dubious circumstantial evidence for a "Jewish conspiracy

Actually, this is a silly thought, considering it's the Jews that won't let the Palestinians build their own state down there. The facts are that the Jews have a state right now, returning to their homeland after nearly 1900 years (which is quite a remarkable achievement), which somehow implies Jewish influence in the world. Besides that, the Israeli lobby in the States is a lot more powerful than any other lobby, so a "jewish conspiracy" to get them back to their homeland in the Middle East and build their own "empire" in the lands it used to be seems to be a lot more realistic than a "gentile conspiracy" issue, therefore justifying the jewish influence in the world. After all, there's not a single power in the political map that does not desire a place in the political pantheon...
Let's brush the protocols aside for once, and check if the facts justify the jewish influence that the protocols claim. One can easily see that much of what is described in that forged document are realistic enough to be justified by the facts. Other than that, whether the protocols are true or forged is of little interest.
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« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2006, 08:55:13 PM »

Actually, this is a silly thought, considering it's the Jews that won't let the Palestinians build their own state down there.
Firstly, the Jews are doing much more than the Palestinians towards the goal of two states in Palestine: The Gaza withdrawal, the fact that Israel doesn't even have control over Jerusalem, the fact that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority......it is the Palestinians who believe that Israel has no right to exist, and are prepared to repeatedly blow themselves up and take Israeli lives with them to demonstrate their hatred for Israel. Yeah, co-ordinated terrorist attacks against Israel and the West looks much more rational and less of a conspiracy theory to me than the "obvious" Jewish conspiracy .  Roll Eyes

The facts are that the Jews have a state right now, returning to their homeland after nearly 1900 years (which is quite a remarkable achievement), which somehow implies Jewish influence in the world.
How do you make such leaps in logic? Does the fact that the Greeks have returned to part of their homeland which they took back from the Ottoman Turks after 400 years somehow imply a "Greek influence in the world"? Is there also a "Greek conspiracy"?

Besides that, the Israeli lobby in the States is a lot more powerful than any other lobby,
Prove it.

Let's brush the protocols aside for once, and check if the facts justify the jewish influence that the protocols claim. One can easily see that much of what is described in that forged document are realistic enough to be justified by the facts. Other than that, whether the protocols are true or forged is of little interest.
So, let me check that I'm hearing what you are saying: You are saying that a forged document (which you twice insisted an Orthodox Emperor ordered to be read after every Liturgy and have yet to prove), that is, a document which is a lie, actually tells the truth and is realistic......and this is shown by the "facts". Well, I'm afraid your "facts" have just been disproved in this post, so where does that leave your dinky little theory?
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« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2006, 03:20:45 PM »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Ntinos on Yesterday at 09:11:00 AM
Besides that, the Israeli lobby in the States is a lot more powerful than any other lobby,

Prove it.

Perhaps I should hand everything to you on a silver plate as well? Is this the army or are you used to being as rude and giving orders all the time?

Well, if you 've got what it takes, PROVE THE OPPOSITE and prove me wrong therefore. But I heavily doubt you're in any position to do anything else other than mocking and irony.  Smiley Smiley

Quote
(which you twice insisted an Orthodox Emperor ordered to be read after every Liturgy and have yet to prove)

Mind you, I'm not interested in proving anything to you. I told you my source, if you want to believe it it's up to you.  Wink

Quote
So, let me check that I'm hearing what you are saying: You are saying that a forged document , that is, a document which is a lie, actually tells the truth and is realistic......and this is shown by the "facts". Well, I'm afraid your "facts" have just been disproved in this post, so where does that leave your dinky little theory?

Your question actually says a lot about what you can understand from someone else's post, which is actually very little. Mind you, I'm speaking about the "Jewish Conspiracy" in the world, which is obvious for anyone not willingly blind and able to discern black from white. I'm speaking about how the Jewish lobbies throughout the world are working all together in order to craft a jewish state in the Middle East.
Also, -mind you- the protocols of the elders of Zion spoke about an awful lot of things that have happened throughout the world - communism, extreme famine in the thirld world, the destruction of the christian faith especially in Russia, the falling away of the intellectual class and a lot lot more which you could of course exclude by pretending - once more- that they never happen/ed. In other words, what I'm saying is that the author of the protocols - whoever that may be - was doing his best to depict the picture of his past, his present and his future, and was most accurate in doing so. Accept this or not, this is what I believe.

Quote
Does the fact that the Greeks have returned to part of their homeland which they took back from the Ottoman Turks after 400 years somehow imply a "Greek influence in the world"? Is there also a "Greek conspiracy"?

We, -the Greeks-, never left the part of our homeland. We where always there, throughout those 400 years of the Turkish rule. We were almost in every case the vast majority, especially in southern Greece - the parts that formed the first Greek Kingdom. What we did is send out a diaspora in the 1700's in order to get political influence in southern Russia and western Europe. This diaspora formed the "Φιλική Εταιρία" an organisation that followed the structure of a terrorist group, which was responsible for the inciting of the rebellion and later the revolution in Romania and Greece during the troubled years of the revolution. The "Φιλική Εταιρία" body was responsible for the shaping of the world's opinion, which resulted in the creation of special non-greek supporters of the greek revolution, the philellines, and the forging of strong relations with strong government bodies in other countries (mainly in Russia, where tons of greek labourers were doing work and a lot of Greeks, like John Kapodistria in diplomacy, and Ipsilantis in military, ranked high in the society).
That, is for the history part of the "Greek influence in the world", which resulted through the Φιλική Εταιρία in the forming of the Greek Kingdom. But I guess all it needs is to be interested enough to know the basics of greek history and diplomacy, heh dear diaspora brother?  Smiley Smiley

Quote
How do you make such leaps in logic?

Considering you're comparing the Jewish return of... 1900 years in a land where they weren't even a majority with the Greek revolution (which was not even a "return"...), you'd best keep your mouth shut from time to time when it comes to being mean.  Smiley Smiley  Shocked Shocked

Quote
Firstly, the Jews are doing much more than the Palestinians towards the goal of two states in Palestine: The Gaza withdrawal, the fact that Israel doesn't even have control over Jerusalem, the fact that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority......it is the Palestinians who believe that Israel has no right to exist, and are prepared to repeatedly blow themselves up and take Israeli lives with them to demonstrate their hatred for Israel. Yeah, co-ordinated terrorist attacks against Israel and the West looks much more rational and less of a conspiracy theory to me than the "obvious" Jewish conspiracy .  Roll Eyes

If your..."rationalism" is inspiring by "goodwill" acts then it should best be called with it's original name, which is no different than "propaganda". Go tell my palestinian friends that live in Greece right now how the "Israeli goodwill" is working for them.
Also, -mind you- the only thing that is obvious is that you in fact accuse the Palestinians of dealing "terrorist" attacks when at the same time their homes are ravaged, and they have been tricked by the UN about the establishment of a Palestinian state, and IT IS THEIR ONLY WAY OF DEFENDING THEMSELVES.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Seems like the Jewish propaganda is working perfectly on you, the... anti-terrorist Australian sitting on his throne couch, enjoying his pop-corn and watching TV.  Grin Grin  Tongue Tongue
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 03:28:35 PM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2006, 05:34:46 PM »

Firstly, the Jews are doing much more than the Palestinians towards the goal of two states in Palestine:
For around half a century the Palestinians have been confined to what can only be described as a slum.  The Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, and is sustained only by foreign aid, for it has no viable means to prop up its economy without outside help. 

The Gaza withdrawal,
A calculated and meaningless propaganda move.  Big deal, instead of occupying the slum, theyve surrounded it.

the fact that Israel doesn't even have control over Jerusalem,
I think you'll find that it is the capital of the state of Israel.


the fact that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority......it is the Palestinians who believe that Israel has no right to exist,
Yet another inaccurate comparison of yours.  Lets compare like with like.  If your going to say that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority, then the logical comparison would be to see whether the Palestinian authority recognises Israel.  It does. 


and are prepared to repeatedly blow themselves up and take Israeli lives with them to demonstrate their hatred for Israel.
Both sides kill each other.  If the Palestinians had American attack helicopters, tanks and jets Im sure they wouldnt be blowing themselves up.  Im also sure that if they hadnt of offered resistance, Israel would be unlikely to give them their own state which they still do not have after 50 years, despite your opinion that Israel is trying hard to give it to them.


Yeah, co-ordinated terrorist attacks against Israel and the West looks much more rational and less of a conspiracy theory to me than the "obvious" Jewish conspiracy .  Roll Eyes
Of course Muslims have their own agenda, and its certainly more obvious than the Jewish one.  I suppose thats the cue for you to whip out the old 'R' word, Ive gone and committed the crime of claiming that its possible for racial or religious groups to have a common agenda which may not be benevolent towards others.

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« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2006, 09:01:36 PM »

I've seen the light. You guys are absolutely correct. There is a Jewish Conspiracy. The Jews control the media. The Jews control Jerusalem (unfortunately all the political action takes place in Tel Aviv, and all the foreign embassies are located there, and the Muslims own the Temple Mount, but that's besides the point). Thank you for enlightening me, both of you. To think I was once blind, but now I see.....
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found,
Was blind but now I see...."

I have asked you numerous questions, you have responded by repeatedly ignoring them. 
That's probably because I considered them unworthy of a priori examination. But now that I've seen the light, there is surely no need to answer them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 09:14:49 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2006, 11:47:37 PM »

WHOA, this is going exactly the way I didn't want it to go.  The poster who I originally refered to has posted more of this stuff.  Now I guess Jews abused Iraqi prisoners in Abu Gharaib.  Whatever.  I'm not going to worry about one nut posting on an Orthodox forum.  God knows, there's no shortage of that
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« Reply #132 on: February 19, 2006, 01:11:48 AM »

Suzannes,

The next thread that goes 9 pages without getting off topic will be the first Wink
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« Reply #133 on: February 19, 2006, 04:24:30 AM »

I've seen the light. You guys are absolutely correct. There is a Jewish Conspiracy. The Jews control the media. The Jews control Jerusalem (unfortunately all the political action takes place in Tel Aviv, and all the foreign embassies are located there, and the Muslims own the Temple Mount, but that's besides the point). Thank you for enlightening me, both of you. To think I was once blind, but now I see.....
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found,
Was blind but now I see...."
You are deliberately trying to sidetrack this thread offering nothing but mocking and sarcasm.  I think this it is obvious to anyone viewing this thread who is trying to lead a logical discussion, and who is not.

That's probably because I considered them unworthy of a priori examination. But now that I've seen the light, there is surely no need to answer them.
If I am worthy to accuse of something, then surely when I ask you to clarify/ammend what you have said, you should respond.  For example you have yet to clarify that nonsensical remark you made where you claimed that what I said about Jews was racist, but that every ethnic group acted like that anyway.  If you are to make bizarre statements then back them up, dont just move on to sarcastic rants, and ignore the issue.
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« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2006, 04:40:43 AM »

God knows, there's no shortage of that
Ain't that the truth.
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