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Author Topic: I'm not sure where this "hot" topic should go...  (Read 12747 times) Average Rating: 0
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suzannes
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« on: February 11, 2006, 11:32:31 PM »

Hi Everyone,
I want to post a question, but I don't want it to turn into an angry debate, I don't want to introduce discord into this forum, but I would just like to get some opinions.  I read another forum, but post very infrequently.  I shouldn't even read it, because I generally find it depressing and full of some very angry stuff (yes, it is an Orthodox forum.)  However, recently there have been posts linking to "Illuminati" sites, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, crop circles, you get the idea.  To my shock, people defend this sort of stuff.  I am NOT talking about valid criticism of Israel, or anything like that.  I'm refering to very "out there" sites, for example, I found out tonight that Bill Frist is the Antichrist, I'm always the last to know!!

I have no idea whether the people posting are Orthodox Christians or not.  I guess my question is: have really wacko types just found a forum where their posts are not *universally* attacked, or do you find a lot of younger Orthodox buy into this stuff?  I can't understand why the moderators allow this, but who knows?  Some of this is however, really virulent anti-semitism, and I find it upsetting.  I even talked to my priest about this a while back.  Like I said, these are not legitimate concerns that are being posted, but just very thinly disguised hatred.
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2006, 11:39:41 PM »

You will find that amongst the Orthodox the entire spectrum of political ideals can be found, from radical communism to radical fascism, from anarchy to monarchy. Ultimately the ideals should be judged on their qualities and their fruits. But that is for you do to, no one can do it for you (and I would be most suspicious of anyone who claims they can). However, if you want to discuss and debate these things the new politics forum would probably be appropriate.
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2006, 11:52:07 PM »

I don't know if the politics forum would be appropos.... maybe FFA or Faith... My understanding of the question is "why are there so many hateful and apparently-strange orthodox posters, and why would this other board allow them to continue?"  suzannes, does this sound right?
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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2006, 11:59:14 PM »

You will find that amongst the Orthodox the entire spectrum of political ideals can be found, from radical communism to radical fascism, from anarchy to monarchy. Ultimately the ideals should be judged on their qualities and their fruits. But that is for you do to, no one can do it for you (and I would be most suspicious of anyone who claims they can). However, if you want to discuss and debate these things the new politics forum would probably be appropriate.

But how in the world are crop circles, the Antichrist, and the Illuminati related to politics? I'd move it to FFA, and I think some good questions are brought up.
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2006, 12:07:49 AM »

But how in the world are crop circles, the Antichrist, and the Illuminati related to politics? I'd move it to FFA, and I think some good questions are brought up.

I've always seen the issues linked to 'survivalist'/populist political ideologies, thus my recommendation. If no one here supports such ideologies, I could always step in and give it a go Wink
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 12:23:45 AM »

Quote
I can't understand why the moderators allow this, but who knows?

As the Administrator of that site still reads over this forum (and used to be an Admin here, mwahaha!), perhaps he will share his thoughts concerning his forum. Smiley

I rented a DVD tonight titled Illuminating Angels and Demons and I guess is supposed to be about the Illuminanti bunk. I don't expect to believe very much of what I'll see or hear, but I figured that it should be interesting viewing. Smiley If I start posting conspiracy theories on OC.net tomorrow, you will know what DVD to avoid!
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2006, 12:29:21 AM »

I've always seen the issues linked to 'survivalist'/populist political ideologies, thus my recommendation. If no one here supports such ideologies, I could always step in and give it a go Wink

Ah, but populism is more of a rhetorical style that is in turn used to support political ideologies. It's simply a way to link things completely unrelated to politics in order to draw popular support. A form of "campaigning," if you will. But of course, we know that politics was not the context inferred here, but rather beliefs that are seemingly divergent from traditional Orthodoxy and use more...fiery arguementation.
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2006, 01:00:08 AM »

Hi Everyone,
I want to post a question, but I don't want it to turn into an angry debate, I don't want to introduce discord into this forum, but I would just like to get some opinions.  I read another forum, but post very infrequently.  I shouldn't even read it, because I generally find it depressing and full of some very angry stuff (yes, it is an Orthodox forum.)  However, recently there have been posts linking to "Illuminati" sites, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, crop circles, you get the idea.  To my shock, people defend this sort of stuff.  I am NOT talking about valid criticism of Israel, or anything like that.  I'm refering to very "out there" sites, for example, I found out tonight that Bill Frist is the Antichrist, I'm always the last to know!!

I have no idea whether the people posting are Orthodox Christians or not.  I guess my question is: have really wacko types just found a forum where their posts are not *universally* attacked, or do you find a lot of younger Orthodox buy into this stuff?  I can't understand why the moderators allow this, but who knows?  Some of this is however, really virulent anti-semitism, and I find it upsetting.  I even talked to my priest about this a while back.  Like I said, these are not legitimate concerns that are being posted, but just very thinly disguised hatred.

Suzannes,

I would venture to suggest that for some time certain people within Orthodoxy have been increasingly influenced and infected by neo-Protestantism Fundamentalism. This could have been transported by the influx of converts from that sector who haven't been able to shake off their earlier mindsets.

You might find the following article by Bishop Auxentios of Photiki interesting...

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PhotikiHarryPotter.shtml

Lord have mercy on me, a sinner

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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2006, 01:14:59 AM »

Quote
would venture to suggest that for some time certain people within Orthodoxy have been increasingly influenced and infected by neo-Protestantism Fundamentalism. This could have been transported by the influx of converts from that sector who haven't been able to shake off their earlier mindsets.

And yet the sources that these people quote--the sources who are teaching them to believe in the Protocols of Zion and whatnot--are cradle Orthodox... and what's more are Orthodox Saints. Why don't you go over to the Euphrosynos Cafe and similar sites, and there you can find out how many revered saints believe this stuff that you wish to attribute to crazy converts.

Btw, before asking God to have mercy on you, why don't you try to stop generalizing and arrogantly judging entire groups of people? God's forgiveness would probably come quicker that way.
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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2006, 01:31:32 AM »

And yet the sources that these people quote--the sources who are teaching them to believe in the Protocols of Zion and whatnot--are cradle Orthodox... and what's more are Orthodox Saints. Why don't you go over to the Euphrosynos Cafe and similar sites, and there you can find out how many revered saints believe this stuff that you wish to attribute to crazy converts.

Btw, before asking God to have mercy on you, why don't you try to stop generalizing and arrogantly judging entire groups of people? God's forgiveness would probably come quicker that way.


It was not my intention to generalise or arrogantly judge an entire group of people - and you will notice that this is merely a suggestion that this could have been transported by converts from that sector - the ones who haven't been able to rid themselves of their earlier mindset.

I apologise that this comment has upset you and ask your forgiveness.

However, I will continue to ask God to have mercy on me, because I truly am a sinner and capable of saying and doing the wrong thing just as much as the next person.

Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.
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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2006, 01:48:10 AM »

<many revered saints believe this stuff that you wish to attribute to crazy converts.> This is true - the Holy Bishop Ioann of Leningrad wrote about this in his excellent book - Russian Symphony and Elder Paissios too refers to the Protocols.  Ofcourse mod opinion reviles the authenticity - it ain't PC for many, especially the young. I suppose only time will tell. 
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2006, 02:56:28 AM »

You will find that amongst the Orthodox the entire spectrum of political ideals can be found, from radical communism to radical fascism, from anarchy to monarchy. Ultimately the ideals should be judged on their qualities and their fruits. But that is for you do to, no one can do it for you (and I would be most suspicious of anyone who claims they can). However, if you want to discuss and debate these things the new politics forum would probably be appropriate.

What he said.....

Further comment:
Besides what GiC summarized, keep in mind that the Church is not bound by American political ideals (or any country on this planet's ideals).  For example, some Republican views are likely consonant with Orthodoxy, some Democrat ideals, some Green, some Libertarian and so forth.  Now, it is up to us to figure out which is appropriate of each party.....which is the difficult part.

Additionally, more to the point....as to St/Elder/Father so and so advocating a view on some controversial topic (e.g. Elders of the Protocols of Zion), SO....WHAT!  Just because they are a Saint/Elder/Father doesn't mean they aren't wrong about a topic/advice/etc.  They are fallible sinful human beings like the rest of us.  Consider that perspective and where they grew up.  As my priest said when I mentioned the view of a Palestinian friend of mine, "It's in his blood...he can't help it."  While not 100% true, he has a point - these "cradles" grew up with a certain world view that is ingrained in them because of their culture.  It is something that is hard for them to overcome (if it is something that they are passionate about/wrong/misinformed/whatever). 
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2006, 07:07:38 AM »

St/Elder/Father so and so advocating a view on some controversial topic (e.g. Elders of the Protocols of Zion), SO....WHAT! 
The book's title is actually "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and is actually a piece of cr*p thought up by some russian nutjobs and supposedly presents the protocols of the supposed "master plan" of the supposed "elders" of the supposed "jewish conspiracy". The Russian peasantry seem to love these conspiracy theories. Personally, I would use it as toilet paper rather than read it. It has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2006, 07:25:30 AM »

And yet the sources that these people quote--the sources who are teaching them to believe in the Protocols of Zion and whatnot--are cradle Orthodox...
No they aren't.
They are cradle schismatics.
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2006, 09:25:55 AM »

Quote
The book's title is actually "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and is actually a piece of cr*p thought up by some russian nutjobs and supposedly presents the protocols of the supposed "master plan" of the supposed "elders" of the supposed "jewish conspiracy". The Russian peasantry seem to love these conspiracy theories. Personally, I would use it as toilet paper rather than read it. It has nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

The Czar had the protocols read every Sunday after service in every Church of the Empire, before his fall, so maybe it has something to do with Orthodoxy: either it is true and the Czar was trying to prevent something ugly from happening, either it is crap and the Czar was using conspiracy measures to have the Jews persecuted.
Eitherway, if you are an Orthodox Christian and know Greek, perhaps you would be interested to read the book on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion by Archimandrite Charalambos Vasilopoulos. It is quite illuminating. I will not comment on whether the protocols are crap or not.
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2006, 09:28:48 AM »

Quote
Hi Everyone,
I want to post a question, but I don't want it to turn into an angry debate, I don't want to introduce discord into this forum, but I would just like to get some opinions.  I read another forum, but post very infrequently.  I shouldn't even read it, because I generally find it depressing and full of some very angry stuff (yes, it is an Orthodox forum.)  However, recently there have been posts linking to "Illuminati" sites, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, crop circles, you get the idea.  To my shock, people defend this sort of stuff.  I am NOT talking about valid criticism of Israel, or anything like that.  I'm refering to very "out there" sites, for example, I found out tonight that Bill Frist is the Antichrist, I'm always the last to know!!

I have no idea whether the people posting are Orthodox Christians or not.  I guess my question is: have really wacko types just found a forum where their posts are not *universally* attacked, or do you find a lot of younger Orthodox buy into this stuff?  I can't understand why the moderators allow this, but who knows?  Some of this is however, really virulent anti-semitism, and I find it upsetting.  I even talked to my priest about this a while back.  Like I said, these are not legitimate concerns that are being posted, but just very thinly disguised hatred.

Could you direct me to that website?
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2006, 12:16:39 PM »

Hi Everyone,
I want to post a question, but I don't want it to turn into an angry debate, I don't want to introduce discord into this forum, but I would just like to get some opinions.  I read another forum, but post very infrequently.  I shouldn't even read it, because I generally find it depressing and full of some very angry stuff (yes, it is an Orthodox forum.)  However, recently there have been posts linking to "Illuminati" sites, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, crop circles, you get the idea.  To my shock, people defend this sort of stuff.  I am NOT talking about valid criticism of Israel, or anything like that.  I'm refering to very "out there" sites, for example, I found out tonight that Bill Frist is the Antichrist, I'm always the last to know!!

I have no idea whether the people posting are Orthodox Christians or not.  I guess my question is: have really wacko types just found a forum where their posts are not *universally* attacked, or do you find a lot of younger Orthodox buy into this stuff?  I can't understand why the moderators allow this, but who knows?  Some of this is however, really virulent anti-semitism, and I find it upsetting.  I even talked to my priest about this a while back.  Like I said, these are not legitimate concerns that are being posted, but just very thinly disguised hatred.

Suzannes,

Well, one possitive thing about the forum you are reading is that Bill Frist (whoever he might be) is being accused of being the Anti-Christ. Makes a change from the Pope always receiving the label. Smiley

It's a simple fact that we are all fallible beings and it comes as no surprise to me that we find human fraility within Orthodoxy, though we would wish it otherwise. Afterall, we are all made from the same damaged mould, just with differing defects.

To find hatred anywhere is always very disturbing and for the sake of your own peace of mind, it might be an idea to avoid anywhere that such negativity is prevalent; especially as we approach Lent.

Lord have mercy on me, a sinner.

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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2006, 12:24:17 PM »

Well, one possitive thing about the forum you are reading is that Bill Frist (whoever he might be) is being accused of being the Anti-Christ. Makes a change from the Pope always receiving the label. Smiley

Sen. Bill Frist is our Senate Majority Leader, but how he got the title of 'anti-christ' bestowed upon him I will never know...there are far more controversial figures in American politics.

P.S. Did I mention that these Ideas tend to be particularly popular in Greece, especially amongst the older generations?
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2006, 01:40:58 PM »

P.S. Did I mention that these Ideas tend to be particularly popular in Greece, especially amongst the older generations?

You mean the idea that particular American politicians are the Anti-Christ?

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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2006, 01:44:52 PM »

We're hitting the line where the thread may have to get moved into the politics board...
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2006, 01:49:28 PM »

We're hitting the line where the thread may have to get moved into the politics board...

I have no interest in politics. Just wondered what greekischristian meant by his/her comment.

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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2006, 01:59:27 PM »

You mean the idea that particular American politicians are the Anti-Christ?

I mean consipracy theories in general, whether they're about the Americans or the Jews, or both.
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2006, 02:00:40 PM »

We're hitting the line where the thread may have to get moved into the politics board...

Yeah, that's what I said from the beginning. How can any thread that talks about the international Jewish conspiracy and Sen. Frist being the Anti-Christ be anything but political?
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2006, 02:10:28 PM »

Yeah, that's what I said from the beginning. How can any thread that talks about the international Jewish conspiracy and Sen. Frist being the Anti-Christ be anything but political?

This is, of course, a good point. Smiley

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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2006, 03:01:44 PM »

I guess I should give a little more information.  Someone posted "who was behing 9/11 article."  I'll post the link just because I think it better illustrates what troubled me so much, http://www.truthseeker.uk
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2006, 03:10:47 PM »



http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/   Sorry about that!  Wrong address.
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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2006, 03:25:52 PM »

Somehow I messed up my post.  I'm sorry, I guess I hit post by mistake.

I wanted to explain a little bit about this whole thing.  I read a post called "who was really behind 9/11," which is an article on this truthseeker site.  When I questioned it, the poster said something like "why would this site lie?" which is like asking "why would anyone sin?"!!  The Orthodox forum where this appeared has the intention of defending "truth," and I think this just slipped by the moderators.  If you go to the site, you'll see it's they're in X-Files land, with a big dose of hate thrown in.
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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2006, 03:39:40 PM »

Dear Suzannes, I cannot see how these people are related to anything near Orthodox Christianity, in fact, they are very similar to some of the protestant heretic groups that are ready to cause a global nuclear war in order to force the Second Coming to come ahead of time  Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2006, 05:01:37 PM »

Suzannes,

I couldn't find the 9/11 article you referred to, but I am still chuckling about the "Was Hitler a "British" Agent?" item. IMHO, that site is fairly represenative of poor souls with some kind of psychiatric disorder. How you found it linked to anything resembling an Orthodox site/forum will probably remain one of the mysteries of all time.

Let's assume for a moment that even if these people have established this site with the very best of intentions (though that's fairly hard to do) it remains nothing more than outrageous and unsubstantiated fear mongering. It would do nothing to encourage or enhance a person's faith.

Conspiracy theories have always been around, and I'm afraid there is going to continue to be this kind of hysteria on the internet. My advice to you is to preserve your own walk with God in peace and leave that site to those who appear to have no hope. Perhaps you could make it a Lenten commitment to pray for the contributors to that site and the people of the Orthodox forum that it is linked from? Only God's grace can eradicate such paranoia and hatred.

God bless you and keep you.

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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2006, 05:10:47 PM »

The Czar had the protocols read every Sunday after service in every Church of the Empire,

Another myth the peasants like to propagate. Could you provide some evidence for this absurd claim?
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« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2006, 10:11:58 PM »

Sue57/Suzannes

It's not really very nice to slam another site, and then not give a link so that people can make up their own minds whether your criticisms are justified. If you did not want to give a link because you didn't want other Orthodox Christians going there because you think the content is bad, then I can understand that, but it'd still be good to give people a chance to see the other side, no?

Quote
The Orthodox forum where this appeared has the intention of defending "truth," and I think this just slipped by the moderators.

Well I can't speak for Nicholas or John regarding that thread in particular, but I know they do believe in similar conspiracy theories, such as the idea that Communists infiltrated the Catholic Church and that the Jews control the media. Met. Philip of the Antiochians believes that last one as well (I heard him say so on Come Receive the Light)... so you might want to think before casting epithets at people Wink
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2006, 11:50:20 PM »

Well, I did read some statements / claims on that site. It is appropriate to call it Nazism, absurd and heresy. But it is not Orthodoxy. No doubts.
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2006, 02:14:54 AM »

Quote
P.S. Did I mention that these Ideas tend to be particularly popular in Greece, especially amongst the older generations?

What is even more surprising is how many younger and educated people in Greece buy into the most wild conspiracy theories out there.   
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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2006, 02:20:48 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107203#msg107203 date=1139811294]
What is even more surprising is how many younger and educated people in Greece buy into the most wild conspiracy theories out there.   
[/quote]
Ah, but it takes a russian to invent them in the first place (eg, the Protocols) Wink
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« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2006, 03:48:08 AM »

The flow of racist garbage from Russia to Greece is of course not surprising.  What does intrigue me is the role of Rapture material from America on Greek conspiracy theorists.  Alas the worst parts of American culture seem to get exported to the world.
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2006, 04:05:40 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107210#msg107210 date=1139816888]
The flow of racist garbage from Russia to Greece is of course not surprising. [/quote]
Perhaps not surprising to you.....it does surprise me.......Anyway, the fact is: it was Russians who invented the Protocols, unless this will probably be simply another piece of history to be swept under the carpet because it doesn't fit with someone's (tunnel visioned) worldview.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107210#msg107210 date=1139816888]What does intrigue me is the role of Rapture material from America on Greek conspiracy theorists.  Alas the worst parts of American culture seem to get exported to the world.[/quote]
I don't see what these crack-pot conspiracy theories about Jews have to do with the uniquely stupid belief in the Rapture.


Edited by George because the original way I worded it sounded awful!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 05:21:25 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2006, 04:46:00 AM »

It's not really very nice to slam another site,
The trouble, I think, is that forums go through "bad patches" and people who see them only during the bad patches form particular opinions based on that brief experience of it's history. The forum in question actually has a long (and IMO, much more noble) history. I think, with patience and perspective (we are talking about a few threads and a few posters) it may come good again.
EDIT: And don't count the number of topics to count the number of threads. A "topic" consisting of a single thread by a single poster who repeatedly posts new topics that no one responds to is not a "thread"!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 04:52:13 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2006, 05:01:37 AM »

Well, speaking as a former moderator and regular participant at the site, I am a bit less optimistic, but I would agree that fora definately go in cycles, and it's not fair to take just one cycle (or one portion of the cycle) and judge the entire forum based on that little segment. Unfortunately, people have been complaining about the forum for years, so it might not just be a problem of a few posters or a few months... but I genuinely like the forum nonetheless, and like the admins (even if they are too picky about formalities like addressing people as "Father," especially when others, and even they themselves, ignore the canons/traditions that say not to publically attack clergy). Anyway, I would consider about 80% of my posts there to be a "bad patch," so maybe I don't have the best perspective on the matter. Smiley
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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2006, 05:33:40 AM »

Quote
Another myth the peasants like to propagate. Could you provide some evidence for this absurd claim?

I do not intend to search for evidence, but:
a) if you can understand Greek
b) you believe the elders in Agion Oros are not making anti-semetic claims because of Christianity having a long history with Judaism, then in http://athos.gr/ you can find the conversation in sound format named: "Διάλογος μεταξύ του Γέροντα Ιωσήφ ÃƒÆ’â€žÃŽÂ¿Ãâ€¦ Βατοπαιδινού και ενός Ρώσου επισκέπτη που έλαβε χώρα στις 26.10.2001 στο Άγιο Όρος." which is quite frightening to say the least.
Also, the great Elder Paissios also agreed that the Zionists are in work, more info on that you can find on "Γέροντας ÃŽ ÃƒÆ’ŽÂ±ÃŽÂ¯ÃÆ’ιος ο Αγιορείτης: Μαρτυρίες ÃŽ ÃƒÆ’ÂÃŽÂ¿ÃÆ’κυνητών, εκδόσεις: Αγιοτόκος Καππαδοκία". And that would be enough from my part.
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« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2006, 05:45:49 AM »

Quote
Another myth the peasants like to propagate. Could you provide some evidence for this absurd claim?

I read it a greek newspaper named "Εθνος" (=Nation), which was just like you condemning the text of the Protocols as a fraud, but considered the claim about the Czar having it read every Sunday at Church true.
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« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2006, 05:52:31 AM »

Sorry, none of your links in the website work for me Ntinos. Must be a Jewish conspiracy. Why don't you burn down a synagogue and smash some shop windows in retaliation? And when you've done that, why not try some "Orthodoxy" instead of "Netodoxy"....something radical like, oh, I dunno, visit a monastery and talk to some actual monks, or perhaps attend the Divine Liturgy?
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« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2006, 06:59:47 AM »

Quote
Sorry, none of your links in the website work for me Ntinos. Must be a Jewish conspiracy. Why don't you burn down a synagogue and smash some shop windows in retaliation? And when you've done that, why not try some "Orthodoxy" instead of "Netodoxy"....something radical like, oh, I dunno, visit a monastery and talk to some actual monks, or perhaps attend the Divine Liturgy?

Since it's not working for you, try:
http://www.filefactory.com/get/v3/f2.php?f=740ce575ac335eeca90e272b
if this isn't working, then it's sure gotta be a jewish conspiracy behind... damn  Tongue

The actual text from the side of the russian visitor:
http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/prophets/josvat.html

Oh, do the monks from the monasteries in Australia or the priests during divine Liturgy speak in a similar Christian manner like you?  Angry Angry If so I prefer the monks and the priests in Greece. Too bad the Archbishop here (Athens) keeps talking about... "dark servants of the evil trying to root out Orthodoxy from Greece" and the leftwing parties keep mocking him about it... Grin Grin
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 07:16:24 AM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2006, 07:15:01 AM »

Believe whatever you wish. I have brought you enough evidence to support the idea that the Church actually does have worries about the jewish influence in the world. Other than that, I can do nothing else, and to be honest I have no need of being mocked and laughed at. If you have evidence of the opposite, then bring it on. Otherwise, the only thing you're doing is mocking and laughing ironically without bringing the slightest clue that excluded the opposite idea. That being said, the only thing your presence offers is a bad example of christian behaviour.
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« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2006, 07:23:55 AM »

Since it's not working for you, try:
http://www.filefactory.com/get/v3/f2.php?f=740ce575ac335eeca90e272b
if this isn't working, then it's sure gotta be a jewish conspiracy behind... damn  Tongue
Well, no, I now suspect it is a Bill Gates conspiracy since this website wants me to pay for the download....no thanks!


The actual text from the side of the russian visitor:
http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/prophets/josvat.html
Oh please! Not that website again!!!

Oh, do the monks from the monasteries in Australia or the priests during divine Liturgy speak in a similar Christian manner like you?  Angry Angry If so I prefer the monks and the priests in Greece.  Grin Grin
Do monks and priests in Greece use internet forums to spread anti-semetic nonsense? Well, not the ones I have met on the Holy Mountain, Makri, Nea Makri, Athens, Thessaloniki, Edessa, Florina, Aegina, Rodos, Lesvos, Tinos, Corfu.........
What surprises me Ntinos, is that you don't even realise how silly such conspiracy theories sound when you say them out loud.
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« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2006, 07:30:31 AM »

Quote
Well, no, I now suspect it is a Bill Gates conspiracy since this website wants me to pay for the download....no thanks!

No, it does not require of you to pay anything. What it requires is for you to wait for the estimated time, then click on the "Don't want a premium download? Click here to access our free download links. " then click on the "FileFactory HTTP -- Click here to download" and it downloads just fine. Except of course if you do not have the patience for it to allocate downloading space.

Quote
Oh please! Not that website again!!!

You can just download the above sound file, which is exactly the same. (and even better)

Quote
Do monks and priests in Greece use internet forums to spread anti-semetic nonsense? Well, not the ones I have met on the Holy Mountain, Makri, Nea Makri, Athens, Thessaloniki, Edessa, Florina, Aegina, Rodos, Lesvos, Tinos, Corfu.........

You can watch the local Church channel "ΛΥΧΝΟΣ" (of Orthodoxy) in Patras, in which from time to time priests talk about the Jewish influence in the world, the jewish influence in the former Soviet Union and another great number of heavy issues like the New Order. It's actually the official channel of the Metropolis of Patras, so you cannot blame me for believing what is projected through my direct Church.  Tongue

Quote
What surprises me Ntinos, is that you don't even realise how silly such conspiracy theories sound when you say them out loud.

Perhaps you're thinking too high of yourself, or too low of me. Eithercase, the way you're responding gives me every single right not to consider you credible enough. For the time being, it's not me who's coming up with various excuses in order not to check out the other sides' sources.
The only thing I am doing is believing in what is projected through my Church. The only proof I need to get here is from the Book "ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΕΣ ÃŽ ÃƒÆ’ŽÂ¡ÃŽÅ¸ÃŽÂ£ÃŽÅ¡ÃŽÂ¥ÃŽÂÃŽâ€”ΤΩΝ - Ο ΓΕΡΟΝΤΑΣ ÃŽ ÃƒÆ’Žâ€˜ÃŽâ„¢ÃŽÂ£ÃŽâ„¢ÃŽÅ¸ÃŽÂ£ Ο ΑΓΙΟΡΕΙΤΗΣ" pages 99-106. The Elder is as clear as it can get, and you can always ask the printing service for the original version of the sound document in which the Elder explains the whole system.
In other words, you're mocking me for following my Church and nothing more...
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« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2006, 07:40:56 AM »

You can watch the local Church channel "ΛΥΧΝΟΣ" (of Orthodoxy) in Patras, in which from time to time priests talk about the Jewish influence in the world, the jewish influence in the former Soviet Union and another great number of heavy issues like the New Order. It's actually the official channel of the Metropolis of Patras, so you cannot blame me for believing what is projected through my direct Church.  Tongue

Ntinos, do you realise that every source of your learning about Orthodoxy which you mention is either the internet or television?
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« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2006, 07:43:20 AM »

Quote
Ntinos, do you realise that every source of your learning about Orthodoxy which you mention is either the internet or television?

Well, as far as I know...


Quote
I read it a greek newspaper named "Εθνος" (=Nation), which was just like you condemning the text of the Protocols as a fraud, but considered the claim about the Czar having it read every Sunday at Church true.
Quote
Also, the great Elder Paissios also agreed that the Zionists are in work, more info on that you can find on "Γέροντας � αίσιος ο Αγιορείτης: Μαρτυρίες � ροσκυνητών, εκδόσεις: Αγιοτόκος Καππαδοκία". And that would be enough from my part.
Quote
The only thing I am doing is believing in what is projected through my Church. The only proof I need to get here is from the Book "ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΕΣ � ΡΟΣΚΥΝΗΤΩΝ - Ο ΓΕΡΟΝΤΑΣ � ΑΙΣΙΟΣ Ο ΑΓΙΟΡΕΙΤΗΣ" pages 99-106. The Elder is as clear as it can get, and you can always ask the printing service for the original version of the sound document in which the Elder explains the whole system.
In other words, you're mocking me for following my Church and nothing more...
Quote
Eitherway, if you are an Orthodox Christian and know Greek, perhaps you would be interested to read the book on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion by Archimandrite Charalambos Vasilopoulos. It is quite illuminating.

My referring to internet sites is not because this is my source of information, it is because I'm trying to make it more accessible to you!

Ozgeorge, not believing in what I'm saying is one thing! Accusing me without even paying attention to what I'm writing is a completely different thing!  Sad Sad
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 07:45:48 AM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2006, 07:48:58 AM »

Quote
Oh, do the monks from the monasteries in Australia or the priests during divine Liturgy speak in a similar Christian manner like you?  Angry Angry If so I prefer the monks and the priests in Greece. Too bad the Archbishop here (Athens) keeps talking about... "dark servants of the evil trying to root out Orthodoxy from Greece" and the leftwing parties keep mocking him about it... Grin Grin

Hey Ntinos!

Now you know that not ALL the Aussies are like this.

I have dealt with all this in the past ....and yes, from Priests who are Greek Orthodox......There was a great Priest that I found and attented Church for awhile(he has passed away)and he spoke of.....
Quote
"dark servants of the evil trying to root out Orthodoxy from Greece"
And this is how the world will be at the time of the coming of the Antichrist and his servants.

Oz George.......Ntinos is right!

I have also heard that the one that will CROWN the Antichrist will be one of our OWN.....
And this should scare all Orthodox Christians ......

Remember ......Who was the one that betrayed Jesus Christ?
It was someone Close to Jesus Christ....one of His Disciples....

Anyway........I am in no way saying that all conspiracy sites should be believed.....in fact, many do sound like they are strange and all, but in fact are pretty much actual truths.
The devil seeks those with faith and not non believers......

And NO....i dont believe that Aliens (U.F.O'S) ARE actual beings from other planets ...IN FACT they are DEMONS ....
all take care
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helen
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« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2006, 08:03:10 AM »

Quote
Hey Ntinos!

Now you know that not ALL the Aussies are like this.

Pardon my straying Helen!  Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2006, 08:08:28 AM »

I have dealt with all this in the past ....and yes, from Priests who are Greek Orthodox......There was a great Priest that I found and attented Church for awhile(he has passed away)and he spoke of....."dark servants of the evil trying to root out Orthodoxy from Greece"
Let me guess...."Jews"?
If Orthodoxy is lost in Greece, it will be because of the nutbags who bring stupid conspiracy theories to her and call them "Orthodox Christianity". And if that is what Orthodoxy becomes in Greece, then Greece is better off without such "Orthodoxy".

Oz George.......Ntinos is right!
Yeah....and childbirth is painless....


I have also heard that the one that will CROWN the Antichrist will be one of our OWN.....
And this should scare all Orthodox Christians ......
If you bother to read the scriptures, nothing should scare a Christian: "There is nothing to fear but fear itself", "Perfect Love drives out all fear"....but I suppose you'd miss this if you are obsessed with conspiracy theories.

Remember ......Who was the one that betrayed Jesus Christ?
It was someone Close to Jesus Christ....one of His Disciples....
Ooooooooooo......cosmic......


Anyway........I am in no way saying that all conspiracy sites should be believed.....in fact, many do sound like they are strange and all, but in fact are pretty much actual truths.
Now you're just confusing me. On the one hand you are telling me that we shouldn't believe many conspiracy sites, and on the other hand you're telling me that they are telling the truth......so, I shouldn't believe the truth........Oh...OK Undecided


The devil seeks those with faith and not non believers......
And what a winning strategy he has in getting people to confuse believing in conspiracy theories with believing in Christ.....You gotta hand it to him...

OK, we are now on the bus to Looney Town, heading for city centre, and I think I'll get off here....
Nighty night.

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« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2006, 08:13:23 AM »

Oh, by the way, if you guys are really into conspiracy theories, there's this other Orthodox forum you might be interested in.......
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« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2006, 08:42:15 AM »

Quote
Let me guess...."Jews"?
If Orthodoxy is lost in Greece, it will be because of the nutbags who bring stupid conspiracy theories to her and call them "Orthodox Christianity". And if that is what Orthodoxy becomes in Greece, then Greece is better off without such "Orthodoxy".

Try "The Book of the End" - Vladimir Moss (phd theology), tons of Archbishop Averky of ROCOR and St. John of Kronstadt quotes, it's even more full of "anti-semetism" (or whatever you consider it...), prophecies and sayings from the Russian Elders, with tons of bibliography and "racist" quotes that would scare your "Orthodoxy" to death, if the Church of Greece is not good enough for you. I can post huge quotes about the "New World Order", their views on the jewish influence behind the Soviet persecution and lots lots more straight from that book.
I guess it also deserves your mocking and irony. Considering that Orthodox Christianity still believes in apologising and considers being impolite and ironical/rude a sin, I really do not believe you have any right to judge Orthodox Christianity in Greece. Other than that, everybody can see how Orthodox your reactions to eleni who just came in are and judge by that.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 08:48:03 AM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2006, 05:28:29 PM »

Quote
Anyway, the fact is: it was Russians who invented the Protocols, unless this will probably be simply another piece of history to be swept under the carpet because it doesn't fit with someone's (tunnel visioned) worldview.

And I always thought it was common knowledge that the Tsarist secret police had forged the Protocols.  I'm curious whose tunnel visioned world view this doesn't fit in with.

Quote
I don't see what these crack-pot conspiracy theories about Jews have to do with the uniquely stupid belief in the Rapture.

The link is actually stronger than once might expect as both invovle a powerful Jewish control of the world.  I came across many sort of hybrid materials that definetly had some influence from the Rapture crowd from similar sources as Ntinos.  My American friends in Greece found this amusing as we had all seen this before in a slightly different form.     
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« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2006, 12:00:52 PM »

Another myth the peasants like to propagate. Could you provide some evidence for this absurd claim?
Well if the tsar didnt pay attention to the fact that the jews may have had it in for him, he certainly should have done.  The communist revolution that overthrew him was overwhelmingly lead by jews.  The names and nationalities speak for themselves, historians do not debate these facts, they just prefer not to mention them.  If someone does happen to question the enormous percentage of jews in the communist leadership, it is almost always inevitably answered by the fact that they were the most persecuted.  Either way they were not passive little lambs.  Funny that when these facts are mentioned people like you rush to suppress them with no evidence but cries of 'hate'.  Well maybe you can resist your impulses for one minute, and think about what is more hateful:  the slaughter of the tsar and his family, and the subjugation of Russia to communism, or the fact that someone dares to mention in this day and age that jews played a significant role in these events.  I challenge you to dispute these straight forward facts.  How on earth can it be wrong to point them out, but more importantly how can they not be of any significance?

Peoples Commissariat (Ministry) Name Nationality
Chairman V.I. Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Foreign Affairs G.V. Chicherin Russian
Nationalities J. Dzhugashvili [Stalin] Georgian
Agriculture Protian Armenian
Economic Council Lourie (Larin) Jew
Food Supply A.G. Schlikhter Jew
Army and Navy [Military] L.D. Bronstein (Trotski) Jew
State Control K.I. Lander Jew
State Lands Kaufmann Jew
Works [Labor] V. Schmidt Jew
Social Relief E. Lilina (Knigissen) Jew
Education A. Lunacharsky Russian
Religion Spitzberg Jew
Interior Apfelbaum [Radomyslski] (Zinoviev) Jew
Hygiene Anvelt Jew
Finance I. E. Gukovs [and G. Sokolnikov] Jew
Press Voldarski [Goldstein] Jew
Elections M.S. Uritsky Jew
Justice I.Z. Shteinberg Jew
Refugees Fenigstein Jew
Refugees Savitch (Assistant) Jew
Refugees Zaslovski (Assistant) Jew

The Central Executive Committee
Y. M. Sverdlov [Solomon] (Chairman) Jew
Avanesov (Secretary) Armenian
Bruno Color Color  Latvian
Breslau Latvian [?]
Babtchinski Jew
N. I. Bukharin Russian
Weinberg Jew
Gailiss Jew
Ganzberg [Ganzburg ] Jew
Danichevski Jew
Starck German
Sachs Jew
Scheinmann Jew
Erdling Jew
Landauer Jew
Linder Jew
Wolach Czech
S. Dimanshtein Jew
Encukidze Georgian
Ermann Jew
A. A. Ioffe Jew
Karkhline Jew
Knigissen Jew
Rosenfeld (Kamenev) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinoviev) Jew
N. Krylenko Russian
Krassikov Jew
Kaprik Jew
Kaoul Latvian
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Latsis Jew
Lander Jew
Lunacharsky Russian
Peterson Latvian
Peters Latvian
Roudzoutas Jew
Rosine Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Stoutchka Latvian
Nakhamkes (Steklov) Jew
Sosnovski Jew
Skrytnik Jew
L. Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Teodorovitch Jew [?]
Terian Armenian
Uritsky Jew
Telechkine Russian
Feldmann Jew
Fromkin Jew
Souriupa Ukrainian
Tchavtchevadze Georgian
Scheikmann Jew
Rosental Jew
Achkinazi Imeretian [?]
Karakhane Karaim [Karaite]
Rose Jew
Sobelson (Radek) Jew
Schlichter Jew
Schikolini Jew
Chklianski Jew
Levine-(Pravdine) Jew

The Extraordinary Commission of Moscow (Cheka) 'the Soviet secret police and predecessor of the GPU, the NKVD and the KGB was made up of the following:

F. Dzerzhinsky (Chairman) Pole
Y. Peters (Deputy Chairman) Latvian
Chklovski Jew
Kheifiss Jew
Zeistine Jew
Razmirovitch Jew
Kronberg Jew
Khaikina Jew
Karlson Latvian
Schaumann Latvian
Leontovitch Jew
Jacob Goldine Jew
Galperstein Jew
Kniggisen Jew
Katzis Latvian
Schillenkuss Jew
Janson Latvian
Rivkine Jew
Antonof Russian
Delafabre Jew
Tsitkine Jew
Roskirovitch Jew
G. Sverdlov (Brother of president of the Central Executive Committee) Jew
Biesenski Jew
J. Blumkin (Count Mirbach's assassin) Jew
Alexandrovitch (Blumkin's accomplice) Russian
I. Model Jew
Routenberg Jew
Pines Jew
Sachs Jew
Daybol Latvian
Saissoune Armenian
Deylkenen Latvian
Liebert Jew
Vogel German
Zakiss Latvian



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« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2006, 12:06:04 PM »

wow
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« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2006, 12:14:19 PM »

That's quite a list  Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2006, 01:34:18 PM »

Try "The Book of the End" - Vladimir Moss (phd theology),

The information given by Mr. Moss in an interview from 2001 is that his doctorate is in psychology.  What documentation might you have that he has a theology degree?  Why should he be accepted as an authority?

Ebor


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« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2006, 01:54:23 PM »

That list seems to have been taken in toto from one at http://christianparty.net/lenin.htm

Having taken a look at other parts of it, the source is an anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-woman, white surpremacist site.  It has a "poll" on "exiling Blacks" for instance. Then there is the rather umm "interesting" ideas on what is an "israelite" vs a "Jew", how most of the world is excluded from God's favour as they are not "israelites" i.e. "white Christians" and more.   Roll Eyes

It is interesting that some on the list have a country/nationality but others are "Jew" as though a genetic link or taint is the "cause" of their deeds.  Looking up Trotsky I find that he was born in Ukraine to a non-religious family who were of Jewish descent.  How would he then not be "Ukrainian" I wonder.

Ebor
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« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2006, 01:58:37 PM »

The Czar had the protocols read every Sunday after service in every Church of the Empire, before his fall..

Out of idle curiosity, do you have any documentation to support your claim that Nicholas II actually *did* this? 

Ebor
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« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2006, 05:25:21 PM »

What I mentioned about the Czar I read it in a socialist-oriented newspaper in Greece called "Ethnos" (Εθνος = Nation) on an article quoting the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" back in August time, so I believe it is correct, since it's actually a very credible newspaper. The stance of the author was similar to ozgeorge's in the issue of the protocols (antisemetism propaganda etc etc). Unfortunately, I cannot back up this statement with more, first of all because I do not keep newspapers for more than a week or two, and second -even if I did still have the newspaper- I do not have a scanner.
Also to add, since you might try to get it at me for the whole Protocols issue, I do believe the protocols are a forged piece of propaganda. I do not believe however that the Jewish influence in the christian world is all that clean and that the Church has every right to feel worried about it.

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The information given by Mr. Moss in an interview from 2001 is that his doctorate is in psychology.  What documentation might you have that he has a theology degree?  Why should he be accepted as an authority?

You are probably right about Vladimir Moss. I did not mention his name however as the source, I mentioned his book. The quotes inside it are to a large extent from Archbishop Averky (ROCOR, Jordanville), so I guess reading the book would give you a more appropriate view on it.
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« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2006, 05:27:25 PM »

That list seems to have been taken in toto from one at http://christianparty.net/lenin.htm

Having taken a look at other parts of it, the source is an anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-woman, white surpremacist site.  It has a "poll" on "exiling Blacks" for instance. Then there is the rather umm "interesting" ideas on what is an "israelite" vs a "Jew", how most of the world is excluded from God's favour as they are not "israelites" i.e. "white Christians" and more.   Roll Eyes
You are totally wrong when you say the list was taken from there.  I have never heard of the group you mention.  The list I have given is doubtless found on many websites belonging to groups who have their own dubious motives.  The list itself is by no means dubious, it is a statement of fact which I notice you have not denied.

It is interesting that some on the list have a country/nationality but others are "Jew" as though a genetic link or taint is the "cause" of their deeds. 
Those are your words not mine.  I never said that there was a genetic link that caused their 'deeds' as you put it.  I just stated fact, you are extrapolating things that dont exist.  Nations also have common genetic links, so what?

Looking up Trotsky I find that he was born in Ukraine to a non-religious family who were of Jewish descent.  How would he then not be "Ukrainian" I wonder.
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Many atheist Jews still refer to themselves as Jews.  The fact that he was not a practicing one, does not suddenly make him a member of the indiginous population.  As the term 'anti-semitism' reveals, the Jews have a common genetic ancestry.  In many cases, just as with other nationalities/tribes, they maintain a group mentality even if they lose their religion.  Certainly if he and his siblings were Ukranian as you say, it is curious how his sister married another Jew (Lev Borisovich Kamenev, born Rosenfeld).  What are the chances of that being a random occurence?  I study statistics and can tell you that the chances of it being random are small, and pale into insignificance if other cases were taken into account.  Anyway I am getting into details here, the fact of the matter is that for the purposes of the list, those listed as Jewish are of Jewish descent, regardless of their religious beliefs.  
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« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2006, 05:39:21 PM »

The thing about the percentage of jews in the Soviet Union was also mentioned by the theologian and parishioner priest in the Patras Metropolia father Konstantinos Kapetanopoulos. He also had quite clear sources, as he presented on his own time on tv, in which he analyses issues about hellenism, orthodoxy and the spiritual state of the world today.

Also, in order not to mess it further with Ebor, since he has a tendency to follow ozgeorge every time I mention anything about the jews or prophecies of the elders, I do not intend to convince anyone on anything. I just write my views on the topic, nothing more.
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« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2006, 06:40:31 PM »

You are totally wrong when you say the list was taken from there. � I have never heard of the group you mention. � The list I have given is doubtless found on many websites belonging to groups who have their own dubious motives. � The list itself is by no means dubious, it is a statement of fact which I notice you have not denied.
Interesting though, Serbian Patriot, to see the kind of people who also believe and use your list to spread their ideas.

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« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2006, 06:45:32 PM »

About the long list of Jews involved in Soviet Russia...

The Soviet troops that came through the village in Poland where my family came from were Russians - not Jews.  Even if the initial plot of the revolution had been formed mostly by Jews, the Soviet regime never would have lasted almost a century were it not for numerous Russians that supported it.  If you are really looking for someone to blame for the Russian Revolution you can start with a long list of incompetent tsars...
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« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2006, 07:17:16 PM »

Also, in order not to mess it further with Ebor, since he has a tendency to follow ozgeorge every time I mention anything about the jews or prophecies of the elders,
Oh no! You've stumbled on our master plan! Ebor and I are actually in cohoots in an evil conspiracy to take over OCnet in order to turn it into a website of ill repute with gambling and pornography.
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« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2006, 09:25:07 PM »

Oh no! You've stumbled on our master plan! Ebor and I are actually in cohoots in an evil conspiracy to take over OCnet in order to turn it into a website of ill repute with gambling and pornography.

We are?!?  ah err ummm Right!  that must be it.

(But I thought that the plan was to turn it into a website of Reason and Charity to all.  perhaps *I'm* being taken in by a sinister conspiracy  Grin

I'm wondering at the idea that I "have a tendency to follow Ozgeorge".  I thought we were both thinking our own thoughts and trying to follow Jesus on opposite sides of the planet.  Wink

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« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2006, 09:38:46 PM »

(But I thought that the plan was to turn it into a website of Reason and Charity to all.  perhaps *I'm* being taken in by a sinister conspiracy  Grin
Hmmmmmm......."reason and charity" or "gambling and pornography"....tough choice........
Oh well, as long as the evil conspiracy takes over one way or another......

I thought we were both thinking our own thoughts and trying to follow Jesus on opposite sides of the planet.  Wink
"Thinking one's own thoughts" and "trying to follow Jesus"....now there's a couple of dangerously radical ideas!!!
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« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2006, 09:42:18 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107391#msg107391 date=1139957132]
About the long list of Jews involved in Soviet Russia...

The Soviet troops that came through the village in Poland where my family came from were Russians - not Jews.  Even if the initial plot of the revolution had been formed mostly by Jews, the Soviet regime never would have lasted almost a century were it not for numerous Russians that supported it.  If you are really looking for someone to blame for the Russian Revolution you can start with a long list of incompetent tsars...
[/quote]

I agree with your point here, Nektarios. (could that be a sign of the Apocolypse?  Wink )  For all of the lists of "Jews" what if someone were to just list the evil deeds of "Russians" or another nationality?    There are Good and Evil in all countries and nationalities.  

It might be interesting to actually look at the social structures and habits/customs of particular times and places to see what *other* factors might have been in place.  Things like opportunities for education, ill-treatment of one class, group or social strata by another, were people harassed to leave a place or if they stepped beyond proscribed "boundaries" of what a ruling or majority structure thought proper.   Then there are the innumberable cases in History where a group of people are moved to fight against what has become intolerable treatment in one form or another.  Desperation and believing that there is no other way to stop abuse can lead to drastic measures.  

Accusing one group of Human Beings of Control, Evil and Conspiracies, particularly with innuendo and lies like the "Protocols" and undocumented assertions and half-truths is wrong.

Ebor
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« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2006, 09:51:56 PM »

Hmmmmmm......."reason and charity" or "gambling and pornography"....tough choice........
Oh well, as long as the evil conspiracy takes over one way or another......

lol!! Cheesy  I vote for "reason and charity".  But since Charity is a virtue, does that stop it from being an "evil" conspiracy?

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"Thinking one's own thoughts" and "trying to follow Jesus"....now there's a couple of dangerously radical ideas!!!

Live dangerously, maybe.  Grin  and radical like this:

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

Ebor

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« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2006, 10:24:58 PM »

That list seems to have been taken in toto from one at http://christianparty.net/lenin.htm

Having taken a look at other parts of it, the source is an anti-Black, anti-Jewish, anti-woman, white surpremacist site.  It has a "poll" on "exiling Blacks" for instance. Then there is the rather umm "interesting" ideas on what is an "israelite" vs a "Jew", how most of the world is excluded from God's favour as they are not "israelites" i.e. "white Christians" and more.   Roll Eyes

It is interesting that some on the list have a country/nationality but others are "Jew" as though a genetic link or taint is the "cause" of their deeds.  Looking up Trotsky I find that he was born in Ukraine to a non-religious family who were of Jewish descent.  How would he then not be "Ukrainian" I wonder.

Interesting though, Serbian Patriot, to see the kind of people who also believe and use your list to spread their ideas.

Why is it that people try to cover up history, or dismiss facts simply because they have implications they dislike, or are used by people with ideologies they oppose? If the list/stats/event/etc. is true, they why not accept this and make it known. Then you are more educated and better able to make a decision on the matter. If Jews are responsible for the russian revolution, so what? We could start another Holocaust...but if we were really set on doing that, I doubt we'd need history as an excuse, media and propaganda will probably suffice. Or we can list it with the several other atrocities in history, forget about it, and move on. But, by far, the worst of all possible sins is to respond by stifling the free flow of information, in an effort to condemn future generations to live in ignorance, which is worse than death.
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« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2006, 10:27:29 PM »

Why is it that people try to cover up history, or dismiss facts simply because they have implications they dislike,
I never realized a "Jewish conspiracy" was an "historical fact".....
I must be reading the wrong propaganda.... Wink
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« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2006, 10:31:54 PM »

I never realized a "Jewish conspiracy" was an "historical fact".....
I must be reading the wrong propaganda.... Wink

I dont know if a jewish conspiracy was fact or not, but that isn't what was presented, a list of Communist party members with ethnicity is what was presented. If you have an objection with the lists, give evidence for why they are inaccurate; dont try to dismiss them with either an ad hominem against the people who compiled them or a guilt by association argument.
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« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2006, 10:41:38 PM »

I dont know if a jewish conspiracy was fact or not, but that isn't what was presented, a list of Communist party members with ethnicity is what was presented. If you have an objection with the lists, give evidence for why they are inaccurate; dont try to dismiss them with either an ad hominem against the people who compiled them or a guilt by association argument.

Firstly, you assume it's "historical fact" because it appears typeset on a website. Have you checked this out yourself?
Secondly, what is the agenda behind such a list? If I listed the religion of all those involved in the sex scandals of a certain monastery in the Boston area, 100% of them would be Orthodox Christians. I could conclude therefore that Orthodox Christianity is involved in an plot to promote homosexual sex in monasteries worldwide... Here's an historical fact: the second largest group of Communist Party members throughout the world were once Orthodox Christians- is Orthodoxy a Communist plot?
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« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2006, 10:48:41 PM »

Firstly, you assume it's "historical fact" because it appears typeset on a website. Have you checked this out yourself?
Secondly, what is the agenda behind such a list? If I listed the religion of all those involved in the sex scandals of a certain monastery in the Boston area, 100% of them would be Orthodox Christians. I could conclude therefore that Orthodox Christianity is involved in an plot to promote homosexual sex in monasteries worldwide? Here's an historical fact: the second largest group of Communist Party members throughout the world were once Orthodox Christians- is Orthodoxy a Communist plot?

And as orthodox we share blame for what happened and we also paid dearly for our offences. I dont try to let anyone off the hook. From the family names and what I do know about a very few of those people the list seems accurate enough. It seems more reasonable to believe the list to be accurate than a fabrication. But if you truly believe it to be a fabrication, then by all means demonstrate this fact, demonstrate to me where it is inaccurate.

And as far as your monastery analogy, it's a non sequitur, the list refers to the ruling members of the Communist party. If the list refered to the communist party leaders of a medium sized city in russia under the main communist government, then your analogy would be valid, but of course that's not what they were refering to. Deal with the facts, not the politics.
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« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2006, 04:56:43 AM »

Interesting though, Serbian Patriot, to see the kind of people who also believe and use your list to spread their ideas.
Come now, let us be quite clear, either refute the plain facts or accept them.  This has nothing to do with belief, either the facts are wrong or they are right.  Let not play games about how other people use this list to spread their own ideas.  That is their responsibility, but the list itself is historical fact.  Lots of people manipulate history for their own ends, so what?
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« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2006, 05:04:52 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107391#msg107391 date=1139957132]
About the long list of Jews involved in Soviet Russia...
The Soviet troops that came through the village in Poland where my family came from were Russians - not Jews. [/quote]
Well its hardly a surprise that the red army was compromised for the most part by Russians is it?  The list referred to leaders and instigators of the revolution.
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107391#msg107391 date=1139957132]
 Even if the initial plot of the revolution had been formed mostly by Jews, the Soviet regime never would have lasted almost a century were it not for numerous Russians that supported it.  If you are really looking for someone to blame for the Russian Revolution you can start with a long list of incompetent tsars...
[/quote]
No doubt there are many to blame, Orthodox and non-Orthodox.  But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement.  If I were to speculate as to why this irrational rejection of facts were the the case, I could only conclude that it is as a result of a guilt trip induced by years of western media propaganda.  Why else would the topic be taboo, and why else would the Jewish holocaust during WW2 achieve some kind of religious significance in the secular west.  The western media does not even dare to recognise the Armenian holocaust by the Turks as 'A' holocaust, yet the Jewish holocaust is referred to as 'THE' holocaust.
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« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2006, 05:23:00 AM »

Firstly, you assume it's "historical fact" because it appears typeset on a website. Have you checked this out yourself?
More importantly have you checked this out for yourself?  Stop going round in circles.

Secondly, what is the agenda behind such a list?

Would you ask for an agenda if i were to tell you that the majority of the nazi party were Germans? 


If I listed the religion of all those involved in the sex scandals of a certain monastery in the Boston area, 100% of them would be Orthodox Christians.
Well since you havent made clear what monastery you are referring to, I can only assume that it is an Orthodox one.  It therefore logically follows that if there were any sex scandals there involving monks or clergy, there would be a 100% chance of an Orthodox Christian being involved.  What an awful analogy.  Compare this to the proportion of Jews in the population of the Russian empire, and find the probability that out of the total of 61 members of the executive committee, 41 were Jews.  It doesnt take a statistician to tell you that it is less than 100% as in your analogy.  In fact it is closer to 0% than it is to 100%.
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« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2006, 05:30:25 AM »

lol!! Cheesy  I vote for "reason and charity".  But since Charity is a virtue, does that stop it from being an "evil" conspiracy?

Live dangerously, maybe.  Grin  and radical like this:

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."
Ebor
Why is it that whenever we are on the topic of the Jews, where it is suggested that they were not all innocent little lambs to the slaughter, someone always has to start invoking scriptural references to love.  Nowhere in that quote does Jesus say repress the truth, and let noone be responsible for their actions, so that you may love one another.  Historical fact has nothing to do with love. 
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« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2006, 05:39:35 AM »

More importantly have you checked this out for yourself?  Stop going round in circles.

I can't be bothered. But I think that if you're gonna present it and make public statements for which you will give account on the Day of Judgement, it might be in your interests to check it out first.
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« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2006, 10:25:25 AM »

But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement.

Ah, but that's a misleading turn of phrase. What does "Jewish involvement" mean? Does it mean that some of those involved were Jews, or that specifically Jewish organizations were involved? It is laughable to deny the first, in a sense. Yet even then one stumbles over the confusion between Jews as a religiously identified people, and Jews as an ethnically identified people.

But Jews here and Jews there do not add up to a Jewish-based conspiracy, and even so-- even if most of the perpetrators of the communist revolution were Jewish, this doesn't add up to a Jewish conspiracy! A long list of names of dubious origin and questionable accuracy isn't much in the way of proof either.

Nobody denies that there was a Bolshevik conspiracy, and it's clear that it was heavily populated with Jews. (See this Wikipedia article for a pretty good summary.) Does the presence of a lot of Jews in the Manhattan project make it a Jewish conspiracy too? I hardly think so; it's more of a function of Jewish value of the intellectual, compounded by Hitler driving these men to Britain and the USA.
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« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2006, 01:16:16 PM »

But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement. 

I am unaware of anyone who says that there were *no* persons of Jewish ancestry or background involved in the Russian Revolution.  Saying that such people were not the *only* ones involved or part of conspiracy behind it is not the same thing as saying that there was *no* such involvement.  It is not an all-or-nothing, binary situation.  Not agreeing with you're view is not the same thing as denial.

Quote
Why else would the topic be taboo, and why else would the Jewish holocaust during WW2 achieve some kind of religious significance in the secular west.  The western media does not even dare to recognise the Armenian holocaust by the Turks as 'A' holocaust, yet the Jewish holocaust is referred to as 'THE' holocaust.

To you maybe it seems to have a "religious" significance.  To others why would such an enormity and Evil thing not be something to remember as a horrifying example so that it wouldn't happen again?  Just to go over the basics it was not only Jewish people but thousands  and thousands of others who were slaughtered in the concentration camps: Poles, Slavs, Russians, Gypsies, RCs and Protestants who dared to resist (ever hear of Bonhoeffer? or Maximillian Kolb?) and many more.  Earlier on, the physically and mentally disabled were gotten rid of: the deaf, those with epilepsy, Down Syndrome and other "defects".   Perhaps I read other things then you do, but this has never been hidden that the Nazi regime killed more then just people who were of Jewish ethnicity.

And btw, the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks in the early 20th century has not been forgotten.  Maybe it's because I knew some people whose ancestors fled, but the information is available and not hidden.

Ebor
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« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2006, 01:36:07 PM »

I dont know if a jewish conspiracy was fact or not, but that isn't what was presented, a list of Communist party members with ethnicity is what was presented.

Well, that brings a question to mind.  You say that it was a list of party members by "ethnicity".  Whereas, I read the "Russian" and "Polish" as *nationality*.  So is the relation what country or area people claim as their origin/place or is it "ethnicity" or "religion"?   Then there's "What motivated these men to do what they did? Did they have reasons to revolt against what they saw as oppressive?  or to just get *their* side into Power?

Some time back, when Madeline Albright, raised RC then became Episcopalian,  found out that her ancestors had been Jewish there were people who then accused her of being part of such a "Jewish" conspiracy to run things.  She is a naturalized American citizen, not raised in any Jewish tradition,  and not religiously practicing as a Jew.  But her ancestry was enough for some. 

Maybe I've just been unfortunate to have seen more of this sort of thing.  It's been popular amonst a subset of Fundamentalist/Apocalyptic Christianity in the US for over 30 years.

Ebor

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« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2006, 02:00:29 PM »

Well, whatever popular opinion may be today it was certainly believed by European and American leaders at the time that the Russian Revolution was indeed Jewish led. 

For example:
In Richard Pipes'(Harvard prof/historian) book The Russian Revolution we see that Kaiser William II looked upon Russia as having been "turned over to the vengeance of the Jews".

In his essayZIONISM versus BOLSHEVISM: A STRUGGLE FOR THE SOUL OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE Winston Churchill writes:

In violent opposition to all this sphere of Jewish effort rise the schemes of the International Jews. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.

And

It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.

A United States Army intelligence report from inside Russia after the Revolution and sent in March 1919 by US military intelligence officer Captain Montgomery Schuyler reads:

it is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning, guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type...

And

384 commissars there were 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial Government.

Historian Richard Pipes also points out the huge Jewish role in the revolution. His explanation, as far as I understand it, for the high percentage of Jews involved is the fact that Jews were the most ill treated in Russia, so why not rebel. I don't happen to buy that argument, but he's a hell of a lot smarter then me... then again, he has a job to keep.

I'd also recommend Professor Kevin McDonald's book Culture of Critique for better understanding Jewish involvement in what we would understand to be movements and schools of thought which challenge the existence of Western Christian civilization.

A preface to the book can be found here:
http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books-Preface.html
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« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2006, 02:13:17 PM »

I don't know about "most ill-treated".  There seems to have been plenty of ill-treatment to go around if one were of the lower classes or minority groups. 

But education seems to be an important factor: getting some to change ones situation for example. 

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« Reply #84 on: February 15, 2006, 02:35:49 PM »

To you maybe it seems to have a "religious" significance.¦nbsp; To others why would such an enormity and Evil thing not be something to remember as a horrifying example so that it wouldn't happen again?

But in the response of several European governments to the (a) holocaust, they have committed an evil as bad as any Hitler ever attempted, and far worse than the holocaust. They do not seem to be content with merely killing a man, they want to deprive him of his thought and reason; they are committing the greatest sin of Hitler, the burning of books, the eradication of the free flow of information, the destruction of the freedom of speech and of the press, and in turn they seek to undermine the freedoms of thought and reason, to make us no higher than the animals.

While I disagree with those who deny the holocaust, on grounds of historical evidence not because of their political philosophy (though I disagree with that too, but it is unrelated to whether or not the holocaust occured), I support, in the fullest and most fundamental way, their right to teach and publish such things, as a right that is fundamental to our dignity as human. These are rights more precious than life, and rights that we should be more than willing to sacrifice our lives and even the lives of others in the defence of. The fact that the citizens of these countries are not up in arms about these open assults against the freedoms of speech and press shows how depraved these nations are. Unfortunately, I do not expect any more from the citizens of our once-free federation, we are not the country of our forebearers.

Well, that brings a question to mind.¦nbsp; You say that it was a list of party members by "ethnicity".¦nbsp; Whereas, I read the "Russian" and "Polish" as *nationality*.¦nbsp; So is the relation what country or area people claim as their origin/place or is it "ethnicity" or "religion"?¦nbsp; ¦nbsp;Then there's "What motivated these men to do what they did? Did they have reasons to revolt against what they saw as oppressive?¦nbsp; or to just get *their* side into Power?

Well, Russian and Polish seem to me to be just as much ethnicities as nationalities; howerver, the list could be rewritten to read 'Jew' and 'Gentile' if that would make things clearer? As far as ethnicity vs. religion in Judaism, I think it is an artificial distinction that was placed on them from the outside. Ethnicity is probably the more broad term, and with this ethnicity there are religious and non-religious Jews. The very few 'christian jews' are not really a consideration, for they generally are ostracized from their community and absorbed into the 'gentile' community. As far as their motives, that's simple, they were communists, they desired power and envied those who had it...but this is true of all communists, jewish or otherwise.

Quote
Some time back, when Madeline Albright, raised RC then became Episcopalian,¦nbsp; found out that her ancestors had been Jewish there were people who then accused her of being part of such a "Jewish" conspiracy to run things.¦nbsp; She is a naturalized American citizen, not raised in any Jewish tradition,¦nbsp; and not religiously practicing as a Jew.¦nbsp; But her ancestry was enough for some.

Which was an absurd claim considering her history and upbringing, and I'm not saying I agree with these people. I simply believe in their right to present their posistion, and if they present actual facts everyone has a responsibility to take those facts seriously, even if they lead to a conclusion that they are uncomfortable with.
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« Reply #85 on: February 15, 2006, 03:07:43 PM »

I can't be bothered. But I think that if you're gonna present it and make public statements for which you will give account on the Day of Judgement, it might be in your interests to check it out first.
Well if you cant be bothered, then restrain yourself from going round in circles using various unsuccessful tactics to undermine the list, including concocting ridiculous analogies.
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« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2006, 03:24:04 PM »

Yet even then one stumbles over the confusion between Jews as a religiously identified people, and Jews as an ethnically identified people.
Theres no real confusion here, I have already stated that we are talking about ethnic Jews.

But Jews here and Jews there do not add up to a Jewish-based conspiracy, and even so-- even if most of the perpetrators of the communist revolution were Jewish, this doesn't add up to a Jewish conspiracy!
You are missing one key word here: NECESSARILY.  Jews here and Jews there do not NECESSARILY add up to a Jewish conspiracy.  But we cannot, as you would have us do, exclude any possiblility of this being the case.
 
Nobody denies that there was a Bolshevik conspiracy, and it's clear that it was heavily populated with Jews.  it's more of a function of Jewish value of the intellectual, compounded by Hitler driving these men to Britain and the USA.

Im sure it took much organisational and intellectual skill to carry out the revolution.
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« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2006, 03:51:25 PM »

 Perhaps I read other things then you do, but this has never been hidden that the Nazi regime killed more then just people who were of Jewish ethnicity.
I agree that it has never been hidden, but you cannot deny that when THE holocaust is referred to, it is synonimous with Jewish suffering.  For instance in the states, Jewish organisations actively prevent other groups being represented in holocaust memorial museums.  They seem to want a monopoly on suffering to futher their own agenda.



And btw, the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks in the early 20th century has not been forgotten.  Maybe it's because I knew some people whose ancestors fled, but the information is available and not hidden.

Ebor
Your ignoring what I said.  I didnt say that the information is so hidden that it can barely be found.  What I said was that the mass media refer to the Jewish holocaust of WW2 as 'THE holocaust', whereas they refuse to refer to the Armenian genocide as even 'A holocaust'.  Notice that they refer to one genocide as if it is the only holocaust in history, whereas with another one they refuse to even call it a holocaust. 

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« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2006, 04:33:48 PM »

Historian Richard Pipes also points out the huge Jewish role in the revolution. His explanation, as far as I understand it, for the high percentage of Jews involved is the fact that Jews were the most ill treated in Russia, so why not rebel.
Jews in Russia did suffer terribly under Tsar Alexander III (father of Tsar St. Nicholas II), along with the poor of other Faiths as well (including Orthodoxy).
After the assassination of of his father, Alexander II in 1881, there was a wave of pogroms in Russia against the Jewish community under Alexander III. This led to a large increase in Jews leaving Russia. Of these, more than 90 per cent settled in the United States.
Under a law introduced by Alexander III, all Russian Jews were forced to live in what became known as the Pale of Jewish Settlement. Exceptions were made for rich business people, students and for certain professions. The Pale comprised the ten Polish and fifteen neighbouring Russian provinces, stretching from Riga to Odessa, from Silesia to Vilna and Kiev.
The October Revolution was a reaction to oppression and reactionary government (Alexander III put a stop to the reforms of his father, Alexander II who was the Liberator of the Serfs two years before emancipation in the US).
Incompitent government is incompitent government, whether the leader of the government is Orthodox or not- and those oppressed by it will inevitably rise up against it. And if we are surprised by this, then we need to study a bit more political science. There is no such thing as "Divine Right of Kings", and people know this now. Even being anointed by the Church does not make a King immune to making bad decisions or prevent him becoming a tyrant.

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« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2006, 04:50:23 PM »

George,

Please reference the site or articles that you copy and paste. Or if you are going to copy something because it is "fact," at least make the effort to put it into your own words.
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« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2006, 05:15:50 PM »

Please reference the site or articles that you copy and paste. Or if you are going to copy something because it is "fact," at least make the effort to put it into your own words.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSjews.htm
And to be clear, my view is that had I been living in Russia at the beginning of last century, I too would have probably joined the Communists in a misguided effort to reform Russia. Tsar St. Nicholas is a holy martyr, but was a hopeless Tsar in my opinion, as demonstrated by his admitting Rasputin to the Court and treating him as a "staretz". When the economy was already failing due to the war and the poor were subsequently suffering even more, seeing my king entertaining and supporting a debauched nutter and his family would have made my blood boil.
And here's the logic I would have used to justify this to myself: Our Lord once broke the cleanliness laws by touching the funeral beir of a young man out of compassion for his widowed mother, and similarly, as "unclean" as the Communists were, if they are the only group speaking out for the oppressed poor, then touching something unclean for the sake of compassion for the oppressed may also be justified.
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« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2006, 05:25:11 PM »

And, of course, hindsight is 20/20.
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« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2006, 06:37:10 PM »

I agree that it has never been hidden, but you cannot deny that when THE holocaust is referred to, it is synonimous with Jewish suffering.  For instance in the states, Jewish organisations actively prevent other groups being represented in holocaust memorial museums.

I'm looking at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website, and while they emphasize that Jews were far and away the primary victims, they also point at Romanys (gypsies), German-Africans, the disabled, and several political and religious minorities as being persecuted in like manner.
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« Reply #93 on: February 15, 2006, 06:51:20 PM »

You are missing one key word here: NECESSARILY.  Jews here and Jews there do not NECESSARILY add up to a Jewish conspiracy.  But we cannot, as you would have us do, exclude any possiblility of this being the case.

Well, yeah, I can. You are acting as if there is positive evidence. You can't produce it, so you lean on lame words like "necessarily". To convince me that the Bolsheviks were a Jewish conspiracy, you're going to need a lot more than evidence of numbers. What I see is a conspiracy in which Jews were disproportionately represented-- or maybe not even that, given that (perhaps) Jews were more numerous in the proper social class and had ample grievance to hate the established government. The thing that I don't see is that the October Revolution formed out of a sense of Jewish ethnic identity. What I see instead is a conspiracy in whcih this identity seems not to matter at all. Lenin was Russian, Trostsky was Jewish, and Stalin was Georgian, when it comes to that.

Quote
Im sure it took much organisational and intellectual skill to carry out the revolution.

So you're saying that, on the whole, us gentiles are too stupid and disorganized to conspire?(Then again, seeing how some of the Slavic ethnic events get run....  Wink )
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« Reply #94 on: February 15, 2006, 08:11:08 PM »

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Well its hardly a surprise that the red army was compromised for the most part by Russians is it?  The list referred to leaders and instigators of the revolution.

That the red army was compromised of Russians is precisely my point.  It was Russians who carried out the atrocities of the Soviet regime.  Since we are on the topic of Poland, the stereotype of all Jews being communists was quite common there as well.  Jan Gross adresses that in his book Neighbors - collaboration with the NKVD was was more common among ethnic Poles than Polish Jews.  Had the Soviet Regime been merely a giant Jewish plot, one would have expected all the Polish Jews to have joined the Red Army, no?  While many sympathized towards that cause, that is understandable considering the other power controling Poland at that time, for obvious reasons.

Quote
No doubt there are many to blame, Orthodox and non-Orthodox.  But that is exactly my point, people seem unwilling to admit ANY jewish involvement.

Maybe some "people" don't.  I don't deny there was involvement by a high number of Jews in the October Revolution.  To say that means there is a vast Jewish conspiracy is to assume the truth of you premise before historical investigation.  There are other factors to consider in why so many Jews were involved, social class and previous position in society under the Tsars.  And of course none of it would have been possible were it not for many Russians who also believed in the revolutionary cause.

Quote
If I were to speculate as to why this irrational rejection of facts were the the case, I could only conclude that it is as a result of a guilt trip induced by years of western media propaganda.  Why else would the topic be taboo, and why else would the Jewish holocaust during WW2 achieve some kind of religious significance in the secular west.  The western media does not even dare to recognise the Armenian holocaust by the Turks as 'A' holocaust, yet the Jewish holocaust is referred to as 'THE' holocaus

Maybe you are so resentfull of this and see through it so well because the Serbs have been trying to cast themselves as innocent victims for years and never the aggressors - but I might add they have failed miserably at the PR game whereas the Jews haven't.  While some Jews have definetely turned this into The Holocaust Inudstry (the title of a book on this topic, btw) that is really irrelevant to the role of Jews as a part of a Jewish conspiracy in the formation of the Soviety regime.  Also to link these events presupposes that the Jews living within Russia formed a single community with those of other parts of Eastern and Central Europe - which was especially untrue at the time of the revolution and even through WWII. 
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« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2006, 07:16:52 AM »

Why is it that whenever we are on the topic of the Jews, where it is suggested that they were not all innocent little lambs to the slaughter, someone always has to start invoking scriptural references to love.

Because God is Love, as the Beloved Apostle reveals to us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our enemies.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our neighbour as ourselves.
Because our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love one another in the same way that He loves us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ told us that if we Love Him, we must keep His commandments.
There is no getting around Love if we are going to make any claim to be Christians. Love is central to the Gospel life. And if we are going to ignore the commandment to Love, then fine, but don't pretend to do so in the name of Christianity or Christ, otherwise, we will heap even more sin on sin. Christians who turn their backs on Our Lord Jesus Christ's commandment to Love turn their backs on Christ. And if we do this, then there is no need for a "Jewish conspiracy" to destroy Christianity- we have successfully destroyed it ourselves.
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« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2006, 07:30:11 AM »

I'm looking at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website, and while they emphasize that Jews were far and away the primary victims, they also point at Romanys (gypsies), German-Africans, the disabled, and several political and religious minorities as being persecuted in like manner.

And I notice on the website that the "Wexner Learning Cente" at the Museum is currently holding an exhibition about the Genocide in Darfur entitled "Genocide Emergency — Darfur, Sudan: Who Will Survive Today?"....A Holocaust Museum speaking out about genocide towards Christians? Surely not! Wink
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« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2006, 07:32:01 AM »

OzGeorge... your post saddens me. Have you not heard that you aren't supposed to start a sentence with "because?" Yet there you are starting 5, yes, I repeat, 5 whole sentences with that deaded word. Is outrage!

Besides that, great post  Wink Grin
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« Reply #98 on: February 16, 2006, 07:32:53 AM »

Have you not heard that you aren't supposed to start a sentence with "because?"
Because why? Wink
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« Reply #99 on: February 16, 2006, 07:33:54 AM »

Because why? Wink

Be wary, the word usage nazis may be coming for you...
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« Reply #100 on: February 16, 2006, 07:38:48 AM »

Be wary, the word usage nazis may be coming for you...
And I'm sure they're not the only Nazis who may have a problem with me. Wink
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« Reply #101 on: February 16, 2006, 07:42:00 AM »

And I'm sure they're not the only Nazis who may have a problem with me. Wink

I entirely agree with that statement  Grin
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« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2006, 09:08:30 AM »

And to be clear, my view is that had I been living in Russia at the beginning of last century, I too would have probably joined the Communists in a misguided effort to reform Russia.
Doesnt really surprise me!
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« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2006, 09:12:44 AM »

I'm looking at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website, and while they emphasize that Jews were far and away the primary victims, they also point at Romanys (gypsies), German-Africans, the disabled, and several political and religious minorities as being persecuted in like manner.
Check out Norman Finkelsteins book, 'The Holocaust Industry', if you get the chance.  It is he who says that Jewish groups have prevented others from being represented in Holocaust memorial centres.
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« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2006, 09:34:15 AM »

Well, yeah, I can. You are acting as if there is positive evidence.
Not at all, I am acting as if there is a possibility that this is true, and that it may therefore be considered.¦nbsp; ¦nbsp;

You can't produce it, so you lean on lame words like "necessarily".
Im just leaving options open, instead of condemning others because of a knee-jerk reaction from years of brainwashing.

What I see is a conspiracy in which Jews were disproportionately represented-- or maybe not even that, given that (perhaps) Jews were more numerous in the proper social class and had ample grievance to hate the established government.
Jews were not more numerous in any social class at the time of the revolution.¦nbsp;


The thing that I don't see is that the October Revolution formed out of a sense of Jewish ethnic identity.



 What I see instead is a conspiracy in whcih this identity seems not to matter at all.
Lets see what Jewish publications at the time have to say:
"There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself, in the fact that so
many Jews are Bolsheviks, in the fact that the ideals of Bolshevism
at many points are consonant with the finest ideals of Judaism." --
London Jewish Chronicle, 4 April 1919.

"What Jewish idealism and Jewish discontent have so powerfully
contributed to produce in Russia, the same historic qualities of the
Jewish mind are tending to promote in other countries." -- New York
American Hebrew, 20 September 1920.





 Lenin was Russian, Trostsky was Jewish, and Stalin was Georgian, when it comes to that.
Well Lenin also had Jewish ancestry.

So you're saying that, on the whole, us gentiles are too stupid and disorganized to conspire?(Then again, seeing how some of the Slavic ethnic events get run....¦nbsp; Wink )
No you misunderstand me, I was merely alluding to the fact that the revolution was not a spontaneous act by some poor disenfanchised workers or farmers.¦nbsp; It took considerable planning and financing, including outside the borders of Russia.
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« Reply #105 on: February 16, 2006, 09:53:23 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107539#msg107539 date=1140048668]
That the red army was compromised of Russians is precisely my point.  It was Russians who carried out the atrocities of the Soviet regime. 
[/quote]
No it was not just Russians, it was most ethnic groups from the Soviet Union.  Men at the top who not only allowed it but encouraged it are to blame.  People like bloodthirsy propaganda minister Ilya Ehrenburg:

"The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means
to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us
to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited.
We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you
have wasted that day ... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet,
kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the
front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the
meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian
and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another --
there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do
not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of
Germans killed by you. Kill the German -- that is your grandmother's
request. Kill the German -- that is your child's prayer. Kill the
German -- that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not
let through. Kill."


[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107539#msg107539 date=1140048668]
 ÃƒÆ’‚  Had the Soviet Regime been merely a giant Jewish plot, one would have expected all the Polish Jews to have joined the Red Army, no?  [/quote]
I cannot imagine anything more illogical or naive.  For the sake of argument, assuming there was a giant Jewish plot, if they were in control of the power structure, why on earth would they then decide to become cannon fodder, when they can just pull the strings from the top?

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8181.msg107539#msg107539 date=1140048668]
Maybe you are so resentfull of this and see through it so well because the Serbs have been trying to cast themselves as innocent victims for years and never the aggressors - but I might add they have failed miserably at the PR game whereas the Jews haven't.
[/quote]
I am not at all resentfull of anything but the refusal to consider ideas out of blind ideological reasons.  We Serbs have commited a lot of sins for which we have and will be punished, not quite sure why that is relevant though.  You guys seem a bit obssessed with analysing peoples motives instead of the facts.


 
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« Reply #106 on: February 16, 2006, 10:03:42 AM »

Because God is Love, as the Beloved Apostle reveals to us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our enemies.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love our neighbour as ourselves.
Because our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to Love one another in the same way that He loves us.
Because Our Lord Jesus Christ told us that if we Love Him, we must keep His commandments.
There is no getting around Love if we are going to make any claim to be Christians. Love is central to the Gospel life. And if we are going to ignore the commandment to Love, then fine, but don't pretend to do so in the name of Christianity or Christ, otherwise, we will heap even more sin on sin. Christians who turn their backs on Our Lord Jesus Christ's commandment to Love turn their backs on Christ. And if we do this, then there is no need for a "Jewish conspiracy" to destroy Christianity- we have successfully destroyed it ourselves.

Indeed, now contrast this with the ideology of the communists who you think you would have joined had you been around at the time.

"Terror as the demonstration of the will and strength of the working
class is historically justified, precisely because the proletariat
was able to break the political will of the Intelligentsia, pacify
the professional men of various categories and work, and gradually
subordinate them to its own aims within the fields of their
specialties." -- Trotsky, Izvestia 10 January 1919.

"Blood and mercilessness must be our
slogans." --Trotsky, International Communist Congress in Moscow

"We will make our hearts cruel, hard and immovable, so that no mercy
will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a
sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea.
Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of
hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their
own blood! For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinoviev and
Volodarsky, let there be floods of blood of the bourgeois -- more
blood! As much as possible!"--Hirsch Apfelbaum (aka Zinoviev), Krasnaya Gazeta (1 September 1918)

"This is unheard of! The energy and mass
nature of the terror must be encouraged!" -- Lenin, June 1918 reprimanding the Leningrad Soviet for being too genteel in their treatment of opponents

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It beggars belief that a Christian could possibly think that the communist cause was something that would have inspired him to join had he been alive at the time.

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« Reply #107 on: February 16, 2006, 10:49:05 AM »

This topic is getting close to going over the line from legitimate discussion to personal attacks.  Please keep the discussion about issues and not personal or I will lock the thread.
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« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2006, 11:47:21 AM »

You guys seem a bit obssessed with analysing peoples motives instead of the facts.

LOL...now THAT is the probably the most insightful thing that has been said by anyone on this thread.  Cheesy
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« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2006, 12:37:27 PM »

What's interesting to me is that it's not just in Russia where a disproportionate amount of Jews were revolutionary marxists. As Churchill mentioned (in my earlier post), many leading communists worldwide were Jews. Interestingly, Jews themselves, at least in some capacity, admit their role. In the 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica under the entry for "Communism" you can read: "The Communist Movement and ideology played an important part In Jewish life, particularly in the  1920s, 1930s and during and after World War II."

And

"Communist trends became widespread in virtually all Jewish communities. In some countries, Jews became the leading element in the legal and illegal Communist Parties.."

And

"Individual Jews played an important role in the early stages of Bolshevism and the Soviet Regime"

The encyclopdia also mentions how Russian revolutionary Jews were encouraged to change their names so as not to seem too alien to Russian people and thereby win greater trust.
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« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2006, 01:13:20 PM »

I'm going to toss out some points for consideration and to clarify terms/ideas? 

What do people here mean by a person is "Jewish"?  Is it a believer in and follower of the tenets of the Faith of Judaism?  Is it an ethnic group?  If so, does having that in a person's background somehow "trump" other 'eths'?  How much if so?  Any?

"Lenin also had Jewish ancestry" Did he identify himself as a Jew?  as a Russian? Why does his ancestry matter compared to his own deeds?  Is this somehow to show that there is a genetic basis for something?

What are the objections to "Jews" that have been seen in some threads and on other sites?  Is it because they are not Christian?  Is it a matter of religious belief? 

The religious Jews that I know say that if a Jew converts to Christianity then they aren't a Jew any more but a Christian. So some see it as religous.  But Edith Stein, who had converted to RC and was a nun was hauled off to the camps by the Nazis.  They saw it as inate or genetic, I guess.

Bogo's earlier post about Jews working for things to eliminate "anti-Jewish" views or deeds or social structures had me think: "What's wrong with that?"  African-Americans have been working to get rid of things like Jim Crow laws and other prejudices.  Groups of mostly women have worked and rallied and planned and protested to change how they were treated.  There are the records of centuries of ill-treatment and cruelty addressed to Jews in Europe; why *wouldn't* some who had gotten some education and a chance to improve matters want to eliminate evil addressed to their group?

Ebor


Why would there be more concern about a Jewish "Conspiracy" as opposed to a Tatar Conspiracy, or a Georgian Conspiracy or a Lithuanian one (thinking of other nationalities/ethnicities involved in the Russian Revolution)?
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« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2006, 01:15:31 PM »

The encyclopdia also mentions how Russian revolutionary Jews were encouraged to change their names so as not to seem too alien to Russian people and thereby win greater trust.

And Stalin changed his name, too. 

If you want people to follow you, you have to connect with them. Names are one way.

Ebor
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« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2006, 01:19:48 PM »

If I might add one more question to Ebor's: If a disproportionate number of Jews participated in the Revelution, could this not have been brought about because of the disproportionate degree of ill treatment that Jews received in Tsarist Russia? Put another way, if you slap people around, why are you suprised when they take advantage of a chance to take you out of power?
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« Reply #113 on: February 16, 2006, 01:24:25 PM »

Check out Norman Finkelsteins book, 'The Holocaust Industry', if you get the chance.  It is he who says that Jewish groups have prevented others from being represented in Holocaust memorial centres.

Yet the link provided shows that others *are* represented at at least some of them.  They are not being ignored.  

Offering counterviews and data and opinions to yours and not agreeing with your ideas or interpretations is not the same thing as a " refusal to consider ideas out of blind ideological reasons".

No one is arguing that there were not persons of Jewish ancestry involved in the Russian revolution.  That is historical fact.  But the interpretation of such facts can be called to question.    And it's the "Conspiracy" part that is being questioned.  

Why would there be a *Jewish* Conspiracy?  Religious reasons? Why?  Political reasons?  If so, what politics?  Rebelling against cruelty and maltreatment has driven many such revolts.

Ebor
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« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2006, 01:42:44 PM »

I'm going to toss out some points for consideration and to clarify terms/ideas? 

What do people here mean by a person is "Jewish"?  Is it a believer in and follower of the tenets of the Faith of Judaism?  Is it an ethnic group?  If so, does having that in a person's background somehow "trump" other 'eths'?  How much if so?  Any?

"Lenin also had Jewish ancestry" Did he identify himself as a Jew?  as a Russian? Why does his ancestry matter compared to his own deeds?  Is this somehow to show that there is a genetic basis for something?

What are the objections to "Jews" that have been seen in some threads and on other sites?  Is it because they are not Christian?  Is it a matter of religious belief? 

The religious Jews that I know say that if a Jew converts to Christianity then they aren't a Jew any more but a Christian. So some see it as religous.  But Edith Stein, who had converted to RC and was a nun was hauled off to the camps by the Nazis.  They saw it as inate or genetic, I guess.

Bogo's earlier post about Jews working for things to eliminate "anti-Jewish" views or deeds or social structures had me think: "What's wrong with that?"  African-Americans have been working to get rid of things like Jim Crow laws and other prejudices.  Groups of mostly women have worked and rallied and planned and protested to change how they were treated.  There are the records of centuries of ill-treatment and cruelty addressed to Jews in Europe; why *wouldn't* some who had gotten some education and a chance to improve matters want to eliminate evil addressed to their group?

Ebor


Why would there be more concern about a Jewish "Conspiracy" as opposed to a Tatar Conspiracy, or a Georgian Conspiracy or a Lithuanian one (thinking of other nationalities/ethnicities involved in the Russian Revolution)?


Here's one man's opinion.

March 27, 2005
Commentaries on Literature About the Jews(3)

Kevin MacDonald:The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements, Published by Praeger in 1994; reissued by 1st books in 2002.

Kevin MacDonald contends that "intellectual activity in the service of evolutionary goals has been a characteristic of Judaism dating from the ancient world," and the third volume of his trilogy on the Jews argues the case by examining several intellectual movements in which Jews played a dominant role: Anthropology as developed by Franz Boas and his school; Psychoanalysis developed by Sigmund Freud; and the Frankfurt School of Social Research (also known as the Congress for Cultural Freedom) developed by Theodore Adorno, and Max Horkeimer, with Erich Fromm, Hannah Arendt, and others.

Framing these social and intellectual movements is the larger question of the Jewish critique of gentile culture and the enormous investment of Jewish lobbying groups and influence of public opinion to favor large-scale immigration of non-European groups into the USA and other Western societies. Concerning the general "culture of critique," the embrace of Marxism by large numbers of Jews and the over-representation of Jews in Russian Bolshevism is examined. This topic has been more recently taken up by Yuri Slezkine in his recent book, The Jewish Century [Princeton, 2004]

An article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer reminds us that the question of Jewish ethnicity remains of vital importance to many Jews. Describing the adoption by many Jewish couples of Asian infants - mostly girls, and mostly Chinese - the article mentions that, for many Jews, the practice forces them to confront 'what a Jewish kid looks like.' The author of a book on the widepread practice of Asian adoptions remarked that such children may face prejudice within the Jewish community itself -- "We should expect it," he said, "It would be foolish of us not to acknowledge that race is an issue in our culture."

Kevin MacDonald is an evolutionary psychologist at the University of California, Long Beach, and he became interested in Judaism as a "collective evolutionary strategy" that merited study. His first book, A People That Shall Dwell Alone: Judaism as a Group Evolutionary Strategy was an evolutionary study of Judaism, and the second, Separation and Its Discontents: Toward an Evolutionary Theory of anti-Semitism presented an evolutionary theory of anti-Semitism. The third and final volume under review here presents the several 20th century intellectual movements, spearheaded by people who strongly identified themselves as Jews, as another variant of the evolutionary strategy, as many of them, either overtly or covertly, saw these movements as serving Jewish interests. Their intellectual advocacy was couched in a language of moral universalism that disguised moral particularism -- i.e., a way to serve particular interests of Jews. Thus the study of such movements becomes inevitably involved with issues of deception or self-deception.

The Culture of Critique is a portent of what I suspect will become a passionate debate in the next phase of intellectual history -- that of coming to grips with "how the Western world has become Judaized." Knowledge of this fact is certainly nothing new, although any expressions that this development may not be altogether positive are considered de trop. Paul Johnson's History of the Jews, a book entirely favorable to its subject, speaks of this "Judaization" in the realm of finance. Johnson remarks that

    "It was the unconscious collective instinct of the Jews to depersonalize finance and to rationalize the general economic process... The Jews could do this because while intensely conservative (as a rule) within their own narrow and isolated world, they had no share in or emotional commitment to society as a whole, and so could watch its old traditions, methods and institutions being demolished without a pang -- could, indeed, play a leading role in the process of destruction. They were thus natural capitalist entrepreneurs." (Italics mine.)

Kevin MacDonald picks up the note, but plays a less complimentary tune. Where Paul Johnson sees anti-Semitism as the perverse habit of Christianity, MacDonald sees it as arising primarily from conflicts of interest and loyalty. He points to the inevitable double standard of Jewish rationalism, when it condemned racial bias in gentile society while overlooking its own. In Weimar Germany anti-Semitism was fueled by the perception that Jews attempted to undermine gentile social cohesion while remaining highly committed to a cohesive group themselves. To acknowledge this social tension is not to jutify the Nazi persecution of the Jews. It is only to begin to take a step towards understanding it.

Leftist ideologies, couched in the language of moral universalism, appealed to Jews because it was a way of minimizing Jew-gentile differences while allowing the Jews to preserve their group identity. Thus radical movements became a form of "crypto-Judaism" -- For "Jews can remain Jews because being a Jew is no longer important." The Jewish dominance of the Left, especially the Old Left, may have been a factor in causing it to be less effective in the recruitment of the gentile working class. In any case, the Left in the USA appears to be a scattered and a spent force, and the Jewish Old Left has metamorphosed - metastatized - into the neoconservative New Right. The spent force of progressivist thought in the US has continued to sink deeper into the mire of atomism that caused it to be rejected by many Americans. Abortion, same sex marriage, and feminism are all destructive of the social bonds of gentile society. "Radical individualism among gentiles," as MacDonald comments, "is an excellent prescription for the continuation of Judaism as a cohesive group." That is because the high-investment parenting and strong group cohesion of Jews are relatively unaffected by such atomizing and disintegrating forces that are tearing America apart. It is no wonder that "white America" pulled back in revulsion, no wonder they voted for George Bush, even against their interests. But "white America" rejected such an atomized leftism only to embrace a fundamentalist and Zionized Christianity. Truly, this was a diabolic exchange!

The Culture of Critique is written in the sober language of social science. But it is perhaps a harbinger of things to come. The Holocaust Cult prevents the open discussion of Jewish ethnocentrism while it memorializes the failed ideology of German racialism. Sooner or later people will demand that these monuments to Hitler be pulled down, and that Jews likewise repudiate the racialist element in their own faith.

A "culture of critique" analysis needs to be done of feminism, that daughter of Marxism -- "recycled class war adjusted for gender," as Henry Makow puts it. In its sheer destructive power, feminism has been more effective in American society even than ideologies of class or race war. Doublethink, deception and double standards have characterized the modern feminist movement ever since Betty Friedan compared the lot of the American housewife to that of a concentration camp victim. I don't know if anyone has ever done a study of the proportion of Jewish women in the feminist movement, especially its leaders. That study might prove to be very revealing. In my view feminism is mainly a masked critique of the patriarchalist and anti-womanist disposition of Judaism. For Jewish women to have criticized it would have been too threatening - and even, with the strong tendency of Jews to close ranks and eschew ethnic self-criticism -- it would have been unthinkable. Hence the critique of the "patriarchy" was displaced to gentile society.

In any case, feminism has led to the 'economization' of womanhood -- that is, to the subjugation of the feminine to impersonal economic forces. This has resulted in a marked decline of mothering and parenting skills and commitments in gentile society, as well as a spiritual loss of womanhood as a potential reservoir of moral influence. American society is no less "male- dominated" than it was in 1950. If anything it is more so, even though many women have achieved high incomes and professional standing. Had those tendencies been allowed to develop naturally, which in the pre-radical feminist age they showed every sign of doing, women might have been less inclined to reject the inner dignity and reticence which so often inspired the moral power of their female forebears.
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« Reply #115 on: February 16, 2006, 02:48:07 PM »

  "Lenin also had Jewish ancestry" Did he identify himself as a Jew?  as a Russian? Why does his ancestry matter compared to his own deeds?  Is this somehow to show that there is a genetic basis for something?
I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations, regardless of their religous beliefs.

What are the objections to "Jews" that have been seen in some threads and on other sites?  Is it because they are not Christian?  Is it a matter of religious belief? 
Well I wouldnt say it is just because they are not Christian.  I dont have a problem with people just because they do not share the same faith as me.  It is a case of them having a track record of actively undermining Christianity, and other gentiles for that matter.  I have a problem with anyone that looks after their own interests to the detriment of others.

The religious Jews that I know say that if a Jew converts to Christianity then they aren't a Jew any more but a Christian. So some see it as religous.  But Edith Stein, who had converted to RC and was a nun was hauled off to the camps by the Nazis.  They saw it as inate or genetic, I guess.
Although a Jewish convert would obviously still ethnically be a Jew, they have effectively permanently cut off their ties to the Jewish community and assimilated with the host community.


Bogo's earlier post about Jews working for things to eliminate "anti-Jewish" views or deeds or social structures had me think: "What's wrong with that?" 
Well obviously there can be no objection to people wanting to better their common plight.  As I have already said though, this right ends the moment you encroach on others rights.  I hardly think that it is just that dozens of millions of Russians were killed as a result of this revolution, just so that a minority group could advance its own agenda.

  There are the records of centuries of ill-treatment and cruelty addressed to Jews in Europe; why *wouldn't* some who had gotten some education and a chance to improve matters want to eliminate evil addressed to their group?
I think its a very strange notion that the Jews or other communists for that matter, were trying to address evil.  Not only did they create infinitely more then there was to start with, but as I have shown, they never had any intention of addressing it.  What can be more evil than the following quote that I have already given?

"We will make our hearts cruel, hard and immovable, so that no mercy
will enter them, and so that they will not quiver at the sight of a
sea of enemy blood. We will let loose the floodgates of that sea.
Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of
hundreds. Let them be thousands; let them drown themselves in their
own blood! For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky, Zinoviev and
Volodarsky, let there be floods of blood of the bourgeois -- more
blood! As much as possible!"

Why would there be more concern about a Jewish "Conspiracy" as opposed to a Tatar Conspiracy, or a Georgian Conspiracy or a Lithuanian one (thinking of other nationalities/ethnicities involved in the Russian Revolution)?
Well fundamentally if we are starting from scratch, there is no more concern about a Jewish conspiracy than a Tatar one.  The only thing that must influence our concern is the evidence.  I only have more concern about a Jewish conspiracy because I believe there is more evidence to support that claim.
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« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2006, 02:52:33 PM »

Put another way, if you slap people around, why are you suprised when they take advantage of a chance to take you out of power?
Well by the same token, why are you surprised when I object to my Orthodox Russian brothers being slapped around for more than half a century.  All I do is object, these people commited immeasurable evil to further their goals.
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« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2006, 03:33:51 PM »

Here's one man's opinion.

Thank you for the passage from Mr. MacDonald. I will look it over. ¦nbsp;But my questions are not what other people or scholars mean when they write of a "Jew" but what do *You* and other poster here mean in their own words.

Also, some of his ideas about the Jewish People are perhaps not only seen (if they are at all) with that group. ¦nbsp;It is not all that uncommon for a homogenous group to see things in others that they do not see in themselves, like seeing another's sins but not our own writ large. ¦nbsp;Japanese culture generally sees itself as homogenous and reading the history of how it dealt with other cultures can be very interesting. Then there's seeing the bad deeds of another's Church and not any that one's own may have done. ¦nbsp;This passage from your quote:

"Their intellectual advocacy was couched in a language of moral universalism that disguised moral particularism -- i.e., a way to serve particular interests of Jews. Thus the study of such movements becomes inevitably involved with issues of deception or self-deception."

Might very well apply to all many of Human groups and organizations. ¦nbsp;Have you read "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer? ¦nbsp;It has some good ideas about being part of a group and what that can do to a person.

Quote
Kevin MacDonald picks up the note, but plays a less complimentary tune. Where Paul Johnson sees anti-Semitism as the perverse habit of Christianity, MacDonald sees it as arising primarily from conflicts of interest and loyalty. He points to the inevitable double standard of Jewish rationalism, when it condemned racial bias in gentile society while overlooking its own.

I would suggest that "conflicts of interest and loyalty" are hardly limited to Christians vs. Jews. Such a prejudice and ill-treatment of others may be seen in the case of the "Burakumin" and "Koreans" in Japan. ¦nbsp;They are classes of people who have native born but are treated differently. ¦nbsp; And double standards are not limited to this area either. ¦nbsp;

Quote
In Weimar Germany anti-Semitism was fueled by the perception that Jews attempted to undermine gentile social cohesion while remaining highly committed to a cohesive group themselves.

What examples of this undermining are there? What "cohesion" was there and what was it based on? I wonder if the Civil Rights Movement in the US might have been said by someone to have tried to undermine American Culture in the 40's-60's?

Quote
A "culture of critique" analysis needs to be done of feminism, that daughter of Marxism

And now I will ask "What do You mean when you write "Feminism"? ¦nbsp;The roots of that movement are much earlier then Marx, it did not spring full grown in the 1960's.

Quote
I don't know if anyone has ever done a study of the proportion of Jewish women in the feminist movement, especially its leaders.

Starting from when? ¦nbsp;Margaret Brent in 1647 Maryland could be counted an early 'feminist' and was English Catholic. ¦nbsp;Mary Wollstonecraft was English and not of any Jewish ancestry. ¦nbsp;Lucy Stone, Susan B. Anthony, Amelia Bloomer and the 19th Century American "feminists" weren't Jewish. ¦nbsp;Jeannette Rankin, 1st woman in the US Congress (from Montana) was not Jewish. ¦nbsp;One could start looking at more and more with the Suffragists in England and the Women's Peace Movement in the US and etc etc, but what is your point in this question?

Quote
... with the strong tendency of Jews to close ranks and eschew ethnic self-criticism -- it would have been unthinkable.

And have any here self-criticized our own 'eth' today? ¦nbsp;I submit that this is a Human trait not a uniquely "Jewish" one. ¦nbsp;Also, I've seen plenty of sniping and arguing amongst Jews and Gentiles and RCs and any other group. ¦nbsp;People tend to get in disagreements.

Quote
In any case, feminism has led to the 'economization' of womanhood -- that is, to the subjugation of the feminine to impersonal economic forces.

"Led to"?? ¦nbsp;Women didn't work before the mid-20th Century? ¦nbsp;The mill-girls in 19th Century England and American were 'subjugated' to economic forces. ¦nbsp;Farm wives and ranchwomen in the West did and do the work at hand to survive and support the family and would probably not fit someones idea of "feminine behaviour" ¦nbsp;The Japanese Peasent women who had to labour to plant the rice so that it all went to the Daimyo for taxes would seem to be subjugated to an impersonal economic force. There are millenia of female labourers and servants and more all over this planet who had to work along with males (who were equally subjugated) to survive.

Have you ever read "Vindication of the Rights of Women" by Mary Wollstonecraft? ¦nbsp;Some of the arguments she was answering in 1792 are still being put forth today.

Quote
This has resulted in a marked decline of mothering and parenting skills and commitments in gentile society, as well as a spiritual loss of womanhood as a potential reservoir of moral influence.

Could you please give some examples to illustrate this assertion?

Quote
American society is no less "male- dominated" than it was in 1950. If anything it is more so, even though many women have achieved high incomes and professional standing. Had those tendencies been allowed to develop naturally, which in the pre-radical feminist age they showed every sign of doing, women might have been less inclined to reject the inner dignity and reticence which so often inspired the moral power of their female forebears.

Develop "Naturally"? ¦nbsp;What does that mean? How is the last 200 years not "natural"? ¦nbsp; ¦nbsp;One of the aims of the early women's movement was to be treated with the dignity due a Human Being rather then as children or incompetants. ¦nbsp;What inner dignity is there in being patronized or abused? ¦nbsp;As to reticence, was that of the "female forebears" because they did not speak out or because they *could* not?

But now we have gone off on a tangent....

Ebor
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« Reply #118 on: February 16, 2006, 04:18:51 PM »

Ebor,
Excellent reply- thank you. The points you brought up do need to be applied to the picture Prof. MacDonald has tried to paint. So...as for my opinion. I do believe that "Jewishness" is a combination of both the religious and ethnic. Where the religious aspect comes from is easy enough to see. The ethnic should be just as easy to see, especially in a place like Israel where Jewishness is defined by ethnic terms. As I've brought up here before- is there an religious examination a Jew must take before coming to settle in Israel? Israel is an ethnically based state. I've also brought up the point here that many leading Zionists celebrated the fall of the Weimar Republic and the rise to power of the National Socialists because of the National Socialist emphasis on race. Finally Jews would not be tempted by assimilation in German/European culture. Even the Nuremburg Laws were praised by Zionists who stood behind an end to mixed marriages with the goyum. So, it does seem that Jews identify themselves in ethnic terms.
I think the problem with ethnic Jews arises from their diaspora mentality. Unlike the Koreans you mention, Jews are 1.)scattered throughout the world, 2.)Historically have not wanted to assimilate, 3.)Are surrounded by cultures which, probably due to this lack of assimilation and clash of culture, have become hostile to them.  As Prof. MacDonald points out, it only seems natural that thousands of years of this lack of assimilation coupled with a "chosen people" mentality and a culture which is quite different from the prevailing culture which surrounds them, will lead to an evolutionary strategy to make their surroundings safer and more beneficial to them. It's interesting to see that powerful Jewish lobbying groups have pushed for non-European immigration to America and forced diversity while at the very same time keeping their insular and ethnically based world-view. The rest of our "white" or "Christian" culture is apparently supposed to stand behind the diversity and tolerance initiatives of people like Foxman of the ADL while Jews are told to do just the opposite in practice, and therefore not sullying the pure race of the "chosen".  It only makes sense that Jews should be behind such initiatives seeing that an ethnically or religiously homogonous culture has historically been the deadliest thing for them. If the culture which surrounds them cannot find an ethnic or religious common bond Jews will not be ganged up on. So, we get things like Marx's crazy ideas of "equality", immigration policy in the US which creates ethnic enclaves which do not share anything close to a common European derived world-view(of course this world view does vary amongst Europeans), or the Boasian school of anthropology which discards the notion any biological agents(i.e. what creates ethnicity) which shape the qualities of a human...etc. etc.
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« Reply #119 on: February 16, 2006, 04:43:20 PM »

I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations, regardless of their religous beliefs.
Racist nonsense. Any ethnic group does this. Serbs for example, Mr.Serbian Patriot.

IIt is a case of them having a track record of actively undermining Christianity, and other gentiles for that matter. 
Yeah, like that time they slaughtered six million Christians in the gas chambers in the 40's........

Although a Jewish convert would obviously still ethnically be a Jew, they have effectively permanently cut off their ties to the Jewish community and assimilated with the host community.
Shouldn't you cut off your ties with your ethnic community also and assimilate into the melting pot of your host community Mr. Serbian Patriot? The reasons you object to Jewish ethnicity also exist in Serbian ethnicity.

Well obviously there can be no objection to people wanting to better their common plight.  As I have already said though, this right ends the moment you encroach on others rights. 
What about the right not to be slandered or defamed?

The only thing that must influence our concern is the evidence.  I only have more concern about a Jewish conspiracy because I believe there is more evidence to support that claim.
"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"- the hoax of hatred which has caused the torture and death of millions of Jews (Hitler used it as well as the Tsars, and it was propagated by the Muslim Arabs in the 1980's, and continues to be published and used throughout the world), slanders an entire ethnicity and inspires enough hatred for people to kill them. Stop and think about this for a minute: The Protocols are actually a gentile plot which brings them together to eliminate Judaism. So, my friend, there is more hard evidence for a gentile conspiracy of genocide than your dubious circumstantial evidence for a "Jewish conspiracy".
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« Reply #120 on: February 16, 2006, 05:28:39 PM »

Racist nonsense. Any ethnic group does this. Serbs for example, Mr.Serbian Patriot.
I was slightly surprised that you didnt wheel out the 'R' word earlier to be truthful.  Full credit to you for restraining yourself for so long. Grin Let me examine what you find racist :
I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations, regardless of their religous beliefs.

To be honest I dont even need to examine what I have written.  You contradict yourself.  You claim that what I say is racist nonsense, but then you claim every ethnic group does this.  You are therefore in agreement with me, but for some curious reason find it unpallatable to admit it when it comes to one ethnic group in particular.

Shouldn't you cut off your ties with your ethnic community also and assimilate into the melting pot of your host community Mr. Serbian Patriot? The reasons you object to Jewish ethnicity also exist in Serbian ethnicity.
Show me where I said that Jews should assimilate with their host community?
Show me where I objected to Jewish ethnicity, whatever objecting to someones ethnicity may mean. Huh

"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"- the hoax of hatred which has caused the torture and death of millions of Jews (Hitler used it as well as the Tsars, and it was propagated by the Muslim Arabs in the 1980's, and continues to be published and used throughout the world), slanders an entire ethnicity and inspires enough hatred for people to kill them. Stop and think about this for a minute: The Protocols are actually a gentile plot which brings them together to eliminate Judaism. So, my friend, there is more hard evidence for a gentile conspiracy of genocide than your dubious circumstantial evidence for a "Jewish conspiracy".
I have seen no evidence that the protocols are authentic, hence I have not referred to them, I dont know why you bring them up.  Lets stick to the facts that are undeniable.
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« Reply #121 on: February 16, 2006, 06:43:29 PM »

Heres a few more interesting quotes guys:

"Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the first Soviet commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish position in the Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White Armies which opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as common enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).

"The Bolshevik revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction and by Jewish planning, shall also, through the same Jewish mental an physical forces, become a reality all over the world." (The American Hebrew, September 10, 1920)

"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the Kremlin, p. 81)

"We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred.... We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)

'During the heyday of the Cold War, American Jewish publicists spent a lot of time denying that-as 1930s anti-Semites claimed-Jews played a disproportionately important role in Soviet and world Communism. The truth is until the early 1950s. Jews did play such a role, and there is nothing to be ashamed of. In time, Jews will learn to take pride in the record of the Jewish Communists in the Soviet Union and elsewhere. It was a species of striking back." -- The Jewish Experience, "Stalin's Jews", pp. 364, Norman F. Cantor, Castle Books, 1996. (Dr. Cantor is the author of several books on Jewish history and a professor of history at New York University.)

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« Reply #122 on: February 17, 2006, 12:25:35 AM »

"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the Kremlin, p. 81)

This quote is sprinkled all over the world of holocaust deniers, but it does not appear to be accurate-- or perhaps its intended meaning is unclear.

I got the following data from someone else, so I am not 100% sure it is accurate. The original source is said to be Pipes, Richard: The Formation of the Soviet Union, Harvard University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-674-30951-0, page 278:

NATIONAL ORIGIN OF COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS, 1922

                        Number          Percent         Per 1,000
                        of party        of              of the
Nationality             members         party           population

Great Russians          270,409         72.00           3.80
Ukrainians               22,078          5.88           0.94
Jews                     19,564          5.20           7.20
Latvians                  9,512          2.53          78.00
Georgians                 7,378          1.96           4.52
Tatars                    6,534          1.72           1.19
Poles                     5,649          1.50          10.80
Belorussians              5,534          1.47           1.67
Kirghiz                   4,964          1.32           0.89
Armenians                 3,828          1.02           2.91
Germans                   2,217          0.59           1.98
Uzbeks                    2,043          0.54           0.76
Estonians                 1,964          0.53          16.30
Ossetins                  1,699          0.45           8.00
Others                   12,528          3.29
                        -------        ------         ------
                        375,901        100.00           2.90 (average)


Obviously this is five years after the revolution, but still.
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« Reply #123 on: February 17, 2006, 12:50:26 AM »

Serbian Patriot

Quote
Well by the same token, why are you surprised when I object to my Orthodox Russian brothers being slapped around for more than half a century.¦nbsp; All I do is object, these people commited immeasurable evil to further their goals.

Well, I had a few points in asking the question. I would agree that turning the other cheek would be a nice thing, if it were possible in such a world as ours. I was not bringing up the point as some type of defense of what happened though, but as sort of a balancing factor to some things I see said about the Jews sometimes. First, it is more likely that it was not some grand conspiracy of Jews, but simply them getting fed up with how they were being treated. I don't say that this excuses either their actions, or the actions of anyone else, I'm simply giving an alternative to the conspiracy theory.

Second, given the Church's replacement theology, and the hostilities between Jews and Christians from the first century onwards, it is easy to read more into 20th century events than is actually there. It is common for people to magnify the importance of events in their own times and places. This has been true from St. Paul, to St. Maximos, to the saints of 20th century Russia, all of whom thought they were seeing the very literal last days (as opposed to "the last days" being a term referring to a period stretching out for millenia). And I don't mean to judge them personally, but factually speaking they were wrong. Yet, because of the writings and "prophecies" of saints which found their way out of Russia, there still lingers these beliefs that connect Jews and Soviet Russia in some eschatological scenario. I guess I asked the question to point out that, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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« Reply #124 on: February 17, 2006, 05:27:11 AM »

This quote is sprinkled all over the world of holocaust deniers, but it does not appear to be accurate-- or perhaps its intended meaning is unclear.

I got the following data from someone else, so I am not 100% sure it is accurate. The original source is said to be Pipes, Richard: The Formation of the Soviet Union, Harvard University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-674-30951-0, page 278:

NATIONAL ORIGIN OF COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS, 1922

                        Number          Percent         Per 1,000
                        of party        of              of the
Nationality             members         party           population

Great Russians          270,409         72.00           3.80
Ukrainians               22,078          5.88           0.94
Jews                     19,564          5.20           7.20
Latvians                  9,512          2.53          78.00
Georgians                 7,378          1.96           4.52
Tatars                    6,534          1.72           1.19
Poles                     5,649          1.50          10.80
Belorussians              5,534          1.47           1.67
Kirghiz                   4,964          1.32           0.89
Armenians                 3,828          1.02           2.91
Germans                   2,217          0.59           1.98
Uzbeks                    2,043          0.54           0.76
Estonians                 1,964          0.53          16.30
Ossetins                  1,699          0.45           8.00
Others                   12,528          3.29
                        -------        ------         ------
                        375,901        100.00           2.90 (average)


Obviously this is five years after the revolution, but still.

I have just one thing to say: "Happy Birthday Keble!"
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« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2006, 06:49:20 AM »

This quote is sprinkled all over the world of holocaust deniers, but it does not appear to be accurate-- or perhaps its intended meaning is unclear.
Agreed, I conceed its intended meaning is unclear, no specific date is given.

I got the following data from someone else, so I am not 100% sure it is accurate. The original source is said to be Pipes, Richard: The Formation of the Soviet Union, Harvard University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-674-30951-0, page 278:

NATIONAL ORIGIN OF COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS, 1922

                        Number          Percent         Per 1,000
                        of party        of              of the
Nationality             members         party           population

Great Russians          270,409         72.00           3.80
Ukrainians               22,078          5.88           0.94
Jews                     19,564          5.20           7.20
Latvians                  9,512          2.53          78.00
Georgians                 7,378          1.96           4.52
Tatars                    6,534          1.72           1.19
Poles                     5,649          1.50          10.80
Belorussians              5,534          1.47           1.67
Kirghiz                   4,964          1.32           0.89
Armenians                 3,828          1.02           2.91
Germans                   2,217          0.59           1.98
Uzbeks                    2,043          0.54           0.76
Estonians                 1,964          0.53          16.30
Ossetins                  1,699          0.45           8.00
Others                   12,528          3.29
                        -------        ------         ------
                        375,901        100.00           2.90 (average)


Obviously this is five years after the revolution, but still.
The famous quote lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind.  This is a list of numbers, I gave a list of names (of communist in leadership positions) so that the nationalites could be confirmed.  Ive trawled the internet for a good 50 minutes and I cant find any similar data, though I am a bit of a computer illiterate. Smiley  Can anyone else find any?
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« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2006, 10:11:00 AM »

Quote
"The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion"- the hoax of hatred which has caused the torture and death of millions of Jews (Hitler used it as well as the Tsars, and it was propagated by the Muslim Arabs in the 1980's, and continues to be published and used throughout the world), slanders an entire ethnicity and inspires enough hatred for people to kill them. Stop and think about this for a minute: The Protocols are actually a gentile plot which brings them together to eliminate Judaism. So, my friend, there is more hard evidence for a gentile conspiracy of genocide than your dubious circumstantial evidence for a "Jewish conspiracy

Actually, this is a silly thought, considering it's the Jews that won't let the Palestinians build their own state down there. The facts are that the Jews have a state right now, returning to their homeland after nearly 1900 years (which is quite a remarkable achievement), which somehow implies Jewish influence in the world. Besides that, the Israeli lobby in the States is a lot more powerful than any other lobby, so a "jewish conspiracy" to get them back to their homeland in the Middle East and build their own "empire" in the lands it used to be seems to be a lot more realistic than a "gentile conspiracy" issue, therefore justifying the jewish influence in the world. After all, there's not a single power in the political map that does not desire a place in the political pantheon...
Let's brush the protocols aside for once, and check if the facts justify the jewish influence that the protocols claim. One can easily see that much of what is described in that forged document are realistic enough to be justified by the facts. Other than that, whether the protocols are true or forged is of little interest.
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« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2006, 08:55:13 PM »

Actually, this is a silly thought, considering it's the Jews that won't let the Palestinians build their own state down there.
Firstly, the Jews are doing much more than the Palestinians towards the goal of two states in Palestine: The Gaza withdrawal, the fact that Israel doesn't even have control over Jerusalem, the fact that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority......it is the Palestinians who believe that Israel has no right to exist, and are prepared to repeatedly blow themselves up and take Israeli lives with them to demonstrate their hatred for Israel. Yeah, co-ordinated terrorist attacks against Israel and the West looks much more rational and less of a conspiracy theory to me than the "obvious" Jewish conspiracy .  Roll Eyes

The facts are that the Jews have a state right now, returning to their homeland after nearly 1900 years (which is quite a remarkable achievement), which somehow implies Jewish influence in the world.
How do you make such leaps in logic? Does the fact that the Greeks have returned to part of their homeland which they took back from the Ottoman Turks after 400 years somehow imply a "Greek influence in the world"? Is there also a "Greek conspiracy"?

Besides that, the Israeli lobby in the States is a lot more powerful than any other lobby,
Prove it.

Let's brush the protocols aside for once, and check if the facts justify the jewish influence that the protocols claim. One can easily see that much of what is described in that forged document are realistic enough to be justified by the facts. Other than that, whether the protocols are true or forged is of little interest.
So, let me check that I'm hearing what you are saying: You are saying that a forged document (which you twice insisted an Orthodox Emperor ordered to be read after every Liturgy and have yet to prove), that is, a document which is a lie, actually tells the truth and is realistic......and this is shown by the "facts". Well, I'm afraid your "facts" have just been disproved in this post, so where does that leave your dinky little theory?
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« Reply #128 on: February 18, 2006, 03:20:45 PM »

Quote
Quote
Quote from: Ntinos on Yesterday at 09:11:00 AM
Besides that, the Israeli lobby in the States is a lot more powerful than any other lobby,

Prove it.

Perhaps I should hand everything to you on a silver plate as well? Is this the army or are you used to being as rude and giving orders all the time?

Well, if you 've got what it takes, PROVE THE OPPOSITE and prove me wrong therefore. But I heavily doubt you're in any position to do anything else other than mocking and irony.  Smiley Smiley

Quote
(which you twice insisted an Orthodox Emperor ordered to be read after every Liturgy and have yet to prove)

Mind you, I'm not interested in proving anything to you. I told you my source, if you want to believe it it's up to you.  Wink

Quote
So, let me check that I'm hearing what you are saying: You are saying that a forged document , that is, a document which is a lie, actually tells the truth and is realistic......and this is shown by the "facts". Well, I'm afraid your "facts" have just been disproved in this post, so where does that leave your dinky little theory?

Your question actually says a lot about what you can understand from someone else's post, which is actually very little. Mind you, I'm speaking about the "Jewish Conspiracy" in the world, which is obvious for anyone not willingly blind and able to discern black from white. I'm speaking about how the Jewish lobbies throughout the world are working all together in order to craft a jewish state in the Middle East.
Also, -mind you- the protocols of the elders of Zion spoke about an awful lot of things that have happened throughout the world - communism, extreme famine in the thirld world, the destruction of the christian faith especially in Russia, the falling away of the intellectual class and a lot lot more which you could of course exclude by pretending - once more- that they never happen/ed. In other words, what I'm saying is that the author of the protocols - whoever that may be - was doing his best to depict the picture of his past, his present and his future, and was most accurate in doing so. Accept this or not, this is what I believe.

Quote
Does the fact that the Greeks have returned to part of their homeland which they took back from the Ottoman Turks after 400 years somehow imply a "Greek influence in the world"? Is there also a "Greek conspiracy"?

We, -the Greeks-, never left the part of our homeland. We where always there, throughout those 400 years of the Turkish rule. We were almost in every case the vast majority, especially in southern Greece - the parts that formed the first Greek Kingdom. What we did is send out a diaspora in the 1700's in order to get political influence in southern Russia and western Europe. This diaspora formed the "Φιλική Εταιρία" an organisation that followed the structure of a terrorist group, which was responsible for the inciting of the rebellion and later the revolution in Romania and Greece during the troubled years of the revolution. The "Φιλική Εταιρία" body was responsible for the shaping of the world's opinion, which resulted in the creation of special non-greek supporters of the greek revolution, the philellines, and the forging of strong relations with strong government bodies in other countries (mainly in Russia, where tons of greek labourers were doing work and a lot of Greeks, like John Kapodistria in diplomacy, and Ipsilantis in military, ranked high in the society).
That, is for the history part of the "Greek influence in the world", which resulted through the Φιλική Εταιρία in the forming of the Greek Kingdom. But I guess all it needs is to be interested enough to know the basics of greek history and diplomacy, heh dear diaspora brother?  Smiley Smiley

Quote
How do you make such leaps in logic?

Considering you're comparing the Jewish return of... 1900 years in a land where they weren't even a majority with the Greek revolution (which was not even a "return"...), you'd best keep your mouth shut from time to time when it comes to being mean.  Smiley Smiley  Shocked Shocked

Quote
Firstly, the Jews are doing much more than the Palestinians towards the goal of two states in Palestine: The Gaza withdrawal, the fact that Israel doesn't even have control over Jerusalem, the fact that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority......it is the Palestinians who believe that Israel has no right to exist, and are prepared to repeatedly blow themselves up and take Israeli lives with them to demonstrate their hatred for Israel. Yeah, co-ordinated terrorist attacks against Israel and the West looks much more rational and less of a conspiracy theory to me than the "obvious" Jewish conspiracy .  Roll Eyes

If your..."rationalism" is inspiring by "goodwill" acts then it should best be called with it's original name, which is no different than "propaganda". Go tell my palestinian friends that live in Greece right now how the "Israeli goodwill" is working for them.
Also, -mind you- the only thing that is obvious is that you in fact accuse the Palestinians of dealing "terrorist" attacks when at the same time their homes are ravaged, and they have been tricked by the UN about the establishment of a Palestinian state, and IT IS THEIR ONLY WAY OF DEFENDING THEMSELVES.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Seems like the Jewish propaganda is working perfectly on you, the... anti-terrorist Australian sitting on his throne couch, enjoying his pop-corn and watching TV.  Grin Grin  Tongue Tongue
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 03:28:35 PM by Ntinos » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2006, 05:34:46 PM »

Firstly, the Jews are doing much more than the Palestinians towards the goal of two states in Palestine:
For around half a century the Palestinians have been confined to what can only be described as a slum.  The Gaza strip is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, and is sustained only by foreign aid, for it has no viable means to prop up its economy without outside help. 

The Gaza withdrawal,
A calculated and meaningless propaganda move.  Big deal, instead of occupying the slum, theyve surrounded it.

the fact that Israel doesn't even have control over Jerusalem,
I think you'll find that it is the capital of the state of Israel.


the fact that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority......it is the Palestinians who believe that Israel has no right to exist,
Yet another inaccurate comparison of yours.  Lets compare like with like.  If your going to say that Israel recognises the Palestinian authority, then the logical comparison would be to see whether the Palestinian authority recognises Israel.  It does. 


and are prepared to repeatedly blow themselves up and take Israeli lives with them to demonstrate their hatred for Israel.
Both sides kill each other.  If the Palestinians had American attack helicopters, tanks and jets Im sure they wouldnt be blowing themselves up.  Im also sure that if they hadnt of offered resistance, Israel would be unlikely to give them their own state which they still do not have after 50 years, despite your opinion that Israel is trying hard to give it to them.


Yeah, co-ordinated terrorist attacks against Israel and the West looks much more rational and less of a conspiracy theory to me than the "obvious" Jewish conspiracy .  Roll Eyes
Of course Muslims have their own agenda, and its certainly more obvious than the Jewish one.  I suppose thats the cue for you to whip out the old 'R' word, Ive gone and committed the crime of claiming that its possible for racial or religious groups to have a common agenda which may not be benevolent towards others.

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« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2006, 09:01:36 PM »

I've seen the light. You guys are absolutely correct. There is a Jewish Conspiracy. The Jews control the media. The Jews control Jerusalem (unfortunately all the political action takes place in Tel Aviv, and all the foreign embassies are located there, and the Muslims own the Temple Mount, but that's besides the point). Thank you for enlightening me, both of you. To think I was once blind, but now I see.....
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found,
Was blind but now I see...."

I have asked you numerous questions, you have responded by repeatedly ignoring them. 
That's probably because I considered them unworthy of a priori examination. But now that I've seen the light, there is surely no need to answer them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 09:14:49 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2006, 11:47:37 PM »

WHOA, this is going exactly the way I didn't want it to go.  The poster who I originally refered to has posted more of this stuff.  Now I guess Jews abused Iraqi prisoners in Abu Gharaib.  Whatever.  I'm not going to worry about one nut posting on an Orthodox forum.  God knows, there's no shortage of that
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« Reply #132 on: February 19, 2006, 01:11:48 AM »

Suzannes,

The next thread that goes 9 pages without getting off topic will be the first Wink
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« Reply #133 on: February 19, 2006, 04:24:30 AM »

I've seen the light. You guys are absolutely correct. There is a Jewish Conspiracy. The Jews control the media. The Jews control Jerusalem (unfortunately all the political action takes place in Tel Aviv, and all the foreign embassies are located there, and the Muslims own the Temple Mount, but that's besides the point). Thank you for enlightening me, both of you. To think I was once blind, but now I see.....
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found,
Was blind but now I see...."
You are deliberately trying to sidetrack this thread offering nothing but mocking and sarcasm.  I think this it is obvious to anyone viewing this thread who is trying to lead a logical discussion, and who is not.

That's probably because I considered them unworthy of a priori examination. But now that I've seen the light, there is surely no need to answer them.
If I am worthy to accuse of something, then surely when I ask you to clarify/ammend what you have said, you should respond.  For example you have yet to clarify that nonsensical remark you made where you claimed that what I said about Jews was racist, but that every ethnic group acted like that anyway.  If you are to make bizarre statements then back them up, dont just move on to sarcastic rants, and ignore the issue.
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« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2006, 04:40:43 AM »

God knows, there's no shortage of that
Ain't that the truth.
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« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2006, 05:42:07 AM »

Εξ άλλου η κατρακύλα που δεν σταματά με τίποτε, είναι σημάδι ότι του ετοιμάζεται ο δρόμος για να συγχυσθή η διάνοια των ανθρώπων, να μην ξεχωρίζουν το καλό από το κακό. ’Ενα κλίμα που ταιριάζει για να γεννηθεί ο άνθρωπος αυτός της απώλειας. ÃŽÅ“’ αυτό σημαίνει ότι δεν πρέπει να φεύγουμε μακρυά από την Εκκλησία, ούτε να μας παρασύρη ο κόσμος τηςε αμαρτίας, ούτως ώστε αν ο Αντίχρισδτος έλθη στην εποχή μας, να βγούμε κερδισμένοι, γιατί όποιοι τον αντιληφθούν και δεν θα έχουν πλανηθή όπως οι πολλοί, ασυτοί θα’ ναι οι μεγαλύτεροι άγιοι που έγιναν ποτέ. Ο Θεός να μας αξιώση, να ακούμε και να ακολουθούμε τις συμβουλές της επίσημης Εκκλησίας, γιατί αυτή είναι ο στύλος και το εδραίωμα της αληθείας, καθώς γράφει ο Απόστολος ÃŽ ÃƒÆ’ŽÂ±ÃÂÃŽÂ»ÃŽÂ¿Ãâ€š”.
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« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2006, 08:09:33 AM »

Here's what Ntinos said, curtousy of babelfish.altavista.com - translation from Greek to English (I don't have time before Liturgy to actually translate this myself):

 "From other you topple over that does not stop with nothing, is mark that for him is prepared the street in order to συγχυσθή the intellect of persons, they do not distinguish good from the villain. ' A climate that suits in order to is given birth ' this person of loss. With this it means that it should not we leave makrya' from the Church, neither us παρασύρη the world of τηςε sin, so that if Antichrist comes in our season, we come out gained, because that him conceive and will not have it was misleaded as the many, they will be the bigger Saints that became never. The God our claim, we hear and we follow the advices of official Church, because this is the pillar and εδραίωμα the truth, as writes the Apostle Paul"
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« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2006, 07:36:30 PM »

The famous quote lies, damn lies and statistics springs to mind.  This is a list of numbers, I gave a list of names (of communist in leadership positions) so that the nationalites could be confirmed.  Ive trawled the internet for a good 50 minutes and I cant find any similar data, though I am a bit of a computer illiterate. Smiley  Can anyone else find any?

Well, with all the Holocaust deniers out there gumming up the works with their lies and misrepresentations, it's a lot of work to find good data. And a list of names of unknown provenance isn't really any better than statistics which at least appear to come from a legitimate historian.

It's tempting to seize upon the communists as a conspiracy because that is indisputable. It's that word "Jewish" that is the problem. It represents the failure to take our own sinfulness seriously, as though Russians and Ukrainians and Georgians (and while we're at it, representatives of every nation in Europe) weren't really capable of such evil. No, for that it would take a Jew.
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« Reply #138 on: February 20, 2006, 09:22:18 AM »

Well, with all the Holocaust deniers out there gumming up the works with their lies and misrepresentations, it's a lot of work to find good data.
Thats the second time you've mentioned the holocaust when replying to me.  Im not clear why, since I havent raised the issue, and I have certainly not denied it.  If and when I come up with evidence either way I will post it.  Certainly though it is a ridiculous assertion to claim that you cannot find good data because of holocaust deniers somehow 'gumming up the works'.  Surely this is an admission that mainstream historians do not even like to discuss the issue at hand.  If they were willing to objectively examine it, you would have an abundance of information to call upon.

And a list of names of unknown provenance isn't really any better than statistics which at least appear to come from a legitimate historian.
The names can be cross-checked relatively easily by looking through the relevant archives, since they were of course prominent leaders in the revolution.  You would be pushed however to launch an examination into the ethnic origins of hundreds of thousands of communist party members!


It's tempting to seize upon the communists as a conspiracy because that is indisputable. It's that word "Jewish" that is the problem.
It can only be a problem in so much as there is no truth in the assertion. 

It represents the failure to take our own sinfulness seriously,
I reject this idea, I am quite distressed that people can believe this.  Everyone is sinful, but this should not be used as some kind of shield to prevent people being held accountable for their actions.  You have a right to dismiss any injustices against yourself personally, but you do not have the right to dismiss injustices committed against others.  You cannot forget that bloody episode in history and play the moral superiority card.  Millions died, you have no right claim on their behalf that the matter is not worth investigating because we are sinful.  Failure to stand up for the truth against evil, is to side with evil.  Do not kid yourself that it is noble.  There is nothing to fear from the truth.

as though Russians and Ukrainians and Georgians (and while we're at it, representatives of every nation in Europe) weren't really capable of such evil. No, for that it would take a Jew.
You are muddying the waters here, we are not discussing hypothetical matters.  Any person or nation is capable of evil, however we are discussing who actually committed a particular evil.
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« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2006, 11:18:35 AM »

Thats the second time you've mentioned the holocaust when replying to me.  Im not clear why, since I havent raised the issue, and I have certainly not denied it.

It seems to me that you are more concerned now with the possiblity of guilt by association than what I actually said-- which was that the sheer number of such sites makes it difficult to find material that doesn't come from such a site.

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If and when I come up with evidence either way I will post it.  Certainly though it is a ridiculous assertion to claim that you cannot find good data because of holocaust deniers somehow 'gumming up the works'.  Surely this is an admission that mainstream historians do not even like to discuss the issue at hand.

Nothing of the kind. I simply do not have the time to go on a library fishing expedition, so I'm having to make do with what I can find on the net. And as usual, the principle of "bullhorns for everyone" is expressed in the multiplicity of sites by obsessive idiots who repeat all of each other's falsehoods and misrepresentations. Sites which attempt to debunk them are simply much fewer in number, because not nearly as many people are obsessed with debunking.

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It represents the failure to take our own sinfulness seriously,
I reject this idea, I am quite distressed that people can believe this.  Everyone is sinful, but this should not be used as some kind of shield to prevent people being held accountable for their actions.  You have a right to dismiss any injustices against yourself personally, but you do not have the right to dismiss injustices committed against others.  You cannot forget that bloody episode in history and play the moral superiority card.  Millions died, you have no right claim on their behalf that the matter is not worth investigating because we are sinful.
But the matter is not worth investigating, because most of "them" weren't sinful in this matter either.

Because the "them" here, of course, are Jews as a group. And Jews as a group didn't do this. A group of people, of whom perhaps a majority were Jews, did this, and by your reasoning here, their guilt is theirs alone, and doesn't devolve upon Jews in general.

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Failure to stand up for the truth against evil, is to side with evil.

And if so, you are patting yourself on the back for your noble stance.

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You are muddying the waters here, we are not discussing hypothetical matters.  Any person or nation is capable of evil, however we are discussing who actually committed a particular evil.

No, we aren't. The list of names is there, and having listed them, the evildoers are listed. It is your continuing effort to implicate the Jewish people as a whole that is the problem here.
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« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2006, 03:03:17 PM »

It seems to me that you are more concerned now with the possiblity of guilt by association than what I actually said-- which was that the sheer number of such sites makes it difficult to find material that doesn't come from such a site.
Surely if what you say is fact then mainstream history resources would have material on the matter.  You cannot claim that the internet is so clogged up with conspiracy sites that you cannot find any mainstream history on it.

Sites which attempt to debunk them are simply much fewer in number, because not nearly as many people are obsessed with debunking.
I am the one who is attempting to debunk the prevalent view, not you.  Surely I should be finding it harder than you to come accross relevant info.


I But the matter is not worth investigating, because most of "them" weren't sinful in this matter either.

Because the "them" here, of course, are Jews as a group. And Jews as a group didn't do this. A group of people, of whom perhaps a majority were Jews, did this, and by your reasoning here, their guilt is theirs alone, and doesn't devolve upon Jews in general.
You are right to an extent, the responsibility can only lie with those that committed the crime.  However the fact that the majority were Jews is not an irrelevant accident, it must have some significance.  When I say that the Ottomans are responsible for centuries of occupation and repression, everyone knows I am not saying every last inhabitant of the Ottoman empire was implicated in this injustice.  In this secular world people find the idea of group loyalty, group responsibility a difficult one to fathom.  People see things from an individualistic point of view.  Unfortunately looking at things in this way will prevent you from seeing the bigger picture.

No, we aren't. The list of names is there, and having listed them, the evildoers are listed. It is your continuing effort to implicate the Jewish people as a whole that is the problem here.

By your own admission the revolution was overwhelmingly carried out by Jews.  If the Muslims were to carry out a coup of some sort in France, then it would be a Muslim revolution, despite the fact that 90% of Muslims inside France had no part in it, and that 100% of Muslims outside of France had no part in it.
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« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2006, 10:47:56 PM »

Surely if what you say is fact then mainstream history resources would have material on the matter.  You cannot claim that the internet is so clogged up with conspiracy sites that you cannot find any mainstream history on it.

Of course I can, and I do. And actually, I did give you material from a mainstream source (second hand, to be sure, but hey). You more or less dismissed it out of hand.

Time has shown that the net is a great place to store primary documents and the like. On conspiracy theories it is basically pretty poor. There are a lot of people out there trying to get out "The Truth", and the forces of the orthodox standard viewpoint are generally not so excitable, and often enough refuse to condescend to reply.

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You are right to an extent, the responsibility can only lie with those that committed the crime.

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However the fact that the majority were Jews is not an irrelevant accident, it must have some significance.

Even leaving off that I don't believe the thesis, it need not have any significance.

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When I say that the Ottomans are responsible for centuries of occupation and repression, everyone knows I am not saying every last inhabitant of the Ottoman empire was implicated in this injustice.

Well, uh, the point is that "the Ottomans" means specifically "the political powers of that empire". Are "The Jews" a political organization? I don't think so.

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In this secular world people find the idea of group loyalty, group responsibility a difficult one to fathom.

I don't find it difficult, when the gruop acts as a group. But Jews do not act as a group, so it's really quite improper to lay responsibility upon the corporately.

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By your own admission the revolution was overwhelmingly carried out by Jews.

I don't admit it, and continue to deny it. But be that as it may....

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If the Muslims were to carry out a coup of some sort in France, then it would be a Muslim revolution, despite the fact that 90% of Muslims inside France had no part in it, and that 100% of Muslims outside of France had no part in it.

Ah, but let's take Al Qaida, which indeed is in some sense a Muslim conspiracy. But it is so precisely as an expression of Islamic sectarianism. It has a specifically religious meaning. The Russian revolution, by constrast, was specifically anti-Jewish in precisely that sense. Judaism was to pass away exactly as Christianity was to pass away. If there's a religion at the center of that revolution, it is Marxism, not Judaism.
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« Reply #142 on: February 21, 2006, 07:26:42 AM »

Speaking of holocaust denial...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4734648.stm


If the veracity of claims about the nature of heaven, of God and the creation of all living creatures can be challenged and debated then surely any historical event in recent memory or in the dim and distant past should be open to mature discussion.
No other episode in history has such legal protection and it behoves the Jewish community in each and every European nation where such a bizarre law exists to help bring about the end of this singularity.
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« Reply #143 on: February 21, 2006, 09:13:51 AM »

Speaking of holocaust denial...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4734648.stm


If the veracity of claims about the nature of heaven, of God and the creation of all living creatures can be challenged and debated then surely any historical event in recent memory or in the dim and distant past should be open to mature discussion.
No other episode in history has such legal protection and it behoves the Jewish community in each and every European nation where such a bizarre law exists to help bring about the end of this singularity.

While I disagree with the holocaust deniers, for better or worse it did seem to occur, I do believe that their right to believe and vocalize their opinion about the holocaust, or any historical or political event, is fundamental to the very concept of a free society. I said it before and I'll say it again, governments that maintain and enforce laws against political speech, no matter how distasteful, are in the same category as the Nazi German and Soviet Russian governments...the execution of their citizens is simply a corollary to their opposistion to the freedom of thought, which is their true sin.
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« Reply #144 on: February 21, 2006, 04:59:31 PM »

I do believe that their right to believe and vocalize their opinion about the holocaust, or any historical or political event, is fundamental to the very concept of a free society.
I agree. And this forum is not the Church, it is the world. So while in the Church, our "freedom" to say certain things and rewrite history is restricted, this is not the case in the world. Such "freedom of speech" does not exist in the Church- we are not free to blaspheme, we are not free to offend or scandalize others, we are not free to deny reality. But since this forum is not the Church, I've realised that the trick here is to just let things wash over. When people say things which are ridiculously over-simplified, prejudiced, bigotted and downright wrong, just let your mind wander. I do so now; I think about recipes for Lent. Nothing I say is going to change someone who has been brought up to hate a group simply because they are different, it's too ingrained and has become part of their being. Hate is a learned behaviour which will not be unlearned through discussion over the internet.
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« Reply #145 on: February 22, 2006, 08:29:53 AM »

I agree. And this forum is not the Church, it is the world. So while in the Church, our "freedom" to say certain things and rewrite history is restricted, this is not the case in the world.
You are trying to twist things.  The church does not restrict our freedom to rewrite history, unless of course one is lying.


Such "freedom of speech" does not exist in the Church- we are not free to blaspheme, we are not free to offend or scandalize others, we are not free to deny reality.
That is exactly what we are debating, the reality.  Examining a historical event is not a sin.

But since this forum is not the Church, I've realised that the trick here is to just let things wash over.
In other words ignore them when they expose you! Roll Eyes

When people say things which are ridiculously over-simplified, prejudiced, bigotted and downright wrong, just let your mind wander.
I try and expose them, each to their own I guess.

Nothing I say is going to change someone who has been brought up to hate a group simply because they are different, it's too ingrained and has become part of their being. Hate is a learned behaviour which will not be unlearned through discussion over the internet.
And you talk about oversimplification!  You have summed up the entire debate in one word: hate.  I have shown absolutely no hate towards anyone, and I challenge you to show me where I have.  No doubt this will go unanswered, if your past responses are anything to go by.
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« Reply #146 on: February 22, 2006, 03:14:50 PM »

I dont know if there is a genetic basis for their behaviour, but Im convinced that the fact that they are an ethnic group gave them a sense of togertheness, common goals and aspirations

And will you say the same thing about other ethnic groups like say, Serbs or Scots or Japanese or Maori etc etc?  And what of those goals and aspirations that are simply common to Human Beings: being able to live in peace with enough to eat and shelter, things like that?

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Well I wouldnt say it is just because they are not Christian.ÂÂ  I dont have a problem with people just because they do not share the same faith as me.ÂÂ  It is a case of them having a track record of actively undermining Christianity, and other gentiles for that matter.ÂÂ  I have a problem with anyone that looks after their own interests to the detriment of others.

As Christians had centuries of "actively undermining" Judaism?  And *Anyone* that looks after their own interest?  Do you look after your own interests?  What is the "Detriment"?  Just taking a parking place from someone else might be thinking of oneself to the detriment of others.

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Well obviously there can be no objection to people wanting to better their common plight.ÂÂ  As I have already said though, this right ends the moment you encroach on others rights.ÂÂ  

And who defines when someone else's rights are encroached on?  You seem to be expecting better behaviour from a group that has been abused and kept down then from those who have been in power.  How would the people who want to 'better their common plight' learn such altruism if they have not been show it by those in authority?  What if the slightest attempt by a minority to improve matters is looked upon by those in power as 'encroaching' on *their* rights by its mere existance? Women were told that their attempt to get the vote was wrong because they were trying to get same rights as men, they were encroaching where they did not belong.  By this idea,  Rosa Parks wasn't thinking of the "rights" of the white man who demanded she give up her seat on the bus.   Was the man thinking of *her* rights or did she not have any because she was an African-American woman and he wanted to sit down?  Who gets to decide?  If those who have been mistreating others, why would they allow any rights or betterment to the oppressed?

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I think its a very strange notion that the Jews or other communists for that matter, were trying to address evil.ÂÂ

Then you cannot concieve that the people in the Communist movement or the Jews who had suffered under the Tsars or the poor who supported the revolution *saw* the Russian system and government of the Tsar as evil.  You cannot try to put yourself in someone else's shoes and imagine that they were just as Human as you are and had the same sorrows and joys and were trying to end what *they* percieved as evil.

As to your quote, if what they had experienced has evil, they are returning an 'eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth'.  How does one learn mercy if one has not seen or experienced it?

Ebor
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« Reply #147 on: February 23, 2006, 05:51:21 AM »

I try and expose them, each to their own I guess.
Really? When I see someone saying or doing stupid, sinful things, I try to weave a blanket of love and prayer to cover them so the Lord doesn't see them and judge them. Each to their own I guess.
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« Reply #148 on: February 23, 2006, 06:26:43 AM »

Really? When I see someone saying or doing stupid, sinful things, I try to weave a blanket of love and prayer to cover them so the Lord doesn't see them and judge them. Each to their own I guess.
More like a blanket of disinformation, sarcasm, and disrepute. Tongue
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« Reply #149 on: February 23, 2006, 06:32:22 AM »

 Smiley
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