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Author Topic: disputatio in utramque partem  (Read 3593 times) Average Rating: 0
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GiC
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« on: February 11, 2006, 10:56:07 PM »

As some of you may, or may not, have realized over the last week I have been arguing in utramque partem, as the great rhetorician Marcus Tullius Cicero advises all to do in his great work 'The Orator.' However, I offer no apologies for the posistions I took, for though they were not my own they certainly diserved to be heard, as does every side of every issue.

To those who responded with reason and argument, I thank you for the challenge. But to the use of emotion and pasion against arguments of reason I quote Cicero, 'He only employs his passion who can make no use of his reason.'

I invite others to do as I did, look at both sides of every issue, question that which you hold most dear, and argue with equal vehemence in utramque partem.

'No one can speak well, unless he thoroughly understands his subject.'
--Marcus Tullius Cicero
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2006, 10:57:19 PM »

Yeah, what he said, but more importantly I just got that patch of tinfoil on my roof fixed, they can't get me now.
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2006, 11:09:17 PM »

I have actually done this before, too. It was very enlightening. Also, it is quite interesting to see, as you pointed out, those who actually take the time to respond logically to such arguements. Those are the people I really like having here on the forum; they are the ones who are going to make the impact. Thankfully, I have a gift of being able to run arguements, counter-arguements, counter-counter-arguements, and so forth, mentally, but it is still no substitute for peer criticism. Every side must be tackled, every option considered, something I hope to see more of. For, if we cannot justify what we believe, why do we believe it?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2006, 11:10:38 PM by Bizzlebin » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2006, 11:41:47 PM »

It is a handy exercise to go through, not only to give voice to arguments and study your normal opposition, but also as a method to critiquing your own style and methodology while you (back in normal mode) attack your about-face positions.
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« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2006, 07:36:02 AM »

I'm actually surprised a bit that really only like one or two people caught your switch there, GiC.  For the most part, people didn't seem to notice, which was strange - especially on the issue regarding the relationship with the catholics; you are normally fairly anti-Latin, and recently you had been advocating a "two-lung" position...
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 08:29:29 AM »

I invite others to do as I did, look at both sides of every issue, question that which you hold most dear, and argue with equal vehemence in utramque partem.

There's no need to. I'm always correct.
I don't see why everyone doesn't just agree with me now, and avoid the rush.
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2006, 08:31:33 AM »

Your being always right proves that I am always right, since I have always been always right and I know you have always been right.... right?
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2006, 08:50:44 AM »

Your being always right proves that I am always right, since I have always been always right and I know you have always been right.... right?
You're just messing with my head now, aren't you?
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« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2006, 12:14:01 PM »

lol...I have to admit I was on the verge of passion myself. Tongue

God bless.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2006, 12:42:39 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2006, 12:17:23 PM »

lol...I have to admit I was on the verge of passion myself. Tongue

God bless.

Well, at least you held out for the week, that speaks well of you. Thanks for the good debate.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2006, 12:17:42 PM by greekischristian » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2006, 12:42:53 PM »

So what about the other arguments you made, like "gnostic dualism?"
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2006, 01:32:06 PM »

So what about the other arguments you made, like "gnostic dualism?"

Well, I dont think I'd go quite that far, but I do disagree with the term 'creatio ex nihilo' because it implies that something (i.e. nothingness) exists outside of God, rather I would submit that nothingness is encompassed by God, thus 'creatio ex deo,' God created the universe from Himself, even nothingness was created from God.
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2006, 02:52:23 PM »

Well, I dont think I'd go quite that far, but I do disagree with the term 'creatio ex nihilo' because it implies that something (i.e. nothingness) exists outside of God, rather I would submit that nothingness is encompassed by God, thus 'creatio ex deo,' God created the universe from Himself, even nothingness was created from God.

Okay...so I guess I didn't waste time writing this:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8179.0

That's if you're interested Wink

God bless.

Mina

PS  Don't mind the last quote, although I found it rather interesting at the time...lol
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2006, 03:34:12 PM »

GiC,

I would also like to point out the bizarre behavior I observed during this experiment:

-On multiple issues you were not alone in arguing your position. Your opposition would only target you and your position, never even mentioning the others on your 'side', betraying their intentions as people who will not listen to any argument you make, only reacting furiously.

In effect, you could find some of those posters on fire, and tell them how to 'stop, drop, and roll'. These people would argue with you that this was unneeded and incorrect, even as the flames burn off their hair and skin...

-I was especially entertained at how one of the people you were agreeing with for this experiment (we'll just call him Kallikantzaros777 to preserve his anonymity  Wink) persisting in arguing with you even though you were temporarily supporting his positions.

You even tried to give KKZ777 supporting data, yet his inability to argue logically hampered his potential of using this data for his profit.
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« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2006, 05:14:44 PM »

-I was especially entertained at how one of the people you were agreeing with for this experiment (we'll just call him Kallikantzaros777 to preserve his anonymity  Wink) persisting in arguing with you even though you were temporarily supporting his positions.

You even tried to give KKZ777 supporting data, yet his inability to argue logically hampered his potential of using this data for his profit.

I would even like to point out that I, an opponent of the position of the above-mentioned Kallikantzaros, did knowingly and willingly provide for him the GiC blueprint to making an effective argument on the point, which was not only disregarded, but - unfortunately like a drunk 17-year old behind the wheel of a ferrari - was wrecked beyond recognition and repair.
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2006, 01:02:42 AM »

Quote
you are normally fairly anti-Latin, and recently you had been advocating a "two-lung" position...

To be quite honest, I found the position articulated by GIC regarding the Catholic Church not far apart from the view usually attributed to the Ecumenical Patriarch. Of course, I've read the EP himself say some things (e.g., the Georgetown speech) that show the traditionalist critiques of him to be generalizations and exaggerations, but nonetheless the EP over the last couple generations has been certainly much more willing to compromise than most other Orthodox. On that point at least, I figured maybe GIC was just trying to be consistent and follow his Patriarch's lead... since he does seem to think Pat. Bartholomew (or leastwise the EP) the greatest thing since sliced bread. I might also say that it was only a week prior to that that someone was saying that all the issues had been resolved, and there is also the theory floating around that the schisms in Orthodoxy can only be healed by a Council. If he hadn't been so outrageous regarding the HIV/AIDS comment, I probably never would have thought twice about most of the stuff he was saying. Wink
« Last Edit: February 13, 2006, 01:04:38 AM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2006, 01:16:12 AM »

To be quite honest, I found the position articulated by GIC regarding the Catholic Church not far apart from the view usually attributed to the Ecumenical Patriarch. Of course, I've read the EP himself say some things (e.g., the Georgetown speech) that show the traditionalist critiques of him to be generalizations and exaggerations, but nonetheless the EP over the last couple generations has been certainly much more willing to compromise than most other Orthodox. On that point at least, I figured maybe GIC was just trying to be consistent and follow his Patriarch's lead... since he does seem to think Pat. Bartholomew (or leastwise the EP) the greatest thing since sliced bread. I might also say that it was only a week prior to that that someone was saying that all the issues had been resolved, and there is also the theory floating around that the schisms in Orthodoxy can only be healed by a Council. If he hadn't been so outrageous regarding the HIV/AIDS comment, I probably never would have thought twice about most of the stuff he was saying. Wink

Yeah, I realized that HIV/AIDS comment was going a bit too far only about the next day, it didn't really fit into the persona I was putting forth. As far as Rome, I am already quite liberal, I support the lifting of the anathemas, I believe we have more in common than separating us, and I believe that reunion is both possible and desirable with the right Pope and Patriarch (Though I dont think the Current Pope is the right one). But considering Rome Orthodox prior to this reunion, and advocating the 'two-lung' posistion in theory along with practice is probably going a bit too far.
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2006, 01:12:49 AM »

Quote
unfortunately like a drunk 17-year old behind the wheel of a ferrari - was wrecked beyond recognition and repair.

This may sound crazy but this is the GREATEST thing i've read to date on this forum!  GO CLEVELAND!!!! 
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