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Author Topic: Opinion: New HPV Vaccine to Prevent Cervical Cancer  (Read 4218 times) Average Rating: 0
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Matthew777
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« on: February 06, 2006, 11:06:54 PM »

  Graduates of the public school system remember the lies our teachers fed us in class. Though it prepared us for where we are today, our education sometimes compromised truth to maintain the status quo.
   Abe Lincoln brought the Union to war for other reasons besides slavery. The patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald, did not assassinate JFK. ‘Safe sex’, in this day and age, isn’t really that safe after all. The great falsehood of health class is unique in that it may prove deadly.
   Human papillomavirus (HPV) is the most common STD in America. The U.S. Department of Health & Human Services warns that roughly 80 percent of sexually active men and women will contract the virus at some point in their lives.
   With 20 million Americans already infected with HPV, it’s high time for sex ed. instructors to fess up that condoms don’t protect against its transmission.
   Planned Parenthood accuses anyone who recognizes this fact as having a right-wing ideology. But I’m as liberal as they come and I know when we’ve been deceived.
   HPV is well-known by health professionals as the leading cause of cervical cancer. It’s bad enough that this virus causes genital warts, let alone death in thousands of women.
   According to The National Cancer Institute, 60 to 70 percent of cervical cancer cases worldwide are caused by either HPV16 or HPV18 with virtually all remaining cases attributable to other strains of HPV.
   The American Cancer Society estimated for 2004 that about 10,520 women developed cervical cancer with about 3,900 women dying from this disease. There is a ray of hope, however, that the establishment would prefer to conceal.
   Given that HPV is spread through skin-to-skin contact, whether or not a condom is worn, several vaccines have been developed. According to Medical News Today, clinical trials have shown Merck’s Girasol to be 100 percent effective against the two strains most responsible for cervical cancer.
   To curb the HPV epidemic, a vaccine must be administered before most people are sexually active. This poses a threat to social conservatives who believe that early vaccination will encourage teenage sex.
  Brigdet Maher of the Family Research Council opposes HPV vaccination in fear that it will sabotage the abstinence-only agenda.
   “Abstinence is the best way to prevent HPV, giving the HPV vaccine to young women could be potentially harmful, because they may see it as a license to engage in premarital sex,” Maher said.   
   Would we rather see thousands of women die than allow teenagers to discover their sexuality? 
   Blinding ourselves to medical breakthroughs will not prove helpful. Neither will permitting moral extremists to bully us around save anyone. We need to work toward finally making the myth of ‘safe sex’ a reality.

Peace.
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2006, 04:35:22 AM »

Would we rather see thousands of women die than allow teenagers to discover their sexuality?

Quite the false dichotomy. There may very well be a cure for HPV, but what about the other STDs? Passing out the vaccine will encourage non-marital sex, and although it will prevent HPV (a good thing, to be sure), it will not prevent the ocean of other diseases, such as HIV, which may in the end lead to a higher mortality rate, and a more sexually active society. That's a dangerous mix.
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2006, 12:03:36 PM »

STD's are curses of God against sinners, we have no right to play God ourselves and try to undermine them, if one gets a terminal illness from being sexually active they are reaping the fruits of their labours and just rewards.
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2006, 10:31:56 PM »

Would we rather see thousands of women die than allow teenagers to discover their sexuality?¦nbsp;
¦nbsp; ¦nbsp;

Peace.
What a lame / loaded question !!!!  The answer to both is obviouslyNO!!  Matthew, often times it seems as if you are trying to modernize Orthodoxy.You spend a lot of time quoting this person and that person to support your
 "opinions" , but rarely if ever do you quote the Fathers of the Church .
 Personally , as the parent a young girl and an Orthodox Christian, I find it offensive and blasphemous that you would
advocate premarital
sex with unwed , teenaged,virgins.Perhaps you should spend more time reading the Fathers writings . Or do you find their writings to be " morally extreme?
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2006, 10:45:51 PM »

Quote
STD's are curses of God against sinners, we have no right to play God ourselves and try to undermine them, if one gets a terminal illness from being sexually active they are reaping the fruits of their labours and just rewards.

And you and Cleveland call me to be charitable?
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2006, 12:38:45 AM »

STD's are curses of God against sinners, we have no right to play God ourselves and try to undermine them, if one gets a terminal illness from being sexually active they are reaping the fruits of their labours and just rewards.

I don't know if I would use the language of "curses of God" in this case; they are consequences that God permits to exist, but I wouldn't say that He wills them to happen to people, just as death wasn't a "curse of God" in Genesis, but rather an effect of eating from the Tree of Knowledge that God kindly pointed out.
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2006, 12:42:08 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8146.msg106539#msg106539 date=1139366751]
And you and Cleveland call me to be charitable?   [/quote]

Apples and oranges, my friend.  His calling STD's "curses of God" may be distasteful (ahem, very distasteful), but it's not like he went and attacked another member as being "not greek" (a claim which he accepts if it is an ethnic descriptor, but won't if it is meant otherwise) and a directive that he go and reconcile with the Pope (someome with whom he was never in communion with to begin, so it wouldn't really be "reconciliation").
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2006, 12:59:50 AM »

I was under the impression that GIC was being facetious, taking into consideration his involvement in other discussions presently going on...  trying to stir the pot, as it were. *shrugs* Smiley 
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2006, 01:07:46 AM »

I was under the impression that GIC was being facetious, taking into consideration his involvement in other discussions presently going on...  trying to stir the pot, as it were. *shrugs* Smiley   

I live with the guy in the dorm here, and I can't even figure out his motivations...
And his posts over the last 2-3 days have been strange... doesn't seem like him... maybe it's just me?
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2006, 01:14:45 AM »

Quote
Apples and oranges, my friend.  His calling STD's "curses of God" may be distasteful (ahem, very distasteful), but it's not like he went and attacked another member as being "not greek" (a claim which he accepts if it is an ethnic descriptor, but won't if it is meant otherwise) and a directive that he go and reconcile with the Pope (someome with whom he was never in communion with to begin, so it wouldn't really be "reconciliation").

Attacked as being not Greek - that part I meant as a compliment.  

If GiC takes his own logic to its conclusion, protestants most turn back to Rome rather than to Orthodoxy.  Hence he should himself turn back to Rome if be believes people (except apparently those who are Greek wanna bes) shouldn't convert to Orthodoxy.  

But this is also typical of your inability to put things in perspective.  People tell GiC he should follow his own advice and not be a hypocrite and you immediantly whine that they are uncharitable.  Yet he says STDs are God's wrath on sinners, tells people to not convert to Orthodoxy because Rome is their cannonical church, seems to find no moral objection to mass murder (as long as the perpetrators are wearing a uniform).... honestly if you and GiC and others here are representative of HCHC I'm more worried about the GOA than ever...
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2006, 01:54:23 AM »

{Aside - skip this section if you want to talk about the article above}
Your posts seem to range off the main topic, but I'll address it with the understanding that it is an aside.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8146.msg106555#msg106555 date=1139375685]
But this is also typical of your inability to put things in perspective. � People tell GiC he should follow his own advice and not be a hypocrite and you immediantly whine that they are uncharitable. � Yet he says STDs are God's wrath on sinners, tells people to not convert to Orthodoxy because Rome is their cannonical church, seems to find no moral objection to mass murder (as long as the perpetrators are wearing a uniform).... honestly if you and GiC and others here are representative of HCHC I'm more worried about the GOA than ever...  [/quote]

Actually, this whole discussion is a good example of your trolling GiC's posts, and rather than refuting them with evidence, attacking him instead; like I've said quite a few times on here, personal attacks don't phase him, they fuel him, becuase they becauseat the poster cannot refute him with logic; and furthermore, personal attacks normally open weak-points on the poster.

You can be concerned all you want to about the GOA; it is an Orthodox jurisdiction, with Orthodox folk and an Orthodox seminary, despite your claims otherwise.  We teach prayer, we build monasteries, we try and help our people grow closer to God.  We may not be perfect, but we're trying.  I'd like to hear your reasons for why you think I am an indicator of a bad trend or whatnot in the GOA - but go start a thread dedicated to critiquing the GOA if you'd like to do that, don't hijack other threads to serve your purpose.  I am not opposed to discussing critically the issues that you have brought up, but I have seen little in your posts that indicates that you are willing to provide references, quotes, testimonials, or any of the other requisite elements to a dispassionate debate; therefore I see future discussions being steered towards emotionalism and ad-hominems.  But I am willing to discuss whatever you want, just start a thread for it and I'm in; and I don't sugar-coat, I won't lie about how things are.  But I will highlight the positives with the negatives, and I will refuse to outright bash the Holy Orthodox Church.

Now: you misquote him in your statement above; he never uses "wrath" in his statement, and curses do not neccessarily necessarily  Secondly, I have taken a position directly opposite his in this matter, so I don't see how your implication that together we spell doom for the GOA comes into play in this discussion; if it is a carry-over from another discussion, then I renew my earlier suggestion to start a new thread to discuss the GOA, Holy Cross, or whatever seems to be bothering you right now.

As for my ability to put things into perspective: you are accusing me of supporting him in positions that I haven't neccessarily necessarily neccessarily necessarilyd in doing so are erroneously taking my statements or silence to be assent to his position; what you are failing to see is that I am allowing him to continue in rational debate to take his position without personal attack; and, as I have noted before, I make much of my content critiques to his face, which is quite helpful (reading body language, tone of voice, etc. helps me a lot in conversation, and it would help you too; your tone of writing is very angry and upset - a condition I hope you are not in, while at the moment I am not only quite calm but also not angry in the slightest - a condition I hope that I am portraying in my writing) - thus not needing to make content critiques here on the board.  I am sorry if that is confusing.

{/ASIDE}

{PERTINENET CONTENT}

I would like to hear Matthew's explanation of his phrase "exploring their sexuality."  It seems promoting or permitting promiscuity to end the perpetuation of death is not only counter-productive, but also contra-natural.  Death isn't a punishment for sin, it is the natural course or result; as I stated earlier, God wasn't punishing mankind when Eve and Adam ate of the fruit, he merely pointed out the inevitable outcome of their decision to "know" both Good and Evil - that they would begin to die (as the Hebrew states it).  I think it is a fallacious argument to state that it is better to allow them the possibility of sin rather than instructing them to follow the directions of God; we need to instruct the youth in the Way of Life, inform them of the consequences that arise from deviating from that way, and be there to help them in times of trouble.  But condom distribution, mandatory vaccination for an STD, I don't think they're the way to go.
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2006, 04:36:27 PM »

STD's are curses of God against sinners, we have no right to play God ourselves and try to undermine them, if one gets a terminal illness from being sexually active they are reaping the fruits of their labours and just rewards.

Why has a child born with AIDS been 'cursed' by God? Think about it.
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2006, 04:39:18 PM »

Matthew, often times it seems as if you are trying to modernize Orthodoxy.

No, not at all. I just so happen to live in a secular society and write for a public college's newspaper. Though I may believe in Orthodox tradition and doctrine, I cannot expect to force America to follow my own beliefs.
Realistically, we must accept that many citizens are going to have pre-marital sex regardless of the teachings of our particular church and therefore, HPV vaccination is necessary.
Do we or do we not live under a Constitution which promises to protect the common well-being?
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2006, 04:47:24 PM »

Why has a child born with AIDS been 'cursed' by God? Think about it.

Sigh.... AIDS, when passed from mother to child in utero, is not "sexually transmitted"... stay on topic man.
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2006, 05:00:01 PM »

Why has a child born with AIDS been 'cursed' by God? Think about it.

AIDS isn't technically a STD.
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2006, 06:34:53 PM »

Sigh.... AIDS, when passed from mother to child in utero, is not "sexually transmitted"... stay on topic man.

It is absurd to think that STD's are a punishment from God for pre-marital sex, given how negatively they can impact those who did not have sex in the first place. A few chance mutations will create a new virus, not the wrath of God.
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2006, 06:58:55 PM »

While I don't think they're an overt punishment from the Maker, they are indeed permitted to exist by Him, and possibly serve a function within the scheme of things - we're just not omniscient enough to know now, are we?
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2006, 01:56:06 AM »

While I don't think they're an overt punishment from the Maker, they are indeed permitted to exist by Him, and possibly serve a function within the scheme of things - we're just not omniscient enough to know now, are we?

For some reason or another, we live in a universe where God made the evolution of infectious disease possible. Does this necessary mean that God specifically intended for HPV to be a punishment for pre-marital sex? This is not something we are able to know. But since I believe in God's forgiveness and love, that is something that I'd like to doubt.
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2006, 03:54:30 AM »

Quote
For some reason or another, we live in a universe where God made the evolution of infectious disease possible. Does this necessary mean that God specifically intended for HPV to be a punishment for pre-marital sex? This is not something we are able to know. But since I believe in God's forgiveness and love, that is something that I'd like to doubt.

How 'bout don't whore around before marriage = no infectious diseases? Does that sound like an easy solution or what? I'm sure the 'left' and other 'weirdos' may object to this...¦nbsp; Roll Eyes

Nacho, "left and other weirdos" is close to violating the "no American politics" rule. Please refrain from those type of characterizations. Also, we have a new political section you can sign up for. Thanks. SS99
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2006, 04:21:40 AM »

As a practical matter, a secular society must make an HPV vaccine available in order to curb the spread of this disease. This will end up costing the state less money than the medical bills that result from having cervical cancer.
We don't live in a theocracy, we must be pragmatic in public policy.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2006, 06:41:33 AM »

How 'bout don't whore around before marriage = no infectious diseases? Does that sound like an easy solution or what?
Absolutely....and so enlightened.....and so realistic.....
Perhaps you personally may not have a chance of committing fornication in a Bankok brothel with a fistfull of hundred dollar bills, but the reality is that many young people are not always going to be chaste. And if you think the threat of disease is going to make adolescents stop and think before they leap, just wait until your kids are teenagers.
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2006, 07:08:44 AM »

For some reason or another, we live in a universe where God made the evolution of infectious disease possible.

We would not worry about disease if it weren't for the Fall, so, if you factor in the original state of humanity to your liitle equation, then it doesn't equal a punishment after all  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 07:20:01 AM »

We would not worry about disease if it weren't for the Fall, so, if you factor in the original state of humanity to your liitle equation, then it doesn't equal a punishment after all  Wink
No, I quite like the "Divine wrath" view that God deliberately made viruses to cause excruciating pain and death because He's a sadistic tryant who takes pleasure in jumping up and down on his creation if it happens to step out of line (as opposed to the heretical views of "leftists and other wierdos" who seem to think that viruses and bacteria are not harbingers of Divine Wrath, but rather single cells or bundles of genetic materiel in a protein coat which seek to replicate themselves) These heretics hold that bad things can happen to good people, which of course, we all know is impossible, because Life is so just to everyone.........oh, and here's where the eyes roll to prove how superior my view is: Roll Eyes
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2006, 07:25:08 AM »

No, I quite like the "Divine wrath" view that God deliberately made viruses to cause excruciating pain and death because He's a sadistic tryant who takes pleasure in jumping up and down on his creation if it happens to step out of line (as opposed to the heretical views of "leftists and other wierdos")....oh, and here's where the eyes roll to prove how superior my view is: Roll Eyes

How very... Western  Shocked  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 12:02:22 PM »

Quote
To curb the HPV epidemic, a vaccine must be administered before most people are sexually active. This poses a threat to social conservatives who believe that early vaccination will encourage teenage sex.
  Brigdet Maher of the Family Research Council opposes HPV vaccination in fear that it will sabotage the abstinence-only agenda.
   “Abstinence is the best way to prevent HPV, giving the HPV vaccine to young women could be potentially harmful, because they may see it as a license to engage in premarital sex,” Maher said.   

This viewpoint is obscene. What of women who remain chaste until marriage, only to be infected with HPV due to their husbands' pre- or extra-marital relations? What of rape victims? Trying to prevent the use of life-saving medical techniques that harm no one, because it happens to remove one possible negative consequence of fornication, is not just wrong-headed, it's downright evil.
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2006, 12:06:17 PM »

Quote
While I don't think they're an overt punishment from the Maker, they are indeed permitted to exist by Him, and possibly serve a function within the scheme of things - we're just not omniscient enough to know now, are we?

This reasoning was used to try to prevent the use of vaccination, and to prevent painkillers from being used in childbirth, and the reasoning is just as wrong now as it was then. Unless you're going to say the Holy Unmercenaries were thwarting the will of God by healing disease?
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2006, 12:31:58 PM »

I doubt highly that my reasoning was used for such purposes yBeayf.... maybe GiC's line about it being a punishment from God was (in fact we know it was).
My disagreement is only with Matthew's line that the kids should be allowed to explore their sexuality; I think the vaccene needs to be available for just the reasons you describe, not to promote some sort of free-sex potentiality without consequences.
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2006, 01:35:27 PM »

We would not worry about disease if it weren't for the Fall, so, if you factor in the original state of humanity to your liitle equation, then it doesn't equal a punishment after all¦nbsp; Wink

I have no need for bronze age mythology. We need to improve the world we live in now instead of nostaligiazing over a fictitious past.
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2006, 01:41:38 PM »

{ASIDE - Not really relevant to the Current discussion - so skip}

I have no need for bronze age mythology. We need to improve the world we live in now instead of nostaligiazing over a fictitious past.

You're calling the pre-fall state a "fictitious past?"  The pre-fall existence of Man is integral to our understanding of who we are and How God Loves us.  If you would like to speculate on this point, I challenge you to show proof!

Now, I don't agree with Meekle's application; the potentiality for the evolution of disease is inherent in the pre-fall design.  But before the fall it was not happening, and after the fall the introduction of corruption/corruptibility of the flesh opened the floodgates to allow this to happen.  But your response in calling the "pre-fall" state "bronze age mythology" is directly against Orthodox (EO or OO) belief, and certainly requires a bit of evidence to support it.
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2006, 01:47:25 PM »

.
If you would like to speculate on this point, I challenge you to show proof!

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex3

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html#retroviruses

.
Now, I don't agree with Meekle's application; the potentiality for the evolution of disease is inherent in the pre-fall design. 

Infectious disease existed for millions of years before the dawn of humankind.
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2006, 01:52:44 PM »

*Sigh* you don't get it, do you...

ahem.  Your two links do not prove that there wasn't a pre-fall existence for humanity, in fact they don't even disprove the "Garden of Eden."  In fact, nothing above proves that there were infectious diseases in humankind before the fall.  Infectious diseases in the Animal Kingdom outside of Humanity don't prove a thing, other than they existed.
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2006, 01:57:26 PM »

*Sigh* you don't get it, do you...

ahem.  Your two links do not prove that there wasn't a pre-fall existence for humanity, in fact they don't even disprove the "Garden of Eden."  In fact, nothing above proves that there were infectious diseases in humankind before the fall.  Infectious diseases in the Animal Kingdom outside of Humanity don't prove a thing, other than they existed.

Where can the line be drawn between anatomically modern Homo sapiens and our closest direct ancestor? At what point did a once disease-prone species become free of disease only to become disease-prone again?
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2006, 02:02:07 PM »

Maybe when we were granted consciousness, aspirations towards the abstract, longing for God... you know, qualities not present in our nearest direct ancestors.  Are you implying that 100% of the first 3-5 chapters of Genesis is to be taken allegorically, as if no truth exists? 

I'm not going to state that there definitely was an orchard in the midst of a steppe (in hebrew Eden) that two humans were laid into; but I will state that at some point God set humanity apart, and humanity existed without sin - and thus not subject to death at that point. 
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2006, 02:23:00 PM »

Are you implying that 100% of the first 3-5 chapters of Genesis is to be taken allegorically, as if no truth exists? 

I would say that there is an essence of spiritual truth within the allegorical narrative.

I will state that at some point God set humanity apart, and humanity existed without sin - and thus not subject to death at that point. 

What purpose is there in believing that in some point, humanity existed without death and sin? The Irenaean theodicy does not require a pre-fall paradise in order to counterbalance the pain and suffering of this present existence.
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2006, 02:40:46 PM »

What purpose is there in believing that in some point, humanity existed without death and sin? The Irenaean theodicy does not require a pre-fall paradise in order to counterbalance the pain and suffering of this present existence.   

You know what... we could talk just about this point for days; but if you - who has obviously spent time studying the scripture and the fathers - do not see why the Orthodox Belief that humanity was created in a state without sin an death is important, I won't be able to convince you on an internet forum.  Prayer and fasting, my friend, that will help.
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2006, 04:27:31 PM »

do not see why the Orthodox Belief that humanity was created in a state without sin an death is important

It may or may not be important. But is it actually true?
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2006, 05:38:48 PM »

I have no need for bronze age mythology.
That's okay, Matthew...many of us have no use for 19th century mythology either.  Wink
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2006, 06:06:44 PM »

That's okay, Matthew...many of us have no use for 19th century mythology either.¦nbsp; Wink

Fiction can be fun but I prefer a little thing called 'evidence'.

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
The Scientific Case for Common Descent
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
A Response to Ashby Camp's "Critique"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/camp.html

Peace.
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2006, 06:29:44 PM »

Just to be "fair and balanced"...
Here's  Ashby Camp's first critique that Matthew mentioned:
http://trueorigins.org/theobald1a.asp

And here's his response to the response to this critique:
http://www.trueorigin.org/ca_ac_01.asp

(Just to show that I can throw links up there too. Smiley   And, no, I do not insist the earth is less than 10,000 years old  Tongue)
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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2006, 06:44:37 PM »

Ack, another debate on this subject, lol. I enjoy reading some people that get involved though, so have fun people Smiley Anyway, for my own small contribution, I'll post a quote. While I wouldn't go so far as he does in the second sentence below, I like what Jaroslav Pelikan said on this subject...

Quote
"In the beginning God" are the opening words of the Bible. Yet in a real sense it can be said that the story of the Bible does not begin with Adam and Eve but with Abraham and Sarah. For the Bible is not intended to be a universal history of the whole human race, much less a cosmogony that accounts for the structure and laws of the entire physical and biological universe. How could even a minimal cosmogony, one that was baed on the sophisticated and well-informed astronomy of the ancient Near East, be content to throw in the phrase "and the stars" as an explanation for what a later chapter of Genesis itself acknowledges as stars without number, and to leave it at that? Rather, the Bible consistently directs our attention away from cosmogony, be it mythological or scientific, to the special relation between God and the human race... - Jaroslav Pelikan, Whose Bible Is It? A Short History of the Scriptures, (Penguin Books, 2005), p. 29

Anyway, a post Matthew made about allegory/cosmology brought this to mind, so I thought I'd post it.
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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2006, 06:48:23 PM »

Just to be "fair and balanced"...
Here's¦nbsp; Ashby Camp's first critique that Matthew mentioned:
http://trueorigins.org/theobald1a.asp
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution
A Response to Ashby Camp's "Critique"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/camp.html

'True Origin' thoroughly demonstrates why America is behind the rest of the world in science.  Wink
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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2006, 06:52:59 PM »

'True Origin' thoroughly demonstrates why America is behind the rest of the world in science.¦nbsp; Wink
Make no mistake--I by no means endorse everything on Trueorigins (or Talkorigins for that matter.) I was linking to the other half of the arguement so that other readers, if so inclined. can read it all and decide for themselves.
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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2006, 07:32:44 PM »

I was linking to the other half of the arguement so that other readers, if so inclined. can read it

Informal logical fallacies do not count as arguments.
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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2006, 09:47:58 PM »

Informal logical fallacies do not count as arguments.
Indeed.  Cool
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